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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #201  
Old 02-18-2013, 6:18 PM
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Originally Posted by safewaysecurity View Post
If I was on a jury I would not convict the guy. All gun owners need to pledge to nullofy all unconstitutional prosecutions.
QFT
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  #202  
Old 02-18-2013, 6:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
Seat belts save lives orders of magnitude more often than armed teachers.


http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811105.pdf

That's why they make the kids wear them when they ride the school bus..


Oh, wait
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  #203  
Old 02-18-2013, 6:31 PM
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Originally Posted by five.five-six View Post
That's why they make the kids wear them when they ride the school bus..


Oh, wait
Ha ha! Good retort.
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  #204  
Old 02-18-2013, 6:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
Did you read that as an outright dismissal? Why?
You said it's a "fuzzy area... Since their suicidal". You're downplaying this part. They're murderous first and foremost. That is the light in which to analyze it primarily, I'm not as worried about their suicidal tendency.

I answered your question, please answer mine. Not being rude but the round and round isn't needed. If we don't agree, that's fine but let's settle this point of contention and be done.

Is the fact these crimes occur in sterile areas a major factor to these types of killers or not? Minor only? Other?
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  #205  
Old 02-18-2013, 6:36 PM
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Ha ha! Good retort point.
FTFY
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  #206  
Old 02-18-2013, 6:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Ready_eSeVe View Post
You said it's a "fuzzy area... Since their suicidal". You're downplaying this part. They're murderous first and foremost. That is the light in which to analyze it primarily, I'm not as worried about their suicidal tendency.
I will ask that you supply some evidence to support that contention. It's a pretty difficult thing to parse.

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Is the fact these crimes occur in sterile areas a major factor to these types of killers or not? Minor only? Other?
It's likely a factor. How dominant a factor, I'm not sure. First, it's hard to separate other target related motives; a mass killer gets more attention shooting young children than shooting mostly adults. Second, the sample size of the really significant, high body count incidents is small, which makes it hard to assess. Third, you'd have to factor in the relative prevalence of armed citizens in public places that aren't sterile zones in the same locality; for example, the McDonald's massacre in San Ysidro, for example, wouldn't necessarily be perceived much differently from other targets in the area in terms of the potential if being stopped by an armed citizen. As I said, lots of variables. But yes, I do think there's a decent chance it factors in to some degree, at least for some killers.

Here's an interesting article on the pathology:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/op...s-killers.html
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  #207  
Old 02-18-2013, 7:08 PM
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You never heard me argue for not providing exemptions to LTC holders in sterile areas, though. That's not what I was arguing.
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  #208  
Old 02-18-2013, 9:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
I disagree. I have criticized the stupid actions of a guy who is now in the news. He's not a member here as far as I know. I have disagreed with people in this and other threads, but I don't hurl invective and I don't demean. If you feel otherwise, please cite what I wrote that you interpreted as demeaning.
Oh, I'm sorry. You only demean someone who is not on here to defend himself and passing judgment on him from what is only released in the media. And of course the media doesn't lie or omit details.
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  #209  
Old 02-18-2013, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
It's likely a factor. How dominant a factor, I'm not sure.
Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
I will ask that you supply some evidence to support that contention. It's a pretty difficult thing to parse.
What contention? That they're murderous first? I would say the thousands of suicides that are suicides alone is great evidence of that. The suicidal mass murderer would be such an insignificant percentage that you can't automatically combine the two. Put another way, most suicides aren't prempted by murder let alone multiple murder and if you include serial killers and war criminals I'd say most mass murderers aren't really suicidal (don't have data just using a common sense approach here).

That's all for me, drifting off topic of the OP...
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  #210  
Old 02-19-2013, 5:42 AM
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Originally Posted by IPSICK View Post
Oh, I'm sorry. You only demean someone who is not on here to defend himself and passing judgment on him from what is only released in the media. And of course the media doesn't lie or omit details.
Your argument is overwrought. Goos fraba.
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  #211  
Old 02-19-2013, 7:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Glock31B View Post
If you have a CCW why wouldnt you carry at a school? I read your logic on a round going off and maybe hitting a child, but that being said isent it better to have protection to protect children and yourself than lay on the floor and wait for the shooter to come in and shoot away with no resistance? I work at a school (and a CCW) and I am very familiar with lock down etc. Just my opinion. And Im glad in CA if you have a CCW staff and others can carry on campus. It makes it safer.
I can legally carry, but I would be instantly fired if (when) it was made public knowledge. Reaching up to pull down a projector screen, breaking up a fight, even bumping into a kid could get it noticed and me fired.

If it were otherwise, I'd carry in a heartbeat.


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  #212  
Old 02-19-2013, 11:16 PM
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Also, as a school system employee I'm pretty sure he had no choice about consenting to search of his car in the school parking lot.
And I'm not so sure about that. He could have refused, and then would have been fired. Once they frisked him, though, he was done (provided he didn't have an LTC).

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He may have broken a "law" but I don't think he did anything wrong. I'm glad to see an educator that isn't terrified of the word "gun".
There are a hell of a lot of us. And even among the ones who aren't pro, there's a lot of "live and let live" among most of the teachers I know and work with. At a recent staff meeting we went into lockdown over shots fired in the neighborhood. One science teacher commented "what we really need is a school armory." There were a few wisecracks, but there were more nodding heads and/or thoughtful looks. I know school administrators who have RAWs, fer chrissake.

I would never carry without express permission from the school/district administration, and this guy clearly made a career-ending mistake, but you have to understand where he was probably coming from. Also, part of the reason so many of his students were probably OK with this is that a huge chunk of that neighborhood is Navy housing, and the rest is middle-class residential, with an aging (more conservative) demographic.
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  #213  
Old 02-20-2013, 3:40 AM
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Originally Posted by five.five-six View Post
That's why they make the kids wear them when they ride the school bus..


Oh, wait
California requires seat belts in school buses manufactured after 2004.

"California requires three-point seat belts on (1) school buses manufactured on and after July 1, 2005 that carry more than 16 passengers, and (2) all other school buses manufactured on and after July 1, 2004. It asks school transportation providers to first allocate seat-belt equipped school buses for elementary school students whenever possible. (Cal. Veh. Code § 27316).

State regulations require school bus passengers to (1) use the seat belts; and (2) be taught how to use them in an age-appropriate manner (Cal. Code Regs. Title 5, § 14105)"
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  #214  
Old 02-20-2013, 6:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Ready_eSeVe View Post
Fair enough.



What contention? That they're murderous first? I would say the thousands of suicides that are suicides alone is great evidence of that. The suicidal mass murderer would be such an insignificant percentage that you can't automatically combine the two. Put another way, most suicides aren't prempted by murder let alone multiple murder and if you include serial killers and war criminals I'd say most mass murderers aren't really suicidal (don't have data just using a common sense approach here).

That's all for me, drifting off topic of the OP...
Tonight on NOVA (PBS, 9pm) "Inside of Mind of a Rampage Killer." Look for the suicide component; it'll be featured prominently, along with medical evidence for that model. As far as suicides w/o murder being evidence for anything, that's apples and oranges, or at least Fujis and Braeburns.
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  #215  
Old 02-20-2013, 7:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
Tonight on NOVA (PBS, 9pm) "Inside of Mind of a Rampage Killer." Look for the suicide component; it'll be featured prominently, along with medical evidence for that model. As far as suicides w/o murder being evidence for anything, that's apples and oranges, or at least Fujis and Braeburns.
I get the impression that you're engaging in the logical fallacy of affirming the consequent. That someone is suicidal does not imply that they are murderous, and you can't use suicide statistics to determine the rate at which rampage killers will be found in the population.

While most of the relatively recent rampage killers were suicidal, not all of them were.

Regardless, someone who is in a position of having to defend themselves and/or others against such a person is not generally going to have any really workable options except, when available and possible, shooting back. That the person attacking them may be suicidal is of no consequence in that situation -- it makes no difference whatsoever. That means the tactically sound choice is clear: people in all situations should be able to carry a firearm if they so choose, and that includes teachers such as the one under discussion.
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  #216  
Old 02-21-2013, 3:32 PM
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If it is true that many such killers are also suicidal, which appears to be borne out by the available information, then it stands to reason that fear of being shot by armed citizens may not be as dominant a factor in target selection as it might be for a non-suicidal killer. Pretty simple, with no logical fallacies involved. That was my original point on the subject, several posts ago.

The teacher in San Diego broke the law. He committed a stupid, illegal act with a very unfavorable risk to benefit ratio, and he bragged about it to a bunch of 12 year olds, which indicates there was probably an ego component as well. If you think that's the kind of act that will advance the cause of shall issue, you're not seeing the situation very clearly.
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  #217  
Old 02-21-2013, 8:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
If it is true that many such killers are also suicidal, which appears to be borne out by the available information, then it stands to reason that fear of being shot by armed citizens may not be as dominant a factor in target selection as it might be for a non-suicidal killer. Pretty simple, with no logical fallacies involved. That was my original point on the subject, several posts ago.
I can't dispute that, but there is a huge difference between saying "not as dominant" and "not dominant". The fact of the matter is that, as far as we know, such killers have fairly consistently (though not completely so) chosen "soft" targets even when they proved less convenient than equivalent harder targets (the Aurora shooting is just such a case). That means that, while the fear of being shot by armed citizens may not be as dominant a factor as it would be for someone who is not suicidal, it's sufficiently dominant that it appears to figure prominently in their target selection.


Quote:
The teacher in San Diego broke the law. He committed a stupid, illegal act with a very unfavorable risk to benefit ratio, and he bragged about it to a bunch of 12 year olds, which indicates there was probably an ego component as well. If you think that's the kind of act that will advance the cause of shall issue, you're not seeing the situation very clearly.
I see the situation quite clearly. I fear it is you who may not, because you appear to be making a bunch of assumptions in your condemnation of the teacher in question, not the least of which is regarding the circumstances surrounding the reason he told the kids about his firearm. His action may not advance the cause of shall issue, but advancement of that cause was probably not his foremost concern in any event.

Unless, of course, you've come upon verified information that the teacher discussed his firearm without a preceding event, such as accidental exposure of it, giving him reason to do so. If so, please cite it.
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The real world laughs at optimism. And here's why.

I hope I end up having to donate another $1000 to CGF... However, this $500 is one I hope to not have to donate...

Last edited by kcbrown; 02-21-2013 at 8:04 PM..
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  #218  
Old 02-22-2013, 1:17 PM
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No, I have no additional info. We won't agree on some of this. The bottom line for me is that he chose to break the law.

As far as the soft target issue, I'd like to see an analysis that controls for other variables, because schools have historically been targets for issues much more personal to the murderer than that in many cases.
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  #219  
Old 02-22-2013, 2:24 PM
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Yeap, he f'd up real bad. Didn't want to accept his reality.
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  #220  
Old 02-22-2013, 2:37 PM
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Reality has a way of smacking people between the eyes when they refuse to accept it.
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  #221  
Old 02-22-2013, 3:13 PM
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No, I have no additional info. We won't agree on some of this. The bottom line for me is that he chose to break the law.
So, if the government should pass a law that immediately bans possession of semiautomatic firearms, whether in the home or not, you'll happily turn in your guns? After all, to do otherwise would mean you'd be choosing to break the law...

Some laws are just. Many are not. That you would choose to condemn a man who chose to break an unjust and almost certainly Unconstitutional law -- and a law that is Unconstitutional is no law at all, per Marbury v Madison -- speaks volumes about you. I do not dispute that he broke the law. I dispute that he should be condemned because of it.

There are some laws that are so horribly unjust and evil that we should be celebrating when someone has the balls to break them. This is one such case, even though it may not advance the cause of carry in public. I will not encourage someone to break the law, even one as unjust as this, but I will most certainly not condemn them for breaking an unjust law the way you are here.


Quote:
As far as the soft target issue, I'd like to see an analysis that controls for other variables, because schools have historically been targets for issues much more personal to the murderer than that in many cases.
It may be coincidence that schools are soft targets, and that they would have been chosen anyway by the people in question regardless of how hard they might be, or it might be that the softness figures prominently. All we know is that schools are not the only targets these rampage killers choose to hit, and an overwhelmingly common trait among them is that they are soft even relative to other quite soft targets around them.
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The real world laughs at optimism. And here's why.

I hope I end up having to donate another $1000 to CGF... However, this $500 is one I hope to not have to donate...

Last edited by kcbrown; 02-22-2013 at 4:19 PM..
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  #222  
Old 02-22-2013, 3:29 PM
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Our future?

On August 30, 2018 a shooter wounded (insert someone important) after an assassination attempt; the attempted assassination spurred a nationwide outcry. October 2018, the government ordered the surrender of all firearms, and ammunition. As has been the case in almost every nation where firearms registration has been introduced, registration proved a prelude to confiscation. Exempt from the confiscation order, however, were members of the government. A 2020 decree imposed a mandatory minimum penalty of six months in prison for possession of a firearms, even where there was no criminal intent.

The text above is an edited version of the text below. I tried to keep my edits minor to prove a point.

On August 30, 1918 Fanny Kaplan wounded Lenin during an assassination attempt; the attempted assassination spurred a nationwide reign of terror. In October 1918, the Council of People's Commissars ordered the surrender of all firearms, ammunition, and sabres. As has been the case in almost every nation where firearms registration has been introduced, registration proved a prelude to confiscation. Exempt from the confiscation order, however, were members of the Communist Party. A 1920 decree imposed a mandatory minimum penalty of six months in prison for (non-Communist) possession of a firearm, even where there was no criminal intent.
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  #223  
Old 02-22-2013, 9:21 PM
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This case is exactly why people need to be informed about the power of jury nullification. Any and every law contrary to the US Constitution is null and void. Chief Justice John Marshall in his opinion of the Marbury v. Madison case said "Certainly all those who have framed written constitutions contemplate them as forming the fundamental and paramount law of the nation, and consequently the theory of every such government must be, that an act of the legislature repugnant to the Constitution is void." People are under no moral or legal obligation to obey unconstitutional laws. If they choose to violate those laws, that's their decision. But I will never vote to convict anybody of violating any gun control laws.

"When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." That quote is from the book The Law, written in 1850 by Frederic Bastiat. This is exactly where our society is now. We're forcing people to decide between obeying unconstitutional, immoral laws that leave them defenseless or breaking those laws and being able to exercise their natural rights to self defense. Frankly, that's pathetic. When law and morality contradict -as in this case of choosing between being able to defend oneself and obeying the law - one must choose morality rather than the law. What would you Calgunners think if he successfully stopped an active shooter with the gun he was carrying illegally? Would you still say "the law is the law" and want him to be prosecuted? Or would you support him and try to get the DA to not charge him?
Here's a couple more good quotes to think about: " One has not only a legal, but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws."
And one more: "Freedom begins with an act of defiance".
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  #224  
Old 02-23-2013, 6:18 AM
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You guys are into tinfoil territory, so I'll leave you to it. Enjoy.
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  #225  
Old 02-23-2013, 9:56 AM
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As a teacher, he should have let the courts and legislature sort it out. Would I feel better carrying concealed on school grounds? Sure. But I'm not the Rosa Parks of the gun rights movement. I'm NOT going to carry until or unless it becomes legal. No way am I going to risk losing my career, losing my pension, and losing my freedom.

The question is, how can we protect our kids in the midst of a disarmament-minded legislature, largely hoplophobic colleagues, and liberal left unions? I have PE equipment in my room, in the form of an aluminum bat near my desk. It's the best I can do, so that's what I do.
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Old 02-23-2013, 8:55 PM
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I like that expression the Rosa Parks of the school gun free zone
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  #227  
Old 02-23-2013, 9:17 PM
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I like that expression the Rosa Parks of the school gun free zone
Impossible to stay away from this thread. There is no comparison between this guy in San Diego and Rosa Parks. None. To believe that there is would require someone to believe that Jim Crow and "may issue" are in some absolutely bizarro world manner similar in scope, severity, and insidious multigenerational harm. If you actually believe that, nothing I say will disabuse you of the notion.
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Old 02-23-2013, 9:26 PM
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Impossible to stay away from this thread. There is no comparison between this guy in San Diego and Rosa Parks. None. To believe that there is would require someone to believe that Jim Crow and "may issue" are in some absolutely bizarro world manner similar in scope, severity, and insidious multigenerational harm. If you actually believe that, nothing I say will disabuse you of the notion.
Wow. You believe "may issue" isn't a serious infringement of one of the most (if not the most) important rights we have? Seriously?

No wonder you regard this teacher the way you do -- you apparently don't even believe in the right as a right at all!


And I would remind you that the "may issue" regime is there precisely because it was intended to target minorities, to "keep them in their place".
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The Constitution is not "the Supreme Law of the Land, except in the face of contradicting law which has not yet been overturned by the courts". It is THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND, PERIOD. Your oath to uphold the Constitution is a joke unless you refuse to enforce unadjudicated laws you believe are Unconstitutional.

The real world laughs at optimism. And here's why.

I hope I end up having to donate another $1000 to CGF... However, this $500 is one I hope to not have to donate...

Last edited by kcbrown; 02-23-2013 at 9:29 PM..
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Old 02-23-2013, 9:28 PM
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If you actually believe that, nothing I say will disabuse you of the notion.
Then say "nothing".
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:59 AM
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Should've just kept it to himself and not tell the kids. No one should've known except him.
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Old 02-24-2013, 3:47 AM
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How messed up. A good guy trying to do a good thing.

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Old 02-24-2013, 9:45 AM
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Wow. You believe "may issue" isn't a serious infringement of one of the most (if not the most) important rights we have? Seriously?

No wonder you regard this teacher the way you do -- you apparently don't even believe in the right as a right at all!


And I would remind you that the "may issue" regime is there precisely because it was intended to target minorities, to "keep them in their place".
You have a different experiential background than I, and we appear to have no common ground. How do I know this? Your penchant for a pseudo-equivalency between Jim Crow and gun rights. Nothing will ever crumble the wall between your model and mine, and I gave up arguing for sport a while ago, so I have no substantive response to your most recent post that I'm willing to spend very much time on. You may consider that as a rhetorical victory for yourself if it floats your boat. I remain open to discussion of other components of this case, but I can't see any potential fruit that would be borne by continuing along this path.
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Old 02-24-2013, 8:00 PM
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Old bald guy
Historically gun control measures were put in place to keep people of color from owning firearms mostly pistols. Martin Luther King jr. Applied for a gun permit but as a minister/pastor was found unsuitable. I stand by the Rosa Park statement as a ground breaking act of defiance. I am entertained by your statements essentially rising above us because we don't know what you know
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Old 02-24-2013, 8:02 PM
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Some one held true to the saying I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6
If I knew where to donate to this guys legal fund I would send a check.
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Old 02-24-2013, 8:30 PM
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You guys are into tinfoil territory, so I'll leave you to it. Enjoy.
The border between historical fact and conspiracy theory lately is hard to define. A sign of the times,it seems.
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Old 02-25-2013, 4:23 PM
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Old bald guy
Historically gun control measures were put in place to keep people of color from owning firearms mostly pistols. Martin Luther King jr. Applied for a gun permit but as a minister/pastor was found unsuitable. I stand by the Rosa Park statement as a ground breaking act of defiance. I am entertained by your statements essentially rising above us because we don't know what you know
Have a wonderful day
Gee, thanks. I'm honored to be the beneficiary of your wisdom. Nothing about the history was unknown to me, but hearing from you has brought it into focus!

Really, though, your apparent lack of comprehension of what Jim Crow really entailed is even more evident with your recommitment to your flawed comparison of a teacher who exhibited a complete lack of judgment with a hero who risked her personal safety.
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Old 02-25-2013, 4:32 PM
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As a teacher, he should have let the courts and legislature sort it out. Would I feel better carrying concealed on school grounds? Sure. But I'm not the Rosa Parks of the gun rights movement. I'm NOT going to carry until or unless it becomes legal. No way am I going to risk losing my career, losing my pension, and losing my freedom.

The question is, how can we protect our kids in the midst of a disarmament-minded legislature, largely hoplophobic colleagues, and liberal left unions? I have PE equipment in my room, in the form of an aluminum bat near my desk. It's the best I can do, so that's what I do.
But you're willing to lose your life because you decide to obey unconstitutional, illegal laws that only allow people who don't give a f**k about the law to be armed in certain areas? Whose victim do you want to be: the murderer/rapist's victim or the government's victim?
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Old 02-28-2013, 4:02 PM
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What you call lack of judgement I call exercising a constitutional right. Rosa Parks wasn't making a historical stand either she was just tired and fed up from working all day long and just wanted to sit down (her words). This guy went to work armed to help in case of a massacre.
But hey, I'm glad I could bring everything into focus for you!!!






Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
Gee, thanks. I'm honored to be the beneficiary of your wisdom. Nothing about the history was unknown to me, but hearing from you has brought it into focus!

Really, though, your apparent lack of comprehension of what Jim Crow really entailed is even more evident with your recommitment to your flawed comparison of a teacher who exhibited a complete lack of judgment with a hero who risked her personal safety.
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Old 02-28-2013, 6:17 PM
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What you call lack of judgement I call exercising a constitutional right. Rosa Parks wasn't making a historical stand either she was just tired and fed up from working all day long and just wanted to sit down (her words). This guy went to work armed to help in case of a massacre.
But hey, I'm glad I could bring everything into focus for you!!!
Actually, the developing opinion is that she was part of an organized movement which wanted her to make a stand.


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Old 02-28-2013, 6:34 PM
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This country is sick, our lawmakers are sick. That teacher is a good man. The law is wrong. God save us...

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."
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