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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 02-12-2013, 8:50 PM
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Teachers should be able to carry in school if they can lawfully carry concealed and that gun-free zones do nothing but create victim rich environments for criminals and crazies intent on inflicting maximum damage.

That said, I would have much more sympathy for this teacher had he had STFU about what he was doing. Chances are had he STFU we wouldn't even be hearing about this. Not only did he not keep his mouth shut, but apparently he told a student which, if true, I find completely irresponsible. Concealed means concealed and he violated that rule.
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  #42  
Old 02-12-2013, 8:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobGR View Post
Argh, he should have just stfu. It sounds like he carried for more of a "cool factor", specifically because he told his students. Idiotic.

However, it is terribly sad when you hear a student say this: “He just said it was for protection for us. We didn't really think he'd doing anything with it, he's a good teacher."

On one hand, gotta feel for the guy, on the other, stupid move to tell everyone about it. As recent history shows, a teacher will put himself/herself in the way of a bullet, but better to put the bullet in the nutbag attacking kids. If only he had contacted Calguns and worked with the administration and union to allow a legal CCW, just like pilots have done since 9/11 with the federal flight deck officers program. Just a damn shame.
Again, this was my two son's teacher for the last 2.5 years; he was not carrying for the "cool factor". I don't know how I can express this more, his students love him, he was a guy like us, a RKBA mentality and after all this school shooting stuff, he made a decision to carry. Don't believe the hype: this is my son's current teacher and all his classmates say he did not brandish or disclose he had a firearm!
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  #43  
Old 02-12-2013, 9:00 PM
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Originally Posted by FireControlman View Post
Again, this was my two son's teacher for the last 2.5 years; he was not carrying for the "cool factor". I don't know how I can express this more, his students love him, he was a guy like us, a RKBA mentality and after all this school shooting stuff, he made a decision to carry. Don't believe the hype: this is my son's current teacher and all his classmates say he did not brandish or disclose he had a firearm!
Good to have some inside info. Still... did he have a CCW? If not, he should not have been carrying. If so, he should not have been arrested unless his CCW had language saying that it wasn't valid on a school campus.
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  #44  
Old 02-12-2013, 9:15 PM
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I think it just shows bad judgement.

He can't carry in school. Those are the rules, and his broke them.

He did not break them in a kind of civil disobediance move and tell everyone he was going to carry to protect the students regardless of what the law is (a noble but misguided idea).

He didn't even have enough sense to make sure no one knew he was carrying, so the idea that he was going to white knight the whole situation is out the window.

He is not what our movement needs. I definately would not him teaching my children.
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  #45  
Old 02-12-2013, 9:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireControlman View Post
Again, this was my two son's teacher for the last 2.5 years; he was not carrying for the "cool factor". I don't know how I can express this more, his students love him, he was a guy like us, a RKBA mentality and after all this school shooting stuff, he made a decision to carry. Don't believe the hype: this is my son's current teacher and all his classmates say he did not brandish or disclose he had a firearm!
I, too, appreciate your inside perspective.Do you know how it became known that he was carrying? That and whether or not he is/was a valid CCW permit holder are important factors in this. Obviously, there is a presumption of recklessness, even putting aside breaking of the law.
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  #46  
Old 02-12-2013, 9:42 PM
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Originally Posted by rootuser View Post
I think it just shows bad judgement.

He can't carry in school. Those are the rules, and his broke them.

He did not break them in a kind of civil disobediance move and tell everyone he was going to carry to protect the students regardless of what the law is (a noble but misguided idea).

He didn't even have enough sense to make sure no one knew he was carrying, so the idea that he was going to white knight the whole situation is out the window.

He is not what our movement needs. I definately would not him teaching my children.
Seems to be a lot of anti-gun types responding to the thread.

Do you people even hear yourselves? There was at least one person who posted in this thread that this is their child's teacher and they are great. Would you rather have the teacher be unarmed if a similar case like Sandy Hook occurred? We should all be supporting this man. I doubt he had a CCW and I don't care if he did. I can say with some great level of certainty that if I am ever on a jury I will not vote guilty for someone who is not a violent criminal or evil person who decided simply to exercise their rights. We should be fighting on the side of the teacher not against him.
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  #47  
Old 02-12-2013, 9:48 PM
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so this guy thinks kids are good at keeping secrets..hmm
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  #48  
Old 02-12-2013, 9:49 PM
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So...they ID'd the teacher...now I'm sure everyone has his address, phone number, etc. How about ID'ing the parent who called it in. They need to have their name out in the public as well.
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  #49  
Old 02-12-2013, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by safewaysecurity View Post
Seems to be a lot of anti-gun types responding to the thread.

Do you people even hear yourselves? There was at least one person who posted in this thread that this is their child's teacher and they are great. Would you rather have the teacher be unarmed if a similar case like Sandy Hook occurred? We should all be supporting this man. I doubt he had a CCW and I don't care if he did. I can say with some great level of certainty that if I am ever on a jury I will not vote guilty for someone who is not a violent criminal or evil person who decided simply to exercise their rights. We should be fighting on the side of the teacher not against him.
As an owner of many many guns I am far from anti-gun, in fact I am the exact opposite, a responsible gun owner. He may be a good teacher, as one of the posters said, and I'm not saying they should fire him, or ruin his career, I'm saying he showed an incredible lack of judgement and I wouldn't want him teaching my children.

My concern is the lack of judgement he showed, not the fact that he had a gun. He didn't do it as a protest, he didn't have the judgement enough to keep it a secret, so now, if a gunman goes to that school the first guy they are going to shoot is that guy and THEN go after the kids. Or, a potential gunman will go to another school where this guy can't be effective because everyone knows he has a gun so they steer clear.

The idea of concealed carry is several facets: Foremost, it is so you can effectively protect your person, without making yourself a target, the teacher failed here. Secondly it keeps the public calm and unthreatened if the weapon is concealed, again he failed.

I realize there are a lot of people who would break their oath as a juror and try to legislate from the jury box. In several states you solemly swear as an oath to uphold the fact of law. If you know he broke the law, if you agree with it or not, you must find the person guilty. Oaths do not mean what they used to, and there are numerous stories of jurors just ignoring the law and finding people guilty or innocent based on feelings.

Turn it around a little and imagine if it was legal for him to carry a gun but the jury and prosecutor "just didn't like it" and found him guilty of something because they chose to ignore their oath? Is that the type of jury you think our system needs?
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  #50  
Old 02-12-2013, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bill_k_lopez View Post
A perfectly good law abiding citizen who was breaking the law by bringing a gun on a school campus.
Yeah, because as we all know, the Constitution isn't the supreme law of the land, now is it?

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  #51  
Old 02-12-2013, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ll-Rafael-ll View Post
A perfectly normal, good, law abiding citizen carrying a gun to class for the protection of his students should, God forbid, a criminal try to hurt them.
Yet, the parents are demonizing the teacher as if he spawned straight from hell.
At least the kids seem to be 2nd amendment supporters, which will help this country in the future.

If a damn teacher wants to conceal carry to school, why not let the dammit? Not to mention that is hell of a lot better for two reasons.
1. It's free
2. If an insane person tries to shoot a classroom, instead of a fat-@$$ cop/guard running to the scene of the shooting after it happens, an armed teacher will be right there!
haha that's like the school i go to, fat-***** guard
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  #52  
Old 02-12-2013, 10:50 PM
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this guy is screwed, he should really have known better.
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  #53  
Old 02-12-2013, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcjr1125 View Post
this. if he had a ccw which im assuming he did, you keep it concealed. how did the students know about it/?
If he had a CCW, he would only have been fired. With a CCW you are exempt from PC 626.9.

Any teacher in CA can legally carry in school. It is only the school policy that they cannot. If they do carry and get caught, they get fired, not arrested.
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  #54  
Old 02-12-2013, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by rootuser View Post
As an owner of many many guns I am far from anti-gun, in fact I am the exact opposite, a responsible gun owner. He may be a good teacher, as one of the posters said, and I'm not saying they should fire him, or ruin his career, I'm saying he showed an incredible lack of judgement and I wouldn't want him teaching my children.

My concern is the lack of judgement he showed, not the fact that he had a gun. He didn't do it as a protest, he didn't have the judgement enough to keep it a secret, so now, if a gunman goes to that school the first guy they are going to shoot is that guy and THEN go after the kids. Or, a potential gunman will go to another school where this guy can't be effective because everyone knows he has a gun so they steer clear.

The idea of concealed carry is several facets: Foremost, it is so you can effectively protect your person, without making yourself a target, the teacher failed here. Secondly it keeps the public calm and unthreatened if the weapon is concealed, again he failed.

I realize there are a lot of people who would break their oath as a juror and try to legislate from the jury box. In several states you solemly swear as an oath to uphold the fact of law. If you know he broke the law, if you agree with it or not, you must find the person guilty. Oaths do not mean what they used to, and there are numerous stories of jurors just ignoring the law and finding people guilty or innocent based on feelings.

Turn it around a little and imagine if it was legal for him to carry a gun but the jury and prosecutor "just didn't like it" and found him guilty of something because they chose to ignore their oath? Is that the type of jury you think our system needs?
You really do need to study up on the concept of Jury Nullification and its use to fight unjust laws. The Gun Free School Zone laws are some of the most unjust laws on the books.
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  #55  
Old 02-12-2013, 11:00 PM
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I live in San Diego, and I'm a father. I have mixed feelings about this story. On the one hand, I don't believe "gun free zones" work. The evidence is strong that they do not. ...on the other hand, I don't want someone who shows such poor judgement as to illegally bring firearms concealed to a classroom full of children around MY kid. ...at the same time, I don't think I can really blame him for wanting to do so - how else can you protect yourself? Your children?

If he had done this in a "civil disobedience" sort of way by making announcements to media etc prior to doing so, I'd have publicly applauded him. If he'd have never said a word about it and really kept it concealed, none of us would ever be the wiser, and while I may not agree with his decision to do this, I'd understand it. Lord knows, I'd understand.

I'm not sure I want teachers carrying willy-nilly on school campuses. Nor do I really want my kid being locked up behind bars and patrolled by a cop every day. To my mind, the right solution is to request at least two teachers and/or administrators from every school become reserve LEOs and be granted permission upon completion of a particularly exhaustive background and psychological check in addition to the reserve LEO training, the ability to cary concealed on campus.

Perhaps, if any good comes of this case and others like it, we will at least have the chance to have a public debate on the matter.
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  #56  
Old 02-12-2013, 11:05 PM
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This is in San Diego so I highly doubt he had a CCW. He knew what he was doing was illegal and did it anyway.

While I sympathize that we don't have a CCW program for specific occupations, he broke the law and will have to deal with it accordingly.
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  #57  
Old 02-12-2013, 11:15 PM
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Without all the details, I'm holding back any judgements of guilt.

I'm hoping he had a CCW and with that and the Sandy Hook event, maybe a challenge to the unconstitutionality of GFSZ laws.

And without the CCW, now possible challenge of how CCW is issued in SD County and GFSZ.

Maybe I am too pro-gun, but this guy doesn't sound so bad especially since it seems like he was a good educator.
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  #58  
Old 02-12-2013, 11:28 PM
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Agreed.. I hope he has a CCW .. that will help him out a lot.... can this go to trial by jury? Might be hard to find a jury that will convict.
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  #59  
Old 02-12-2013, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Decoligny View Post
You really do need to study up on the concept of Jury Nullification and its use to fight unjust laws. The Gun Free School Zone laws are some of the most unjust laws on the books.
How many murderers got off in the south during the early parts of the civil rights movement because of jury nullifcation? The KKK actually COUNTED on it. You need to research and think a bit about Medgar Evers. I know EXACTLY what jury nullifcation leads to. As much as it can be used for good, it can be used for evil. The matter of fact is simply as a juror your job is to judge if some one broke the law, if you agree with it or not.

I *think* (and I admit this I do have to research), in that most states, jury nullification is intentionally left out of instructions because of studies that have shown nullification leads to hyper injustice (guilty people going free because they are sympathetic) or innocent people being found guilty because they are not "liked" by the jury.

Also, in California, where this issue took place, I know for sure that jurors are instructed to inform the judge if they believe some one is trying to decide a case based on if they agree or not with a law. This is an attempt to stop jury nullification from happening.

I cannot think of the Supreme Court ever taking up the issue in my lifetime.

P.S. I will add I don't think the teacher should be prosecuted. It serves no public good what so ever.

Last edited by rootuser; 02-13-2013 at 12:00 AM..
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  #60  
Old 02-13-2013, 12:02 AM
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This is why CA should be a shall issue state.One can only drema.
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  #61  
Old 02-13-2013, 1:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
I have heard that California teachers have a powerful union.
They'll throw this guy under the bus in a heartbeat.
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Old 02-13-2013, 1:09 AM
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Why would you show your weapon to the students?
'Cuz you probably graduated from college with a "C" average and really should have never been in education in the first place?
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  #63  
Old 02-13-2013, 1:11 AM
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They'll throw this guy under the bus in a heartbeat.
They're already doing doughnuts on his head with the bus.
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  #64  
Old 02-13-2013, 1:26 AM
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Originally Posted by rootuser View Post
As an owner of many many guns I am far from anti-gun, in fact I am the exact opposite, a responsible gun owner. He may be a good teacher, as one of the posters said, and I'm not saying they should fire him, or ruin his career, I'm saying he showed an incredible lack of judgement and I wouldn't want him teaching my children.

My concern is the lack of judgement he showed, not the fact that he had a gun. He didn't do it as a protest, he didn't have the judgement enough to keep it a secret, so now, if a gunman goes to that school the first guy they are going to shoot is that guy and THEN go after the kids. Or, a potential gunman will go to another school where this guy can't be effective because everyone knows he has a gun so they steer clear.

The idea of concealed carry is several facets: Foremost, it is so you can effectively protect your person, without making yourself a target, the teacher failed here. Secondly it keeps the public calm and unthreatened if the weapon is concealed, again he failed.

I realize there are a lot of people who would break their oath as a juror and try to legislate from the jury box. In several states you solemly swear as an oath to uphold the fact of law. If you know he broke the law, if you agree with it or not, you must find the person guilty. Oaths do not mean what they used to, and there are numerous stories of jurors just ignoring the law and finding people guilty or innocent based on feelings.

Turn it around a little and imagine if it was legal for him to carry a gun but the jury and prosecutor "just didn't like it" and found him guilty of something because they chose to ignore their oath? Is that the type of jury you think our system needs?
It is NOT illegal to find someone not guilty even if the evidence points otherwise. It's called Jury Nullification and it's been around since the founding of this country. The Jury decides the facts. The jury has the power and the right to do this. I WILL NOT convict someone because of some dumb law passed by the legislature. These laws are unconstitutional and the Constitution is the law of the land to me, not the California penal code.
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  #65  
Old 02-13-2013, 6:06 AM
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I'm not judging the guy.

For one, the media lies. A lot. I'd wager he probably kept it concealed and got busted when some bambiist teacher complained to the principal that OMG, her co-worker OWNS A GUN! Thus triggering the search of the vehicle. Considering kids are being written up for making guns out of Legos these days, I find that much more credible then a teacher discussing a felony violation of law with his students.

As to the foundation of why he's carrying, ill just say this; your odds of needing to use a gun double if a place is a "Gun Free Zone" . I know from sad experience.
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Old 02-13-2013, 6:09 AM
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Is that a Gunsite hat he's wearing?
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Old 02-13-2013, 6:16 AM
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From one of the "concerned" parents.
Quote:
Janine Lint believes it’s completely unacceptable regardless of the reason.

"I understand that there's a point where we all want to protect the kids, but I think that's up to the school board to place security at schools. I don't think it's the teacher's responsibility to play security guard," Lint said.
In other words 'hey teacher, don't protect my kids'.
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Old 02-13-2013, 6:38 AM
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...That is strongly anti-gun.

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In my experience Public employee unions will vigorously defend their members for ANYTHING... which in this case could work out for the greater good...
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Old 02-13-2013, 6:46 AM
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Originally Posted by rootuser View Post
How many murderers got off in the south during the early parts of the civil rights movement because of jury nullifcation? The KKK actually COUNTED on it. You need to research and think a bit about Medgar Evers. I know EXACTLY what jury nullifcation leads to. As much as it can be used for good, it can be used for evil. The matter of fact is simply as a juror your job is to judge if some one broke the law, if you agree with it or not.
Dude; the far left teaches people to demonize anything that stands in the way of a strong central government as racist... but there is so much more to the history of this and of the benefits of decentralized power, in general, than just the south and jim crow (plus... people on the other side could, just as easily, jump to the various problems with strong centralized states in the last century just as quickly... and bring up Gulags, Nazis, and Stalin's Great Terror.... but you'd probably think that would be nutso as the first thing to bring up.... right?).

We have juries to defend the rights of the powerless (regardless of color). The state has to convince a jury of our peers that we are guilty and need to be punished. If this guy was just bringing his gun to work to protect himself and his class I can't see why I (if I were on a jury) should have a hand in ruining his life and career. Its nonsensical. It also has nothing to do with racism.

Last edited by sl0re10; 02-13-2013 at 6:53 AM..
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Old 02-13-2013, 7:04 AM
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Originally Posted by ll-Rafael-ll View Post
A perfectly normal, good, law abiding citizen carrying a gun to class for the protection of his students should, God forbid, a criminal try to hurt them.
Yet, the parents are demonizing the teacher as if he spawned straight from hell.
At least the kids seem to be 2nd amendment supporters, which will help this country in the future.

If a damn teacher wants to conceal carry to school, why not let the dammit? Not to mention that is hell of a lot better for two reasons.
1. It's free
2. If an insane person tries to shoot a classroom, instead of a fat-@$$ cop/guard running to the scene of the shooting after it happens, an armed teacher will be right there!
he's not law abiding if what he is doing is illegal...that said, I hope he gets some good representation to minimize the damage...what he did was wrong, by definition of the current law, that's what he'll be dealing with in front of the jury

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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Teacher failed the Big IQ test.

Concealed means concealed.

And he should STFU about such stuff.

Like we say, most people talk themselves into jail [or outta a job...]
You hit the nail squarely on the head...if he was going to take that kind of a chance, he needed to STFU and tell no one...he could have probably taught there another 10 years and nobody would have been the wiser

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Originally Posted by spetsnaz View Post
something here doesnt make sense. how did everyone found out??????
apparently he told his student...mistake #1

I feel bad for the guy, he's probably looking at a loss of his job, his teaching credential, and, his right to own a firearm...that's a huge sacrifice for the minute possibility of saving his class from a deranged lunatic...odds are, him having to use his firearm would have never came into play, thus making this an even sadder story...I do take issue with the fact that they media made him out to be some "obsessive" gun owner..sigh
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Old 02-13-2013, 7:15 AM
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Originally Posted by paul0660 View Post
I would. He has a screw loose.



He wasn't just teaching eighth grade, he was one.
And THIS is why your BUTTS are in a sling! This teacher had some courage.

I have read a few posts here that border on sheeptard. You are part of the problem. Get out of the way, surrender your weapons AND your Mancards to FienBoxIlosi.

You are entitled to your opinion, but it's people like this that keep voting for shackles.
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Old 02-13-2013, 7:20 AM
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Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
...That is strongly anti-gun.
Well, a teacher's union shouldn't have any position on guns; its job is to protect teachers.

We know this guy isn't the only member of his union who owns guns.

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Originally Posted by rootuser View Post
IHe can't carry in school. Those are the rules, and his broke them.

He did not break them in a kind of civil disobediance move and tell everyone he was going to carry to protect the students regardless of what the law is (a noble but misguided idea).
No, he did it because he recognized it was the only way he could protect his students, despite what the law says.

I'm the first to insist law-abiding gun owners must remain law-abiding, but I sure am not going to make a moral judgement against this guy. But then, I imagine being perfect is a terrible burden for some of the folks around here.
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Old 02-13-2013, 7:43 AM
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he shouldn't have told his students and just carried on with his job.
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Old 02-13-2013, 7:46 AM
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'Law Abiding' only goes so far these days.

Will people in New York be criminals when they have ten rounds in a magazine instead of seven?

Will I be a criminal next year when I refuse to turn in, register or destroy magazines and firearms I've owned for years?

When the law runs amok, every man of conscience becomes a criminal.
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Old 02-13-2013, 7:47 AM
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Originally Posted by SanPedroShooter View Post
'Law Abiding' only goes so far these days.

Will people in New York be criminals when they have ten rounds in a magazine instead of seven?

Will I be a criminal next year when I refuse to turn in, register or destroy magazines and firearms I've owned for years?

When the law runs amok, every man of conscience becomes a criminal.
when laws become unlawful, it's time to revolt.
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Old 02-13-2013, 8:18 AM
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"when laws become unlawful, it's time to revolt"

There is no lawful way to bear arms outside of your home in California... That's half of the second amendment straight trampled. Our laws are already unlawful.
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Old 02-13-2013, 8:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragunov View Post
And THIS is why your BUTTS are in a sling! This teacher had some courage.

I have read a few posts here that border on sheeptard. You are part of the problem. Get out of the way, surrender your weapons AND your Mancards to FienBoxIlosi.

You are entitled to your opinion, but it's people like this that keep voting for shackles.
Go punch a cow, Tex. As someone else mentioned, if he hadn't blabbed about it, he could have done it forever.

You probably aren't aware that Texas PC §46.035 includes FAR more restrictions on legal CCW than the California codes. Perhaps you should pound sand about that as you avoid the tumbleweeds.
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Old 02-13-2013, 8:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rootuser View Post
--- I wouldn't want him teaching my children.

--- Or, a potential gunman will go to another school where this guy can't be effective because everyone knows he has a gun so they steer clear.
So in your mind you wouldn't want him teaching your children because a
potential mass murderer might avoid your children's school?

That is some fuzzy thinking.
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Old 02-13-2013, 8:27 AM
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Some of you say on here - I wouldn't want him teaching my kid. I would - I would rather a teacher that is a believer in the constitution teach my kids. I have seen for myself the destruction that teachers are doing to diminish our constitution - I have been in a class and heard it for myself - I have been called a murderer by an educator in front of 6th graders because I hunt. I would rather have a teacher that believes in 2A teaching my kids rather than telling how bad guns are.

Did he break the law? He did - is it a stupid law? I think it is. Should he have just been quiet? I think so. Nobody would have been the wiser.

In our education system today in this state - unions are good, taxes are the way to go - the govt keeps you safe and knows whats best for you - GUNS are BAD mmmkkkayy..... The list goes on. I dont know his political views and maybe he doesnt believe in the entire constitution but he obviously is a gun guy and believes in 2A.

This guy will never be able to own another gun...sad.....

Like I said I am not condoning what he did - I see why he did it though - he and his students are open game.

Like the insider on here said from experience with him - he is a great educator and his only downfall was wanting to protect himself and his students - his other downfall was making it known he was carrying.
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Old 02-13-2013, 9:35 AM
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Quote:
He's also facing charges of possession of a knife with a locking blade.
When did those become illegal?
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It was not a threat. It was an exaggerated response to an uncompromising stance. I was taught never to make a threat unless you are prepared to carry it out and I am not a fan of carrying anything. Even watching other people carrying things makes me uncomfortable. Mainly because of the possibility they may ask me to help.
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