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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

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  #1  
Old 02-11-2013, 1:32 AM
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Default Making The Shot

I have no experience whatsoever in tactical situations, but I do have 25+ years experience in making the shot when the buzzer goes off in competition situations coupled with a lot of practical hunting experience.

The question I have to ask here is, does it matter whether you feel confident that when the time comes for action that you are capable of making the shot required because you have no question in your ability to do so, or does it matter more that you have been there before?

I do not ever want to have to do this if I do not have to but I know one thing for sure, I will not be worrying about whether I can make the shot, I will only be worrying about whether it is the right time to take the shot or not!

Again, my question here is, "is it more important to know what it is to do so, or is it more important to be able to do so without question when the time arises"?

i only ask this on open forum because I know I am capable and am I ready and prepared to do this when the time arises, but doubt always clouds the situation and the last thing I want to face is the question of whether I can do what is right when the situation arises.

Thanks in advance to listening to me here. Anyone with demonstrated capability knows they are capable, the question is, can you do so "properly" when the time comes.
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Old 02-11-2013, 5:18 AM
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Impossible to know until it happens. Those of us who shoot regularly in situations like competition which force multiple positions and induce some stress will have a better chance. Those who take formal training and can afford to do so often should be just fine as well. I think the argument always comes up which is best, training or competition? Both accomplish the same thing but I think there is one guy on here that takes a million classes which must cost thousands per month. Even then it doesnt appear those skills will ever be tested and practiced which I think competition would offer for a huge cost savings. Other then that I dont see how class takers will ever get enough practice in between classes. Class after class and absorbing all those opinions doesnt in my mind make much sense. Once you understand the fundamentals its time to go apply those but jumping into another class would confuse me and create contradictions more then help me.

I have recently started switching gears and dipped my toes into IDPA and am pondering taking a formal class. At the end of the day if you can shoot under pressure this is as close as we are going to get to preparing for the real thing. If you shoot often and stay sharp on your skills then our chances increase and so long as we are faster and more accurate then the other we have an advantage. I just set up the IDPA classifer yesterday and ran it for the first time ever. I think this would be a perfect level playing ground for everyone to see where they are at. It tests every aspect involved with shooting and gun handling in a way that I think is comfortable for the class takers as well. I realize USPSA turns people off with the gear involved and the speed over accuracy aspect. I do think it is necessary to practice speed and accuracy will develop and USPSA accomplishes that for me. I scored 143 seconds first time then ran the last stage again and dropped to 123 seconds. I would imagine running the entire thing again would get me below 120.

At the end of the day its going to be about practice. Who cares what you choose but do something, especially if you have a CCW. Take classes or join competitions doesnt so much matter to me at this point but its what is done in between that counts. I to have been second guessing my abilities because of the tactical class vs competitions hence my recent switch to IDPA and opening my mind to a class. I have to say that so far I am pleased with my switch and at the end of the day if you can shoot then its all the same. There may be some things to learn tactically but thats the easy part vs the ability to shoot well.

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Old 02-11-2013, 5:52 AM
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I have to think both are equally important and neither has much value without the other.

Being mentally prepared to take the shot is far more difficult to train for than being physically prepared to make the shot.

I've taken a couple of tactical training classes that may help if the time comes, but I need to take more. Economics limited me to 2 classes last year. Hopefully I can do more this year.

I've also been trying to make it to some IDPA matches because it adds a little bit of pressure to shooting and provides some practice in moving and shooting and building awareness of cover etc. And all that helps a little too.

There's a lot to be said for playing situational awareness mind games - such as when you go into a restaurant you scope out areas that give you the best view of danger areas (register) and have an escape route - or running through scenarios in your head - what would you do if there was a break-in in the middle of the night .. do you know every direction it's safe to shoot from each location in your house .. those kinds of things.

But I don't think there's anything the most of us can do to be 100% certain we will do the right thing at the right time. But I try to practice things that can help.
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Old 02-11-2013, 6:12 AM
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Indecision kills and sometimes even a bad decision is better than vacillation. Target discrimination is huge. Positively ID the threat and then let your technical skills take over.
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Old 02-11-2013, 6:34 AM
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The concept of knowing if you have the skills to make "the shot" are almost as important as knowing when you don't have the skills to make "the shot". And both are secondary to knowing if you should even take "the shot". Being emotionally able to take "the shot" should have been worked out a long time ago.

Competition encrouages you to take shots that are beyond your ability and most tactical training encrouages you to take shots that you probably shouldn't from a legal perspective. The most important tools you bring to any conflict are mental discipline and intelligence.
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Old 02-11-2013, 8:15 AM
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Thanks all, some very good stuff here.

I am pretty certain I am emotionally able, but I really hope I do not ever to find that out. Making the decision to kill when hunting is one thing, this is entirely another. The thing I have done over the years is run scenarios in my head so at least I have done some of the thinking in advance.

I know I am physically able to make any shot I decide to take so there will be no indecision on whether I have the skill. Yes, vacillation will probably be the only issue to work out, but at least I won't be vacillating on skill, just deciding what indicates that the buzzer just went off, freeing my mind for making a tactical decision.

I also agree with situational awareness being very important. Here in CA it may be even more important than shooting skill because seldom will you be armed in public, so being aware slightly in advance that you might have to take action will matter more compared to any specific skill set.

Keep it coming folks, I am not here to start a debate on competition versus training, just to get some new data points from anyone who can contribute them.

Thanks again!

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Old 02-11-2013, 8:36 AM
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Paul Howe of CSAT said some useful things on mindset:
  • "You have to be willing to take a life to save a life. If you can't do that you can't cultivate a good combat mindset".
  • "Be prepared to kill with ruthless efficiency and do it on demand".
  • "You've got to keep your tactics simple. A few set of tactics that work across a bunch of situations. If I have the drop on them in a fight I'll take the shot. If they have the drop on me I'll move to cover."
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Old 02-11-2013, 8:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffLinder View Post
The thing I have done over the years is run scenarios in my head so at least I have done some of the thinking in advance.
!
Yep, I keep escalating the scenarios trying to think of what bad guy actions would be the tipping point that forces me to draw my weapon and fire.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Hostetter View Post
The concept of knowing if you have the skills to make "the shot" are almost as important as knowing when you don't have the skills to make "the shot". And both are secondary to knowing if you should even take "the shot". Being emotionally able to take "the shot" should have been worked out a long time ago.

Competition encrouages you to take shots that are beyond your ability and most tactical training encrouages you to take shots that you probably shouldn't from a legal perspective. The most important tools you bring to any conflict are mental discipline and intelligence.
This is very true. I have been thinking about this as well. I see vids of 8 shot retreats etc and if that were done in a SD situation my guess is there will be trouble in the court.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
Target discrimination is huge. Positively ID the threat and then let your technical skills take over.
Maybe you should let the LAPD know this little secret
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Old 02-11-2013, 1:31 PM
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Maybe you should let the LAPD know this little secret
Here's what we have (Details emerge in LAPD's mistaken shooting of newspaper carriers):

Around 5am last Thursday a group of LAPD officers guarding the home of a high-ranking LAPD official unloaded a barrage of 20-30 rounds into the back of a truck suspected of belonging to Dorner. The truck was not a Nissan Titan, but a Toyota Tacoma. The color was not gray, but aqua blue. And it wasn't Dorner inside the truck, but a Hispanic woman and her mother delivering copies of the Los Angeles Times. Both women are expected to recover.

Quote:
The women were victims of 'a tragic misinterpretation' by officers working under 'incredible tension,' LAPD Chief Charlie Beck says.
A photo is quite telling:



CNN Reports: "The Los Angeles officers involved in the wounding of innocent civilians were put on paid administrative leave, police spokeswoman Rosario Herrera said Saturday. A day earlier, the LAPD had said the officers weren't put on such leave."


One of the best lessons I've learnt the past few years is simply to not shoot if you have any doubts at all as far as positively identifying the threat.

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Last edited by ramzar; 02-11-2013 at 2:10 PM.. Reason: Add photo and links + update
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Old 02-11-2013, 2:15 PM
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This thread is getting very interesting
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Old 02-11-2013, 3:23 PM
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Quote:
...does it matter whether you feel confident that when the time comes for action that you are capable of making the shot required because you have no question in your ability to do so, or does it matter more that you have been there before?
Confidence, in your skill level, that you can make the shot needed is a good thing, but it won't tell you if you can. What it does do is give you time to make a better decision.

To paraphrase the Little Bill line, "It is the willingness to kill"...not shoot in self-defense or to shoot to protect another...just the ability to take another life. It is something to consider long before the time arises, because there won't be time when it does arise.

What training does for you is it allows you to determine if the conditions present really meet the criteria that would justify your action...you really don't want to be operating out of fear.

The key is not to be surprised when it is the time for action. As a pretty decent shooter once told me, the first time he faced a start that didn't include a beeper, but turning targets (it was at Gunsite), his first reaction was surprise...before he could even start his draw
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Old 02-11-2013, 4:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Hostetter View Post

Competition encrouages you to take shots that are beyond your ability and most tactical training encrouages you to take shots that you probably shouldn't from a legal perspective. The most important tools you bring to any conflict are mental discipline and intelligence.
The Zen Master has spoken, so it is said, so it shall be written...... And you must be able to eloquently and convincingly articulate the situation in court.

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Old 02-11-2013, 5:07 PM
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All things considered...I have no doubt that you can make the shot..something you started off with this post...I think you really meant to say "take" the shot. The choice of the two words indicates your mindset. You are not sure if you can kill another human. If you are hunting animals, you know when to take the shot because you have done it before..and you know you can make the shot. In a life and death situation, it will be different because the stakes are higher. I think in war or defined conflict...it is easier because there is a "purpose" but in other situations, it is case by case and if you are prepared with the proper mindset to do what is right or necessary.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:14 AM
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Food for thought, maybe out of context. But the teaches me to willingness to act. Mindset is the greater question here..

" He who hesitates, meditates in the horizontal position" Edmund K. Parker , Founder American Kenpo
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Old 02-13-2013, 8:25 AM
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" He who hesitates, meditates in the horizontal position" Edmund K. Parker , Founder American Kenpo
I've never heard Ed called Edmund before...must be for a more authoritative tome
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Old 02-13-2013, 8:56 AM
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Demonstrated ability is a pretty easy thing to obtain through practice. The question of if a person is capable of employing that demonstrated ability under extreme stress I would say is unknown until it actually happens.

Which ones more important? I'd say demonstrated ability. What does it matter if your cool like Fonzie but are one of those people responsible for the holes in the ceiling of your local indoor range.
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Old 02-13-2013, 1:52 PM
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Originally Posted by GeoffLinder View Post
I have no experience whatsoever in tactical situations, but I do have 25+ years experience in making the shot when the buzzer goes off in competition situations coupled with a lot of practical hunting experience.

The question I have to ask here is, does it matter whether you feel confident that when the time comes for action that you are capable of making the shot required because you have no question in your ability to do so, or does it matter more that you have been there before?

I do not ever want to have to do this if I do not have to but I know one thing for sure, I will not be worrying about whether I can make the shot, I will only be worrying about whether it is the right time to take the shot or not!

Again, my question here is, "is it more important to know what it is to do so, or is it more important to be able to do so without question when the time arises"?

i only ask this on open forum because I know I am capable and am I ready and prepared to do this when the time arises, but doubt always clouds the situation and the last thing I want to face is the question of whether I can do what is right when the situation arises.

Thanks in advance to listening to me here. Anyone with demonstrated capability knows they are capable, the question is, can you do so "properly" when the time comes.
During a break in two years ago, I completely froze up and could not manipulate the slide on my 45. I kept staring at my phone in my left hand with 911 dialed on the screen ready to hit send... And then kept trying to hold the phone and chamber a round at the same time.

All the while a 260 pound, 6'2" perp broke in through a window and gained access to one of the bedrooms.

When he walked out in the living room, I recognized him and I was suddenly able to think again. The fact that I completely lost my ability to act told me that I could not take a life. Interestingly after that day I stopped CCWing. No point, I am not capable of using my firearms to take a life. Nor am I an aggressor who can run to violence and stop something like a break in.

The perp turned out to be my brothers friend grabbing a shower before prom.. (he was living with us and didn't have a key to the house.) The fact still remains that I personally know that I cant act under that kind of stress. I stopped going to IDPA matches because all the people around me act like a bunch of rambos. None of them even know if they could hold a gun in actual violence, and their confidence just reminds me of how I used to think. I think IDPA and competition is a great tool, but I have to admit that many people think they are little soldiers of fortune after a match or two.

I personally think alot of cops do not know this about themselves until they are in an actual fire fight. They can go years without even drawing their weapon, and when IT happens, they are slow to react or simply cannot react. A true warrior is someone I can respect, our soldiers who perform in combat, and then willingly walk into it again knowing how it feels to hold a gun in "actual" defense... Its something I cannot do, and I still very much respect those that do ccw, and those that stand for us (military and leos.)

But I believe (before you flame me look at that those three words.. I believe... me, I not you) that no amount of competition or training will make you able to react. Nothing can prepare you for the actual moment in time where your hands tell your brain... "we are going hot, are we really prepared to take a life today". You will not understand how true that thought process is until you have lived it. Its ****ing terrifying.

If you are preparing for such events though, I think you cannot beat competition and IDPA (and a pistol course every now and then) because they will help you to make hits on the move, and develop your senses of when to engage, and what to do when you click and it doesnt go bang. I shot a sig P220 for a year in IDPA that had jamming issues, I could tap, rack, bang so fast the RO wouldnt even hardly notice it... How does that quote go? Making hits on target with your feet on the move... Shooter, everything else is target practice.

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Old 02-13-2013, 2:54 PM
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Interesting tone with this discussion here on a topic covered many time before. I certainly like seeing such thoughtful discussion.
Seems no experts here with this discussion....Hmmmm...Telling.

But real.

The mere fact you are choosing to have and or engage in this discussion right here is doing much to help you.
Bob Hostetter said it well. Having skill and confidence is seen in its biggest value as knowing when or not to get involved. Remember, choosing to get involved can still risk the safety of possibly those around you.
I have enough experience to know I will try everything that I can to just get away, or not be involved.
Once bullets start launching from barrels all it takes is one lucky shot to rid me of all my training and time spent in development to be more confident and a better Instructor.
Yes,...... The knowledge to know when to do nothing is valuable.
It is my sense that all of us can do as much as one can to prepare for that one time we hope that never happens.
Not on the range in competition or practice. That builds confidence so you know what you can and can not do with a firearm.

To save your life or someone else s different skills are needed.

It is my sense and what I offer students that 90% of your effectiveness in a fight for your life will come from whats in your head and not in your hand and or time spent on the range. Remember, those efforts result in confidence and experience. They do not automatically transmit into you being a better gunfighter in a life and death situation.
Sure, I want you on my side going into a gun fight. Those who have spent time on the range. But I also know that is only a small part of the equation of being effective in a gun fight.
I do not know this from having been in so many, because I have been in none. I have been fortunate to have entertained an interest in the topic and have talked directly to many who have been.
So I would mimic what they have told me.... Skills are important, but having clearly defined your willingness to defend your life or a loved ones at any cost is the more important aspect.
This means more than just accepting that you are willing to do that. It means taking the time to see your yourself in any fight for your life. See yourself being effective in this fight in your mind. You engage and the attacker responds to your shots. He is down. See yourself acting responsibly along with maintaining an awareness of your immediate area. See yourself scanning/looking for additional threats. Remove that weapon from control of the attacker if safe to do so, after all you do not want him to continue the fight. See your self when you know you are in control of that situation calling 911. Be sure of what you will tell dispatch. Give the basic info you need to. More importantly to get that call completed and the phone down on the ground if you can but still connected. You do not want to be distracted by the 911 operator. Better to have the phone on and them hearing you tell that subject "stay on the ground" "stop trying to kill me" or what YOU choose to say.
You see, the beauty of our minds is how we can engage in thought to help equip ourselves with a series of choices that we can think of while comfortable and safe.
Why in the world would you wait for that event to happen and expect to make your best choices?
So Geoff, just by asking the questions you are is doing WAYYYYYY more than many who are either in harms way, or have been through it.
So many do not ask those questions.
By you doing so demonstrates an effort to do more than just wait for that event to happen to see what you are made of.

To suggest you will not know what you will do until it happens seems an easy way of doing nothing to prepare for it.

Why accept that?

I don't.... I think now. I put myself through all sorts of scenarios.
It is all about choices. I choose to be a fighter. I choose to survive. I know I will do so when I need to.
Not because of the time I spent shooting.
But because I made that choice in my mind. And everyday in some small way I prepare for that event in my mind.

There is sooo much more I talk about as it relates to this topic, but I am a miserable typist.

All the above my opinion, based on what I believe....I am no expert on this topic either. My apologies if I suggest otherwise.
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Old 02-13-2013, 3:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt P View Post
Interesting tone with this discussion here on a topic covered many time before. I certainly like seeing such thoughtful discussion.
Seems no experts here with this discussion....Hmmmm...Telling.

But real.

The mere fact you are choosing to have and or engage in this discussion right here is doing much to help you.
Bob Hostetter said it well. Having skill and confidence is seen in its biggest value as knowing when or not to get involved. Remember, choosing to get involved can still risk the safety of possibly those around you.
I have enough experience to know I will try everything that I can to just get away, or not be involved.
Once bullets start launching from barrels all it takes is one lucky shot to rid me of all my training and time spent in development to be more confident and a better Instructor.
Yes,...... The knowledge to know when to do nothing is valuable.
It is my sense that all of us can do as much as one can to prepare for that one time we hope that never happens.
Not on the range in competition or practice. That builds confidence so you know what you can and can not do with a firearm.

To save your life or someone else s different skills are needed.

It is my sense and what I offer students that 90% of your effectiveness in a fight for your life will come from whats in your head and not in your hand and or time spent on the range. Remember, those efforts result in confidence and experience. They do not automatically transmit into you being a better gunfighter in a life and death situation.
Sure, I want you on my side going into a gun fight. Those who have spent time on the range. But I also know that is only a small part of the equation of being effective in a gun fight.
I do not know this from having been in so many, because I have been in none. I have been fortunate to have entertained an interest in the topic and have talked directly to many who have been.
So I would mimic what they have told me.... Skills are important, but having clearly defined your willingness to defend your life or a loved ones at any cost is the more important aspect.
This means more than just accepting that you are willing to do that. It means taking the time to see your yourself in any fight for your life. See yourself being effective in this fight in your mind. You engage and the attacker responds to your shots. He is down. See yourself acting responsibly along with maintaining an awareness of your immediate area. See yourself scanning/looking for additional threats. Remove that weapon from control of the attacker if safe to do so, after all you do not want him to continue the fight. See your self when you know you are in control of that situation calling 911. Be sure of what you will tell dispatch. Give the basic info you need to. More importantly to get that call completed and the phone down on the ground if you can but still connected. You do not want to be distracted by the 911 operator. Better to have the phone on and them hearing you tell that subject "stay on the ground" "stop trying to kill me" or what YOU choose to say.
You see, the beauty of our minds is how we can engage in thought to help equip ourselves with a series of choices that we can think of while comfortable and safe.
Why in the world would you wait for that event to happen and expect to make your best choices?
So Geoff, just by asking the questions you are is doing WAYYYYYY more than many who are either in harms way, or have been through it.
So many do not ask those questions.
By you doing so demonstrates an effort to do more than just wait for that event to happen to see what you are made of.

To suggest you will not know what you will do until it happens seems an easy way of doing nothing to prepare for it.

Why accept that?

I don't.... I think now. I put myself through all sorts of scenarios.
It is all about choices. I choose to be a fighter. I choose to survive. I know I will do so when I need to.
Not because of the time I spent shooting.
But because I made that choice in my mind. And everyday in some small way I prepare for that event in my mind.

There is sooo much more I talk about as it relates to this topic, but I am a miserable typist.

All the above my opinion, based on what I believe....I am no expert on this topic either. My apologies if I suggest otherwise.
Thank you, very good food for thought. I have always tried to think through what will happen if the need ever arises and run down the sequences of actions I will need to take. One thing I have consistently fallen back on when I consider this is to NOT try to be a hero, just maintain a defensive position if the situation allows, retreat to a safe place, get your phone working for you, stay small in visibility and maintain awareness without exposing yourself until the situation is hopefully resolved by means other than lethal force.

My hope in this thought pattern is that I will prevail through defensive action rather than through offensive action. The scenarios I have run through my head many times over the years I have spent becoming a fairly accomplished pistolero always have me visualizing taking cover, making sure my family/loved ones do so also and using my brain and my phone to ensure I don't have to make that fateful decision about making/taking "the" shot(s).

Hunting has taught what making a decision to take life is like and from what I gather from talking to people that have had to deal with this in real world situations, the decision involved in hunting is small potatoes in comparison.

As I originally thought it would seem that mental preparedness and clarity of thought are going to be most important. At least I won't be cluttering my mind wondering how to manipulate a firearm with a decent level of skill. Competition has drilled that into an autonomic level.

But Bob Hostetter's comment about competition training you to take shots beyond your ability has been a big eye-opener, much appreciation for the level of insight there. I have been thinking about that one a good bit since I read that reply.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed here so far. Some great insight and data points for contemplation have been gleaned.

Again, keep it coming folks, I am finding this very worthwhile and I hope others are too.

Last edited by GeoffLinder; 02-13-2013 at 3:17 PM..
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Old 02-13-2013, 4:33 PM
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This is very true. I have been thinking about this as well. I see vids of 8 shot retreats etc and if that were done in a SD situation my guess is there will be trouble in the court.
Sometimes more rounds are required to "stop the threat" than one or a controlled pair...could be 3...could be 5...could be 1...no magic number. Getting accustomed to only firing one or 2 rounds per target in a stage may condition you to do just that in a defensive shooting...and no more. Some drills are prefaced with the idea that the bad guy is continuing his attack and coming at you.

There are accounts of perps taking multiple rounds and not stopping. As you know, handguns are not magical death rays. Approximately 70% of those shot survive. So if your adversary, who is either a determined fighter, on drugs, wearing multiple layers of clothing or overweight suffers a shot which will ultimately prove lethal, it does not necessarily mean that he is incapacitated.

It comes down to incapacitation versus lethality. If the whole encounter takes a few seconds, a bad guy who has taken an ultimately lethal shot but keeps up his attack for even 5 more seconds could turn the tables before he meets his maker.

What's the alternative? Firing a round or 2 and assessing?

Some are conditioned to go down when just grazed by a round, because that's what we see in movies.
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Old 02-13-2013, 4:55 PM
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Originally Posted by PhoenixTacticalSolutions View Post
Sometimes more rounds are required to "stop the threat" than one or a controlled pair...could be 3...could be 5...could be 1...no magic number. Getting accustomed to only firing one or 2 rounds per target in a stage may condition you to do just that in a defensive shooting...and no more. Some drills are prefaced with the idea that the bad guy is continuing his attack and coming at you.

There are accounts of perps taking multiple rounds and not stopping. As you know, handguns are not magical death rays. Approximately 70% of those shot survive. So if your adversary, who is either a determined fighter, on drugs, wearing multiple layers of clothing or overweight suffers a shot which will ultimately prove lethal, it does not necessarily mean that he is incapacitated.

It comes down to incapacitation versus lethality. If the whole encounter takes a few seconds, a bad guy who has taken an ultimately lethal shot but keeps up his attack for even 5 more seconds could turn the tables before he meets his maker.

What's the alternative? Firing a round or 2 and assessing?

Some are conditioned to go down when just grazed by a round, because that's what we see in movies.
A friend of mine witnessed a shooting on the Bay Bridge a number of years back where the perp had wrapped himself in cellophane to compress his upper body and limit hydrostatic shock. The responding CHP officers put almost 20 rounds of .40SW in him before he stopped. He was continuing to shoot while he took massive numbers of center mass hits. My friend who watched it from passenger seat of car stuck in traffic about 20 feet away said perp went to slide lock on his Glock and kept pointing it at the CHP officers and trying to pull trigger for quite a while after he ran dry, then slowly went to his knees and fell forward.

Chilling experience and one that I am not letting slip from my mind in the context of my competition training where you put two per paper as a rule. Have to assume any target in a real world situation is like steel, not paper, keep shooting until it falls even if you are "calling" your shots.
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Old 02-13-2013, 5:15 PM
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Jeff Cooper's "Principles of Personal Defense" is a good read and applies directly to the subject of this thread.

Here is a link to a PDF: http://www.twistedwiretactical.com/T...lf_Defense.pdf

Here is the last paragraph:

George Patton told his officers, "Don't worry about
your flanks. Let the enemy worry about his flanks." It is
high time for society to stop worrying about the criminal,
and to let the criminal start worrying about society. And by
"society" I mean you.


Like the OP I have not "Seen the Elephant" but I can shoot a little bit. So I will follow this.

Best regards,
Keith
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Old 02-13-2013, 5:17 PM
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There were some good lessons in the threads below that included related/linked articles:
The rules of a gunfight

Mindset, training, courage and staying in the fight

Note: Officer Murphy had some well-deserved applause directed at him last night.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:08 AM
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Good point! Similar accounts with multiple .45 caliber rounds and other handgun calibers.

Not to hijack this thread but food for thought for those obsessed with any handgun caliber. It comes down to what YOU can shoot well and most importantly shot placement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffLinder View Post
A friend of mine witnessed a shooting on the Bay Bridge a number of years back where the perp had wrapped himself in cellophane to compress his upper body and limit hydrostatic shock. The responding CHP officers put almost 20 rounds of .40SW in him before he stopped. He was continuing to shoot while he took massive numbers of center mass hits. My friend who watched it from passenger seat of car stuck in traffic about 20 feet away said perp went to slide lock on his Glock and kept pointing it at the CHP officers and trying to pull trigger for quite a while after he ran dry, then slowly went to his knees and fell forward.

Chilling experience and one that I am not letting slip from my mind in the context of my competition training where you put two per paper as a rule. Have to assume any target in a real world situation is like steel, not paper, keep shooting until it falls even if you are "calling" your shots.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by PhoenixTacticalSolutions View Post
Sometimes more rounds are required to "stop the threat" than one or a controlled pair...could be 3...could be 5...could be 1...no magic number. Getting accustomed to only firing one or 2 rounds per target in a stage may condition you to do just that in a defensive shooting...and no more. Some drills are prefaced with the idea that the bad guy is continuing his attack and coming at you.

There are accounts of perps taking multiple rounds and not stopping. As you know, handguns are not magical death rays. Approximately 70% of those shot survive. So if your adversary, who is either a determined fighter, on drugs, wearing multiple layers of clothing or overweight suffers a shot which will ultimately prove lethal, it does not necessarily mean that he is incapacitated.

It comes down to incapacitation versus lethality. If the whole encounter takes a few seconds, a bad guy who has taken an ultimately lethal shot but keeps up his attack for even 5 more seconds could turn the tables before he meets his maker.

What's the alternative? Firing a round or 2 and assessing?

Some are conditioned to go down when just grazed by a round, because that's what we see in movies.
Good point. Although in court it might go a different direction. I am no expert on this but justifying multiple shots I imagine will be difficult.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:45 AM
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Good point. Although in court it might go a different direction. I am no expert on this but justifying multiple shots I imagine will be difficult.
Best response for this I have heard was "I was in fear for my life and I kept shooting until I was sure I was no longer in danger". That would seem to me to be about all you can say to this.
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Old 02-14-2013, 12:37 PM
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Consider low-light practice/training and carrying an EDC small/powerful flashlight (don't shine it on white walls or mirrors which can cause temporary self-induced blindness). Even if it's daylight it can be dark inside.

Also, practicing with your self-defense ammo. On mine, the +P+ 9mm ammo has a noticeable kick but very manageable, extremely accurate and low muzzle flash (which can blind you at night).
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Old 02-16-2013, 4:21 PM
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Jeff Cooper developed Cooper color code of awareness. I think he had it right in that you always need situational awareness 100% of the time.


Combat Mindset—The Cooper Color Code

The most important means of surviving a lethal confrontation, according to Cooper, is neither the weapon nor the martial skills. The primary tool is the combat mindset, set forth in his book, Principles of Personal Defense.[5] In the chapter on awareness, Cooper presents an adaptation of the Marine Corps system to differentiate states of readiness:
The color code, as originally introduced by Jeff Cooper, had nothing to do with tactical situations or alertness levels, but rather with one's state of mind. As taught by Cooper, it relates to the degree of peril you are willing to do something about and which allows you to move from one level of mindset to another to enable you to properly handle a given situation. Cooper did not claim to have invented anything in particular with the color code, but he was apparently the first to use it as an indication of mental state.[6]
White: Unaware and unprepared. If attacked in Condition White, the only thing that may save you is the inadequacy or ineptitude of your attacker. When confronted by something nasty, your reaction will probably be "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me."
Yellow: Relaxed alert. No specific threat situation. Your mindset is that "today could be the day I may have to defend myself". You are simply aware that the world is a potentially unfriendly place and that you are prepared to defend yourself, if necessary. You use your eyes and ears, and realize that "I may have to shoot today". You don't have to be armed in this state, but if you are armed you should be in Condition Yellow. You should always be in Yellow whenever you are in unfamiliar surroundings or among people you don't know. You can remain in Yellow for long periods, as long as you are able to "Watch your six." (In aviation 12 o'clock refers to the direction in front of the aircraft's nose. Six o'clock is the blind spot behind the pilot.) In Yellow, you are "taking in" surrounding information in a relaxed but alert manner, like a continuous 360 degree radar sweep. As Cooper put it, "I might have to shoot."
Orange: Specific alert. Something is not quite right and has your attention. Your radar has picked up a specific alert. You shift your primary focus to determine if there is a threat (but you do not drop your six). Your mindset shifts to "I may have to shoot that person today", focusing on the specific target which has caused the escalation in alert status. In Condition Orange, you set a mental trigger: "If that person does "X", I will need to stop them". Your pistol usually remains holstered in this state. Staying in Orange can be a bit of a mental strain, but you can stay in it for as long as you need to. If the threat proves to be nothing, you shift back to Condition Yellow.
Red: Condition Red is fight. Your mental trigger (established back in Condition Orange) has been tripped. "If 'X' happens I will shoot that person".
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Old 02-20-2013, 7:28 PM
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Couple of related articles albeit not all apply to all individuals in all situations:

5 keys to winning gunfights (from a cop who's 'been there' repeatedly)

5 more keys to winning gunfights


1.) Be Ready to Inflict ‘Unspeakable Violence’
2.) Mentally Rehearse
3.) Armor Up
4.) Watch for Opportunities of Advantage
5.) Don’t be Equipment-Dependent
6.) Target Your Weaknesses
7.) Stay Fit
8.) Fight ’til the Lights Go Out
9.) Practice Self Aid / Buddy Aid
10.) Don’t Let the Suspect “Win from the Grave”
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