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  #121  
Old 03-01-2013, 1:55 PM
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Sarco just shipped my frame Expected delivery date is 3/7/13 Can't wait to start
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  #122  
Old 03-01-2013, 4:13 PM
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So while I am waiting for my grip screw bushings and tap - I decided to get cracking on my P12 frame. I had already cut the rails with my cnc program I had for my P13.

Because I already had the programming for the P13, all the holes seemed to be essentially the same (but you cannot zero off the mag release for the other holes - according to above post)

One thing I did not want to do is screw up on the mag release. On the P13 I had drilled all the way thru with a 5/16" bit - but this was too big for the button side. You only want to drill that side with a 0.267" drill.

But you do have to drill down the inside (from mag catch lock side TO the button side) with the 5/16 bit to make room for the shoulder of the mag release. Go VERY slowly taking about 0.010" at a time - and have your mag catch available to test if it goes the proper distance - then stop. It's easy to go all the way thru.
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  #123  
Old 03-01-2013, 5:17 PM
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Brian,the frames don't use a conventional grip screw bushing like standard single stack frames. The bushing is already built into the frame and the only thing needed is to drill and tap the existing extrusions.
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  #124  
Old 03-01-2013, 5:36 PM
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Ranger - I was thinking that was the case - but I cant seem to find a tap for the grip screw size which I believe is a 0.15 x 50TPI?? So I ordered the bushings w/ the tap.

Is that correct for the grip screw tap as far as you know?
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  #125  
Old 03-01-2013, 6:41 PM
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I think they are 10-48, but would need to check. You could always revert to any thread size you choose as long as you can find a compatible screw with a proper sized head to hold the grips.
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  #126  
Old 03-01-2013, 7:04 PM
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I will check my grip screws and try - worse comes to worse I drill em out and use the low profile bushings.
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  #127  
Old 03-02-2013, 12:08 PM
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I was thinking about getting one of these to mess around with. How are you guys coming up with dimensions for the slide stop for instance?
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  #128  
Old 03-02-2013, 1:10 PM
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The center of the slide stop hole is parallel with the bottom of the keyhole in the frame it looks like. I can't find a distance measurement from the front of the plunger tube to the center of the slide stop hole though. The 1911 blueprints (I've seen) just have distance from the plunger tube hole, which the para doesn't have
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  #129  
Old 03-02-2013, 1:19 PM
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Drew for the most part I think those holes are the same as the 1911.

You just have to watch which one you zero off of. I used the center of the keyhole(slide catch) and programmed the cnc based off that to drill pilot holes for the slide stop, then over to the sear pin, hammer pin, and thumb safety holes.

If anyone wants the mastercam files fir the holes let me know
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  #130  
Old 03-02-2013, 1:45 PM
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Thanks brian! They are the same except for the integral plunger tube and mainspring housing aspects due to the shortened grip length(s). I'm going caveman style, careful measurments from parts and blueprints + a drillpress so I'm at a slight/major disadvantage vs. cnc. Now if Paraproshop would just send me my parts already.
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  #131  
Old 03-02-2013, 1:50 PM
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Yep - have you figured out a mainspring housing that works for the P12?

Someone mentioned a Smith n Alexander but those are almost $40

Also would like to find a 3.5" barrel w Clark/para ramp and officers slide that doesn't break the bank!
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  #132  
Old 03-02-2013, 2:13 PM
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I knew it could be done with a drill press I think i'll go pick one up this week so I can work on my frames when they get here
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  #133  
Old 03-02-2013, 5:45 PM
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Here is a picture of the build I am working on. Haven't accomplished a whole lot because I got a little side tracked. I just posted an ad in the market place on this forum. I have decided to start fabricating the fixture I machined while I should have been working on the frame. This will work on the P12 castings carbon or alloy frames I do not have a P13 to check this on. I posted a new listing in the marketplace because I didn't want to be a jerk off and try to horn in on this thread. Although I am dropping a notice here, the audience is here right?
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  #134  
Old 03-02-2013, 5:47 PM
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Smith and Alexander mainspring housings do fit. The casting needs some contouring.
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  #135  
Old 03-02-2013, 5:59 PM
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So you are selling those? How much? I will have to check what type of casting I get when it arrives on the 7th. But I am interested.
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  #136  
Old 03-02-2013, 6:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoagiem View Post
Here is a picture of the build I am working on. Haven't accomplished a whole lot because I got a little side tracked. I just posted an ad in the market place on this forum. I have decided to start fabricating the fixture I machined while I should have been working on the frame. This will work on the P12 castings carbon or alloy frames I do not have a P13 to check this on. I posted a new listing in the marketplace because I didn't want to be a jerk off and try to horn in on this thread. Although I am dropping a notice here, the audience is here right?
Looks good bro, I think all the castings sarco has are p12's.
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  #137  
Old 03-02-2013, 6:08 PM
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Never mind I found your thread Hoagiem. Great price
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  #138  
Old 03-02-2013, 6:45 PM
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Here is a couple more pics of the Smith and Alexander mainspring housing. The mainspring housing is up in the frame a bit because when I was laying it out i noticed that the bottom of the frame wasn't correct with respect to the magazine, it had a gap at the front. The bottom of the frame is a bit long in the back and the gap between the grip safety and the mainspring housing would have been too long. The top of the mainspring housing is in too far because my setup slipped when I was machining the slots for the housing to go in. I might have to weld the slots up and re machine them if I can't contour the frame to make it blend in. The Smith mainspring housing seems a bit beefy to me, I might just contour the housing to match the frame and re cut the serrations. When para made the mainspring housing for the P12 and P10 they shortened the housing from the bottom, not the top, so a standard 1911 housing won't work. It might be made to work but you will have to drill the hole for the retaining pin to accommodate the mainspring housing.
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  #139  
Old 03-02-2013, 6:51 PM
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Here is a link to the marketplace ad for the drill fixtures. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=715950
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  #140  
Old 03-02-2013, 6:56 PM
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I would just machine that portion flat with the msh, the mag does go over there any ways. I bet it would come out looking perfect. Howa bout a bobtail =) is there enough material to do it o the bottom of the msh?

-joe
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  #141  
Old 03-02-2013, 7:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. View Post
I would just machine that portion flat with the msh, the mag does go over there any ways. I bet it would come out looking perfect. Howa bout a bobtail =) is there enough material to do it o the bottom of the msh?

-joe
Thats what I was thinking, the grips are closer to the bottom in the front than in the back, so if I machine the bottom to match the mainspring housing and zero out at the front the magazine will line up flush all the way front to back. The angle of the mainspring housing is what chaps my arse, I was thinking about that fixture while I was machining the frame for the housing and all the sudden I saw that the setup slipped weird but oh well. There is enough meat back there to put a bit of a bobtail on it, good idea, I will have to look at that closer.
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  #142  
Old 03-02-2013, 8:16 PM
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I ment doesn't go over that area =) I think a bobtail to the mag would look awsome, question is do you have enough material to work with. Did you notice the frame has marks where the takedown pin is? It looks like the right spot haha. The jig looks good, seems like it would work perfect for the do it your selfer that doesn't have a mill but I think it's going to be tough to make the slots for the msh with out a mill. On a side note how is the bobtailed msh pined(attached?)

-joe

Only thing I recomend is for the jig users to go slow and steady(it wins the race haha)
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  #143  
Old 03-02-2013, 8:21 PM
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Hoag- looks awesome! Keep the photos coming!
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  #144  
Old 03-03-2013, 5:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. View Post
I ment doesn't go over that area =) I think a bobtail to the mag would look awsome, question is do you have enough material to work with. Did you notice the frame has marks where the takedown pin is? It looks like the right spot haha. The jig looks good, seems like it would work perfect for the do it your selfer that doesn't have a mill but I think it's going to be tough to make the slots for the msh with out a mill. On a side note how is the bobtailed msh pined(attached?)

-joe

Only thing I recomend is for the jig users to go slow and steady(it wins the race haha)
There isn't enough material to do a true bobtail, moving the pin up is out of the question, there is enough material behind the pin to a modified bobtail though. The full sized bobtail uses a shorter spring and shorter plungers, the pin is moved up along the axis of the spring hole.

I don't see any marks on my raw frame where the take down pin(assuming slide release) should be located. Locating that hole was a bit tricky with what there is to work with. But keeping in mind that it uses standard 1911 parts there are enough points on that casting to locate all the holes within the tolerances for mil spec parts. I am thinking that these castings made it to sarco for a reason and I am guessing that they are out of spec from the manufacturers standpoint. Can they be made to work, obviously yes, just takes a bit of time. I am sure that several will make it to the scrap pile, with a fixture or using a mill, mistakes will be made.

Very good advice for the jig users. As with any jig or fixture the key is aligning it to a predetermined point so that it is true and square. Going slow is the best advice I would give anyone using any fixture or jig. If a drill press is used the table needs to perpendicular to the quill in both directions, trammed ideally. I would highly recommend that anyone using a drill press use a vice or clamp the fixture to the table.

It would be difficult to machine the rail slots for the mainspring housing, as well as the slide rails and the lock slot for the mag release and the relief cut at the thumb safety. But with a little planning and fore thought it could be done.
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  #145  
Old 03-03-2013, 5:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianbonedoc View Post
Hoag- looks awesome! Keep the photos coming!
Thanks, as you are aware this thing is a pita and there are several opportunities for this project to take a left turn and end up in the trash, go slow, measure 3 times and cut once. And as I found out check to make sure the part is rigid secure before the cutter touches it.
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  #146  
Old 03-03-2013, 8:27 AM
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Hoag - what size tap did u use for the grip screws?
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  #147  
Old 03-03-2013, 8:50 AM
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Originally Posted by brianbonedoc View Post
Hoag - what size tap did u use for the grip screws?
I just used some 10-32 socket head cap screws, worst case I can always drill them out and tap them for the standard 1911 grip escutcheons and use the low profile ones. I have a tap for the escutcheons but not for the 1911 screws themselves. I have to relieve the diameter and take a bit off the face of the 10-32's. 10-40's or 8-36's would be a good choice too but finding them without ordering them is a different story.
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  #148  
Old 03-03-2013, 9:43 AM
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Gotcha! Thx for the info!
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  #149  
Old 03-03-2013, 10:36 AM
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Great work everyone! My theory on why the p12 and p13 frames made it to sarco is that they had a bad rep and Para discontinued them: the alloy frames had cracking issues at the slide rails, and they all had mag issues (rounds not feeding). I got 2 factory p12 mags for $19.99/ea from cdnn and the grip length is just under 1/8" too long for the mag catch to engage. Are the smith and alexander MSH's coming with pins and a spring or do they need to be sourced seperately?
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  #150  
Old 03-03-2013, 11:46 AM
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They do not come with springs and pins. The plungers can be made from standard ones if the para parts can't be found. The P10 parts will work. The springs are available from Wolff except the sear spring. That is going to be a Para part or diy. If anybody can find one the P10 and P12 used the same mainspring housing, I am thinking that maybe the Warthog parts will fit, I believe it is the same as the P10.
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  #151  
Old 03-03-2013, 11:58 AM
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Good to know. Para said they had a p12 sear spring laying around and would add it to my order I placed almost a month ago. It no longer has an active part # or anything they told me. It was a nervous day when I found out the sear spring was proprietary and not available. The p10 and warthog use a shortened grip safety I think, but the p12 and p13 use the standard size
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  #152  
Old 03-03-2013, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
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Good to know. Para said they had a p12 sear spring laying around and would add it to my order I placed almost a month ago. It no longer has an active part # or anything they told me. It was a nervous day when I found out the sear spring was proprietary and not available. The p10 and warthog use a shortened grip safety I think, but the p12 and p13 use the standard size
That is correct on the grip safety.
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  #153  
Old 03-04-2013, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoagiem View Post
Brian, for safety sake be careful with that barrel seat. Don't take this the wrong way, just trying to help. I have to say that barrel seat area looks pretty rough. The issue I see is that the barrel vertical impact surface is not there for a wilson/nowlin ramp setup. This will cause a catastrophic failure at some point. The major issue is that the barrel link will be the only thing stopping the barrels rearward movement when it is fired, this is bad. The link stretches, screws up the timing and snaps, and/or as the link stretches it causes issues with the upper locking lugs and starts to peen and possibly shear those, in the slide or on the barrel or both. You might be able to weld up an area in the radius to create a flat surface but the wilson/nowlin ramp vertical impact surface is a pita to machine and the tooling is quite expensive. Get a copy of the Schuemann timing procedure and check that setup, it is an excellent source of info. If you google 1911 barrel timing you will find the article. The tools can be made from standard feeler guages and spring stock, I don't know if they are available. Be careful with that, we don't want to see post build pics of a fubar slide, barrel, frame, HAND!
what barrel would you use instead ...a clark/para ramped barrel? Do you think it would be possible to use a regular 1911 barrel with this build. Also the p12 and 13 use a regular sized leaf spring not a officer size right? Also this frame doesnt have to be build up to be a series 80 right?

- thanks for all the info you guys you have actually made some sense out of this for me just got myself a frame

Last edited by kcstwin; 03-04-2013 at 1:25 PM.. Reason: add a question
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  #154  
Old 03-04-2013, 3:19 PM
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Crappy pics I know, but can you see the witness mark where the takedown/slide stop hole goes?
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  #155  
Old 03-04-2013, 6:34 PM
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Having that casting would have made life a lot easier for me. I looked and none of mine have that dimple. If a guy had that casting and the center finder that is a small microscope with cross hairs in it, verifying the critical spots on that casting would have been sooooo much easier. I lost track of how many hours I spent laying that casting out, checking stuff with center finders, going over blueprints what a pain in the arse! It is more than likely in the right spot if you have enough definition to the circle you should use it as your zero and check some of the known points on that casting, if it measures out ok, use it!
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  #156  
Old 03-04-2013, 6:47 PM
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It's more of a bump than a dimple, that 2 diff frames. There always on the left side looking at the back of the gun, took a while for me to find it too haha

-joe
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  #157  
Old 03-04-2013, 6:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstwin View Post
what barrel would you use instead ...a clark/para ramped barrel? Do you think it would be possible to use a regular 1911 barrel with this build. Also the p12 and 13 use a regular sized leaf spring not a officer size right? Also this frame doesnt have to be build up to be a series 80 right?

- thanks for all the info you guys you have actually made some sense out of this for me just got myself a frame
The casting is cut for a clark/para ramped barrel, however there is an insert called a parablock, it can be found here...http://www.firearmsystems.net/shop/A...m#.UTVoczfKT_R, looks like a problem waiting to happen, it says it allows the mech tech ccu to be used on frames that are cut for a ramped barrel, doesn't say which ramp exactly and I didn't look into too deeply, but you never know, it might work.

A standard sear spring(leaf spring) will not work, it is too long. I am going to get my hands on a sear spring for a warthog and see if it will work. My castings aren't cut for the sear spring yet, but it appears that some are. Otherwise it looks like a there might be a few sacrificial sear springs in my future. It appears to be be about 0.25" shorter than a standard, with the sear in place the hook at the bottom sits right at the bottom of the frame. Unless you are lucky enough to have one like Brians which his on this post is a P13, mine and several others here have the P12.

My plan is to use the series 80 plate in the frame, the cut out is there for the series 80 firing pin block. Unless I happen across a deal on a series 80 slide. The firing pin block doesn't really effect the trigger pull all that much, especially if it is set at 3.5 to 5 pounds, I have both and I really don't mind them that much. Polish the pieces and check for dragging and it is fine.
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  #158  
Old 03-04-2013, 7:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. View Post
It's more of a bump than a dimple, that 2 diff frames. There always on the left side looking at the back of the gun, took a while for me to find it too haha

-joe
These castings are a bit strange, mine have 6 digit numbers stamped on the side of the frame so it would be under the grips. I haven't seen any on here that have the numbers. They must have diverted an assembly line. I wonder if any are in further forms of completion.
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  #159  
Old 03-04-2013, 8:46 PM
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We got 6 here with no numbers

-joe
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Old 03-04-2013, 8:58 PM
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No numbers on any of my 3 frames (2 P13, 1 P12)
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