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  #1  
Old 01-30-2013, 1:07 PM
Mike357 Mike357 is offline
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Default CCW on Private Property

I need some help in determining if the following form of ccw is legal in Ca:

I am a security guard, I have my guard card & exposed firearm permit. I do not have a ccw permit. My employer has asked me to work for a customer that wants armed security, but the customer does not want anyone else to know that there is armed security. My instructions are to be plain clothes, not in uniform, carry my weapon concealed, and try to behave as any other customer.

To me, this sound like my employer is asking me to carry knowing I do not have a ccw permit. I have called the BSIS, San Diego Pd, and the Sd sheriff ccw licensing division. All have said after I described the above, is concealed carry and that I can not do so with out a ccw permit. My employer has strongly told me that the above is ok because it is on private property, and that the property owner has given permission for the above. I am deeply concerned about this, and have expressed my objections to my employer. I have told my employer that I can not accept that assignment, but my employer continues to state that is is ok. My employer has said that they would not ask me to do anything illegal that would cause them to be fined or lose their licenses. Well, I told them, I do not want to lose my licenses, or go to jail for ccw with out a permit.
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  #2  
Old 01-30-2013, 2:38 PM
P5Ret P5Ret is offline
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I don't believe it is legal, the CCW issue being first and foremost. I am going to assume that this is a store since you mention customers. While it may be private property it is open to the public. In order to work plain clothes loss prevention while armed you need to have a ccw, as I understand it. Otherwise you have to be in a distinctive uniform, per BSIS regs.
Have your employer contact BSIS and ask them since it seems he is unwilling to take your word.
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  #3  
Old 01-30-2013, 6:00 PM
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GrizzlyGuy GrizzlyGuy is offline
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Unfortunately the answer is complicated, see this article in the CGF wiki: Unlicensed Concealed Carry. You need to read the whole thing to see how your particular situation fits with the penal code and case law, but this is generally true:

Quote:
As such most employees and at most places of business can carry a concealed loaded firearm as long as they have the actual permission of someone entitled to grant that permission to exclude others and control activities. However, there are potential limitations as to where one can carry at a place of business as outlined below.
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  #4  
Old 01-30-2013, 6:59 PM
Sacmedic Sacmedic is offline
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^^^This^^^
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  #5  
Old 02-02-2013, 7:57 PM
wayno21 wayno21 is offline
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That is a question on your firearms exam, your company may be fined, revocation of BSIS issued PPO license. You may be cited, arrested and your BSIS exposed carry and guard card license revoked. Plus you will have to complete the courts system, then serve the 10 year period to clear your criminal background. You will loose your right to own, possess firearms, contract wise the company may not have the correct insurance policy to have armed plain clothes security. Either way your in a spot, the client comes first as they pay the bills, for your employer to put you in that position is cause to look elsewhere while you have a job, your refusal to stand post you may be fired, you stand post all bad if you get into a situation, can be someone simply reporting seeing your CCW weapon is all it would take, you chose to work carrying a firearm, do your homework, know your laws, protect yourself and your family and any future job after security work.
Wayne
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  #6  
Old 02-02-2013, 8:36 PM
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Librarian Librarian is offline
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Business and Professions Code looks pretty clear -
Quote:
7583.31. A firearms qualification card does not authorize the
holder thereof to carry a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person in a concealed manner pursuant to
Section 26150, 26155, 26170, or 26215 of the Penal Code.
and
Quote:
7583.37. The director may assess fines as enumerated in Article 7
(commencing with Section 7587). Assessment of administrative fines
shall be independent of any other action by the bureau or any local,
state, or federal governmental agency that may result from a
violation of this article. In addition to other prohibited acts under
this chapter, no licensee, qualified manager, or registered security
guard shall, during the course and scope of licensed activity, do
any of the following:
...
(e) Carry a concealed pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person unless one of the following
circumstances applies:
(1) The person has been issued a permit to carry a pistol,
revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person
in a concealed manner by a local law enforcement agency pursuant to
Section 26150, 26155, 26170, or 26215 of the Penal Code.

(2) The person is employed as a guard or messenger of a common
carrier, bank, or other financial institution and he or she carries
the weapon while actually employed in and about the shipment,
transportation, or delivery of any money, treasure, bullion, bonds,
or other thing of value within this state, as specified in Section
25630 of the Penal Code.
(3) The person is an honorably retired peace officer authorized to
carry a concealed firearm pursuant to Section 25650 of the Penal
Code or Article 2 (commencing with Section 25450) of Chapter 2 of
Division 5 of Title 4 of Part 6 of the Penal Code.
(4) The person is a duly appointed peace officer, as defined in
Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 of the
Penal Code, who is authorized to carry a concealed firearm in the
course and scope of his or her employment pursuant to Article 2
(commencing with Section 25450) of Chapter 2 of Division 5 of Title 4
of Part 6 of the Penal Code.
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  #7  
Old 02-03-2013, 7:39 AM
SGTTOM SGTTOM is offline
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PM'd you
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Last edited by SGTTOM; 02-03-2013 at 7:49 AM..
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  #8  
Old 02-03-2013, 7:55 AM
wayno21 wayno21 is offline
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in order for you to conduct yourself as such you need BSIS issued certs, guard card and firearms card in the cailber you are carring, plus a CCW/LTC issued from the SO/PD. just becasue you have been doing it for sometime does not make it right. BSIS has completed outreach to PD/So to help educate on the laws/regs regarding proper lisensing of security guards. This would be an example of knowing the laws on both sides. Had you had a UOF, you and your company would be writing a check with several zeros at the end. plus your current department may take issue with it, if you cant not operate with in the limits of law how can you enforce them. again a UOF your department may say out of scope, your on your own.
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:45 AM
SGTTOM SGTTOM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wayno21 View Post
in order for you to conduct yourself as such you need BSIS issued certs, guard card and firearms card in the cailber you are carring, plus a CCW/LTC issued from the SO/PD. just becasue you have been doing it for sometime does not make it right. BSIS has completed outreach to PD/So to help educate on the laws/regs regarding proper lisensing of security guards. This would be an example of knowing the laws on both sides. Had you had a UOF, you and your company would be writing a check with several zeros at the end. plus your current department may take issue with it, if you cant not operate with in the limits of law how can you enforce them. again a UOF your department may say out of scope, your on your own.
I don't work there any more thanks. But I also can tell you that private property is private property. I'm not giving legal advise just relaying what I know to the best of my knowledge. Company's do carry cc on private property and if you stay on that property you should be fine. You still need all the permits that go with being legal from The state. And I do follow laws and would not tell anyone not to. Please do not question my ability to enforce them or do my job cause I won't do that to you. I'm not claiming to be all knowing.
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  #10  
Old 02-03-2013, 11:12 AM
wayno21 wayno21 is offline
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Not attacking, just putting the correct inforamtion out there, for both sides, as thats what this is about, sharing information and educating people.
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  #11  
Old 02-03-2013, 11:57 AM
1SAM 1SAM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wayno21 View Post
That is a question on your firearms exam, your company may be fined, revocation of BSIS issued PPO license. You may be cited, arrested and your BSIS exposed carry and guard card license revoked. Plus you will have to complete the courts system, then serve the 10 year period to clear your criminal background. You will loose your right to own, possess firearms, contract wise the company may not have the correct insurance policy to have armed plain clothes security. Either way your in a spot, the client comes first as they pay the bills, for your employer to put you in that position is cause to look elsewhere while you have a job, your refusal to stand post you may be fired, you stand post all bad if you get into a situation, can be someone simply reporting seeing your CCW weapon is all it would take, you chose to work carrying a firearm, do your homework, know your laws, protect yourself and your family and any future job after security work.
Wayne


this is the truth^^
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  #12  
Old 02-03-2013, 12:17 PM
bc360 bc360 is offline
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It is true that security companys ask/make their guards carry concealed on pp, however this against BSIS regs. As far as the law is concerned you can, however it can get dicey if you get involved in an incident because you are being hired as a guard. I personaly don't work for companys that do this to their guards because they also put me in a bad spot. Ultimately it's your call and your lively hood. A guard card does not allow yourselves to carry concealed and you will pay the price if caught.
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  #13  
Old 02-06-2013, 8:10 PM
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Tincon Tincon is offline
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Concealed loaded carry in an area accessible to the public is probably illegal. It is also something the BSIS would be very unhappy about, and they would likely revoke your permits even if no charges were filed. This part makes me think you will be in a public area: "[T]ry to behave as any other customer." Don't do it.
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