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  #1  
Old 01-22-2013, 4:45 PM
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Default PPT of an AR pistol made from 80%

Hello

I'm looking for some help. I'm trying to PPT an AR pistol from a private party. The unique issue is that this private party had built the AR pistol from an 80% lower. Now I know that a party cannot build with the intent to sell, and this is not that case. He built it about a year ago and now needs some cash, and thus is looking to sell. The pistol has all the proper markings (manufacturer, location, caliber, and serial number).

Today we tried to do a ppt through an FFL, and halfway into the process i was told that they could not do the dros because their computer system only allows for manufacturers that are on the approved list, and being that this was built by an individual, they could not dros it as a handgun. They recommended I change the upper and dros as a long gun, but I refused as the whole point is to get it configured as a pistol. They then called a manager who tried to tell the seller that he could NEVER sell the firearm because he doesn't have a manufacturer license. They then sent us on our way.

So I'm looking for some guidance on what to do, or I am looking for an FFL in the Los Angeles area (preferably the valley) that knows how to legally do a PPT for an AR pistol created from an 80% lower.

Any help is greatly appreciated. Thank you
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  #2  
Old 01-22-2013, 4:59 PM
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"he could NEVER sell the firearm because he doesn't have a manufacturer license"
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  #3  
Old 01-22-2013, 5:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opgarlic View Post
"he could NEVER sell the firearm because he doesn't have a manufacturer license"
Are you quoting that because it is true, or because it sounds ridiculous? I could have sworn I read the law to say that you cannot build with the intent to sell, but you can sell somewhere down the line if you need/want to.
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Old 01-22-2013, 5:05 PM
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It can't be sold or transferred if an individual made it for himself.
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Old 01-22-2013, 5:06 PM
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I suspect a manufacturer could mark it with his info and log it in his books and then sell it but this is a workaround I haven't fully researched yet.
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Old 01-22-2013, 5:10 PM
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I sold mine a year or so ago as in a 80% I did not build to with the intention to sell but I needed money. There is a special section to put in the name of a Manufacturer that is not on the list. I did it when I worked at a FFL all the time as certain Manf's are not on the list.
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Old 01-22-2013, 5:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opgarlic View Post
"he could NEVER sell the firearm because he doesn't have a manufacturer license"
and that would be an incorrect statement.

ATF has stated that a non-licensee can sell a homemade firearm as long as it is marked in accordance with federal regulations.


As for not being able to DROS it, IIRC, there is an option for unlisted make and model to be manually entered.
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  #8  
Old 01-22-2013, 5:13 PM
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Think about driving down to OC ARMORY. Call Mike first. Here in Orange County. Might be worth it.
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Last edited by Oceanbob; 01-22-2013 at 5:14 PM.. Reason: help
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  #9  
Old 01-22-2013, 5:32 PM
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Ok I thought I was going crazy, cause I was going off of this statement directly from the ATF website:

"Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future."

I'll try giving Mike at OC Armory a call. Thank you
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  #10  
Old 01-22-2013, 5:35 PM
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wow. i guess i need to do more reading.
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  #11  
Old 01-22-2013, 5:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opgarlic View Post
wow. i guess i need to do more reading.
For sure... Cause KE6 just about nailed it..

As long as you put your manufacture marks on the lower..TouchDown Mnf. with a location of build ..
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  #12  
Old 01-31-2013, 5:23 PM
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ok here is the most legitimate answer.... im suprised no one has stated this..

anyone can manufacture their own firearms as long as they do so without the intent to sell. you will need a type 03 FFL to manufacture with the intent to sell

if however the person ever does need to sell 2 things must occur:
1: all the correct markings must be on the receiver per the ATF regulations
2: proper paper work and taxes must be paid through the DOJ/ATF to have the receiver registered in the system.

once both of those are completed you may legally transfer the home manufactured firearm. your ffl will still need to manually enter the manufacturer

the fact that the ffl you went to said it can never be sold is a myth and the fact that he didnt know about manually entering the manufactures information shows a lack of knowledge on the subject. there are alot of myths out there about ar 15s and some people will state something as fact while it is a complete myth more often than not.

do research on registering and paying the neccessary taxes on a self-manufactured firearm.

of course there is always the felonious method of selling an unregistered unpapered firearm which no one would recommend you do. it is a federal felony punishable by prison. good luck with your research
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Old 01-31-2013, 5:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caliguy2004 View Post
ok here is the most legitimate answer.... im suprised no one has stated this..

anyone can manufacture their own firearms as long as they do so without the intent to sell. you will need a type 03 FFL to manufacture with the intent to sell

if however the person ever does need to sell 2 things must occur:
1: all the correct markings must be on the receiver per the ATF regulations
2: proper paper work and taxes must be paid through the DOJ/ATF to have the receiver registered in the system.

once both of those are completed you may legally transfer the home manufactured firearm. your ffl will still need to manually enter the manufacturer

the fact that the ffl you went to said it can never be sold is a myth and the fact that he didnt know about manually entering the manufactures information shows a lack of knowledge on the subject. there are alot of myths out there about ar 15s and some people will state something as fact while it is a complete myth more often than not.

do research on registering and paying the neccessary taxes on a self-manufactured firearm.

of course there is always the felonious method of selling an unregistered unpapered firearm which no one would recommend you do. it is a federal felony punishable by prison. good luck with your research

You have some incorrect information.
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  #14  
Old 02-06-2013, 12:38 PM
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Im not big on making people do thing but since the Gvt is making us do PPT's through an FFL you should go back and make that FFL do your PPT. Having to drive to the OC to do a PPT that you should be able to do at your lgs is some serious BS. I can understand not wanting to burn a bridge at a lgs since we have so few in the LA area but you shouldnt have to drive that far.

Last edited by ArmedCMT; 02-06-2013 at 2:12 PM..
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  #15  
Old 02-06-2013, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
and that would be an incorrect statement.

ATF has stated that a non-licensee can sell a homemade firearm as long as it is marked in accordance with federal regulations.


As for not being able to DROS it, IIRC, there is an option for unlisted make and model to be manually entered.
yeap correct as always make would be made in the usa here is a thread that should answer any ?http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=115364 im not sure tho if the saler would need to do this or if you can just do it during the PPT

a quote from the link


What you should tell her is that you built the pistol from a kit, and that YOU are the "make." Then *very nicely* ask her to enter "Made in the USA" as the make. That is what they use when they don't have a make in their database. Shannon is not concerned about the fact that your pistol is single shot, that it has a mag-lock, or that it is based on the Stoner or Kalish design. She is not concerned about Calguns. So don't waste her time with that information. All she needs to do her job is the information that you provided on the form, and your respectful request to use "Made in the USA" as the make
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  #16  
Old 02-06-2013, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caliguy2004 View Post
ok here is the most legitimate answer.... im suprised no one has stated this..

anyone can manufacture their own firearms as long as they do so without the intent to sell. you will need a type 03 FFL to manufacture with the intent to sell

if however the person ever does need to sell 2 things must occur:
1: all the correct markings must be on the receiver per the ATF regulations
2: proper paper work and taxes must be paid through the DOJ/ATF to have the receiver registered in the system.

once both of those are completed you may legally transfer the home manufactured firearm. your ffl will still need to manually enter the manufacturer

the fact that the ffl you went to said it can never be sold is a myth and the fact that he didnt know about manually entering the manufactures information shows a lack of knowledge on the subject. there are alot of myths out there about ar 15s and some people will state something as fact while it is a complete myth more often than not.

do research on registering and paying the neccessary taxes on a self-manufactured firearm.

of course there is always the felonious method of selling an unregistered unpapered firearm which no one would recommend you do. it is a federal felony punishable by prison. good luck with your research
lol o wow so your saying with a C&R 03ffl you can manufature no you are thinking of a 07ffl . a 01ffl is what your average LGS has to sell firearms 03 ffl means you can only buy C&R guns 07ffl means you can manufacture guns for sale
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Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774_1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764
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