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  #1  
Old 08-25-2007, 12:56 PM
eckerph eckerph is offline
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Default Inglis Hi-power w/ stock

How much would an Inglis Hi-power w/stock and tangent sights in good condition go for in Cali? The pistol has a nice grey parkerizing finish and the wood stock is in excellent condition. The asking price is $1250 right now.
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Old 08-25-2007, 1:34 PM
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SBR's are no no's in this state.
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Old 08-25-2007, 1:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eckerph View Post
How much would an Inglis Hi-power w/stock and tangent sights in good condition go for in Cali?

The asking price is $1250 right now.
Not sure there's enough examples of a sold Inglis with stock to give you a price range.

I'd wish / think the gun would transfer ftf on a C&R.

Assembled, it's a no-go in the People's Republic.

I'd have the stock verified as a real Inglis, there are some repro's out there.

-hanko
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Old 08-25-2007, 2:02 PM
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(2) As used in this section, a "short-barreled rifle" means any of the following:< span class="description">(A) A rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.(B) A rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches. (C) Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
as long as the stock is not attached i don't see it being any different than any other Inglis HP and its PPT so its exempt from the list.
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Old 08-25-2007, 2:03 PM
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How can i tell? its marked SA 45 and looks like the ones ive seen on gunbroker as far as finish and color. and it has made in Canada next to the metal hardware.
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Old 08-25-2007, 2:45 PM
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I would be very, very careful about this purchase. I am fairly certain some federal laws come into play, constructive possesion in particular. Remember, constructive possession doesn't come into play with California assualt weapon laws, but does with Federal laws. One calgunner got busted for SBR issues with just an unassembled parts kit and a receiver. Hopefully, Bwiese or another highly esteemed member will chime in on this situation. Tentatively, I would say "stay far away from that stock." It is possible there is some detail of the law I am not aware of with C&R stuff, as I am not into them, but I would defintely wait for more information before bidding/buying.
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  #7  
Old 08-25-2007, 2:59 PM
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As far as federal law goes, if it is a 3CH serial numbered Inglis HP, it is EXEMPT from NFA, as are older broomhandle types. Thus, federally, you can legally shoot it with stock attached.

As far as state law goes, who knows? But there is no constructive possession, so you can own both.

There are many good fakes of the stocks out there- it's hard to say without seeing it in person. I know of 2 things to look for, but I've seen one repro you really couldn't tell at all.

-Dave
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Old 08-25-2007, 3:15 PM
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JEEZUS KEERIST there is bad info above.

There indeed IS constructive possession for short-barreled rifles, short bbl'd shotguns and machineguns in California, and it's separate from Fed stuff.

There is just no constructive possession for *AWs* in CA - and you guys seem to have incorrectly extrapolated from that. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

And I don't think there's C&R exemption for SBRs like for Fed NFA. (I could be wrong.)

CA SBR definitions are in early PC 12020(c) - maybe somewhere in paragraphis (1)...(3), and both SBRs and SBSes are right next to each other, and constructive possesion concepts are codified in each definition.
Constructive possession concept for machineguns is part of definition in 12200 PC.

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Last edited by bwiese; 08-25-2007 at 3:17 PM..
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  #9  
Old 08-25-2007, 5:22 PM
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So what exactly MAY be illegal? the stock because i "might" turn it into an SBR? if that the case anyone with a hacksaw and rifle may be guilty of constructive possession. I dont mean to be a smart butt, i just dont see the problem as long as the stock is not used. Anybody have any more info for me as too how much the pistol is worth or how to ID a fake stock?

Quote:
I know of 2 things to look for, but I've seen one repro you really couldn't tell at all.
What are they?
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  #10  
Old 08-25-2007, 6:27 PM
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As far as the federal law goes, broomhandles and Inglis's with original stocks are EXEMPT (there are several other specifically exempted pistols too, like artillery Lugers). Period- Says so in my ATF C&R guide. The Inglis MUST have a S/N starting in 3CH. That is not bad info, bud. It doesn't relate to C&R status at all though, it must be a specific ATF exemption.

As far as CA law goes- who knows. I have seen broomhandles shot with stocks locally, and even one for sale at the Fowler gun room quite a few years ago - as far as the legality, I am not sure. Gun shops sometimes make mistakes, but that would be a pretty big one.
I do recall fairly recently a seller at the local gun shows selling BOTH broomhandles and shoulder stocks at his table- if it were constructive possession, you'd think they'd have popped him by now (Asian guy- always has the broomhandles and SKSs at the gun shows- for years).

Federal law discussion:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=199243

My question is, if they are exempt from federal NFA, does it change legal status in CA? I can't find a specific exemption for CA anywhere on the web.

-Dave

Last edited by saki302; 08-25-2007 at 6:39 PM..
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Old 08-25-2007, 8:19 PM
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As far as the federal law goes, broomhandles and Inglis's with original stocks are EXEMPT (there are several other specifically exempted pistols too, like artillery Lugers). Period- Says so in my ATF C&R guide. The Inglis MUST have a S/N starting in 3CH. That is not bad info, bud. It doesn't relate to C&R status at all though, it must be a specific ATF exemption.
I found the same info on the net with a link to the fed website. Again i dont think their is an issue with the stock as long as it is not attached, but i wasnt asking legal questions, i was asking questions about price and ID'ing the stock soooooooo anyone have any info for me?
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  #12  
Old 08-25-2007, 10:12 PM
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As far as ID'ing an original stock- two things I know to look for is:

1. the 'made in Canada' stamp is usually crooked, or out of place on the real ones- it's nice and neat and under the latch pivot on the repros (of course, better repros do it the right way).
2. The real ones have a wood reinforcement inserted inside the wood where the metal pieces attach- you will see it as a 'sandwich' sort of, when the butt cap is opened. I have seen one repro which did have something similar.

And also- the originals had some sort of felt or cloth protector deep in the stock to protect the muzzle.

An old collector showed me these tips- maybe they'll help. It's been awhile since I've seen an Inglis stock in person!

-Dave
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Old 08-25-2007, 10:13 PM
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Interesting thread. I have a 5CH prefix Inglis HP with Chinese Markings & Slotted for the stock (which I don't Have)
According to my C&R book its considered a section III weapon removed from the NFA as collectors items and classified as curio/relic under the GCA

Now that means exactly what???
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Old 08-25-2007, 11:07 PM
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Is it a 5CH or 3CH? I thought it was 3CH.. anyhow...

It means that federally, you can attach a shoulder stock to it without registering it as an SBR legally.

-Dave
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Old 08-25-2007, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saki302 View Post
My question is, if they are exempt from federal NFA, does it change legal status in CA? I can't find a specific exemption for CA anywhere on the web.
It appears I was wrong or at least partially wrong - and that there is an exemption for C&Rs from SBR matters.

But for safety, never assume parallelisms btwn state and Federal law (look at the differences btwn the expired Federeal and currently-in-force CA AW bans!!)

It thus pays to be really really careful.



PC 12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, ... any short-barreled shotgun, any short-barreled rifle, .... any unconventional pistol,
.
.
.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:
(1) The sale to, purchase by, or possession of short-barreled shotguns or short-barreled rifles by police departments... (etc)

(2) The manufacture, possession, transportation or sale of short-barreled shotguns or short-barreled rifles when authorized by the Department of Justice pursuant to Article 6 (commencing with Section 12095) of this chapter and not in violation of federal law.
.
.
(5) Any antique firearm. For purposes of this section, "antique firearm" means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

(7) Any firearm or ammunition that is a curio or relic as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations and which is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the items pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto. Any person prohibited by Section 12021, 12021.1, or 12101 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code from possessing firearms or ammunition who obtains title to these items by bequest or intestate succession may retain title for not more than one year, but actual possession of these items at any time is punishable pursuant to Section 12021, 12021.1, or 12101 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code. Within the year, the person shall transfer title to the firearms or ammunition by sale, gift, or other disposition. Any person who violates this paragraph is in violation of subdivision (a).



12020PC(c)(2) As used in this section, a "short-barreled rifle" means any of the following:
(A) A rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(B) A rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.
(C) Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive. (E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.


I'll leave it for the C&R-knowledgable folks to delve into the Fed codes cited above in CA state law to ensure that at least some stocked Inglis 9mm's would qualify as required by state law.
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Last edited by bwiese; 08-25-2007 at 11:40 PM..
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  #16  
Old 08-25-2007, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eckerph View Post
So what exactly MAY be illegal? the stock because i "might" turn it into an SBR? if that the case anyone with a hacksaw and rifle may be guilty of constructive possession. I dont mean to be a smart butt, i just dont see the problem as long as the stock is not used. Anybody have any more info for me as too how much the pistol is worth or how to ID a fake stock?
Your "I don't see the problem" is the continued refrain of people lined up in Federal court.

One Calgunner just got out by the skin of his teeth for constructive possession of a submachinegun (open bolt). I believe the thing that saved his arse from worse treatment is that he was really really really trying to make the thing CA legal and it showed an effort toward compliance with at least some laws.

If you have all the components to make an SBR, you probably illegally constructively possess an SBR under Federal *and* state laws. (Same with SBS or MGs). Even if you have the parts stored on separate properties - the shorty bbl'd upper in your summer house in Maine, and the rifle that can accept it in California.

Having a tool ability to render one does not count. Having the separated combination of parts that can be thrown together does.

Exceptions could exist - if you legally owned an AR pistol and an AR rifle you would not legally constructively possess an SBR by the legally invalid combination of a pistol upper on your rifle lower (unless you physically actually did assemble these together).

See the law quoted in my prior post above to see how 'constructive possession' concept is codified into law for SBRs. SBSes are codified similarly in an adjoining paragraph; "machinegun" definition includes similar constructive possession phraseeology in 12200.


Constructive possession of a CA assault weapon, however, does not apply. You are indeed legal to possess an unassembled collection of AW parts. It is not codified and would require language similar to that quoted above for SBRs, SBSes and machineguns to be in the law. When the SB23 AW 'by feature' laws were created, this was not added and could have been (of course, there's a whole ration of side effects if they did).
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Old 08-26-2007, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
1. the 'made in Canada' stamp is usually crooked, or out of place on the real ones- it's nice and neat and under the latch pivot on the repros (of course, better repros do it the right way).
2. The real ones have a wood reinforcement inserted inside the wood where the metal pieces attach- you will see it as a 'sandwich' sort of, when the butt cap is opened. I have seen one repro which did have something similar.

And also- the originals had some sort of felt or cloth protector deep in the stock to protect the muzzle.

An old collector showed me these tips- maybe they'll help. It's been awhile since I've seen an Inglis stock in person!
Dave,thanx allot. thats the info i was looking for, I'm going to check all that stuff out next time i take a look at it. So far $1250 looks like a good price for the Inglis w/stock.
Bill, i see what you are trying to say after reading the regs you posted (several times) if i buy that Inglis i think i will sell the stock to my brother for $1, then it wont be in my possesion and I will own a plain PPT C&R Inglis and when we get orders to free America i can buy it back.

Thank you Bill and Dave for the info
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Old 08-27-2007, 7:06 PM
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no problem- make SURE you get an original Inglis stock at that price. I've seen stock-less Inglis's at the AZ shows go for arond $650-800. An original stock would be worth the difference- a repro, maybe $125 for a good one.

Make sure the frame/barrel/slide numbers match too, and if it comes with the original Inglis mag, INSIST you get to keep at least the magbody, and floorplate. THere is a very specific mag which came with the Inglis's- it looks liek someone had-drilled round counting holes in the side (they probably did). It will add value later if you sell it, and if you have a legal pre-2000 hi-cap, you can rebuild it withthe Inglis externals for a 'proper' mag to go with the gun.

BWiese: Thanks for the clarification! Looks like these are CA-okay (to my surprise!). There were other surprises in the C&R exempt-NFA list too, like glove guns (upwards of $1200 & I've never seen one in person) and other oddballs.

-Dave
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Old 08-27-2007, 7:56 PM
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WOW! This is good stuff to know. I just picked up a 2CH (Chinese contract)Inglis today.
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Old 08-27-2007, 8:11 PM
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Keep the stock, keep the gun. It's legal in CA. If you are going to shoot it stocked, stuff a heavy sock into the stock opening. It will keep the echo out of your ear.
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Old 08-27-2007, 8:28 PM
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thanx for the info Dave, he has a mag for it, it has an aluminum follower and the body is parked the same as the gun but with no holes. I ordered a book called " The Inglis diamond" that someone recommended to me. I guess it has some info about the fake/original stocks.
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Old 08-27-2007, 10:34 PM
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Mag base will be marked JI for John Inglis.
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Old 08-27-2007, 11:38 PM
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Mag base will be marked JI for John Inglis.
Thanx, i'm pretty sure the mag isn't original.
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