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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 01-04-2013, 7:43 PM
Dvrjon Dvrjon is offline
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Default CCW Qualification Course of Fire

Many posters have asked what the firing qualification standards are for CCW. Looking through a number of posts, the Course of Fire for each training agency varies. I completed CCW qualification firing with CSTI on Thursday and wanted to share the Course of Fire used for this organization’s training.

Qualifying was done at the Mangan Indoor Range in Sacramento. Shooting positions were inside the normal "stall and table" arrangements at most ranges, and were established along a well-worn yellow line. Folding TV-dinner-type tables or folding chairs (really) were placed to provide a shooting position table. Sacramento PD Instructor was running the line. Range instructions were standard and clear, but being beyond the barricades and on an open shooting line seemed stressfull for some. Weapons and ammunition were placed on the tables or chairs with actions open until we were directed to pick up the weapons and load.
Targets were standard B57 silhouettes, and any round inside the 8 ring or the head/neck counted as 5 points. This gives you a "center-mass" target of about 11.75"w x 17"h. 50 rounds can provide a max score of 250; 200 points are needed to qualify. You could begin with weapon holstered or held at a low ready position.

Course of Fire:

A. 3 Yds: 6 rounds; 3 stages: 2 rounds in 3 seconds; standing, strong hand, unsupported, point shooting

B. 5 Yds: 6 rounds; 2 stages: 3 rounds in 4 seconds; standing, strong hand, supported,

C. 7 yds: 6 rounds; 1 stage: 6 rounds in 10 seconds; standing, strong hand supported

D. 7 yds; 12 rounds; 1 stage: 25 seconds (includes reloads; load 6 and 6)
-6 rounds standing, strong hand unsupported
-Reload.
-6 rounds standing, weak hand unsupported

E. 7 yds: 14 rounds; 1stage: 45 seconds (includes two reloads; load 6, 6 and 2) (semi-autos load 6 and 8)
-6 rounds standing strong hand supported
-Kneel then Reload
-8 rounds kneeling, strong hand supported

F. 15 yds: 6 rounds; 1 stage: 30 seconds; standing strong hand supported

NOTES:
-3 seconds is plenty of time to draw and get off two rounds if you are on a line, planning on doing it. It also makes you realize how much more time it will take you're not on a line and are not expecting it.
-Between the stages of A and B, there is a command to safe the weapon and reholster before the next stage begins. This allows time to reload 5-round revolvers or short-magazine pistols.
-Also, if there is a weapon or ammunition malfunction, or odd reloading requirements (see below) which do not allow enough time to complete the stage in the alloted time, the instructors provide “alibi” shots outside of the time frame to allow you to shoot for score.
-As one of my weapons, I fired a five-round, S&W 649 (.38 Special) from an IWB holster and had intended to use a 5-round speedloader to reload. Unfortunately, the instructor wanted the speedloader used to initially charge the weapon, leaving me with a loaded gun and empty speedloader. All reloads were accomplished by dumping the cylinder and individually loading the cartridges. There's still ample time to do this
The five-round cylinder required a modification to the loading protocol as follows:
A: Load 4/Fire two stages of two rounds, each; Reload 2/Fire last stage.
B: Load 3/Fire; Reload 3/Fire
C: Load 5/Fire; Reload 1/Fire
D: Load 5/Fire; Reload 1/Fire; Switch Hands; Reload 5/Fire; Reload 1/Fire
E: Load 5/Fire; Reload 1/Fire; Kneel and Reload 5/Fire; Reload 3/Fire.
F: Load 5/Fire; Reload 1/Fire

Your course of fire may have been different, and if it was, please post.

Cheers.

JR
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  #2  
Old 01-04-2013, 7:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
D. 7 yds; 12 rounds; 1 stage: 25 seconds (includes reloads; load 6 and 6)
-6 rounds standing, strong hand unsupported
-Reload.
-6 rounds standing, weak hand unsupported
How difficult was the weak hand part? I don't really practice weak hand shooting.
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Old 01-04-2013, 8:44 PM
Dvrjon Dvrjon is offline
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Originally Posted by nothinghere2c View Post
How difficult was the weak hand part? I don't really practice weak hand shooting.
My perception of "difficult " will not match yours. A different context may help.

You need 40 of the 50 rounds in the scoring area to qualify. Six rounds are weak hand. If you miss them all, have you practiced enough with the strong hand to hit the other 44? If so, then the weak hand shots will not be "difficult".

Also, if you rush the shot because you're thinking about time, you will fire too quickly and miss shots.

"Slow is Smooth; Smooth is Fast". Be deliberate and sure; the time will take care of itself.

Should you practice weak hand? YES. In stress situations visual focus narrows to the threat. Some studies indicate that a number of wounds from armed conflicts are to the gun hand and arm as a direct cause of this focus. If your strong hand is out of the fight, you have to make the weak hand shot un-difficult.

JR.

Last edited by Dvrjon; 01-04-2013 at 8:50 PM..
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Old 01-04-2013, 8:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Shumba View Post
Our department makes us practice shooting with our weak hand every once in awhile. It is good to know your capabilities when the SHTF and things may not be going your way. We also have to shoot our shotguns for the strong and weak side while shooting on both sides of a barricade. (we also shoot our handguns from both sides of a barricade).

One time while shooting, I was first finishing the drill (my G22's slide was locked back) and our instructor came up to me and said "you just got shot in the right/strong arm, now reload and get back in the gunfight, you're not going to just quit are you??" I then had to reload my G22 with a fresh mag from my gun belt, rack the slide and fire 15 rounds, all without using my right arm or hand. Took me a bit to realize I could rack the slide with the back of my boot by using the rear sight, but I did it.

I love when they throw these curve balls at us. It is good to practice these skills because when things go bad your target is probably moving and/or shooting back. That is not the time to say, Oh SH_t, this isn't how I practiced, WTF do I do now?
yeah i've done a TINY bit of practicing reloads with one hand like you mentioned, i was just surprised to hear it was on the CCW test. it does make sense to be there though.
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Old 01-04-2013, 8:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
My perception of "difficult " will not match yours. A different context may help.

You need 40 of the 50 rounds in the scoring area to qualify. Six rounds are weak hand. If you miss them all, have you practiced enough with the strong hand to hit the other 44? If so, then the weak hand shots will not be "difficult".

Also, if you rush the shot because you're thinking about time, you will fire too quickly and miss shots.

"Slow is Smooth; Smooth is Fast". Be deliberate and sure; the time will take care of itself.

JR.
thank you. that was pretty much my question with regards to difficult

i was wondering how badly i could do on the tougher parts and still manage to pass.

speaking of which, how did you do? if you don't mind.
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Old 01-04-2013, 8:57 PM
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I've experienced two variations on the north coast:

One of the local ranges requires a simple 50 rounds fired at a standard B-27 target from a distance of 45 feet (35 feet for short-barreled guns, I believe the break is around 3.25 inches). No time limit, 40 out of 50 must be within the 7 ring or better to pass. Both times I've tried this I've scored 100%, and I consider it to be fairly easy even on a day I've had way too much coffee. I think this variation is mostly for requals or adding a new gun.

For my actual CCW class... this was a year and a half ago, so I can't recall the exact details. It was conducted on the same range, but with an instructor and two assistants present and included various stages and some time pressure. The first six rounds I believe were at 50 feet, strong hand supported, no time limit. Most of the subsequent stages were around 25 feet, and included kneeling strong hand supported, standing strong hand unsupported, and standing weak hand unsupported. There were a couple of mag changes/reloads involved within a stage. Finally at the end were two stages of rapid fire at very short range, about 15 feet, I believe it was three rounds and then two. Again 40 out of 50 to pass, but it was quite a bit more difficult. One guy failed, a couple of others barely made it, and I don't remember anyone out of the 15 or so students getting a perfect score although two or three did really well. The rapid fire got a few people because shooting too quickly made the targets move quite a lot.

Last edited by Knomad; 01-04-2013 at 9:06 PM..
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Old 01-04-2013, 9:26 PM
Dvrjon Dvrjon is offline
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Originally Posted by nothinghere2c View Post
speaking of which, how did you do? if you don't mind.
I had a decent day. Qualified 3 guns: Springfield M1911-A1 (.45); Ruger LC9 (9mm); and the Smith. The LC9 is new, and the trigger is an unusually long pull with really long reset. I lost focus and threw a round just outside the 8 into the 7 ring at 5 o'clock. Otherwise, it went well.

JR
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Old 01-04-2013, 9:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nothinghere2c View Post
How difficult was the weak hand part? I don't really practice weak hand shooting.
Surprised the heck out of me, but I shot better week hand, that's sad. I suck.
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Old 01-04-2013, 9:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
I had a decent day. Qualified 3 guns: Springfield M1911-A1 (.45); Ruger LC9 (9mm); and the Smith. The LC9 is new, and the trigger is an unusually long pull with really long reset. I lost focus and threw a round just outside the 8 into the 7 ring at 5 o'clock. Otherwise, it went well.

JR
glad to hear.

cheers.
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Old 01-04-2013, 9:41 PM
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Surprised the heck out of me, but I shot better week hand, that's sad. I suck.
i need much more practice weak handed lol
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Old 01-05-2013, 2:00 PM
LTC-J LTC-J is offline
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If I recall right, each issuing agency has different requirements of CCW qualifications.

For Sac, it is a "simple" draw, 6, reload, and 6 at three, seven, and fifteen yards. Time for each was 15, 30, and 45 seconds. I don't recall the exact number but I think it was up to 5 misses in a 9x9 chest level target.

On weak hand, it was different. As someone else mentioned, I was better with my weak hand than strong... even with a Glock 30(45acp)

I did a class in one handed and it was 50/50 weak and strong hand with shooting, drawing, AND malfunction clearing Weak hand double feed clearing sucked

Since the class, I try to do two magazines worth with offhand.
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Old 01-08-2013, 9:03 AM
b_madeiros b_madeiros is offline
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^ I was 50/50 with my weak hand, glock 30 here also but I qualified with points to spare. I was frustrated that I didn't get a perfect on the target
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Old 01-17-2013, 12:36 PM
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An instructor that doesn't have you shoot off hand with BOTH hands is doing you a disservice. Any shooter should be able to hit approximate center mass at 3 yards, 9 times out of 10 and 50% 0f the time at 10 yards. Not all gun fights are straight up, Weaver Stance fights. Students need to be able to shoot around left AND right hand corners and while on their back, shooting at an upwards angle. They should also be able to draw and fire two rounds in 3-4 seconds and hit center mass at least once(Tueller drill) .

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Old 01-19-2013, 12:01 AM
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In Madera Co. it's not so much a qualification test as a safety test. You only need to be accurate enough to protect yourself at close range and not be a danger to others.
The 2nd Amendment is for all, not just expert shooters. Specifically, seniors and "the weaker sex" are not discriminated against by a "score" on a paper target...

Last edited by JohnCCW; 01-19-2013 at 12:43 AM..
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