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Calguns LEOs LEOs; chat, kibitz and relax. Non-LEOs; have a questions for a cop? Ask it here, in a CIVIL manner.

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  #1  
Old 01-02-2013, 5:56 PM
ZombieZoo ZombieZoo is offline
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Default Law requires doctors, etc to report any child abuse, gunshot wounds, etc.

Makes sense, but then the "policy" is for cops not to report illegal aliens, under the theory that if they report/arrest them then they wont call for police help on other issues.

Why doesn't that "logic" apply to various types of child abuse?

I'm sure lots of kids don't get injuries treated because their parents wont take them to a doctor, knowing the doctor will report suspected child abuse.


Similarly, I've heard that a DUI driver is automatically the at fault party in a crash, under the theory that "They shouldn't have been there at all in the first place, thus it is their fault for just being there", or something like that. (Seems to me a non-DUI at fault driver shouldn't be getting off any hook just because they happen to hit a DUI driver)

Why wouldn't that apply to illegals, since you can question if someone was illegally DUI, since law allows for some BAC, but if someone is illegal it is (mostly) much simpler.


What do the cops "in the trenches" think about these issues.
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  #2  
Old 01-02-2013, 6:23 PM
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I've been trying to figure this out for years...
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  #3  
Old 01-02-2013, 7:35 PM
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You are attempting to apply logic in what has become a logic free zone.
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  #4  
Old 01-03-2013, 1:21 AM
tyrist tyrist is offline
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How exactly do you prove somebody is illegal?
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  #5  
Old 01-03-2013, 9:29 AM
ZombieZoo ZombieZoo is offline
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Good question Tyrist, I don't think "proof" is needed to dump someone back across the border.

That is because no criminal conviction attempt is going on.

We are just helping lost foreigners return to their correct nation.

Like when some poor guy gets on wrong flight from Brazil and ends up here in USA instead of UK, the policy is pretty much to front them free airfare to where they were supposed to go, or to back where they came from.

I feel your concern about that seemingly vague area of law enforcement.

What if I'm just near the border and don't have any ID?

IIRC, in 1954-56 we had "Operation Wetback"(google it) that involved wholesale round ups of neighborhoods and dumping them back in Mexico. It was legal because it wasn't charging anyone with any crime. Sure, some American citizens got swept up, but things happen.

Just because some convicted rapist turns out to be totally innocent from DNA testing doesn't mean the cops and DA are going to stop trying to get convictions using same types of imperfect evidence.

I've been ordered off land I did in fact have permission to be on by police, and threatened with arrest if I didn't comply, and it cost me some inconvenience, time and money. Then I had to jump through some hoops to make sure I had proof I had permission and even proactively inform the local LE, etc.

Likewise, US citizens wrongfully deported in the 1950s have all been allowed to return, including any children or even grand children. Part of that was some UN "Right of Return" thing the USA signed up with.

I got vague out of date info (from older American biz travelers) that the Exec Branch of USA can deport any foreigner at any time and don't answer to anyone, and that all the Immigration Courts that normally handle that aren't able to overrule that. Even if IC says "let him in", that only means "at this moment" and the Exec Branch can say "that was then, this is now".

I think the Exec Branch has basically unlimited authority to deal with any foreigners, which means anyone they believe is a foreigner, and like cops they can make mistakes and still retain their authority.

In other words, if they THINK someone is foreigner and end up deporting an American citizen, that is OK and the victim doesn't have much of a case. However if they knowingly wrongly use their power to deport for some other purpose, victim would have a Civil Rights suit.

I've (along with other students) asked about area of law in Jr HS, HS, and college and never gotten any clear answers. Seems to be much overlapping authority along with gaps in responsibility.

If a "US citizen" gets mistakenly deported he better hope he some money he can lay his hands on, and I've heard it ain't trivial to get back in through legal channels.

I think our current Open Borders regimes (Clinton-Bushs-Obama) are saying "if we can't prove we can't deport" and housing suspected illegals indefinitely in hotels until their "hearing", and the illegals are destroying any documents linking them to their foreign homeland, so we can't tell which of several possible nations they actually need to go back to.

"Holidays on I.C.E." http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/...-by-lauren-fox

Last edited by ZombieZoo; 01-03-2013 at 9:37 AM..
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  #6  
Old 01-03-2013, 9:40 AM
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How about that people that have been determined to be mentally deranged are not required by law to be reported and it's only voluntary? That to me is much more bothersome. One of the reasons IMO that these lunatics are out there crossing the line.
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:16 AM
ZombieZoo ZombieZoo is offline
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What is considered "deranged" for an American is "traditional value system" for much of the rest of the world.

I've gone to college with enough foreign students and once you get enough 80 proof truth serum down their gullet and you get their real opinions on various "social issues" and what should be done and what would be "justice" I'm pretty sure you typical American shrink would peg 50% them as "deranged" if they were regular Americans.

Of course they would same same about an American in their nation.
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Old 01-03-2013, 11:00 AM
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simply put, if any emergency medical services or hospital services find signs of abuse such as multiple brusies in different stages of healing, stories that don't match the wound IE tommy fell on a door knob type ****.

all hospitals are required to report to authorities any gunshot wound victims if they already have not been notified.


Quote:
Originally Posted by daveinwoodland View Post
How about that people that have been determined to be mentally deranged are not required by law to be reported and it's only voluntary? That to me is much more bothersome. One of the reasons IMO that these lunatics are out there crossing the line.

when you go in as what is called a "voluntary psychological evaluation" or voluntary si in the medical world. you're not put on any hold and 9/10 it will not fallow you. this type of thing covers a very wide and broad spectrum of issues including depression to alcoholics wanting help. so it's a bit hard to right off the bat say well anyone who as had voluntary psych eval is unfit for possession of a firearm. although in my personal opinion and experience if you go in for a psych eval whether voluntary or not you probably shouldn't have any firearms for simply a potential suicide risk.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieZoo View Post
What is considered "deranged" for an American is "traditional value system" for much of the rest of the world.

I've gone to college with enough foreign students and once you get enough 80 proof truth serum down their gullet and you get their real opinions on various "social issues" and what should be done and what would be "justice" I'm pretty sure you typical American shrink would peg 50% them as "deranged" if they were regular Americans.

Of course they would same same about an American in their nation.

there's mch more then a flawed or different view of values that creates an unstable mind. there's so many things that can be involved, for instance in a psych 101 class the last chapters usually are on mental illness and there are so many different causes easy ones for example drugs, alcohol abuse, genetics, developed psych issues from traumatic events( even those which may seem very minute) can cause a mind to become unstable.

to say a psychologist would peg 50% of them is completely inaccurate as you have not taken into account their cultures social norms. if in a normal culture they **** goats well that's not a psychological issue that's a cultural and social norm difference which makes it not equate to a psychological issue.
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  #9  
Old 01-04-2013, 9:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieZoo View Post
Makes sense, but then the "policy" is for cops not to report illegal aliens, under the theory that if they report/arrest them then they wont call for police help on other issues.

Why doesn't that "logic" apply to various types of child abuse?

I'm sure lots of kids don't get injuries treated because their parents wont take them to a doctor, knowing the doctor will report suspected child abuse.


Similarly, I've heard that a DUI driver is automatically the at fault party in a crash, under the theory that "They shouldn't have been there at all in the first place, thus it is their fault for just being there", or something like that. (Seems to me a non-DUI at fault driver shouldn't be getting off any hook just because they happen to hit a DUI driver)

Why wouldn't that apply to illegals, since you can question if someone was illegally DUI, since law allows for some BAC, but if someone is illegal it is (mostly) much simpler.


What do the cops "in the trenches" think about these issues.
LOL....holy cow....where do I begin?

1) There is NO such policy of law enforcement not reporting illegals for fear they won't report crimes. I have been a LEO for 24 years and have never heard of such a policy.

2) A DUI driver is not "automatically" at fault for a collision. I don't know where you get that idea. I have actually handled a few collisions where a DUI driver was involved but NOT at fault. However, the DUI driver still goes to jail for DUI.

3) Illegals who are convicted of felonies get deported with rare exception. Individual law enforcement agencies have their wn policies regarding reporting illegals. Unfortunately, it is up to the feds to handle such cases. We know the story behind that one. For the most part, the feds don't care or they have their hands tied.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieZoo View Post
Makes sense, but then the "policy" is for cops not to report illegal aliens, under the theory that if they report/arrest them then they wont call for police help on other issues.

Why doesn't that "logic" apply to various types of child abuse?

I'm sure lots of kids don't get injuries treated because their parents wont take them to a doctor, knowing the doctor will report suspected child abuse.


Similarly, I've heard that a DUI driver is automatically the at fault party in a crash, under the theory that "They shouldn't have been there at all in the first place, thus it is their fault for just being there", or something like that. (Seems to me a non-DUI at fault driver shouldn't be getting off any hook just because they happen to hit a DUI driver)

Why wouldn't that apply to illegals, since you can question if someone was illegally DUI, since law allows for some BAC, but if someone is illegal it is (mostly) much simpler.


What do the cops "in the trenches" think about these issues.
LOL....holy cow....where do I begin?

1) There is no such policy of law enforcement not reporting illegals for fear they won't report crimes. I have never heard of such a policy.

2) A DUI driver is not "automatically" at fault for a collision. I don't know where you get that idea. I have actually handled a few collisions where a DUI driver was involved but NOT at fault. However, the DUI driver still goes to jail for DUI.

3) Illegals who are convicted of felonies get deported with rare exception. Individual law enforcement agencies have their own policies regarding reporting illegals. Unfortunately, it is up to the feds to handle such cases. We know the story behind that one. For the most part, the feds don't care or they have their hands tied.
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