Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > INTERESTS AND ACTIVITIES > Ammo and Reloading
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Ammo and Reloading Factory Ammunition, Reloading, Components, Load Data and more.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-27-2012, 9:24 AM
Fyathyrio's Avatar
Fyathyrio Fyathyrio is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 881
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default Help in choosing proper Brinell for my needs

I want to get some lead projectiles to load up for my wheel guns for everyday plinking. While reviewing the Missouri Bullets site, they offer the style and weight I want in both 12 BHN and 18 BHN. While I understand higher is harder, I've not been able to find the info in my various reloading books to help choose which would be the better choice for me.

The projectiles I'm looking at are 158 gr LSWC for both .38 and .357, and 240 gr LSWC for both .44 sp and .44 mag. I suspect that the loads will be towards the higher end of load range for accuracy based on the history of the weapons and experience with copper plated. I'm not looking for mouse farts, so my gut is telling me too go with the harder ones...but I'd like to confirm that choice and better understand why.

So far the only experience I have with lead are Suter's Choice hardcast I've loaded in .38 spl, which is harder then linotype (22 BHN) I believe? I was able to develop a good load with no leading and nice accuracy. I've not loaded any .357 with these yet.

Thanks for the help,
Mark
__________________
"Everything I ever learned about leadership, I learned from a Chief Petty Officer." - John McCain
"Use your hammer, not your mouth, jackass!" - Mike Ditka
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Earl Jones
The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-27-2012, 12:04 PM
sofbak sofbak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,335
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Go back to the MO bullet web site. Somewhere in their site there is a whole page discussion on BNH selection for factors of velocity/pressure, etc.......
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-27-2012, 12:09 PM
Bill Steele Bill Steele is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 4,491
iTrader: 55 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyathyrio View Post
I want to get some lead projectiles to load up for my wheel guns for everyday plinking. While reviewing the Missouri Bullets site, they offer the style and weight I want in both 12 BHN and 18 BHN. While I understand higher is harder, I've not been able to find the info in my various reloading books to help choose which would be the better choice for me.

The projectiles I'm looking at are 158 gr LSWC for both .38 and .357, and 240 gr LSWC for both .44 sp and .44 mag. I suspect that the loads will be towards the higher end of load range for accuracy based on the history of the weapons and experience with copper plated. I'm not looking for mouse farts, so my gut is telling me too go with the harder ones...but I'd like to confirm that choice and better understand why.

So far the only experience I have with lead are Suter's Choice hardcast I've loaded in .38 spl, which is harder then linotype (22 BHN) I believe? I was able to develop a good load with no leading and nice accuracy. I've not loaded any .357 with these yet.

Thanks for the help,
Mark

If you are planning anything close to full house .357 Magnum or .44 Magnum pressures, the 18 will be better than the 12's.

Having said that, in my experience, bullet fit is most important, lube is second and bullet hardness pretty far down the list when it comes to leading concerns.

When I am loading SWC's I am usually shooting for velocities in the 1000fops range, so pressures are pretty tame. When I am loading for max pressures in my 10mm, .357 Magnum and .44RM, I load either GC bullets or jacketed.
__________________
When asked what qualities he most valued in his generals, Napoleon said, "give me lucky ones."
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-31-2012, 3:08 PM
Fyathyrio's Avatar
Fyathyrio Fyathyrio is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 881
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Thanks for the replies, I did go with the 18 BHN.

Now, anybody have a recommendation for which powder to start with? I have Bullseye, IMR 4227, and Unique. I've found load data for all three using standard LPP, which I have plenty on hand. I'm not a fan of a small charge in big case, so I'd rather not use the Bullseye. So, between Unique and IMR 4227, which would likely be a better choice for a decent .44 mag load out of a S&W model 29 with 6.5" barrel. I'd like it to feel like a magnum, but not looking for crazy hand cannon or flame thrower rounds. Something around 1100ish fps should work nicely.

I'm not against other powder recommendations, but would prefer one that uses LPP, not LPM so I don't have to buy primers.

Thanks,
Mark
__________________
"Everything I ever learned about leadership, I learned from a Chief Petty Officer." - John McCain
"Use your hammer, not your mouth, jackass!" - Mike Ditka
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Earl Jones
The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-31-2012, 3:08 PM
Fyathyrio's Avatar
Fyathyrio Fyathyrio is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 881
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Thanks for the replies, I did go with the 18 BHN.

Now, anybody have a recommendation for which powder to start with? I have Bullseye, IMR 4227, and Unique. I've found load data for all three using standard LPP, which I have plenty on hand. I'm not a fan of a small charge in big case, so I'd rather not use the Bullseye. So, between Unique and IMR 4227, which would likely be a better choice for a decent .44 mag load out of a S&W model 29 with 6.5" barrel. I'd like it to feel like a magnum, but not looking for crazy hand cannon or flame thrower rounds. Something around 1100ish fps should work nicely.

I'm not against other powder recommendations, but would prefer one that uses LPP, not LPM so I don't have to buy primers.

Thanks,
Mark
__________________
"Everything I ever learned about leadership, I learned from a Chief Petty Officer." - John McCain
"Use your hammer, not your mouth, jackass!" - Mike Ditka
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Earl Jones
The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-31-2012, 8:15 PM
CalTeacher CalTeacher is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 787
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Proper bullet size and adequate lube are far more important than bullet hardness. Don't get too hung up on a bhn number that is 2 more or less than what a company says is optimal. I've run 8bhn lead in a 45-70 at 1200fps with no gas check with excellent results.

Dang it, Bill beat me to it.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-31-2012, 8:19 PM
checkenbach checkenbach is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,063
iTrader: 13 / 100%
Default

What gun are you going to shoot these out of?? My 686 SSR has the new style EDM rifling and it HATES Lead, M.B.C. in particular.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-31-2012, 8:41 PM
Fyathyrio's Avatar
Fyathyrio Fyathyrio is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 881
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalTeacher View Post
Proper bullet size and adequate lube are far more important than bullet hardness. Don't get too hung up on a bhn number that is 2 more or less than what a company says is optimal. I've run 8bhn lead in a 45-70 at 1200fps with no gas check with excellent results.

Dang it, Bill beat me to it.
I think the size and lube should be adequate, I don't think I've seen a bad word said about Missouri Bullets, that's why I decided to try them. Now I'm looking for some with previous experience loading cast to see if the powders I have will likely give good results or if I should try/buy another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by checkenbach View Post
What gun are you going to shoot these out of?? My 686 SSR has the new style EDM rifling and it HATES Lead, M.B.C. in particular.
I'm shooting these out of an older S&W Model 29, mid '70s vintage is best guess based on SN research. It shoots nice with jacketed, time to hopefully save some money with cheaper projectiles.
__________________
"Everything I ever learned about leadership, I learned from a Chief Petty Officer." - John McCain
"Use your hammer, not your mouth, jackass!" - Mike Ditka
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Earl Jones
The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-31-2012, 8:49 PM
cruddymutt's Avatar
cruddymutt cruddymutt is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: High Desert
Posts: 1,595
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

I shoot 200gr LRN 12 bhn from MBC out of my RIA 1911A1 45acp and a Henry Big Boy 45lc. Both I load with Unique. My friend is using 200gr 18bhn out of his 1911 (unknown maker but its a pricey one) Vaquero 45lc, Henry BB 45lc, Henry BB 44mag, and another 44 mag revolver(unknown maker). He uses Unique in all of them.
Acuracy for my 2 guns has been excellent and my friends Vaqueros shoot real good as well.
__________________

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-31-2012, 9:08 PM
klewan klewan is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,044
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

The current edition of the Lee Reloading manual has a lot of info on bullet hardness. Lee also sells a hardness measure that doesn't cost a fortune, about $50.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-31-2012, 9:12 PM
CalTeacher CalTeacher is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 787
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

I've always found unique to be a great powder for mid-range cast bullet loads. It burns surprisingly clean at higher pressures and its my main powder for .40, 9mm, and 45-70 cast bullet loads.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-01-2013, 7:38 AM
Bill Steele Bill Steele is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 4,491
iTrader: 55 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyathyrio View Post
Thanks for the replies, I did go with the 18 BHN.

Now, anybody have a recommendation for which powder to start with? I have Bullseye, IMR 4227, and Unique. I've found load data for all three using standard LPP, which I have plenty on hand. I'm not a fan of a small charge in big case, so I'd rather not use the Bullseye. So, between Unique and IMR 4227, which would likely be a better choice for a decent .44 mag load out of a S&W model 29 with 6.5" barrel. I'd like it to feel like a magnum, but not looking for crazy hand cannon or flame thrower rounds. Something around 1100ish fps should work nicely.

I'm not against other powder recommendations, but would prefer one that uses LPP, not LPM so I don't have to buy primers.

Thanks,
Mark
Unique is just OK in my opinion with .44RM. For me and my typical WLP primers, shooting 240gr Keith style LSWC's, it seems kind of peaky. When I run it too light it is pretty dirty and a carbon belcher. A little too heavy and it feels like I am in a Rod Serling story. Kind of ho-hum, ho-hum, ho-hum and then HELLO! I am in the vast minority on my feelings for Unique, so take it as one guys opinion. Gievn you have it on hand, maybe give it a try and see for yourself. I agree with Calteacher that as you load closer to max Unique burns pretty clean.

4227 is a fine powder for magnum loads. Load 22grs and you won't be worrying about a double charge and you will definitely get that "magnum feel", albeit perhaps a little less than full house H110/W296, but not much.

Personally, for your 1100fps goal, I would pick up a pound of W231/HP38. You can download it to well under 1000fps no problem and take it right up close to your 4227 territory, all the while being extremely well behaved. The downside is it is pretty dense. Another .44 RM favorite of mine is AA #9. It downloads really well (easily to your velocity goals) and you can step on the gas and get into H110 territory. It also meters as well as any pistol powder you will ever load. The downside is you are using a lot of powder, even on downloads, so it is a little less economical than other options, excepting perhaps your 4227. All of the above work fine with standard primers, although I do favor WLP's with that big case.

Good luck, have fun.
__________________
When asked what qualities he most valued in his generals, Napoleon said, "give me lucky ones."
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-01-2013, 8:37 AM
J-cat J-cat is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Orange County
Posts: 5,954
iTrader: 56 / 100%
Default

Get the 12BHN ones. The 44 Magnum was developed with wheelweight alloy, 12 BHN. It will obturate better with mid-max loads. You don't need the harder alloy. Also, just because you found plated bullets shoot more accurately at max velocities, that does not necessarily translate to lead bullets.

I found 12 BHN bullets stopped leading in my 45 ACP revolvers and were more accurate to boot. I now shoot them in everything.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-01-2013, 11:20 AM
Fyathyrio's Avatar
Fyathyrio Fyathyrio is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 881
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Bill, thanks for the informative reply, it's nice to have some real world experience to go along with the recipes in the load manuals. 22 gr 4227 is my jacketed magnum load, so perhaps I'll try a few with lead in that range also. I've also found a bunch of comments elsewhere that 10 +/- gr Unique is a nice load for lead magnum rounds, and is the powder I use for my .44 spl jacketed loads and what I'll try with these projectiles also. I guess that's why we reload, I'll try a few of each and see what I like!
__________________
"Everything I ever learned about leadership, I learned from a Chief Petty Officer." - John McCain
"Use your hammer, not your mouth, jackass!" - Mike Ditka
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Earl Jones
The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-01-2013, 2:15 PM
Bill Steele Bill Steele is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 4,491
iTrader: 55 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyathyrio View Post
Bill, thanks for the informative reply, it's nice to have some real world experience to go along with the recipes in the load manuals. 22 gr 4227 is my jacketed magnum load, so perhaps I'll try a few with lead in that range also. I've also found a bunch of comments elsewhere that 10 +/- gr Unique is a nice load for lead magnum rounds, and is the powder I use for my .44 spl jacketed loads and what I'll try with these projectiles also. I guess that's why we reload, I'll try a few of each and see what I like!
I think I remember Divernhunter posting he ran 10gr of Unique as his target .44RM load, but don't quote me on it. Which lead me to make a strong mental note not to piss him off, because that is about 200fps faster than what I use as a target load....
__________________
When asked what qualities he most valued in his generals, Napoleon said, "give me lucky ones."

Last edited by Bill Steele; 01-01-2013 at 2:20 PM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 4:36 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.