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  #1  
Old 12-30-2012, 11:13 PM
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JoshuaS JoshuaS is offline
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Default Crimp, 357, Berry plated bullets

So I have loaded just under 200 rds of 357 magnum since I got my Hornady single stage press on Christmas.

Hornady is sending me 600 free bullets as rebates (well I pay shipping, but still). But in the meanwhile, I bought some Berry's plated 158 gr just to get started and learn. I am not worried about my 2nd batch of 99 (1 short of 100 because I seated the primer upside down). There, all of the cases were a uniform length to begin with and I got uniform bullet seating and as best as I can tell a decent roll crimp, without overdoing it (at least looking at pictures others have as examples)

But on my first batch of 98 I some what overcrimped the first dozen or so, and then managed to mashed the case on one. The cases were not uniform and I was getting inconsistent results. So I just seated the rest without a crimp.

Now I aimed for a load around 1100 fps (the box said no more than 1250fps, but I have since heard to keep it under 1100 for accuracy). I was fairly consistent on the 1st batch (better on the 2nd). But I understand that there may be a danger in magnum loads of a bullet shifting in the case because of recoil? Do I really have to go back and crimp the ones I didn't, or should they be fine to shoot? When I flare the mouth for seating, I did so as slightly as I could. Very tiny adjustments until I could just barely put the bullet in for seating. If that make any notable difference.

The powder I used was H110 (not ideal for a novice I know, but of the list of powders I had when I went shopping, that was in stock, though it was my last choice).
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  #2  
Old 12-31-2012, 7:19 AM
aleng888 aleng888 is offline
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How much powder are you useing? And what type of firearm are you useing this in?

Because bullet fps will change depen the length of your barrel and type of firearm.

Also as for the crimp if you are useing this in revolver how much don't matter too much. For lever action you should have it.

Oh welcome
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Old 12-31-2012, 7:23 AM
Bill Steele Bill Steele is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshuaS View Post
So I have loaded just under 200 rds of 357 magnum since I got my Hornady single stage press on Christmas.

Hornady is sending me 600 free bullets as rebates (well I pay shipping, but still). But in the meanwhile, I bought some Berry's plated 158 gr just to get started and learn. I am not worried about my 2nd batch of 99 (1 short of 100 because I seated the primer upside down). There, all of the cases were a uniform length to begin with and I got uniform bullet seating and as best as I can tell a decent roll crimp, without overdoing it (at least looking at pictures others have as examples)

But on my first batch of 98 I some what overcrimped the first dozen or so, and then managed to mashed the case on one. The cases were not uniform and I was getting inconsistent results. So I just seated the rest without a crimp.

Now I aimed for a load around 1100 fps (the box said no more than 1250fps, but I have since heard to keep it under 1100 for accuracy). I was fairly consistent on the 1st batch (better on the 2nd). But I understand that there may be a danger in magnum loads of a bullet shifting in the case because of recoil? Do I really have to go back and crimp the ones I didn't, or should they be fine to shoot? When I flare the mouth for seating, I did so as slightly as I could. Very tiny adjustments until I could just barely put the bullet in for seating. If that make any notable difference.

The powder I used was H110 (not ideal for a novice I know, but of the list of powders I had when I went shopping, that was in stock, though it was my last choice).

The Berry's with which I am familar don't have a cannelure. It is not ideal to roll crimp into plated bullets without a cannelure as the plating is quite thin and the lead under is quite soft. You may get some cruddy accuracy with the ones you crimped if the plating starts to separate.

You are correct that a roll crimp helps hold the bullet firmly during heavy recoil. The safety issue on that score is in a revolver if the bullet creeps out enough the action may jam, in a pistol the round may jam in the magazine. If you are using the gun in a defensive situation that might be a really bad thing. If you are shooting at paper, it is not a safety concern. If the bullet creeps forward enough you will just have to deal with a jammed gun. At 1100fps, normal neck tension should be fine to hold the bullet.

A firm roll crimp can also help with burn efficiency when loading a slower burning magnum powder like H110/W296. H110/W296 is kind of temperamental when it comes to pressure and burn rate. It needs a lot of pressure to burn efficiently, hence the admonition to not reduce loads below 3% by Hodgdon.

Which brings me to my question on how you came up with 1100fps and H110? If you deviate from the published load guidelines from Hodgdon (which generally call for velocities well above 1100fps for a .357 magnum), you might encounter inconsistent burn rates and poor results, possibly even a stuck bullet in an extreme case. If you did download below Hodgdon load guidelines, I would recommend no rapid fire with these rounds and keep an eye on the target and make sure you are getting an impact every shot. You don't want to pull the trigger with a bullet in the barrel.

Other than your bullet and powder combination (and crimping into a plated non-cannelured bullet) it sounds like you are doing everything right.

Good luck, have fun.
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Last edited by Bill Steele; 12-31-2012 at 7:26 AM..
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Old 12-31-2012, 7:42 AM
spamsucker spamsucker is offline
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Thanks Bill! Some of us bystanders learned an important bunch of info from your post.
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Old 12-31-2012, 7:49 AM
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Originally Posted by spamsucker View Post
Thanks Bill! Some of us bystanders learned an important bunch of info from your post.
Glad to be of help. Of course, in the next 10 minutes, a very experienced loader will come along and disagree with everything I posted. That is what is so interesting about reloading, lots of varying experiences and approaches.
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  #6  
Old 12-31-2012, 11:25 AM
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I followed the loading data in my Hornady manual for 158 gr, H110.

This is the data given

H-110: 1000fps=12.7 gr, 1050=13.3, 1100=13.9, 11.50=14.4, 1200=15, 1250=15.6 (max load)

Handgun used in the manual: Colt Python, 8", 1/16 twist
Frontier case. Primer: Winchester WSPM

My handgun: Ruger New Vaquero, 5 ". Primer: Winchester WSPM (by coincidence actually same primer) Cases were mixed in the first lot between Amscor and Remington, the 2nd were all stamped RA.


My OAL= 1.586, just short of the 1.590 give for max in manual

ETA: This is weird. What I posted is from the 8th ed of Hornady's Handbook of Cartridge Reloading. I also happen to have, among a bunch of used manuals, the 4th edition of the same. It gives very different numbers

H110- 1200 fps=14.1 gr, 1250=14.7, 1300=15.2, and1350=15.8

The difference is they used a S&W 27, 8 3/8", 1/18 3/4"twist, and Federal 200 primers.

I think I should be fine. I used the same primers as the 8th editions. My barrel is shorter. And the twist rate is the same as the Python, being 1/16. But even were I to get the speeds closer to this older manual, I would be just at the border of advisable with these bullets?

I loaded at 14 gr (well 13.8 to 14.1)

Last edited by JoshuaS; 12-31-2012 at 11:32 AM.. Reason: More info
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  #7  
Old 12-31-2012, 11:54 AM
Bill Steele Bill Steele is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshuaS View Post
I followed the loading data in my Hornady manual for 158 gr, H110.

This is the data given

H-110: 1000fps=12.7 gr, 1050=13.3, 1100=13.9, 11.50=14.4, 1200=15, 1250=15.6 (max load)

Handgun used in the manual: Colt Python, 8", 1/16 twist
Frontier case. Primer: Winchester WSPM

My handgun: Ruger New Vaquero, 5 ". Primer: Winchester WSPM (by coincidence actually same primer) Cases were mixed in the first lot between Amscor and Remington, the 2nd were all stamped RA.


My OAL= 1.586, just short of the 1.590 give for max in manual

ETA: This is weird. What I posted is from the 8th ed of Hornady's Handbook of Cartridge Reloading. I also happen to have, among a bunch of used manuals, the 4th edition of the same. It gives very different numbers

H110- 1200 fps=14.1 gr, 1250=14.7, 1300=15.2, and1350=15.8

The difference is they used a S&W 27, 8 3/8", 1/18 3/4"twist, and Federal 200 primers.

I think I should be fine. I used the same primers as the 8th editions. My barrel is shorter. And the twist rate is the same as the Python, being 1/16. But even were I to get the speeds closer to this older manual, I would be just at the border of advisable with these bullets?

I loaded at 14 gr (well 13.8 to 14.1)
The velocity numbers seem way off in your original post of the #8 guide, but I think Hornaday does test their loads before publishing, so you likely will be fine. Frankly, even the #4 data seems a little slow velocity wise for an 8" barrel.

I would keep an eye on the burn results as 14gr seems pretty light for H110.

The speed limits are for keeping the plating on and POI results, I don't think there is any real danger if your velocites are more like what I expected you would get, likely just poor accuracy.

PS - I looked up my old load data and I was using 16.5grs of H110/W296 when I loaded a 158gr XTP, I then went on the Hodgdon site and they list 16.7gr as the maximum for the 158gr XTP, so something is screwy all the way around.
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Last edited by Bill Steele; 12-31-2012 at 12:11 PM..
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:13 PM
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Well I checked one more manual, Lyman's. Used the same bullet as Hornady. CCI 550 primers, 4" barrel, same twist as the SW 27 and it has 16.3 with 1178 fps as the starting load?!

Looked at two more manuals. One has 12.1 gr as starting. The other (speer) has 139 at 11.51 fps as starting.

Didn't expect such wide disparity between the manuals. I would think it would slightly help using magnum primers, right?
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by JoshuaS View Post
Well I checked one more manual, Lyman's. Used the same bullet as Hornady. CCI 550 primers, 4" barrel, same twist as the SW 27 and it has 16.3 with 1178 fps as the starting load?!

Looked at two more manuals. One has 12.1 gr as starting. The other (speer) has 139 at 11.51 fps as starting.

Didn't expect such wide disparity between the manuals. I would think it would slightly help using magnum primers, right?
With H110/W296 magnum pistol primers are definitely recommended. In general you can get away with non-magnum primers with just about any pistol powder, but H110 is an exception. It gets back to that hard to ignite and keep burning thing.

It sounds like you will be fine in any case.

If you get lousy results on the target, maybe pick up a pound of W231/HP-38 and some regular primers, great to use with plated bullets and target loadings, just crimp to take the bell out.
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Last edited by Bill Steele; 12-31-2012 at 12:33 PM..
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  #10  
Old 12-31-2012, 12:50 PM
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Bill!!!
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:50 PM
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:50 PM
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Old 01-01-2013, 9:20 AM
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When I first reloaded I was wondering what they used to get those velocities they published, some folks use a lab type of tool (Lee), others just shoot it out of a regular gun (Lyman). I dunno about any others but they will usually tell you what they shot it out of to get those results. From there it is usually a standard +50 FPS per extra inch of barrel or -50fps per inch for shorter barrels. I have not read any other manuals except the BoLy and the BoLee. When it comes down to it, this is really more of an art, not a science. You either paint nice or you paint abstract...

Extreme Bullets are the plated with nice cannelures type of bullets that I like to use. Powerbond also but I really like Extreme and their customer service...

One thing I learned is that plated bullets are a lot more tougher than many people give them credit for. Extreme Bullets can be pushed to 1400+ FPS even though they do not like to say that and I have shot mine out of 44 mag at near 1500 FPS with little to no copper fouling... I dunno if Berry's can do that but Extreme can and they are CHEAP delivered to me. Matter of fact I am waiting for 1k of .380 and 1k of .45...

Last edited by stilly; 01-01-2013 at 9:22 AM..
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Old 01-01-2013, 4:18 PM
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Originally Posted by stilly View Post
When I first reloaded I was wondering what they used to get those velocities they published, some folks use a lab type of tool (Lee), others just shoot it out of a regular gun (Lyman). I dunno about any others but they will usually tell you what they shot it out of to get those results. From there it is usually a standard +50 FPS per extra inch of barrel or -50fps per inch for shorter barrels. I have not read any other manuals except the BoLy and the BoLee. When it comes down to it, this is really more of an art, not a science. You either paint nice or you paint abstract...

Extreme Bullets are the plated with nice cannelures type of bullets that I like to use. Powerbond also but I really like Extreme and their customer service...

One thing I learned is that plated bullets are a lot more tougher than many people give them credit for. Extreme Bullets can be pushed to 1400+ FPS even though they do not like to say that and I have shot mine out of 44 mag at near 1500 FPS with little to no copper fouling... I dunno if Berry's can do that but Extreme can and they are CHEAP delivered to me. Matter of fact I am waiting for 1k of .380 and 1k of .45...
I use X-treme and when I first began to reload them for a .30-.30 I called their office and they told me they can't (for insurance purposes) recommend speeds over 1500 fps. They then told me some peeps were loading these the same as a Sierra FMJ on the low end with no problem. hmmm

I ran the 150 grain .308 up to 2100 fps with very little copper coming off in only small specks visible on cleaning the first wet patch only. I run this load consistently at 1750 fps now. Yes, they are dang nice bullets for plinkers. I also load 9mm but neither have cannelures. Your .45's do?

I place a light crimp in all mine for both rounds. It becomes a feel thing with practice. I use a single stage. I do get a flyer now and then, so I guess I did a little to much crimp? I feel safer with the light crimp and used calipers during testing to make sure the ones still in gun weren't moving on me.
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Old 01-01-2013, 4:33 PM
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Here is an X-treme bullet I put in vise for testing prior to shooting. I could not get the plating off after this squeeze. You will see the base of the bullet is rather solid and plating appears thick. I wanted to get a piece off to measure the plating but failed. They are tough cookies.
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File Type: jpg xtreme150gr30cal.jpg (17.6 KB, 13 views)

Last edited by sixoclockhold; 01-01-2013 at 4:39 PM.. Reason: pic
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Old 01-01-2013, 6:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Steele View Post
Glad to be of help. Of course, in the next 10 minutes, a very experienced loader will come along and disagree with everything I posted. That is what is so interesting about reloading, lots of varying experiences and approaches.
I've been loading for 20 years and I disagree with everything Bill posted above.

Just kidding Bill
I always like to hear your take on things always good logic behind it.

I'm with you it's so cool how there are so many different ways to accomplish the same thing. Back when I started loading the internet wasn't around so you had to go pick the brains of the old timers or trash cases until you got it right.
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Old 01-01-2013, 7:00 PM
Bill Steele Bill Steele is offline
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I've been loading for 20 years and I disagree with everything Bill posted above.

Just kidding Bill....
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Old 01-01-2013, 9:26 PM
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Well I get to try the loads tomorrow. I will load the first few one at a time as if with a single shot gun, and after that periodically check to see if the bullets are moving in the cases, etc.

If I don't blow up my gun or get a squib and I get even marginally acceptable accuracy, I will probably stick with this until the H110 and Berry's bullets are gone. This was just to get my feet wet. After this I want to develop two loads. Plinking and hunting. Hornady is sending me 600 110 gr bullets. Try that for plinking. And get some actual 158gr JSPs for hunting. Thinking of 4227, or maybe 2400, for the powder
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Old 01-01-2013, 9:51 PM
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Originally Posted by sixoclockhold View Post
I use X-treme and when I first began to reload them for a .30-.30 I called their office and they told me they can't (for insurance purposes) recommend speeds over 1500 fps. They then told me some peeps were loading these the same as a Sierra FMJ on the low end with no problem. hmmm

I ran the 150 grain .308 up to 2100 fps with very little copper coming off in only small specks visible on cleaning the first wet patch only. I run this load consistently at 1750 fps now. Yes, they are dang nice bullets for plinkers. I also load 9mm but neither have cannelures. Your .45's do?

I place a light crimp in all mine for both rounds. It becomes a feel thing with practice. I use a single stage. I do get a flyer now and then, so I guess I did a little to much crimp? I feel safer with the light crimp and used calipers during testing to make sure the ones still in gun weren't moving on me.

I've been using that 150gr 30-30 xtreeme bullet also, I've run them up to 1900 fps but they seem to be more accurate in my guns right at the 1500 fps. They are super fun to shoot great pop with out beating you up.

I use a light crimp on all the xtreeme bullets none have cannelure's but it is a tapper crimp not a roll crimp like the .357.

I have tried to seat a 124gr 9mm Xtreeme in a .357 but the bearing surface is too short on the xtreemes. I used a very heavy roll crimp but still couldn't get the needed OAL. It takes a lot of crimp to pierce the copper plating on them. The Lasercast 9mm 125gr lead work great in the .357. Having said that I use the least amount of crimp needed to keep the bullets from getting bumped deeper.
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