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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 08-15-2017, 4:50 AM
Munny$hot Munny$hot is offline
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Default .22 LR conversions

Having a semi with a .22 LR BCG in a CF barreled upper still be required to register?
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  #2  
Old 08-15-2017, 4:51 AM
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yes
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  #3  
Old 08-15-2017, 9:18 AM
Garand Hunter Garand Hunter is offline
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Go to section 5470 b & c in Articl 3 on chapter 39 Assualt Weapon ans Large-Capacity Magazines. Rimfirefire pistols, centerfire rifles. A centerfire upper with
a rimfire BCG cannot load or fire a centerfire cartridge.

Psalm 1
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  #4  
Old 08-15-2017, 9:28 AM
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No, not if you leave it in the gun.

Not a center fire. Unable to chamber center fire ammo. Unable to insert standard center fire magazines. Not a AW.

Now if you happen to switch it out for a 223 BCG when you go shooting...different story.

And yea - I am standing behind this with a couple of builds with CMMG conversion kits installed. They are dedicated 22 LR shooters.

Last edited by swiftone; 08-15-2017 at 9:31 AM..
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  #5  
Old 08-15-2017, 11:23 AM
skyblue314 skyblue314 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftone View Post
No, not if you leave it in the gun.

Not a center fire. Unable to chamber center fire ammo. Unable to insert standard center fire magazines. Not a AW.

Now if you happen to switch it out for a 223 BCG when you go shooting...different story.

And yea - I am standing behind this with a couple of builds with CMMG conversion kits installed. They are dedicated 22 LR shooters.
How reliable / accurate are those CMMG conversion kits? Weighing my options between a kit or springing for a dedicated upper. The ones from CORE look really nice..

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  #6  
Old 08-15-2017, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by skyblue314 View Post
How reliable / accurate are those CMMG conversion kits? Weighing my options between a kit or springing for a dedicated upper. The ones from CORE look really nice..

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  #7  
Old 08-15-2017, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftone View Post
No, not if you leave it in the gun.

Not a center fire. Unable to chamber center fire ammo. Unable to insert standard center fire magazines. Not a AW.

Now if you happen to switch it out for a 223 BCG when you go shooting...different story.

And yea - I am standing behind this with a couple of builds with CMMG conversion kits installed. They are dedicated 22 LR shooters.
The law specifically states that an AR with the upper removed is NOT an AW. However, nowhere in the regs does it say that a conversion kit makes the gun not an AW. All that is needed to convert it back is to remove the kit and put a centerfire BCG in.

I would not risk my freedom on the gamble that a LEO or a prosecutor will see things your way. But, YMMV
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  #8  
Old 08-15-2017, 12:28 PM
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plug the buffer tube or put in a mil spec airsoft buffer tube in there (yes they do exist) the BCG cannot enter the buffer tube and works perfectly for .22lr conversions provided thats all you are going to be using the gun for or a single shot top loader which doesn't not qualify for registration.
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  #9  
Old 08-15-2017, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by protohyp View Post
plug the buffer tube or put in a mil spec airsoft buffer tube in there (yes they do exist) the BCG cannot enter the buffer tube and works perfectly for .22lr conversions provided thats all you are going to be using the gun for or a single shot top loader which doesn't not qualify for registration.
now that makes perfect sense.
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  #10  
Old 08-15-2017, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowThudd View Post
The law specifically states that an AR with the upper removed is NOT an AW. However, nowhere in the regs does it say that a conversion kit makes the gun not an AW. All that is needed to convert it back is to remove the kit and put a centerfire BCG in.

I would not risk my freedom on the gamble that a LEO or a prosecutor will see things your way. But, YMMV
But it does say "A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle" which it is not.

True you can convert it back, but a rifle set up with a drop in 22 BCG kit does not qualify. Use your common sense and if yours is set up that way don't have a center fire BCG or 5.56 ammo sitting on the bench beside it at the range.

If you want to be super careful, there are inserts (pressure plugs) you can stick in front of the buffer and will block a CF BCG from being able to chamber a round. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...ty-enhancement

I will come right out and say this. I have a bunch of early clone M16's and I have ceiner .22 kits installed in each one to avoid registration. They are also fun to shoot that way.

Last edited by swiftone; 08-15-2017 at 12:43 PM..
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  #11  
Old 08-15-2017, 1:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftone View Post
But it does say "A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle" which it is not.

True you can convert it back, but a rifle set up with a drop in 22 BCG kit does not qualify. Use your common sense and if yours is set up that way don't have a center fire BCG or 5.56 ammo sitting on the bench beside it at the range.

If you want to be super careful, there are inserts (pressure plugs) you can stick in front of the buffer and will block a CF BCG from being able to chamber a round. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...ty-enhancement

I will come right out and say this. I have a bunch of early clone M16's and I have ceiner .22 kits installed in each one to avoid registration. They are also fun to shoot that way.
You are assuming there is logic involved in the prosecutor. You are wrong. All they need to know is that the firearm can be made to fire a centerfire round in as little as a minute. I think going with a dummy tube, as suggested, is the best policy.

You are rationalizing your decision. However, that does not mean everyone will see it that way. It IS a gamble what you are suggesting.
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  #12  
Old 08-15-2017, 1:35 PM
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This is the easiest way to have a .22lr/single shot top loader. Enjoy


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  #13  
Old 08-15-2017, 1:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowThudd View Post
You are assuming there is logic involved in the prosecutor. You are wrong. All they need to know is that the firearm can be made to fire a centerfire round in as little as a minute. I think going with a dummy tube, as suggested, is the best policy.

You are rationalizing your decision. However, that does not mean everyone will see it that way. It IS a gamble what you are suggesting.
You can convert anything with enough time and parts.

These are .22 caliber rim fire rifles as built with the appropriate parts. They will not chamber, fire, nor accept center fire magazines as they are set up. I install a block behind my recoil spring in my buffer tube to enhance the operation of the 22 bolt and this also serves to keep a CF carrier from working.

As far as prosecution, I will take my chances when shooting my .22 rim fire rifles.

Lets just agree to disagree.

Last edited by swiftone; 08-15-2017 at 1:47 PM..
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  #14  
Old 08-15-2017, 1:46 PM
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protohyp:

I like the idea. But I would still worry an overzealous DA would say that the spring and buffer are easy to put back into the tube, regardless of the fact that there is no retainer.

I really don't understand why risking seems like a good plan. Rather than trying to assume what a LEO/DA might consider "Good Enough", why not make it impossible to readily be made a SACF firearm without removing the buffer tube. IE, a dummy tube, or a completely blocked tube with no spring/buffer. Just get a wood dowel the size of the buffer tube ID, install in tube in a way that it cannot be readily removed without removing the tube.

Last edited by LowThudd; 08-15-2017 at 1:51 PM..
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  #15  
Old 08-15-2017, 1:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftone View Post
You can convert anything with enough time and parts.

These are .22 caliber rim fire rifles as built with the appropriate parts. They will not chamber, fire, nor accept center fire magazines as they are set up.

As far as prosecution, I will take my chances when shooting my .22 rim fire rifles.

Lets just agree to disagree.
But that is just it. You told SOME ONE ELSE what you assume to be legal.

You are obviously free to do as you like, but unless you are a lawyer, you are NOT just taking your chances by giving such advice.

IMHO, it is best to err on the side of caution, when we are talking about a felony.

Edit: You edited while I was responding. You did not mention blocking the buffer to the OP. That is obviously a different story.
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  #16  
Old 08-15-2017, 2:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowThudd View Post
But that is just it. You told SOME ONE ELSE what you assume to be legal.

You are obviously free to do as you like, but unless you are a lawyer, you are NOT just taking your chances by giving such advice.

IMHO, it is best to err on the side of caution, when we are talking about a felony.

Edit: You edited while I was responding. You did not mention blocking the buffer to the OP. That is obviously a different story.
I still believe the bolt itself is sufficient. It makes the gun a rim fire and unable to shoot or chamber a center fire round. I installed the blocks because I was given a few and they seem to work.

Look, I am not going to change your mind and you will not change mine. Lets go shooting someday and have a coffee when we finish. I am sure we might find something in common to talk about. Maybe how 9 is greater then 45 acp...
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  #17  
Old 08-15-2017, 2:18 PM
Garand Hunter Garand Hunter is offline
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Have you read the regs as published and approved ? No centerfire BCG, no
centerfire ability exists. Your reasoning overlooks that even registered you if
you are up to it, can remove the BB, drop in a full auto sear etc. Follow the
regs as published until the court challenges run their course. Its on your own
honor or the lack thereof that matters. As for any assumptions by anyone,
read the regs as published and approved. Then do what you want to do.

Psalm 1
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  #18  
Old 08-15-2017, 2:36 PM
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Lol at further butchering your lawfully aquired property beyond what is required by the DOJ's illegal underground regulations... "Why not cut your receiver in half and bury the bolt carrier in the Mojave? You'd be sure to be okay then!"
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  #19  
Old 08-15-2017, 3:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garand Hunter View Post
Have you read the regs as published and approved ? No centerfire BCG, no
centerfire ability exists.
Your reasoning overlooks that even registered you if
you are up to it, can remove the BB, drop in a full auto sear etc. Follow the
regs as published until the court challenges run their course. Its on your own
honor or the lack thereof that matters. As for any assumptions by anyone,
read the regs as published and approved. Then do what you want to do.

Psalm 1
It is very possible I am wrong and unless we get case law showing otherwise I will continue to follow the regulations as approved and believe a installed 22 rim fire bolt is sufficient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAsubject View Post
Lol at further butchering your lawfully aquired property beyond what is required by the DOJ's illegal underground regulations... "Why not cut your receiver in half and bury the bolt carrier in the Mojave? You'd be sure to be okay then!"
Well, because the 22 bolts are fun and inexpensive. My M16 clones all are a 1/12 twist barrel (one is a 1 in 14 which is even better) which makes the 22 LR round a perfect one to shoot. I don't call that butchering my property. And as LowThudd has pointed out, it is reversible.
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Old 08-15-2017, 4:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftone View Post
It is very possible I am wrong and unless we get case law showing otherwise I will continue to follow the regulations as approved and believe a installed 22 rim fire bolt is sufficient.



Well, because the 22 bolts are fun and inexpensive. My M16 clones all are a 1/12 twist barrel (one is a 1 in 14 which is even better) which makes the 22 LR round a perfect one to shoot. I don't call that butchering my property. And as LowThudd has pointed out, it is reversible.
That wasn't aimed at you, bud. It was aimed at those telling you that wasn't enough.
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  #21  
Old 08-15-2017, 5:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowThudd View Post
protohyp:

I like the idea. But I would still worry an overzealous DA would say that the spring and buffer are easy to put back into the tube, regardless of the fact that there is no retainer.

I really don't understand why risking seems like a good plan. Rather than trying to assume what a LEO/DA might consider "Good Enough", why not make it impossible to readily be made a SACF firearm without removing the buffer tube. IE, a dummy tube, or a completely blocked tube with no spring/buffer. Just get a wood dowel the size of the buffer tube ID, install in tube in a way that it cannot be readily removed without removing the tube.


If you look at the picture there is no way a buffer can fit in there nor a spring. When I say milspec airsoft it means that it can thread into a standard lower receiver and accept a castle nut and butt plate. But there is no way a BCG, buffer or spring are going in to the buffer tube that is shown in the picture


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  #22  
Old 08-15-2017, 5:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by protohyp View Post
If you look at the picture there is no way a buffer can fit in there nor a spring. When I say milspec airsoft it means that it can thread into a standard lower receiver and accept a castle nut and butt plate. But there is no way a BCG, buffer or spring are going in to the buffer tube that is shown in the picture


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Sorry. I didn't realize that was an airsoft tube. My mistake.
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  #23  
Old 08-15-2017, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
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But that is just it. ........

IMHO, it is best to err on the side of caution......
I'm consistently flabbergasted by the shortage of strong spinal cords on this forum. Is this site nothing but 80-yo men, sitting in wheelchairs, shaking like leaves and waiting to die?

If I didn't know better, I'd swear almost every single man on this forum had been:
(1) Arrested for a minor gun-related technicality
(2) Had his entire collection of guns and ammo taken away and destroyed
(3) Thrown in prison for 10 years in a Federal Pound-Me-in-the-*** Prison.
(4) Sodomized 5000 times in jail, all because he forgot about that "AR without the bullet button."

I don't know precisely who you people are, who live day-to-day in constant fear of your own shadows, but I do know there's no way in he** you're the direct descendants of the men who won WW2 for the USA.
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  #24  
Old 08-15-2017, 11:51 PM
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This is a dedicated .22lr "Modern Sporting Rifle".
Dedicated .22lr complete upper.
Cannot chamber any cartridge larger.
Decided to go dedicated rather than converting a different upper. Make it as efficient as possible.
A really fun gun to shoot. A great way to introduce new shooters to the sport.
Next to a Ruger 10/22, only difference is the shape.

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  #25  
Old 08-16-2017, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertkjjj View Post
I'm consistently flabbergasted by the shortage of strong spinal cords on this forum. Is this site nothing but 80-yo men, sitting in wheelchairs, shaking like leaves and waiting to die?

If I didn't know better, I'd swear almost every single man on this forum had been:
(1) Arrested for a minor gun-related technicality
(2) Had his entire collection of guns and ammo taken away and destroyed
(3) Thrown in prison for 10 years in a Federal Pound-Me-in-the-*** Prison.
(4) Sodomized 5000 times in jail, all because he forgot about that "AR without the bullet button."

I don't know precisely who you people are, who live day-to-day in constant fear of your own shadows, but I do know there's no way in he** you're the direct descendants of the men who won WW2 for the USA.

This!
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Old 08-16-2017, 6:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertkjjj View Post
I'm consistently flabbergasted by the shortage of strong spinal cords on this forum. Is this site nothing but 80-yo men, sitting in wheelchairs, shaking like leaves and waiting to die?

If I didn't know better, I'd swear almost every single man on this forum had been:
(1) Arrested for a minor gun-related technicality
(2) Had his entire collection of guns and ammo taken away and destroyed
(3) Thrown in prison for 10 years in a Federal Pound-Me-in-the-*** Prison.
(4) Sodomized 5000 times in jail, all because he forgot about that "AR without the bullet button."

I don't know precisely who you people are, who live day-to-day in constant fear of your own shadows, but I do know there's no way in he** you're the direct descendants of the men who won WW2 for the USA.
100%, it's disgusting. I've always thought some of these people were possibly spreading fear propaganda on purpose. I bet it's a part of some socializing experiment to get people to go with these draconian laws without so much as a whimper.
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  #27  
Old 08-16-2017, 7:04 AM
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Well, you have to recognize that the DOJ has a camera in everyone's safe on a 24/7 feed.

I have said a few times here and will say it again. I installed a rim fire kit in my clone guns to avoid registration. I believe the law as written allows for this. I started collecting the .22 kits back when LeLand Yee (Rememebr him?) started talking CF registration.
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  #28  
Old 08-16-2017, 9:35 AM
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My CF capable .22LR selected upper has been converted featureless as have the lowers. I don't worry about this stuff anymore.
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  #29  
Old 08-16-2017, 10:12 AM
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The DOJ regulations are pretty clear about what constitutes an AW. A .22 conversion cannot accept a centerfire cartridge, period. There is no constructive possession in the law, period. Since you have to disassemble the firearm to change bolt carriers per the AW regulations, you are in compliance and do not have an AW unless you break the law and throw a 223 bolt carrier in the upper and then attach it to a featured lower. This is not even vague per the DOJ's BS regulations and even the most dishonest DA can't make your .22 rifle an AW.
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  #30  
Old 08-16-2017, 3:19 PM
Garand Hunter Garand Hunter is offline
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Ditto


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