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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 05-02-2017, 10:05 PM
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Default So let's say microstamling dies...what about all the other lame California rules?

I recently bought a M&P Shield California model. This model is significantly different than the other guns on the roster. There is that bullet indicator to show that it is loaded and you cannot pull the trigger unless the magazine is inserted into the gun. Are these roster rules still going to be in effect if the roster is shut down?

I'm thinking we're not going to have many new guns coming into the market with the fall of microstamping because manufacturers was still had to adhere to all the other stupid California rules. California editions will trickle in very slowly and painfully.

I'm hoping I'm wrong on this. Someone set me straight.

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Old 05-02-2017, 10:18 PM
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California will never be gun friendly. These laws are just the beginning.
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Old 05-03-2017, 4:19 AM
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Originally Posted by BrotherSharp View Post
I recently bought a M&P Shield California model. This model is significantly different than the other guns on the roster. There is that bullet indicator to show that it is loaded and you cannot pull the trigger unless the magazine is inserted into the gun. Are these roster rules still going to be in effect if the roster is shut down?

I'm thinking we're not going to have many new guns coming into the market with the fall of microstamping because manufacturers was still had to adhere to all the other stupid California rules. California editions will trickle in very slowly and painfully.

I'm hoping I'm wrong on this. Someone set me straight.

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Yes, CA sucks for firearms, and it will continue down the toilet.

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Old 05-03-2017, 4:51 AM
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You're not wrong. The voter base spoke it's mind about guns with Prop 63. The result of Prop 63 will empower CA legislators to further pursue anti-gun bills. In a sick way, they're technically doing their job: representing the majority of their constituents, who so happen to be low information urbanites residing in the bay area and south of the grape vine.
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Old 05-03-2017, 5:36 AM
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Roster shutdown,when is this happening?
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Old 05-03-2017, 6:53 AM
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You're not wrong. The vote counters and their base spoke it's mind about guns with Prop 63. ....
Fixed it for you
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Old 05-03-2017, 7:04 AM
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The original roster challenge was filed way before the microstamping was integrated into the overall scheme so the core of the complaint is having roster in general, not just about microstamping.

There is some speculation that the court could strike down *only* the microstamping requirement of the roster, but that's just that - a speculation. We won't know until we see the decision. More importantly, this case is likely to go to SCOTUS so we have couple more years until it's resolved for good.
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Old 05-03-2017, 7:15 AM
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Many manufacturers complied with the loaded chamber in indicator and magazine disconector requirements. These where minor modifications that could easily be accommodated. Micro stamping is failed technogy the manufactures have rejected as such. Get rid of microstsmping and new models of handguns can and will be introduced in the state.
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Old 05-03-2017, 8:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Rusty_Shackleferd View Post
You're not wrong. The voter base spoke it's mind about guns with Prop 63. The result of Prop 63 will empower CA legislators to further pursue anti-gun bills. In a sick way, they're technically doing their job: representing the majority of their constituents, who so happen to be low information urbanites residing in the bay area and south of the grape vine.
Actually they're not doing their job. They are manipulating facts and statistics to make an argument to vote yes on these tyrannical laws that clearly violate the constitution
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Old 05-03-2017, 8:38 AM
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Actually they're not doing their job. They are manipulating facts and statistics to make an argument to vote yes on these tyrannical laws that clearly violate the constitution
The current benchmark for a "good" legislator is one that passes more laws than anybody else. So they are doing their "job".
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Old 05-03-2017, 8:44 AM
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The California 'rules' will *never* die except by court order because it is in the state government's DNA. The courts are slow and risky.
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Old 05-03-2017, 9:01 AM
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The California 'rules' will *never* die except by court order because it is in the state government's DNA. The courts are slow and risky.
If the courts give the citizens of California a favorable judgement, expect the exact same treatment of the judicial decision as DC gave Heller and chicago gave McDonald, namely, they pretty much ignored it all and just rewrote the exact same laws with different wording, but the same outcome. Statists gonna state.
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Old 05-03-2017, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Blade Gunner View Post
Many manufacturers complied with the loaded chamber in indicator and magazine disconector requirements. These where minor modifications that could easily be accommodated. Micro stamping is failed technogy the manufactures have rejected as such. Get rid of microstsmping and new models of handguns can and will be introduced in the state.
I dont hold too much hope, but would be pleased if this somehow happened, and agree with the outcome. Many firearms manufacturers already meet all requirements OTHER than microstamping. but since the end-game is to prevent any guns from being sold in CA, any movement to potentially ADD any gun to the roster will be fought tooth and nail.

I feel that if for some reason a company implemented a microstamping gun, the state would somehow add a new less-realistic requirement, like "All handguns must imprint a microscopic trace of plutonium so that Law Enforcement Officers can locate lost shells used in a crime using a Geiger counter.....
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Old 05-03-2017, 11:32 AM
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If the courts give the citizens of California a favorable judgement, expect the exact same treatment of the judicial decision as DC gave Heller and chicago gave McDonald, namely, they pretty much ignored it all and just rewrote the exact same laws with different wording, but the same outcome. Statists gonna state.


Congratulations! You win the award for making me the most depressed. Sounds like we would have better luck turning the state red than getting fair gun laws.

Colorado is looking really good.


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  #15  
Old 05-03-2017, 11:57 AM
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...shall not be infringed...

The CA legislative and judicial cancer to the 2A needs to be excised as it is an individual right.
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Old 05-03-2017, 12:01 PM
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Congratulations! You win the award for making me the most depressed. Sounds like we would have better luck turning the state red than getting fair gun laws.

Colorado is looking really good BLUE.


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Colorado is quickly turning a shade of blue, much like other states such as Oregon, Washington, Montana.......
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Old 05-03-2017, 12:06 PM
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You're not wrong. The voter base spoke it's mind about guns with Prop 63. The result of Prop 63 will empower CA legislators to further pursue anti-gun bills. In a sick way, they're technically doing their job: representing the majority of their constituents, who so happen to be low information urbanites residing in the bay area and south of the grape vine.
Civil rights are not to be put to a popular vote. Nazi's get to march in Skoki not because we want them to but it is protected speech. Gun rights are the same. If everyone but one person in California wanted to out law guns and ammunition that one person would still have the right to own a gun and buy ammunition.
While I agree the statehouse if full of idiots. Untill we can find a way to put the cost of fighting our court battles on those idiots they will continue. I would suggest a economic ballot intitive. Something like loser pays with pain and suffering. If the state passes a law that is later found unconstitutional we must be able to sue for all court costs and a penalty. Preferably it would target the district of the bill sponsors as to a lesser degree the ones that voted for it. Keeping it ties to civil rights at large could help to get general support.
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  #18  
Old 05-03-2017, 12:24 PM
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Colorado is quickly turning a shade of blue, much like other states such as Oregon, Washington, Montana.......
No. We voted down single payer medical overwhelmingly, and after the two (yes only two) laws were passed, the democrats lost part of the legislature, and the laws are actively NOT enforced throughout the state.
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Old 05-03-2017, 12:27 PM
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Congratulations! You win the award for making me the most depressed. Sounds like we would have better luck turning the state red than getting fair gun laws.

Colorado is looking really good.


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You'll love it, just avoid Denver and Boulder. The sheriff in my county puts on the concealed carry class for free at the police station, all you get charged is the state fee, and constitutional carry is introduced every year. Open carry is legal pretty much everywhere and supressors are on sale at the local hardware store right next to every handgun you can imagine.
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Old 05-03-2017, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by NorCalGlock9 View Post
Actually they're not doing their job. They are manipulating facts and statistics to make an argument to vote yes on these tyrannical laws that clearly violate the constitution
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Originally Posted by Rusty_Shackleferd View Post
You're not wrong. The voter base spoke it's mind about guns with Prop 63. The result of Prop 63 will empower CA legislators to further pursue anti-gun bills. In a sick way, they're technically doing their job: representing the majority of their constituents, who so happen to be low information urbanites residing in the bay area and south of the grape vine.
While I personally believe that some anti-gun legislators actually are pro-gun, they also know how to get elected. The simple truth is that the anti-guns voters are coming out by the masses and making their voices heard; the pro-guns voters are simply too subdued in their voices and too frustrated to vote. The legislators know this, so they're going to say what they need to say to get the office.
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Old 05-03-2017, 1:19 PM
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the pro-guns voters are simply too subdued in their voices and too frustrated to vote. The legislators know this, so they're going to say what they need to say to get the office.
no, based upon the volunteer's stories when trying to get signatures for the petition to stop prop 63 and the other anti-gun laws last year, many guns owners are tin foil hat wearing crazies or lazy idiots that don't vote nor are they registered to vote.

registration of D's outnumber R's in this state. that is fact.

anything anti-gun put to public vote, will be approved.
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Old 05-03-2017, 6:53 PM
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Let's say they repeal the law of gravity. Where will you fly to?

This is kalifornia. Nothing will matter or change even if the courts throw everything out. They'll ignore it. Or rewrite worse laws, with slightly different language. Doesn't matter. It'll take another two decades through the courts. We are peasants and our role is to obey our rulers.
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Old 05-03-2017, 7:33 PM
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You'll love it, just avoid Denver and Boulder. The sheriff in my county puts on the concealed carry class for free at the police station, all you get charged is the state fee, and constitutional carry is introduced every year. Open carry is legal pretty much everywhere and supressors are on sale at the local hardware store right next to every handgun you can imagine.
Oh, it's Colorado springs for me. I want to check out Castle rock too. But I think that is only because of the movie "stand by me"

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Old 05-03-2017, 8:01 PM
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Oh, it's Colorado springs for me. I want to check out Castle rock too. But I think that is only because of the movie "stand by me"

That was filmed in Oregon (mostly Brownsville). And Castle Rock is a fictitious town in Maine that Stephen King sets many of his books in.
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Old 05-03-2017, 8:07 PM
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California will never be gun friendly. These laws are just the beginning.
it stopped being gun friendly in 1989. It's complete hostility will 100% from now on.
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Old 05-03-2017, 9:32 PM
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Roster shutdown,when is this happening?
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Old 05-03-2017, 9:41 PM
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Oh, it's Colorado springs for me. I want to check out Castle rock too. But I think that is only because of the movie "stand by me"

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Either is good. I'm about 40 minutes due east of Castle Rock. I avoid the front range. Too crowded. Kiowa has 800 people and I live 8 miles away because I think it's too crowded too.
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Old 05-03-2017, 9:53 PM
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Civil rights are not to be put to a popular vote. Nazi's get to march in Skoki not because we want them to but it is protected speech. Gun rights are the same. If everyone but one person in California wanted to out law guns and ammunition that one person would still have the right to own a gun and buy ammunition.
While I agree the statehouse if full of idiots. Untill we can find a way to put the cost of fighting our court battles on those idiots they will continue. I would suggest a economic ballot intitive. Something like loser pays with pain and suffering. If the state passes a law that is later found unconstitutional we must be able to sue for all court costs and a penalty. Preferably it would target the district of the bill sponsors as to a lesser degree the ones that voted for it. Keeping it ties to civil rights at large could help to get general support.
I agree. Gun rights are civil rights, and my civil rights are not subject to a popular vote, nor are they subject to the whims of a politician who happens not to like a particular civil right.
We in CA have run out of the normal legal options. Each year becomes worse and worse. Sacramento has become a dictatorship. All the Dems hate guns, and the GOP is outnumbered almost 5:1 in this state. The future appears worse than the past, and there is no light at the end of this tunnel.
There seems to be two remaining options: (1) Leave the state, OR (2) Remain, and regularly practice mass disobedience and defiance.
I cannot envision staying and submitting to these dictators in Sacramento. People who think they have the right to be tyrants, and take away my civil rights, are not fit, nor qualified, to be my leaders.
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Old 05-03-2017, 10:07 PM
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Option (1) I chose. Life is good
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Old 05-03-2017, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by njineermike View Post
You'll love it, just avoid Denver and Boulder. The sheriff in my county puts on the concealed carry class for free at the police station, all you get charged is the state fee, and constitutional carry is introduced every year. Open carry is legal pretty much everywhere and supressors are on sale at the local hardware store right next to every handgun you can imagine.
Kind of like Ca is great as long as they avoid LA and San Fran? I see a pattern..... Unfortunately, Co is rapidly changing

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Old 05-04-2017, 6:54 AM
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Kind of like Ca is great as long as they avoid LA and San Fran? I see a pattern..... Unfortunately, Co is rapidly changing
2 relatively minor anti gun laws got passed, which cost politicians jobs' immediately in recalls and the loss of the state senate, and its "rapid change"? You do realize Colorado has always been bipartisan (look at the list of governors or who they voted for in presidential elections previously), and it was only the fact that there was a single party control AND the aurora shooting that allowed that to happen AND it cost them dearly. Colorado is pretty much the same as its always been. The whole "blueprint" thing only lasted about a term. Don't believe the hype.
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Old 05-04-2017, 9:25 AM
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Many manufacturers complied with the loaded chamber in indicator and magazine disconector requirements. These where minor modifications that could easily be accommodated.
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Originally Posted by Maximus924 View Post
Many firearms manufacturers already meet all requirements OTHER than microstamping.
I wouldn't put too much faith into this line of thinking.

The LCI requirement evolved over time into abominations we find on Sigs. Remember that CA is making a distinction between LCI (loaded chamber indicator) and CLI (chamber load indicator), so it can be further abused by changing the requirement into something technically impossible, e.g., requiring the gun to give you a verbal warning that the round is chambered every 5 seconds in voice no quieter than XY decibels, heard up to 2 miles in any direction, etc...

We need these artificial constraints to go because they are unconstitutional, not engage in the discussion of how inconvenient they are. What is the justification for requiring LCI and magazine disconnect again? Why is neither of these "safety features" included in any part of training of any agency, any civilian program, not even in the "safety material" that we all have to pass before getting our "good boy certificates" to purchase guns?
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Old 05-04-2017, 9:31 AM
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I agree. Gun rights are civil rights, and my civil rights are not subject to a popular vote, nor are they subject to the whims of a politician who happens not to like a particular civil right.
That's the idea. The only problem is that the courts are becoming the extension of the politicians and courts are the only place where we can enforce civil rights in a functioning society.

Now is the time to start stacking up courts with ideologues and politicians who are right leaning. The same way Obama appointed a bundler and political minion to the federal court in S.F., who happens to be the judge granting preliminary injunction against Trump's sanctuary city EO. We need to do the same, principles be damned. Otherwise, we'll lose in the long run. We need to be in position to go "judge shopping" if Democrats try for another national AWB so we can get injunctions left and right...

Until we rebalance this judicial mess we're at a serious disadvantage when it comes to the court protection of our gun rights. It's just reality.
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Old 05-04-2017, 9:47 AM
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Old 05-04-2017, 11:09 AM
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That's the idea. The only problem is that the courts are becoming the extension of the politicians and courts are the only place where we can enforce civil rights in a functioning society.

Now is the time to start stacking up courts with ideologues and politicians who are right leaning. The same way Obama appointed a bundler and political minion to the federal court in S.F., who happens to be the judge granting preliminary injunction against Trump's sanctuary city EO. We need to do the same, principles be damned. Otherwise, we'll lose in the long run. We need to be in position to go "judge shopping" if Democrats try for another national AWB so we can get injunctions left and right...

Until we rebalance this judicial mess we're at a serious disadvantage when it comes to the court protection of our gun rights. It's just reality.

So I think this is another point to add to the list of issues that need to be brought up to the faces of liberal courts and law makers! You simply can't stomp your feet upon civil liberties granted by the constitution! So sick of the crap that either move out if you want freedom or stay and not obey. Look at the recent crap in Illinois! This liberal sickness will only spread more and more if not stopped! Sad really sad!
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  #36  
Old 05-04-2017, 11:14 AM
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I wouldn't put too much faith into this line of thinking.

The LCI requirement evolved over time into abominations we find on Sigs. Remember that CA is making a distinction between LCI (loaded chamber indicator) and CLI (chamber load indicator), ...
How many handgun models have an LCI, and of them, how many of them would be CA compliant should microstamping fall?

I remember reading that the LCI needs to be a certain size, for one, and it may also require writing.
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Old 05-04-2017, 11:26 AM
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How many handgun models have an LCI, and of them, how many of them would be CA compliant should microstamping fall?

I remember reading that the LCI needs to be a certain size, for one, and it may also require writing.
Look at the "CA approved Sigs" and it will let you know everything there is to know about what the "new and improved" CA requirements are.

I've seen some really gaudy guns come out of the Sig's custom shop, but even they wouldn't put the silly letters and arrows next to the shark fin unless they were forced. Picture Glocks with those slides, as well as having degraded triggers because of the magazine disconnect that needed to be stuffed somewhere there.
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Old 05-04-2017, 11:40 AM
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We need to make our own Calguns motion picture production company and make us all propmasters, then use that collective to sponsor popular youtube channels. Then politicians and voters and will try to close THAT exemption too and Hollywood will turn around. Right? RIGHT? ... ok probably not.
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Old 05-04-2017, 11:59 AM
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If the removal of microstamping is all walked away and accept it, we got played and lost.


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Old 05-04-2017, 12:19 PM
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Manufacturers were coming out with a good number of models that conformed with mag disconnect and loaded chamber indicator rules prior to microstamping going into effect. That would resume if/when CA drops microstamping.

Arguing against mag disconnect and loaded chamber indicator is going to be hard with a large number of models available and the features being relatively easy to implement.
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