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  #41  
Old 12-23-2012, 9:42 AM
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Go talk to the dealer and give him the opportunity to fix the situation.

Stay calm.

If the dealer does not make it right, simply state in the calmest terms that you have started this thread, it has been viewed by xxxxx number of people, and you are going to name the shop. Further, you will be posting your experiences on Yelp and will be contacting BBB.

Stay calm.

See if this changes anything. If not, be prepared to follow through with your stated intent.

.
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  #42  
Old 12-23-2012, 9:57 AM
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Default Gun resold during 10 day wait

They wont be open until Wednesday. Nothing stopping them from screwing anyone with a pending 10 day in the vault. Throwing up their name today won't matter as they can't screw you until Wednesday officially. Also, they still have my cash. Taking a refund was letting them out. My original receipt shows SN. They are aware they are taking a chance by screwing any customers like this. Douche Nozzles yes, the gun most likely will be gone by Wednesday. I'm sure they will open the shop on their vacation just to get it out of there. Even if its still there they just have to say its not. Biggest bargaining chip is their name. They offered me a choice of one of two builds and some cash. They still keep the profit from "My Gun" and still make money on the build they F me with. Not what I want, I agree fair market value would work for me, but that is unlikely if they are willing to go this far. Went to pick it up on borrowed time from work, had to think quick clearly not my strong suit. Then needed input, never been F'd by a gun shop. Always had good dealings, guess I've been lucky until now.
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  #43  
Old 12-23-2012, 10:17 AM
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Funny but these threads did exist before all this recent nonsense. Mistakes do happen, and why would you think the increase in price from your so special rifle would be worth it, but the dozens (or hundreds) of others that the store sold too wouldn't?

You're mad, you're upset. and yes you're screwed - sorry - but sh*t happens. Go get your refund, and wait until this BS panic buying blows over - or - work it out with the store. See if they'll raincheck you the gun for the same price.
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  #44  
Old 12-23-2012, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
shady gun shops rarely go out of business.
Back in the 1980's I wound up putting a shady dealer out of business and he was federally prosecuted. It was kind of a fluke, but I had built up an AMT Longslide .45 that was in my name having been purchased prior to the time when I had my FFL. When I sold the gun, I transferred it into my bound-book and wound up transferring it to another dealer (whose FFL I was required to keep a copy of).

About a year after the sale, I was contacted by the SDPD as they had arrested a (felony) parolee and he had the gun under the seat in his car. I explained to the officer that I was a dealer and had transferred it to another 01 holder - even though state DOJ records still shown it registered to me. I mailed the copy of that dealers FFL and a copy of the transfer entry in my log to the SDPD which in turn they forwarded the info to the BATF for prosecution.

As it turned out, the FFL dealer I transferred to was selling guns illegally without paperwork to anyone who was willing to pay his price. He wound up getting convicted on federal gun charges, but I don't know how long of a vacation he got, just heard that he did get rolled up.

To be honest, I really never thought that anyone with an FFL would chance operating like that. I don't see how he couldn't have realized that it would come back on him at some point.
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  #45  
Old 12-23-2012, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
Ok, let me first of all state I am not supporting what this guy did. I sold my lowers for $150 for two days before I finally realized they were still going to sell to all of the people I have never seen before in my shop for $225 all the same.

However, you guys need an education on how to properly handle this as it is evident that you guys are about to waste a lot of your time.

First, the gun does not belong to you until you take delivery. If that were true, then the state could never deny you or put you on delay. Further, if you come in to pick up and start talking about offing your wife or how your buddy really wanted you to buy the gun because he is prohibited, it is common knowledge the shop would cancel (or at least should) the transaction right then and there.

So all of these desires to report it stolen and report it to the alphabet agencies are pointless. Absolutely pointless. No one from any of those places are going to care nor was a crime even committed.

The only traction you might have is if you can find somewhere in the business code where the seller might have some sort of contractual obligation to you. One other chance might be if you paid by credit card there might be some sort of credit card issuer rules about what the dealer did.

If you cannot find any of these things, there is nothing you can do. You can try and take it to court, but that is going to cost you money. And if the dealer is smart, they will stick to their story. How will you prove it otherwise? Subpoena their financial documents and show they sold it to another guy for more? Maybe.

Probably the best thing you could do is out the shop and warn everyone what they are doing. That is about it. However, in this current market, it won't hurt them that much. Like I just said. Almost all of the business I had this week was with completely new customers. If I screwed one of them over, most of the other customers I have would never hear about it on Calguns nor anywhere else.

Again, I would not do that to a gun in DROS and certainly not to a regular customer. I am not defending the guy's actions, I am trying to help you be smarter and more educated Calgunners.


This is actually incorrect. The gun was yours as soon as the other guy shipped it. For shipping firearms, once the payment is received and the item is shipped, it belongs to you. I know this from the Fulton Armory debacle back in 2005.

However, at my gun store where I own the merchandise, the gun is not yours until I deliver it. I could even get crooked and claim I thought it was a straw purchase. Something just didn't seem right about you. So I canceled the DROS and gave you a full refund.

What your dealer did was effectively bluffed the seller. That is all you guys would be doing if you tried any of these tactics on this dealer. Give them a try. They might work. My guess is your gun is long gone and he couldn't replace it even if he was scared he was going to go to jail.
MRS has a verbal contract with the dealer, evidenced by his sales receipt and DROS started. Verbal contracts are fully enforceable. The dealer offered the rifle for sale and MRS accepted, agreed to his price and paid his money. They both agreed to the sale. The Dealer is under obligation to provide said rifle. The OP can sue him in court and have the contract enforced which can include specific performance (ie, dealer can be forced to retrieve the rifle from who ever has it and provide it to OP) or some other way that makes the buyer whole and is agreeable to the OP (I would go to gun broker and try to find what the market value of his rifle is today and ask for that amount if the dealer can't provide the specific rifle. Hopefully it has tripled in price!). Bottom line is, it is a contract and enforceable. The problem with a lawsuit is, the time, money and hassle that comes along with it. Try to work out a solution with the dealer. But bring up a lawsuit when you talk to him if he is unwilling to make you whole.

Also, from what the OP said, that it has happened before, sounds like the dealer is a dirt bag and found out he can make more money by saying "ooppps.....sorry we made a mistake, too bad so sad"
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  #46  
Old 12-23-2012, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by five.five-six View Post
i am going with this ^^^^^

as he claims to have been screwed and wont name the shop to protect others....
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  #47  
Old 12-23-2012, 10:52 AM
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This entire post doesn't make sense OP. You DROSed the AR you bought, and had to wait the 10 day period. So someone else DROSed it AFTER you and got to pick it up before?!
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  #48  
Old 12-23-2012, 10:56 AM
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This entire post doesn't make sense OP. You DROSed the AR you bought, and had to wait the 10 day period. So someone else DROSed it AFTER you and got to pick it up before?!
Thats where Im at too. Doesnt make sense.
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  #49  
Old 12-23-2012, 11:09 AM
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Wes is right. I'm a new dealer so I'm not perfect on procedure but I can tell you that long gun serial numbers are not transmitted through DROS. I wouldn't record the transfer in my A&D book until the pickup in case the buyer was denied, changed their mind, etc. I'm not 100% sure when the serial number is recorded on the 4473. I've been writing it in when I make a sale but that document I for dealer use. Not sure of what recourse is available but I suspect the answer is none.
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  #50  
Old 12-23-2012, 11:23 AM
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I once purchased a long gun and then had to switch out for another identical one. I bought a Marlin 795, they misplaced the one I bought, so simply grabbed another one. The serial number on my receipt was changed, and I'm sure they recorded it correctly in their book once the final transfer was done. This was done on the day of pickup, after the DROS and 10-day wait.

Not exactly the same situation, but since long guns don't record serial numbers on the DROS, at least until 2014, it's not a DOJ/ATF matter so far as I can tell.

Unlikely you'll get a criminal finding. Reporting to the DOJ or ATF may raise some flags and get them audited. Otherwise, the situation you report sounds like a civil matter to me.
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  #51  
Old 12-23-2012, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by HK Dave View Post
This entire post doesn't make sense OP. You DROSed the AR you bought, and had to wait the 10 day period. So someone else DROSed it AFTER you and got to pick it up before?!
Perhaps someone picking up the rifle decided to add it to their dros when the panic hit. Thanks ouod explain why they picked it up first. Is it a one man operation or could another employee accidentally sold it?
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  #52  
Old 12-23-2012, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Toby's Tactical View Post
Wes is right. I'm a new dealer so I'm not perfect on procedure but I can tell you that long gun serial numbers are not transmitted through DROS. I wouldn't record the transfer in my A&D book until the pickup in case the buyer was denied, changed their mind, etc. I'm not 100% sure when the serial number is recorded on the 4473. I've been writing it in when I make a sale but that document I for dealer use. Not sure of what recourse is available but I suspect the answer is none.
As a new dealer, decide what kind of business you want to be. Honest or dishonest. Doesn't matter what the regulations for being a FFL are, it matters how you treat you customers and what stipulations you have when you make a sale. A contract is a contract is a contract. You accept money from a customer for a firearm, its a enforceable contract. Just because the vast majority of people don't understand this and simply complain and walk away doesn't mean you are not under obligation. If you sold me anything and then go back on your word, it gives me standing to sue you.

I am not a lawyer but maybe a simple sign put up in your store such as "We are idiots and can't keep proper records, all sales final when a customer receives merchandise" might suffice. Be sure and put "Idiots" in it, it gives fair warning to potential customers.
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  #53  
Old 12-23-2012, 12:14 PM
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Same thing happened to me at Cold War Shooters a while back. "Come back in another 10 days for another one". I live an hour away(if there's no traffic). The only "here's a little something for your troubles..." I got was "whatever, it happens. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm busy..."

Haven't been back since.
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  #54  
Old 12-23-2012, 12:17 PM
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In for the conclusion on Wednesday, good luck OP
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  #55  
Old 12-23-2012, 12:17 PM
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In for the conclusion on Wednesday, good luck OP
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  #56  
Old 12-23-2012, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engi View Post
Perhaps someone picking up the rifle decided to add it to their dros when the panic hit. Thanks ouod explain why they picked it up first
yup, that could be it. or, the guy had a 10/22 in jail and swapped it for the AR when he came in for pickup.

as long as the 4473 wasn't completed, ATF doesn't care if you change what firearm is getting transfered.
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  #57  
Old 12-23-2012, 12:25 PM
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call the doj report it stolen even though its a riffle prob never be found
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  #58  
Old 12-23-2012, 1:21 PM
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Unless the gun was sold on line and shipped out it is still in their shop. Since you were the first to buy it and your ten days are up tell the dealer to release it to you and tell that story to the other guy. At a minimum tell the dealer to refund all you money the $25 Dros, and a little store credit or something for your trouble. If he tells you no refunds only credit. Get a lawyer..

Good luck with that.
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  #59  
Old 12-23-2012, 1:28 PM
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They know a gun has to sit for the same 10 days for whoever bought it after you and they didnt FIND!!!! it in inventory. BUNCH OF CROOKS!!!!
Even if it was a legit mistake the rifle should still be there , AND you bought it first, SO if they didnt even attempt to find it, (THEY ARE CROOKS) and at the very least small claims and report them to the better business bureau.
As far as Im concerned any gun store that raises their price more than a third should be boycotted and starved out , before they REALLY get starved out after OHHHHBAMMA has his way with them.
They should be considering customer loyalty for the days when they are out of ARs and have to survive on day to day regular sales.
In which case, we are all better off without businesses that take this type of advantage of a good customer. my 2 cents. Good luck , REB
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  #60  
Old 12-23-2012, 1:32 PM
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As a new dealer, decide what kind of business you want to be. Honest or dishonest. Doesn't matter what the regulations for being a FFL are, it matters how you treat you customers and what stipulations you have when you make a sale.
I am very honest. And when I sell a firearm I mark it as sold with the customer name. Even for a generic firearm like a Glock that looks the same as the others. It helps me keep my inventory straight. DOJ doesn't let us add another firearm to the DROS once it's submitted. But since no serial number is submitted for long guns, a dealer could swap for literally any other long gun. There must be more to the story that only the dealer knows. Find another dealer who is honest. You'll never trust that one again. And next time, ask them to write the serial number on your sales order/invoice/receipt. That's what I do in Quickbooks for my own sanity but it benefits customers too.
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  #61  
Old 12-23-2012, 1:45 PM
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Even for a generic firearm like a Glock that looks the same as the others
I agree!
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  #62  
Old 12-23-2012, 1:47 PM
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Wow.

Stolen?

Some whack advice being thrown around here. Not sure why I'm commenting but this thread should have been closed after tenpercentfirearm's first post because that IS the bottom line.

Go get your money back and hope the dealer offers up some kind of reasonable restitution for their supposed "mistake", otherwise take the money and chalk it up to one of life's little lessons in the mean, cruel world of business. Bad or otherwise.

What happened sucks, especially because of the ridiculous overnight demand and supply but it is what it is.
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  #63  
Old 12-23-2012, 2:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
The only traction you might have is if you can find somewhere in the business code where the seller might have some sort of contractual obligation to you.
That's the tract that I would pursue. You made the purchase, completed the documentation, then waited the appropriate period of time. Then the dealer did not complete the transaction due to negligence on their part.

Assuming that the dealer still carries that product line, and that they won't provide an identical rifle at the original price, you might pursue the matter in small claims court. in that venue, it is often a matter of simply arguing more eloquently that the dealer broke the implied "contract" by selling the item to another buyer for what was probably a significantly higher amount during this run on modern sporting rifles.

In theory, I doubt that this would stand up in court with lawyers arguing it. But it might work in small claims court (or at least have the lawsuit spur the dealer to replace the gun at the original price).
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  #64  
Old 12-23-2012, 2:54 PM
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folks, the only form that dealer has with any info about the rifle is the 4473, no s/n on dros to doj, its just a background check...but you know this.
so if the dealer is really shady he destroyed the 4473 you signed, if you had that copy you are golden and dealer is in hella deep with a few agencys.
But i agree, I would cal DOJ and an ATF field office in the area.
Either way, the dealer seems to have no issue screwing you over and not the 2nd guy tells me its profit driven motivation....did you not ask him why he could not get the rifle back from the other guy? or that you know the rifle is still in the store?, unless he sold to a guy after he had already Dros another long gun and was able to pickup more on pickup day...assuming that dealer put in more then 1 longgun.
This, a while back I picked up a custom order from a shop and apparently another guy had a very similar custom order at the same time. Anyway I picked mine up in the morning and apparently the other guy came in later and they had ordered him the wrong rifle. So they called me to make sure I didn't accidentally get his, I told them that I had the correct one. I even offered to bring it back for them to check, but they believed me(I am a regular) and I read them the SN. Anyway I don't see why your guy can't and won't do the same unless he sold it for more money.
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  #65  
Old 12-23-2012, 3:31 PM
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I can't believe some of you can not understand this...

He paid for the rifle and DROSed it
Afterward the FFL sold the gun to someone else
He came back in 10 days to pick it up
The FFL said, sorry someone else has it now.

Yes it was in the store but do you expect him to search the store?

Just because he unwrapped it doesn't mean he was the first to buy it
So someone could have bought it and never opened or even looked at the box. all the information needed to fill out the 4473 is on the outside label. So this FFL could be telling the truth and is just a very poor records keeper.

You can take him to small claims court for the extra cost to buy the firearm.

Even though 10% says it doesnt matter a call to the ATF does get a reaction. They do like hearing about FFLs who have poor inventory and accounting skills.

This is not the first time this has been reported here.
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  #66  
Old 12-23-2012, 3:57 PM
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Clark Howard would say to picket until the owner fixes it. My guess is one Saturday would be enough.
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  #67  
Old 12-23-2012, 4:01 PM
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Originally Posted by dieselpower View Post
I can't believe some of you can not understand this...

He paid for the rifle and DROSed it
Afterward the FFL sold the gun to someone else
He came back in 10 days to pick it up
The FFL said, sorry someone else has it now.

Yes it was in the store but do you expect him to search the store?

Just because he unwrapped it doesn't mean he was the first to buy it
So someone could have bought it and never opened or even looked at the box. all the information needed to fill out the 4473 is on the outside label. So this FFL could be telling the truth and is just a very poor records keeper.

You can take him to small claims court for the extra cost to buy the firearm.

Even though 10% says it doesnt matter a call to the ATF does get a reaction. They do like hearing about FFLs who have poor inventory and accounting skills.

This is not the first time this has been reported here.


If this had happened to me, I would have said where it took place was. This sounds like Munchausens Syndrome for gun buyers.
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  #68  
Old 12-23-2012, 4:46 PM
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I can not believe somebody buys a gun at $XXX and comes back ten days later and says it does not exist. In the real world I know he sold it for twice as much.

I was once in one of those hole in the wall gun shops here in CA. A thirty something woman had her grandfathers Colt Single Action Army and wanted to sell it because she had children in the house. The owner gave her $100 and then put a $3000 price tag on it.

Just because somebody is a good ole boy does not mean they have integrity. I would like to know.
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Old 12-23-2012, 5:20 PM
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I would say post their name, its a public forum. If they want to tell their side no one is stopping them.
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Old 12-23-2012, 5:26 PM
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Originally Posted by NoHeavyHitter View Post
If the gun was DROS'ed to you, it belongs to you. So long as DROS was processed - then the store is on the hook for retrieving the firearm that you own. If this is the case, nicely ask them to get you your firearm - else take the issue up with the DOJ or possibly the BATF as your firearm is STOLEN (even if it was the store that "stole" it in order to re-sell it for double the price). Faced with getting their tit caught in the ATF-wringer, I suspect they'll want to make it right instead of possibly losing their FFL, and thus their ability to operate as a gun store.
This!
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Old 12-23-2012, 5:28 PM
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POST THE NAME! IDC IF THEY FIX THE PROBLEM OR NOT! I DONT WANNA DO BUSINESS AT A PLACE LIKE THIS!
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Old 12-23-2012, 7:02 PM
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Originally Posted by SWalt View Post
MRS has a verbal contract with the dealer, evidenced by his sales receipt and DROS started. Verbal contracts are fully enforceable. The dealer offered the rifle for sale and MRS accepted, agreed to his price and paid his money. They both agreed to the sale. The Dealer is under obligation to provide said rifle. The OP can sue him in court and have the contract enforced which can include specific performance (ie, dealer can be forced to retrieve the rifle from who ever has it and provide it to OP) or some other way that makes the buyer whole and is agreeable to the OP (I would go to gun broker and try to find what the market value of his rifle is today and ask for that amount if the dealer can't provide the specific rifle. Hopefully it has tripled in price!). Bottom line is, it is a contract and enforceable. The problem with a lawsuit is, the time, money and hassle that comes along with it. Try to work out a solution with the dealer. But bring up a lawsuit when you talk to him if he is unwilling to make you whole.
Take them to court. Let us know how it goes.

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Even though 10% says it doesnt matter a call to the ATF does get a reaction. They do like hearing about FFLs who have poor inventory and accounting skills.
Only one way to find out. Call them.
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Old 12-23-2012, 8:16 PM
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Take them to court. Let us know how it goes.
Take who to court? I am only stating basic contract law and not referring to anything else. The store offered the rifle for sale, OP accepted the offer and fulfilled his portion of the contract, gave them his payment and fulfilled the other conditions, filling out his DROS, etc. The store is obligated to fulfill their part of the contract. The only other part of the contract is, he isn't a prohibited person. If he is prohibited, then by function of law you can't sell to him, its an illegal contract. Simple. No different than any other business transaction.

If you are in business and don't understand what is or isn't a contract, best you learn.
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Old 12-23-2012, 8:38 PM
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If you are in business and don't understand what is or isn't a contract, best you learn.
SWalt, what gun shop have you successfully run? I'm just curious since you feel entitled to be condescending to a successful LGS owner and one of our fiercest 2A advocates in the state.
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Old 12-23-2012, 9:38 PM
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I <3 this thread.

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Old 12-23-2012, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
SWalt, what gun shop have you successfully run? I'm just curious since you feel entitled to be condescending to a successful LGS owner and one of our fiercest 2A advocates in the state.
I realize that many people in the gun community think that a gun store owner is the pinnacle of legal knowledge, and must not be challenged nor questioned, but SWalt is right about the black letter law of contracts.

It may be that the damages here don't justify the time and expense of litigation, but getting away with something because lawyers are expensive and litigation is frustrating and slow doesn't change the underlying rights and obligations.

If party A agrees to sell a gun serial numbered 12345 to Y for $Z dollars, and Y pays as agreed, A is obligated to deliver the gun; and if he cannot, to provide A with the benefit of the bargain (e.g., an equivalent gun), not just a refund of the purchase price.

Usually this isn't that exciting - but where the value of the gun may have doubled or tripled between the beginning and the end of the 10 day wait, it can be interesting. Not bet-your-house interesting, but this may cost someone a couple thousand dollars, and more than that if the buyer can find an argument (such as a violation of CA Business & Professions Code 17200, or another consumer protection statute) for liability that would provide that the business has to pay his attorney's fees. In that context, the business is potentially on the hook to pay both sides' attorneys, as well as the damages, and it would probably make sense for them to suck it up and write a settlement check. The "fighting is a pain in the ***, better just give up" argument cuts both ways.
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by SWalt View Post
Take who to court?
The OP take the gun dealer to court. How else would you handle a breach of contract if the gun dealer isn't willing to work with you?

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Originally Posted by SWalt View Post
If you are in business and don't understand what is or isn't a contract, best you learn.
I understand it. How is the OP going to prove it? Further, what are the gun stores policies on and written notices regarding cancellations and other such issues?

If all we have are verbal instructions, you are going to have an uphill battle in court. It would further be interesting to see what the sales order/receipt says.

That is a lot of trouble for not getting your rifle. If the OP decides it is worth his time to pursue it, let us know how it goes.

Also let us know if you report it stolen or if you contact the ATF or DOJ.
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  #78  
Old 12-23-2012, 10:49 PM
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DROS means nothing with regard to long guns. No serial numbers are filed, and DOJ has no record of what long gun was transferred (unlike with handguns).

So while it is possible that "mistakes happen," it is a pretty big mistake and if I were the FFL I would be trying my darndest to make it up to you in some way, especially since AR/AK variants are not going to be in stock anytime soon.

My guess is they decided to raise the price 50% since you paid, so your AR got "misplaced" and they will refund your money so they can make more on the same rifle.

This is why I take a pic of the serial # of every gun I purchase right when it is DROSed so there is no problem on pickup. Name the store if they don't make it right for you.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by SWalt View Post
Take who to court? I am only stating basic contract law and not referring to anything else. The store offered the rifle for sale, OP accepted the offer and fulfilled his portion of the contract, gave them his payment and fulfilled the other conditions, filling out his DROS, etc. The store is obligated to fulfill their part of the contract. The only other part of the contract is, he isn't a prohibited person. If he is prohibited, then by function of law you can't sell to him, its an illegal contract. Simple. No different than any other business transaction.

If you are in business and don't understand what is or isn't a contract, best you learn.
if he's prohibited it's not an illegal contract,
passing the DROS is a condition precedent

OP paid for the rifle, listed by s/n ... that is a contract and the seller is obligated to fulfill upon satisfying the DROS, condition precedent

even if the shop made a mistake it is a breach of contract
not wanting to continue the intellectual exercise, but the OP can cover ...
by finding a like or same rifle even at a higher prices and suing for the difference ... not worth the trouble, but that's the law

stolen rifle? don't think so
even if the dealer sold it out from under him

nevertheless, the dealer may have violated the terms of his FFL or CA or Federal law, IDK b/c I am not a dealer and don't know the law

I don't think you should have walked out the door w/o your rifle, your money, a replacement rifle or a guarantee for a replacement rifle with dealer covering the cost differential.

Suggestion, see what the dealer has to say on Wednesday

small claims court? suggestion, ignore any post that suggests small claims court
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:08 PM
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Sounds like a bunch of things you cannot prove to me. IMO, your best bet is to be calm and deal with it like an adult. Give the dealer the benefit of the doubt and the opportunity to make it right. The cops and alphabet agencies won't do anything to him so don't waste your time. You'll either get your money back or a rifle. That's all you deserve.
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