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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #201  
Old 07-04-2013, 2:56 PM
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Originally Posted by fizux View Post
Not necessarily true -- if you buy a new car in another state, you can't bring it back to California immediately and avoid the use tax.
Well, you could try to avoid the "use tax" if you didn't use it. For instance, if you never registered your new car in CA, it will be a lot harder (not impossible) for them to enforce the tax. The only difference between cars and ammo is that you have to register your car. Oh wait...I don't want to give them any ideas.
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  #202  
Old 07-05-2013, 7:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Gavelek View Post
Voice your opinions writing letters to your representatives
Yeah...cause they care....


Sorry, no disrespect, just feeling a little hopeless in the current American political climate. And its especially hard here in this cesspool of a state.
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  #203  
Old 07-05-2013, 8:03 AM
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Voice your opinions writing letters to your representatives
your new here and may have no idea that these STATISTS do not care for your voice of opposition. their minds are made up and they will do what they want no matter what we say or facts we present to them.

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Yeah...cause they care....


Sorry, no disrespect, just feeling a little hopeless in the current American political climate. And its especially hard here in this cesspool of a state.
we know they don't care.
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  #204  
Old 07-05-2013, 8:36 AM
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Just read the whole thing twice. What stands out the most, to me, is the use of our CDL or CID numbers as the identifier. That has a great potential to create a black market for stolen CDL or CID numbers. Criminals can use fake IDs with our numbers to buy ammo, commit a crime, and it will US that get our doors bashed in by the police. The same could potentially happen with micro stamped shell casings.

UNBELIEVABLE!!

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  #205  
Old 07-05-2013, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by obiwan View Post
True but it will be illegal to purchase and not pay the use tax
That is already the case and people buy stuff online or out of state all the time and skip the use tax either on purpose or just by ignorance of the law..no matter the result is the same.

Since its not a prohibited item, like say fruit, there is nothing to stop anyone from going to another state and buying ammo...just another reason this bill is so silly....
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  #206  
Old 07-05-2013, 12:32 PM
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When this POS is in full affect by 2017, the database will log all sales/purchases. Not hard to imagine you getting jacked up, in possession of some ammo not in your purchase history which = unlawful purchase/possession since you failed to pay the state its due...
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  #207  
Old 07-05-2013, 1:55 PM
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Originally Posted by obiwan View Post
When this POS is in full affect by 2017, the database will log all sales/purchases. Not hard to imagine you getting jacked up, in possession of some ammo not in your purchase history which = unlawful purchase/possession since you failed to pay the state its due...
That's total BS and FUD. They will not be able to account for all of the ammo previously purchased and stored. I know people that have 20/30/40 year old (and older) ammo. Until they pass another law that makes importing ammo from out of state illegal they won't even be able to begin making possession of a ammo without a record of sale as crime. Even then they cannot account for long term storage.
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  #208  
Old 07-05-2013, 3:03 PM
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Black market they will create. Just like alcohol prohibition. Illegal for a while then legal. They can kiss my butt.
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  #209  
Old 07-05-2013, 3:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonshine View Post
Last time SB-249 came up language from this forum made it into the bill. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

So lets make up a bunch of BS, get that included and then sue that the bill is nonsense...

BTW, I do NOT own the gun above. I sold it and don't have it any more. Nor my ARs... All gone.
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  #210  
Old 07-05-2013, 7:20 PM
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Originally Posted by jackdhammer View Post
Yeah...cause they care....


Sorry, no disrespect, just feeling a little hopeless in the current American political climate. And its especially hard here in this cesspool of a state.
Keep in mind that's exactly what such people want. Always contact them.
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  #211  
Old 08-31-2013, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli View Post
I will continue to contact them but it won't matter—since their goal is to eliminate all firearms in private ownership in the California and the United States. They have a two-pronged attack: the first prong is that they are slowly expanding the definition of illegal firearms as making the purchase and possession of firearms increasingly a expensive to reduce ownership and the second it so make ammunition difficult and expensive to obtain and eliminate storage of an material amount of i and I have no doubt they will go after reloading ...
Are we sure they don't have that covered in this bill? Read PC30306 in conjunction with PC 16150, then please tell me I am wrong.
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  #212  
Old 08-31-2013, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by smallshot13 View Post
Are we sure they don't have that covered in this bill? Read PC30306 in conjunction with PC 16150, then please tell me I am wrong.
Maybe...it doesn't matter once they've outlawed semi-auto rifles (in a less than a month now) and placed enough restrictions on firearms and ammo purchases and possession (in less than a month now), they will certainly go after reloading specifically.

Their goal is to make all ammo prohibitively expensive and difficult to obtain so it is natural they'll pass new laws to keep you from workarounds like buying it out of state and stockpiling it or reloading it yourself to get around their restrictions.

It's to be expected and it looks very likely next term as the are emboldened by their success with their current crop of restrictions.
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  #213  
Old 08-31-2013, 12:55 PM
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De León forgets that AB 962 was ruled unconstitutional. These same legislators waste their time on blaming inanimate objects, because dealing with and solving real issues, would take effort if they cared to begin with. Magical thinking, and a terrible leftist ideology, turns out to be what's convenient. Which is totally indicative of poor character, that leads to overt violation of our rights, we see from the left.
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  #214  
Old 08-31-2013, 1:25 PM
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Originally Posted by RRangel View Post
De León forgets that AB 962 was ruled unconstitutional. These same legislators waste their time on blaming inanimate objects, because dealing with and solving real issues, would take effort if they cared to begin with. Magical thinking, and a terrible leftist ideology, turns out to be what's convenient. Which is totally indicative of poor character, that leads to overt violation of our rights, we see from the left.
He probably doesn't see the connection honestly or if he does, he just figures he'll keep trying until he slips one past the gauntlet and previous successes have emboldened them.

We have a disconnect int our community which is plain to see when I hear things like you said: "waste their time on blaming inanimate objects, because dealing with and solving real issues, would take effort if they cared to begin with."

That's not why they do this—they know full well their laws won't affect crime, they just imply that to win over the populace because the truth would not get them support. The truth, the real reason they want firearms out of the hands of citizens is they don't trust us with them—they are elitist leftists who think they know better what is good for us than the poor stupid masses do. Just like Bloomberg tried to take away large sodas.

They honestly fear us being armed because they hate, fear, and despise us as beneath them and think we are all potential threats to them. If you look at their behavior through that lens it all makes sense. And this is why you cannot reason with them talking about crime and statistics or a right to self-defense. They don't believe us—they think we want semi-auto rifles to hurt them one day because they plan to create a Nanny State run by their small group of elitists to control every aspect of our lives—for our own good because they know better than we do what is good for us. They live in mortal fear of the potential we might be able to fight back. Mao feared that, Stalin feared that. It is no coincidence Leyland Lee comes from that culture and that mentality. No coincidence at all. Some flee China to escape it, others bring it with them to impose here "for our own good".
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"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
-- John Dean "Jeff" Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

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  #215  
Old 08-31-2013, 2:12 PM
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Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli View Post
The truth, the real reason they want firearms out of the hands of citizens is they don't trust us with them—they are elitist leftists who think they know better what is good for us than the poor stupid masses do. Just like Bloomberg tried to take away large sodas.

They honestly fear us being armed because they hate, fear, and despise us as beneath them and think we are all potential threats to them. If you look at their behavior through that lens it all makes sense. And this is why you cannot reason with them talking about crime and statistics or a right to self-defense. They don't believe us—they think we want semi-auto rifles to hurt them one day because they plan to create a Nanny State run by their small group of elitists to control every aspect of our lives—for our own good because they know better than we do what is good for us.
And this is the reason they pander to law enforcement, exempting LE from the restrictions. They plan to call in a favor from LE while being tied to the stake by the constituents they have ignored.

Maybe 911 won't be working that day.
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  #216  
Old 08-31-2013, 7:52 PM
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Originally Posted by RRangel View Post
De León forgets that AB 962 was ruled unconstitutional. These same legislators waste their time on blaming inanimate objects, because dealing with and solving real issues, would take effort if they cared to begin with. Magical thinking, and a terrible leftist ideology, turns out to be what's convenient. Which is totally indicative of poor character, that leads to overt violation of our rights, we see from the left.
It was ruled unconstitutional because it was for handgun ammunition, which left itself vague in the sense as to what actually is handgun ammunition. For example, there's 9 mm handguns and rifles.
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  #217  
Old 09-01-2013, 12:24 AM
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I've read several summaries of this bill and the text itself, but I have a lot of questions about how these ammo permits will work.

How much will ammo purchase permits cost? There's no amount listed in the bill, can the DoJ just make up whatever amount they feel like? Have they stated how much they will cost?

Will ammo permits be good forever or will they have to be renewed (and fees paid) every year?

If I take my friends to the range will I be allowed to give them ammo to shoot? Is this really a ban on introducing new people to shooting?

All of this year's anti-gun bills are bad, but in my opinion this one is the worst.
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  #218  
Old 09-01-2013, 3:25 AM
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I've read several summaries of this bill and the text itself, but I have a lot of questions about how these ammo permits will work.
That is by design: the more arcane the laws, the more people will refrain from an activity out of fear they'll be breaking the law engaging in it. Between obscure laws that make otherwise law-abiding firearms owners criminals on technicalities without even using a firearm to threaten, injure, or kill someone criminally combined with the doubt as to whether one is within the law, they hope to nearly eliminate firearms use in California one day. The devious and pernicious bureaucracy they are setting up is almost Kafkaesque. Mao would truly be proud.
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All of this year's anti-gun bills are bad, but in my opinion this one is the worst.
And together, they are an unmitigated disaster for anyone who owns firearms in California.They don't want any of us here if we want to possess adn use firearms or hunt so they are bent either proscribing such behavior and re-educating Mao-style or forcing us to flee.
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  #219  
Old 09-01-2013, 3:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Dutch3 View Post
And this is the reason they pander to law enforcement, exempting LE from the restrictions. They plan to call in a favor from LE while being tied to the stake by the constituents they have ignored.

Maybe 911 won't be working that day.
That day is a figment of their fear craven imaginations. Many of us at Calguns and in the NRA are veterans or on active duty, many current- or ex-law enforcement and certainly all of us are patriots and have high respect for the rule of law and the democratic process in this republic. We'll continue to fight with the ballot box and the pen. And some, if necessary. with our feet in a better state.

Radicalizing talk of liberty and rights to make us domestic enemies is part of the Obama Administration's strategy but we can significantly worsen the effect by playing along with our speech and actions. We are the patriots, let's no cede the moral and legal high ground. Or we will lose.
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"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
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  #220  
Old 09-01-2013, 7:06 AM
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It was ruled unconstitutional because it was for handgun ammunition, which left itself vague in the sense as to what actually is handgun ammunition. For example, there's 9 mm handguns and rifles.
Yes; vagueness was only one of its legal flaws.
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  #221  
Old 09-01-2013, 8:14 AM
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This bill will reinstate AB 962, since it obtusely redefines 'hand gun ammunition' to apply to all ammunition, which is what they wanted to do in the first place. It eliminates the ability to purchase ammunition, and potentially components, from out of state sources (except through face-to-face purchase and import). THIS BILL MUST BE STOPPED.

I am not a lawyer, but it seems that this bill would be a restraint of trade between the various States. It does allow shipment of ammunition to/through a CA ammo dealer. I follow the money, and this tells me that the CA ammo dealers are behind the bill, as well as the anti's. So not only fight it at the legislative level, fight it at your local CA ammo dealer, asking them to strongly oppose it.
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  #222  
Old 09-01-2013, 8:39 AM
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Originally Posted by smallshot13 View Post
this tells me that the CA ammo dealers are behind the bill, as well as the anti's. So not only fight it at the legislative level, fight it at your local CA ammo dealer, asking them to strongly oppose it.
I think one has to think shallowly to decide ammunition retailers benefit from this regulation overall. While prices will certainly rise, that is going to be more than offset by a significant drop in demand: their costs will increase significantly and as a result California retail demand will suffer substantially: the higher the price, the cost of licensing, and inconvenience, the greater the number of purchasers willing to travel out of state to Nevada, Idaho, or Oregon and beyond.

The net effect will be a mini-recession for ammunition sellers—which is the goal of these legislators. They are hoping increases costs and weakened demand will force the closing of retail ammunition outlets making ammunition even more scarce and expensive.
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-- John Dean "Jeff" Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

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  #223  
Old 09-02-2013, 8:37 AM
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advocatusdiaboli:

Not sure your analysis of shallow thought holds true. CA ammo retailers capture nearly 100% of ammo sales with the passage of this bill. That is no small number. There may be some price driven reduction in demand, but that is far out weighed by the capture of all ammunition sales, and the resulting higher prices. CA ammo dealers won't see much of an increase in their costs, (some admin record keeping), but they will see a huge increase in their volume and profit margin. Yes, the bill magnanimously allows us to order from outside the State (phone or internet) as long as the order is shipped to a CA ammo seller. Now why would they accept an out of state shipment through them vs. selling direct at a higher price? Follow the Money trail and it leads to CA ammo dealers trying to artificially manipulate the free markets through government intervention.
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  #224  
Old 09-02-2013, 8:44 AM
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advocatusdiaboli:

Not sure your analysis of shallow thought holds true. CA ammo retailers capture nearly 100% of ammo sales with the passage of this bill. That is no small number. There may be some price driven reduction in demand, but that is far out weighed by the capture of all ammunition sales, and the resulting higher prices. CA ammo dealers won't see much of an increase in their costs, (some admin record keeping), but they will see a huge increase in their volume and profit margin. Yes, the bill magnanimously allows us to order from outside the State (phone or internet) as long as the order is shipped to a CA ammo seller. Now why would they accept an out of state shipment through them vs. selling direct at a higher price? Follow the Money trail and it leads to CA ammo dealers trying to artificially manipulate the free markets through government intervention.
Where's your evidence showing that ammo dealers support over regulation? From a general point of view I do find it highly unlikely. When government meddles with business nothing good can come of it. You can bet that this bill, will likely lead to even more restrictions, and regulations that will hurt business. That's the point of it. You're assuming that there will not be new restrictions written the following year. The very reason it needs to be fought tooth and nail.
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  #225  
Old 09-02-2013, 8:50 AM
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AB53 is going to have a grievous impact on match .22 shooters. As it is, right now, NO vendors in the Sacramento area (or even Northern California as far as I know) carries Eley, RWS, Lapua or even Federal UM22 for sale. I've tried to get one of our largest LGS's to order - but they won't. He doesn't perceive it being "worth his time."

As of right now, ALL my match .22LR comes via internet order and from out of state.

I have no idea how I'm (or anyone else) is going to handle this problem when the bill gets signed into law.
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  #226  
Old 09-02-2013, 8:58 AM
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So, approach your CA ammo dealer and ask them to join in the fight against AB 53 (name and money), and then measure their response. If they do actively join in, so much the better. If they just side step, well, draw your own conclusions.
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  #227  
Old 09-02-2013, 9:08 AM
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AB53 is going to have a grievous impact on match .22 shooters. As it is, right now, NO vendors in the Sacramento area (or even Northern California as far as I know) carries Eley, RWS, Lapua or even Federal UM22 for sale. I've tried to get one of our largest LGS's to order - but they won't. He doesn't perceive it being "worth his time."

As of right now, ALL my match .22LR comes via internet order and from out of state.

I have no idea how I'm (or anyone else) is going to handle this problem when the bill gets signed into law.
The consequence is simple:you won't be able to shoot anymore.

Which is the point of the exercise.The Sacramento Regime is not stupid:by eliminating competition for ammo sales,brick and mortar dealers will raise prices.Higher prices for ammo means more people who own guns will abandon the sport for lack of funds.
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  #228  
Old 09-02-2013, 9:43 AM
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The two dealers that I frequent both hate the idea of this bill and want nothing to do with it and are fighting it. Just think, no more WalMart ammo, no more hardware store ammo, no more Internet ammo sales without a hefty "service fee" for the transfer through your ammo dealer or your other choice will be to buy from a local ammo dealer. IMHO, this bill is the worst of a batch of terrible bills we are faced with this year and I am amazed that not a single person I have talked to at ranges, gun shops and amongst my friends who own guns had even heard of it until I educated them. We are our own worse enemy because as a community we are so fractured and low information.
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  #229  
Old 09-02-2013, 9:59 AM
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We are our own worse enemy because as a community we are so fractured and low information.

I would say this is the win of the day....^

You all have no idea how many people come into the shop, and have no clue what is happening. Some, outright don't believe us when we tell them.

Or better yet, the best response I hear to the legislation is

" so? I have mine already"....
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  #230  
Old 09-02-2013, 11:20 AM
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Where's your evidence showing that ammo dealers support over regulation? From a general point of view I do find it highly unlikely. When government meddles with business nothing good can come of it. You can bet that this bill, will likely lead to even more restrictions, and regulations that will hurt business. That's the point of it. You're assuming that there will not be new restrictions written the following year. The very reason it needs to be fought tooth and nail.
I don't have evidence and, in fact, I was stating I believe it would hurt them and implying the AMMO DEALERS WOULD NOT BE SUPPORTING IT NOR IN FAVOR OF IT.

If you read my response more carefully, you'll see I was responding to someone who stated "this tells me that the CA ammo dealers are behind the bill" which I disagreed with. I don't think CA ammunition dealers want more regulation due to the negative long term effects it will have on their businesses. You need to re-read my post and the person I quoted.
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  #231  
Old 09-02-2013, 11:25 AM
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We are our own worse enemy because as a community we are so fractured and low information.
Yep. I have hunter friends who don't care that semi-autos are being restricted because they think it's not going to effect them—they don't realize there will be more and more restriction after this and the end game is to ban civilian possession and use of firearms including hunting. they also laughed about the ammo license and fingerprinting and said:"So what? No big deal."

Divided and conquered.
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  #232  
Old 09-02-2013, 11:29 AM
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Which is the point of the exercise.The Sacramento Regime is not stupid:by eliminating competition for ammo sales,brick and mortar dealers will raise prices.Higher prices for ammo means more people who own guns will abandon the sport for lack of funds.
You bet. They decided a few years ago on a two-pronged attack since legislating against firearms alone was taking too long. Several anti-gun spokespeople even publicly stated that limiting ammunition access and making it prohibitively expensive through taxation and promoting scarcity was another tactic they'd employ. Because firearms are nearly useless without ammunition. I think fair courts that support the second amendment will see through this and will rule it's an unconstitutional attack on the right. The question is when will the issue be brought before fair and unbiased courts. I view thei regulation a a fait accompli. and I think the courts are our only hope of preserving our right at present and in the future.
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  #233  
Old 09-02-2013, 1:13 PM
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The consequence is simple:you won't be able to shoot anymore.

Which is the point of the exercise.The Sacramento Regime is not stupid:by eliminating competition for ammo sales,brick and mortar dealers will raise prices.Higher prices for ammo means more people who own guns will abandon the sport for lack of funds.
Exactly. None of this anti-gun legislation will stop crime, and they know this. It is designed to make it such a hassle to buy, own, and shoot guns that people just are not going to do it as much.

They don't want anyone to own or shoot guns, period. Here they are letting prisoners out of the jails by the hundreds and they are busy wasting tax payers money thinking of ways to disarm the honest law abiding citizen.
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  #234  
Old 09-02-2013, 1:23 PM
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Where's your evidence showing that ammo dealers support over regulation? From a general point of view I do find it highly unlikely.
I don't have conclusive evidence one way or the other.

It's only anecdotal, but back when AB962 was in the works I tried to convince the Bass Pro Shop in Rancho Cucamonga to put a stack of Calguns AB962 flyers in their gun shop. They wanted nothing to do with it. I've been suspicious of their motivations since then.

I won't shop there anymore.
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  #235  
Old 09-02-2013, 1:36 PM
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I don't have conclusive evidence one way or the other.

It's only anecdotal, but back when AB962 was in the works I tried to convince the Bass Pro Shop in Rancho Cucamonga to put a stack of Calguns AB962 flyers in their gun shop. They wanted nothing to do with it. I've been suspicious of their motivations since then.

I won't shop there anymore.
I don't construe that as implying they favored further ammunition regulation, but rather a reluctance to draw the attention of the authorities.

Many businesses, who stay in business at the largesse for local law enforcement and the CA DOJ, are reluctant to embroil themselves in politics for fear they'll be made an example of and such fears are well-founded. The FFL who sold the firearms to the mother of the kid who committed the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary is facing prison for gaps in paperwork that normally are minor (and certainly not criminal—ever) because the Obama Administration wants to make an example out of him. Anti-gun forces know very well the power of the "chilling effect" of over-reactive persecution through selective prosecution. If they cna scare jsut 1/4 of the FFLs in the US into leaving the business imagine what that would do to the availability of arms and the costs of obtaining them.
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  #236  
Old 09-02-2013, 1:39 PM
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Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli View Post
I don't construe that as implying they favored further ammunition regulation, but rather a reluctance to draw the attention of the authorities.

Many businesses, who stay in business at the largesse for local law enforcement and the CA DOJ, are reluctant to embroil themselves in politics for fear they'll be made an example of and such fears are well-founded. The FFL who sold the firearms to the mother of the kid who committed the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary is facing prison for gaps in paperwork that normally are minor (and certainly not criminal—ever) because the Obama Administration wants to make an example out of him. Anti-gun forces know very well the power of the "chilling effect" of over-reactive persecution through selective prosecution.
I agree it's not conclusive.

However, it was enough for me to decide to not support them anymore.
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  #237  
Old 09-02-2013, 1:39 PM
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Don't give up hope yet.

If this girl:



And this guy:



Are willing to fight, so should you.
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  #238  
Old 09-02-2013, 1:40 PM
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It is just insane here.
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  #239  
Old 09-02-2013, 2:46 PM
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Don't give up hope yet.

If this girl:



And this guy:



Are willing to fight, so should you.
while very well spoken all of that fell on deaf ears period. as all of our letters, calls, faxes and emails. yes they hear us and they ignore us in the same breath.
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  #240  
Old 09-03-2013, 9:56 PM
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The bill was amended in the assembly today. They added 6 months to the activation date, but more importantly, removed the ability for a non FFL to order ammo and have it shipped to an FFL for pickup. Now only licensed vendors can buy ammo online, period.

One step closer to an injunction I suppose.
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