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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #161  
Old 06-27-2013, 8:49 AM
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Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli View Post
It is not illegal to buy ammunition out of state and they'll have a heck'uva time making it so. Only the Feds can make it so as they did for firearms and that will never happen.
True but it will be illegal to purchase and not pay the use tax
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  #162  
Old 06-27-2013, 8:51 AM
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Originally Posted by G21Shooter View Post
Damn I am 26, make $14/hr, and I will need to buy a lifetime worth of ammo between now and July 2017 if this bill passes cause I ain't submitting to that BS.
Think of it as a goal. You need goals in life to succeed.

Even if you get only 75% of your life's shooting needs, you'll be ahead of the game and need fewer trips to your other home in Arizona to restock.
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  #163  
Old 06-27-2013, 8:56 AM
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Why does anyone care about the Agricultural Inspection? They just ask where you're coming from and if it's far away they ask if you have fruits or vegetables. They only care about keeping agricultural pests out of CA. This does not make me fear worry about transporting ammunition.
I dont worry about it either, just making the point for those saying the ag checks are going to start questioning/confiscating out of state ammo that there are plenty of roads across the border that dont have checkpoints

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True but it will be illegal to purchase and not pay the use tax
what use tax
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  #164  
Old 06-27-2013, 9:04 AM
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Originally Posted by obiwan View Post
True but it will be illegal to purchase and not pay the use tax
If you purchase the ammunition in person in another state you pay that jurisdiction's sales tax. You don't have to pay a second, California tax if you bring it home. Use tax is the demon of internet sales, where NO tax is collected by the state of sale, nor by the end-user when he/she receives the product at his/her home of residence.
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  #165  
Old 06-27-2013, 9:07 AM
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Look at Maryland.

The anti's have instituted a de-facto 100 day waiting period due to the State's background check backlog.

The way it'll go down in CA is this: they won't deny anyone outright. Rather, the DOJ will assign the entire state's ammo purchase paperwork queue to 1 clerk and let time do their work for them. Everyone who qualifies will get an ammo card-12 months later.

Someone files suit-"O, we're so sorry, our ammo department is just UNDERSTAFFED! We're not infringing on the RKBA , we just don't have enough people to process the requests inside of 12 months."
There is something immensely back *** wards about how CA, due to budget problems, is forced by the courts to practically release prisoners. How this kind of back-handed "budget related" anti-2A stuff stands, I really don't know. What a country.
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  #166  
Old 06-27-2013, 9:11 AM
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Originally Posted by G21Shooter View Post
Yeah its BS through and through and we need to do everything in our powers to STOP it from becoming law!

Donate money to the NRA, and as many of the CA gun rights organizations as you can!
The fight will be in the courts and we are already well-funded there though the outcomes are unpredictable (as SCOTUS has shown of late). No amount of money will change the behavior of the Democratic legislature in catering to the anti-gun majority and defying the tiny pro-gun minority. That ship has sailed years ago.
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  #167  
Old 06-27-2013, 9:13 AM
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Voice your opinions writing letters to your representatives
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  #168  
Old 06-27-2013, 9:15 AM
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Originally Posted by formerTexan View Post
There is something immensely back *** wards about how CA, due to budget problems, is forced by the courts to practically release prisoners. How this kind of back-handed "budget related" anti-2A stuff stands, I really don't know. What a country.
Passing the legislature is only one (though nearly sure) thing—though all of them might not. Then they have to pass the governor's desk and a few might not. Then those that are left have to pass judicial muster and most will not hope. That last hurdle is the one thing the Deomcratic anti-gun zealots cannot buy yet. the last ammo bill was killed there and this might as be as well. i am decidedly not sanguine about gun rights in California longer term, but I believe there will be a lot of fighting in the near term and much of this will be staved off for years.
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  #169  
Old 06-27-2013, 9:19 AM
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Originally Posted by AceGirlsHusband View Post
If you purchase the ammunition in person in another state you pay that jurisdiction's sales tax. You don't have to pay a second, California tax if you bring it home. Use tax is the demon of internet sales, where NO tax is collected by the state of sale, nor by the end-user when he/she receives the product at his/her home of residence.
Not necessarily true -- if you buy a new car in another state, you can't bring it back to California immediately and avoid the use tax.
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  #170  
Old 06-27-2013, 9:20 AM
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Voice your opinions writing letters to your representatives
I write Tom Berryhill (14th Senate District—my district) all the time and he writes me back. But he is lonely up there and over-whelmed. He's ex-Special Forces and West Point and feeling like Custer most days I think.

I gave up writing the Democrats—I got form letters back stating "Thanks but no thanks—I am doing i what is right for California" and realized my time was better spent earning more money to fund the court fights.

Take a look at the City Council meeting in Sunnyvale—the other side overwhelms us in people and money now. Only the courts protect true minorities in the US—always has been that way and always will be—so that's where my money and time is.
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  #171  
Old 06-27-2013, 9:25 AM
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Not necessarily true -- if you buy a new car in another state, you can't bring it back to California immediately and avoid the use tax.
Yes, to split hairs, there are exceptions. Vehicles come under their own registration and tax requirements outlined in the vehicle and tax codes. Ammunition, however, does not. And unless the legislature redefines ammunition as a special, consummable commodity subject to retax or registration if imported, its just like the combs, toothpaste or nail file you buy in Vegas and come home with... for tax purposes.

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  #172  
Old 06-27-2013, 9:33 AM
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If this bill passes, I will have another reason to visit my family in Oregon. Plus, Oregon doesn't have a sales tax so if I buy enough ammo, it almost compensates for the gas money.
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  #173  
Old 06-27-2013, 9:38 AM
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Originally Posted by AceGirlsHusband View Post
Yes, to split hairs, there are exceptions. Vehicles come under their own registration and tax requirements outlined in the vehicle and tax codes. Ammunition, however, does not. And unless the legislature redefines ammunition as a special, consummable commodity subject to retax or registration if imported, its just like the combs, toothpaste or nail file you buy in Vegas and come home with... for tax purposes.

Further, the difference is because cars have to registered in CA and therefore you have to pay the fees. We are not there in ammunition—yet.
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  #174  
Old 06-27-2013, 9:40 AM
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Not necessarily true -- if you buy a new car in another state, you can't bring it back to California immediately and avoid the use tax.
the price of tea in China may be between 300 and 1000 yuan/500g, whats that got to do with ammo tax?
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  #175  
Old 06-27-2013, 9:45 AM
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True but it will be illegal to purchase and not pay the use tax
This is very true because everyone diligently declares their use tax on all purchases out of state. It won't be an issue because we are all diligently declaring our use tax on everything already.
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  #176  
Old 06-27-2013, 9:47 AM
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Originally Posted by AceGirlsHusband View Post
Yes, to split hairs, there are exceptions. Vehicles come under their own registration and tax requirements outlined in the vehicle and tax codes. Ammunition, however, does not. And unless the legislature redefines ammunition as a special, consummable commodity subject to retax or registration if imported, its just like the combs, toothpaste or nail file you buy in Vegas and come home with... for tax purposes.
This is true because vehicles need to be registered and the tax is based upon the location where it's registered not the location of purchase. The question will become-will ammo eventually be forced into nation wide registration such that it will become the same as vehicles? Not likely so long as Texas, Alaska and the Dakotas remain in the Union.
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  #177  
Old 06-27-2013, 9:50 AM
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Originally Posted by obiwan View Post
True but it will be illegal to purchase and not pay the use tax
The tax on ammo is not a use tax but rather a sales tax. The only restrictions on buying object out of state are: 1) if they require registration to use/possess in CA (like cars—so you pay the reg fees but not sales tax) or 2) firearms because federal law prohibits buying in another state—you have to transfer to an in-state FFL and therefore the sale is in CA and CA can collect sales tax.

ammunition doesn't fall under either of these yet though I am sure the anti-gun lobbies are considering the issue as we speak.
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  #178  
Old 06-27-2013, 9:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Wherryj View Post
This is true because vehicles need to be registered and the tax is based upon the location where it's registered not the location of purchase. The question will become-will ammo eventually be forced into nation wide registration such that it will become the same as vehicles? Not likely so long as Texas, Alaska and the Dakotas remain in the Union.
Exactly. We posted similar comments about the same time.
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  #179  
Old 06-27-2013, 9:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Wherryj View Post
This is true because vehicles need to be registered and the tax is based upon the location where it's registered not the location of purchase. The question will become-will ammo eventually be forced into nation wide registration such that it will become the same as vehicles? Not likely so long as Texas, Alaska and the Dakotas remain in the Union.
Exactly. We posted similar comments about the same time. though you missed a detail—when you register here, you don't pay the sales tax if you already paid out of state, just the reg fees.
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  #180  
Old 06-27-2013, 11:58 AM
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Exactly. We posted similar comments about the same time. though you missed a detail—when you register here, you don't pay the sales tax if you already paid out of state, just the reg fees.
I have Four examples that say Kalifornia all ways gets it money if you have to register. Ammo will be just like example 4 because I do not need to register ammo to use it.

One; I bought a car in nevada and had to pay taxes here to register. No taxes paid to Nevada.

Two; I bought a quad in Nevada and had to pay taxes here to register. No taxes paid to Nevada.

Three; I bought a gun in Nevada and had it sent to a FFL here and I paid taxes in nevada. FFL all so taxed me to register it here. I call the original seller and explain the problem and they refund me the tax money I paid with no problem.

Four; I bought an antique gun in Nevada but there is no registration because it was pre 1898. I paid taxes to Nevada.
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  #181  
Old 06-27-2013, 12:06 PM
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I have Four examples that say Kalifornia all ways gets it money if you have to register. Ammo will be just like example 4 because I do not need to register ammo to use it.

One; I bought a car in nevada and had to pay taxes here to register. No taxes paid to Nevada.

Two; I bought a quad in Nevada and had to pay taxes here to register. No taxes paid to Nevada.

Three; I bought a gun in Nevada and had it sent to a FFL here and I paid taxes in nevada. FFL all so taxed me to register it here. I call the original seller and explain the problem and they refund me the tax money I paid with no problem.

Four; I bought an antique gun in Nevada but there is no registration because it was pre 1898. I paid taxes to Nevada.
The firearms I understand—since by federal law you didn't actually purchase it until you received it from the FFL in California—it sucks but that's the way that is.

As for the vehicle, I didn't realize you had to pay sales tax—you certainly don't on vehicles purchased out of state if a non-resident—I know many people who did not—they just registered them but then they were not residents when they purchased. If true then both the fed and CA policy violate the interstate commerce clause me thinks though no one has ever brought suit over it.
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  #182  
Old 06-27-2013, 12:11 PM
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I
Four; I bought an antique gun in Nevada but there is no registration because it was pre 1898. I paid taxes to Nevada.
Interesting you could even buy a gun out of state legally without going through an FFL even if a collectors firearm—but I don't know the details on those regs I admit. I'd check deeper if I were you—that might have been illegal to have to pay tax twice or you could petition to get the Nevada tax back (yeah right I know, as if right?).
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  #183  
Old 06-27-2013, 12:11 PM
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As for the vehicle, I didn't realize you had to pay sales tax—you certainly don't on vehicles purchased out of state if a non-resident—I know many people who did not—they just registered them but then they were not residents when they purchased. If true then both the fed and CA policy violate the interstate commerce clause me thinks though no one has ever brought suit over it.
if you go to NV and buy a vehicle but you register it in CA, you would pay taxes in CA and not in NV. If you registered it in NV and then moved to CA you would have paid the taxes in NV and only have to pay registration when you come to CA
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  #184  
Old 06-27-2013, 1:00 PM
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This is very true because everyone diligently declares their use tax on all purchases out of state. It won't be an issue because we are all diligently declaring our use tax on everything already.
AS noted in this case, it's apples and meatloaf anyway, but I've been contemplating out of state ammo buys for other reasons anyway (availability being the prime reason). If one chooses to be a good subject, California has the safe harbor thing which is 0.07% of income IIRC and covers you for the year. Or there's always disobedience...
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  #185  
Old 06-27-2013, 1:45 PM
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This is very true because everyone diligently declares their use tax on all purchases out of state. It won't be an issue because we are all diligently declaring our use tax on everything already.
The use tax is phrased to include only the *difference* between (out of) state tax actually paid and the CA sales tax at the location of residence. Otherwise it would be easily stricken down as being a type of "import tax."

In addition, the burden of proof is on the state to show that an item was not only purchased out of state, but that it has been used in CA. For consumer level products it's a very tall order since the state cannot even prove that the item is in CA, let alone that it's the exact item that has been purchased out of state.

Looking forward for the BOE agents at the shooting ranges collecting spent brass...
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  #186  
Old 06-28-2013, 1:54 PM
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Did this just pass?

I got an email saying there will be a $50 fee to purchase ammo and a Background check for buying ammo and no more internet sales is this true?!?

Can ammo still be sold Face To Face private party?
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  #187  
Old 06-28-2013, 2:13 PM
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Did this just pass?

I got an email saying there will be a $50 fee to purchase ammo and a Background check for buying ammo and no more internet sales is this true?!?

Can ammo still be sold Face To Face private party?
Nothing has passed yet.

It is hard to say at this point what fees and restrictions it would fully implement. We have to wait until it goes through a couple more committees and the assembly floor for any further changes.
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  #188  
Old 06-28-2013, 3:54 PM
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Jerry Brown won't sign it. But lets say he does and it becomes "law". Then tax free ammunition will flood the state from Oregon, Arizona, and Nevada. Just imagine the money to be made. I'll be richer than Al Capone!.
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  #189  
Old 06-28-2013, 6:47 PM
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Calm down. It still has to pass the House and then Commie Jerry's signature. And then the legal challenges begin. The intent of California is clear—to take away firearms rights in the state and they'll eventually succeed, but the doing will take a long time yet. there is plenty of time for a rear guard action to delay while you make plans to vacate this pathetic state. Years even
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"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." --Jeff Cooper
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  #190  
Old 06-28-2013, 6:56 PM
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I travel out of state on business once or twice per month ... If this passes I anticipate my checked baggage coming home 15 lbs heavier than when I left each time.
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Old 06-30-2013, 1:57 AM
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Sorry I ve been out of the loop lately and haven't had time to read most of this thread... But did sb 53 pass and when would it take effect?
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Old 06-30-2013, 3:34 AM
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Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli View Post
Calm down. It still has to pass the House and then Commie Jerry's signature. And then the legal challenges begin. The intent of California is clear—to take away firearms rights in the state and they'll eventually succeed, but the doing will take a long time yet. there is plenty of time for a rear guard action to delay while you make plans to vacate this pathetic state. Years even
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Sorry I ve been out of the loop lately and haven't had time to read most of this thread... But did sb 53 pass and when would it take effect?

Two posts up the page....
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  #193  
Old 07-04-2013, 11:44 AM
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As you should all know by now, SB 53 was passed by the Assembly Public Safety Committee and next heads to the Assembly Appropriations Committee.

As I was reading the analysis on the bill, I saw the following:

"According to the recent USC Dornsife/Los Angeles Times Poll, 79% of Californians support requiring ammunition buyers to undergo a background check, and a clear majority of gun owners (2 out of every 3) want the same. The poll makes clear that Californians want to prevent criminals, domestic batterers, and the criminally insane from freely being able to acquire ammunition. Senate Bill 53 works toward that end by ensuring that only law-abiding citizens can purchase ammunition in California."

I don't know which "recent" poll he is referring to, but the recent LA Times poll that was discussed on this forum had a vote of about 95% opposing the bill, and I can't imagine that a single gun owner wants this bill to pass.

"Argument in Support: According to the California Police Chiefs Association, "California has enacted legislation designed to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, but it has done little to prevent criminals and gang members from procuring ammunition. Currently, any criminal can walk into a Big 5 or Wal-Mart and purchase pallets of ammunition, no questions asked. It is easier to purchase ammunition than it is a packet of cigarettes or allergy medicine."

First of all, Big 5 and Wal-Mart do not sell guns or ammo around here. And for the ones that do, please tell me which ones have pallets of ammunition for sale. I would love to be able to buy even a small fraction of a pallet.

You can read the bill analysis here: http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...reClient.xhtml

The entire bill is based on false assumptions and false information and will do nothing but prevent law abiding citizens from purchasing ammo.
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Old 07-04-2013, 12:03 PM
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The entire bill is based on false assumptions and false information and will do nothing but prevent law abiding citizens from purchasing ammo.
“It would not be impossible to prove with sufficient repetition and a psychological understanding of the people concerned that a square is in fact a circle. They are mere words, and words can be molded until they clothe ideas and disguise.”
― Joseph Goebbels

"But the most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly and with unflagging attention. It must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over. Here, as so often in this world, persistence is the first and most important requirement for success."

-- "War Propaganda", in volume 1, chapter 6 of Mein Kampf (1925), by Adolf Hitler
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"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." --Jeff Cooper
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Old 07-04-2013, 12:51 PM
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.......You can read the bill analysis here: http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...reClient.xhtml

The entire bill is based on false assumptions and false information and will do nothing but prevent law abiding citizens from purchasing ammo.
This is true of all proposed CA Gun Laws. You may assume before beginning your investigation of Gun Bills in the Legislature that they have only political motivations; to impress voters who have been taught to fear guns.

There is not one Bill that is based on an appreciation of facts or that will have any effect except to harm or inconvenience responsible law abiding gun owners. Legislators are proud of their ignorance of the operation and use of firearms and and assume that there is something nefarious about normal, lawful gun ownership.

We are in a great battle for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms and we must fight on even as it seems that a great tide of ignorance and darkness overwhelms us.
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  #196  
Old 07-04-2013, 1:43 PM
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Yes, to split hairs, there are exceptions. Vehicles come under their own registration and tax requirements outlined in the vehicle and tax codes. Ammunition, however, does not. And unless the legislature redefines ammunition as a special, consummable commodity subject to retax or registration if imported, its just like the combs, toothpaste or nail file you buy in Vegas and come home with... for tax purposes.
They aren't trying to control your use of a comb -- they don't care. Tax is just an enforcement mechanism (just ask Al Capone).
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the price of tea in China may be between 300 and 1000 yuan/500g, whats that got to do with ammo tax?
Tea is exempt from use tax (grocery item).
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Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli View Post
The tax on ammo is not a use tax but rather a sales tax. The only restrictions on buying object out of state are: 1) if they require registration to use/possess in CA (like cars—so you pay the reg fees but not sales tax) or 2) firearms because federal law prohibits buying in another state—you have to transfer to an in-state FFL and therefore the sale is in CA and CA can collect sales tax.
ammunition doesn't fall under either of these yet though I am sure the anti-gun lobbies are considering the issue as we speak.
The use tax is defined as the sales tax that you would have owed if you bought the personal property item in California, car, ammo, stereo, or any other personal property.
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Exactly. We posted similar comments about the same time. though you missed a detail—when you register here, you don't pay the sales tax if you already paid out of state, just the reg fees.
You get to deduct the foreign state sales tax from the assessed use tax (see R&T §6406); if you buy in a state with sales tax, you just owe the difference to California (since no state has a higher sales tax). If it is a vehicle that is used out of state for 90 days prior to being imported, or (several other exceptions), then it is not subject to use tax.
Ammo isn't typically "used" unless you are importing once-fired brass or something.
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  #197  
Old 07-04-2013, 2:23 PM
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We are in a great battle for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms and we must fight on even as it seems that a great tide of ignorance and darkness overwhelms us.
Well, as I keep saying, it is the courts and (absent a better governor than I think Brown is) only that will side with us on those bills that pass. The courts have always been the last resort of minorities to avoid the tyranny of the majority in the USA.

And don't for one minute assume our opponents do this of ignorance or a mistaken impression that their measures will touch criminals with firearms. Their real agenda is to rid California and, eventually, the USA of private ownership of guns. That is why they point to mass shootings so often because most of the perpetrators of those did not have criminal records—they fear us all not just criminals and want us all disarmed. That includes eliminating all hunting as well for many. And that hidden (at least unspoken agenda) is why the courts will help us—they will pierce the veil and perceive the agenda behind this and, sicne it is contrary to the Second Amendment's spirit and letter, they'll stop it. Unitl the court itself is corrupted by such devious people as to support that agenda—which will happen if Democrats keep getting elected in the state and nationally in sufficient numbers as they are now. We have almost lost SCOTUS as it is and the 9th circuit is already against us.
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Last edited by advocatusdiaboli; 07-04-2013 at 2:31 PM..
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  #198  
Old 07-04-2013, 2:43 PM
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Don't stop calling, faxing, and writing. Deleon and all the gun ban proponents need to hear from everyone.
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Old 07-04-2013, 2:54 PM
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Don't stop calling, faxing, and writing. Deleon and all the gun ban proponents need to hear from everyone.
I will continue to contact them but it won't matter—since their goal is to eliminate all firearms in private ownership in the California and the United States. They have a two-pronged attack: the first prong is that they are slowly expanding the definition of illegal firearms as making the purchase and possession of firearms increasingly a expensive to reduce ownership and the second it so make ammunition difficult and expensive to obtain and eliminate storage of an material amount of i and I have no doubt they will go after reloading once they've killed the retail channel with excessive regulation and taxation.

They've been frustrated in their attempts to ban as many categories of firearms as they can so they've decide to eliminate the vital ammunition ammunition that powers them making them effectively inert. the great thing about that (to them) is they then get hunters also.

Enough of this, I am, like I hope all the rest of you, going to enjoy the 4th with all the liberty and freedom and sacrifice it represents on this great day. I'll lay down my arms today (though they are at the ready to fight these infringing laws) but Ill pick them back up tomorrow and renew the fight.
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"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." --Jeff Cooper

Last edited by advocatusdiaboli; 07-04-2013 at 2:57 PM..
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  #200  
Old 07-04-2013, 3:09 PM
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I volunteer Yee to address the next tragic group of grieving parents mourning the loss of their children after the inevitable school shooting in the future. He can simply say:

"Although we didn't actually do anything to make schools safer -

Such as allowing qualified staff to carry concealed weapons -

Or randomly assigned undercover plain clothes school marshalls -

Please take comfort in the fact your children's murders will be exploited to disarm law abiding tax paying citizens and veterans..."
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