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  #1  
Old 12-14-2012, 11:43 AM
stilly stilly is offline
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Default .45 ACP and COAL

hehe.

I made the mistake of dropping my COAL on my second .45 acp round to 1.200 based on what I saw listed for a different load from the Hogdon site.

I made a dummy round to see if it would fit and it did not allow my ria to go into battery. SO then my question is, What COAL do others use to reload for their .45s?

I was told that it might be that I did not crimp enough and as a result the bullet was maybe too wide to fit into the chamber all the way.

BTW, I am loading Rainier 185gr PHP. I ordered some 230gr PRN from Extreme Bullets but they are about a week and a half out per the nice lady on the phone.

I am gonna go measure some of my purchased reloads and some of my other bullets to get an idea but if I get stumped it would be nice to know what others are running. I am gonna go check my BoLee and BoLy also...

Oh yeah, so far it looks like I am gonna be around the 5.3gr of HP-38 and then after about 20 loads I am gonna try out some WST.
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  #2  
Old 12-14-2012, 11:46 AM
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Check your crimp might not be tight enough if its still flared it wont go all the way in the barrel
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  #3  
Old 12-14-2012, 12:47 PM
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1.250

Then again you should also be seeing if the barrel and round pass the "clunk test."
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Old 12-14-2012, 9:41 PM
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with my 230gr RN .. my loads OAL is @ 1.265 with 5.3gr of win 231..and i believe the case mouth is measured @ .470 or .469 after its crimped.
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:19 PM
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1.260 for 230 grn. 1.200 seems to short to me.
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:47 PM
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If I were to guess what clunk test is? It would be to remove the barrel and drop a bullet into the barrel. If it clunks all the way down it's good to go...
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Old 12-15-2012, 1:05 AM
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I use 1.26" for 230gr fmj RN and 1.23" for 230gr jhp. I crimp to 0.469"-0.471" at the case mouth.

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  #8  
Old 12-15-2012, 6:40 AM
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The OAL will depend on your chamber. I generally load truncated cone profile bullets in such a way that about .030" of bullet shank sticks out past the case mouth. This way the bullet is supported in the freebore and I have enough bullet shank in the case. If 1.200" OAL is too long for your chamber, shorten it but not too much. You want some bullet shank out past the case mouth. Take the barrel out and chamber the dummy round to see.
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  #9  
Old 12-15-2012, 6:55 AM
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1.260-1.265 with FMJ or LRN like everyone else, with a .470 crimp.

Plunk test is like a case gauge test.
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  #10  
Old 12-15-2012, 7:57 AM
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RIA seem to be a bit short in the freebore. I have to be careful with OAL especially with the stepped cast .452" LRN.

Check the bullet after chambering. Does it have rifling marks on it?

Check the "feel" at the case mouth. Does it feel like all the flare is removed? Maybe try coming down a half turn on the crimping die. The mouth should measure around .469" - .470"

1.200 is pretty short even for a 185gr HP.

For the 230gr RN you should be GTG at 1.25 - 1.26
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  #11  
Old 12-15-2012, 8:51 AM
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A crimp of .473 or greater is definitely too much.

Good luck and let us know how your load development goes.
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Old 12-15-2012, 8:58 AM
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1.260
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  #13  
Old 12-15-2012, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stilly View Post
My case mouth was at .473 or .476 SO I think it is possible that I did not crimp it properly.


Good info to have. I see the standard was 1.275 per the BoLee and there are a LOT of loads that fall under that and even less than 1.200 like, 1.190 and what not.

Does it matter really? I mean, Lets suppose the recipe that I see for blue dot has a listed minimum coal of 1.225. There is no harm in making it at 1.260 is there? I figured it would just mean there might be a tad less pressure, but that is a good thing for now since I am just trying to see how to make some rounds for the homecoming of an operator.
Unless you're messing around on the ragged edge of maximum loads .45ACP isn't terribly sensitive to OAL changes, within reason, of course. Blue Dot is probably as slow as you would want to go for .45ACP. You might actually run into underpressure problems like dirty/incomplete burning. Having said that, I also have a bottle of BD I bought specifically for making loud fireballs with my .45ACP.

Are you sure they have the right bullet in the data? 1.22" OAL is something I would more expect to see listed with a JHP or SWC bullet. 1.26" is about right for 230gr RN. Remember, the 1.22 listed is minimum OAL. I guess the answer to your question is "Yes. You will make less pressure with a longer OAL." What that will do with a slow powder like BD I wouldn't know. Remember also, slower powder will make for a less sharp recoil impulse. Go too light & you might get cycling problems.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackRydden224
I hope Ruger pays the extortion fees for the SR1911. I mean the gun is just as good if not better than a Les Baer.
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A Colt collector shooting Rugers is like Hugh Grant cheating on Elizabeth Hurley with a hooker.
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  #14  
Old 12-15-2012, 5:50 PM
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Originally Posted by NiteQwill View Post
1.250

Then again you should also be seeing if the barrel and round pass the "clunk test."
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  #15  
Old 12-15-2012, 6:02 PM
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Sounds like you have the crimp working now. As Fish pointed out, 45 Auto is one of the more forgiving calibers with regard to OAL, at least from a pressure standpoint. The OAL will affect feed reliably more than many calibers, so when you get an OAL that works in your 1911's for a given bullet profile, you are there.

Blue Dot is not difficult to ignite, so it should work fine in your loads. AA #5 and WST will also work well. I am not very fond of AA #7, so I don't load it much. I think you will find #9 a tad slow for 45 Auto.

Another standard for 45 Auto is Bullseye.

Good luck, have fun.
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Old 12-15-2012, 6:02 PM
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Sounds like you have the crimp working now. As Fish pointed out, 45 Auto is one of the more forgiving calibers with regard to OAL, at least from a pressure standpoint. The OAL will affect feed reliably more than many calibers, so when you get an OAL that works in your 1911's for a given bullet profile, you are there.

Blue Dot is not difficult to ignite, so it should work fine in your loads. AA #5 and WST will also work well. I am not very fond of AA #7, so I don't load it much. I think you will find #9 a tad slow for 45 Auto.

Another standard for 45 Auto is Bullseye.

Good luck, have fun.
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  #17  
Old 12-15-2012, 6:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stilly View Post
OKAY, here we go... (6 others are saying NOOOOO! WHY DID YOU ASK THAT!)

I am running the Rainier PHP that I bought back in DEcember of 2011 before I knew anything about reloading. I just was told that they were on sale and to check them out, so I got some php 185gr .45 acp (.451 or something) bullets from midwayusa. I also got some 9mm and 44 mag too.

Everytime I go to the range I come home with a lot of brass so I figure why go out and buy reloaded 45 ammo when I can just reload it here. Anyways, I swapped out my 44 plate for a clean plate and just started setting it all up. Now I plan to start reloading some .45 and until I get a progressive I have to make do with what I have here. I went to Hogdon and grabbed their reloading data but then decided to make the bullets a tad longer then what they showed to be safe so the longest I saw on their site was 1.200 SO I decided to make mine about 1.200. Then I ran into issues, but I think they had me back out the crimping die too much because the issues seem to have gone away now and I made 20 rounds and they all passed the clunk test.

Now I just need to get some cool loads and as it turns out, I already have some great powder so instead of burning out the rest of my blue dot on 44 mag, I am gonna burt it out on blue dot but I have a lot of others to test out too. Although I expect that I will return to HP-38 to use again and again but it is nice to know that I can load up blue dot and AA#7, AA#9 and WST... Happy happy joy joy!

Hmmm. Slower powder makes for softer recoil. Okay, so then that explains the building of loads. Well, I will see how it functions. I plan to start about middle of the road with BD. I just found my BoLy and BoLee last night and started comparing and yeah, had I consulted with those first then I would have longer initial loads. If I have any issues I will feed them to the glock. It will eat anything...
Is the only reloading data and information source you have the internet?

Slower powder doesn't necessarily mean less felt recoil. Compare something like N320 vs N340 in 45 ACP. Same bullet, going the same speed, N320 (the faster powder) is much less on felt recoil than N340.

You want a rule of thumb for less recoil use the lightest bullet at the minimum velocity, that will normally give the least recoil of any combination.
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  #18  
Old 12-16-2012, 2:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Steele View Post
Sounds like you have the crimp working now. As Fish pointed out, 45 Auto is one of the more forgiving calibers with regard to OAL, at least from a pressure standpoint. The OAL will affect feed reliably more than many calibers, so when you get an OAL that works in your 1911's for a given bullet profile, you are there.

Blue Dot is not difficult to ignite, so it should work fine in your loads. AA #5 and WST will also work well. I am not very fond of AA #7, so I don't load it much. I think you will find #9 a tad slow for 45 Auto.

Another standard for 45 Auto is Bullseye.

Good luck, have fun.
HAH! I beat ya to it.

I decided that I was gonna go to the indoor range tomorrow. SO, I made a few rounds.

I am gonna test them at the range tomorrow noonish or so...

Here is what I whipped up and why:

First the constants:
Rainier 185GR PHP (hey I gotta load something...)
CCI LP primers (saving the tulas for the 230gr)
1.240 OAL (I hope I chose wisely, the Lee turret actually kept things fairly close cept for a round or two that was about .012 or so over or under I bet it was the white lithium grease that I put on the die plate tonight- NICE and smooth like ball bearings now)
Data from Hogdon PDF, BoLee & BoLy...

Now the contestants:
40 rounds of HP-38 (because something tells me that I might be shooting this a lot in the near future)
5.32 gr starting load +/- .20 (made on the powder dropper, every so often the numbers got wacky)

30 Rounds of WST (orignally used for 9mm, now for .45 and maybe more 9mm in the near future)
10 each of 4.7gr, 4.9gr, and 5.1gr

30 Rounds of AA#7 (cause I had it and I saw it used for plated rounds per BoLee)
10 each of 11.7, 12.0, and 12.5

20 Rounds of Blue Dot (I found no official recipe and data seemed contradictory so I pulled numbers outta mah butt on an educated guess)
10 rounds each of 9.5 & 10.0 (BTW, BoLee used Blue Dot for 180gr and 200gr but NOT 185gr in their book, so I kinda mixed data from BoLee and Lyman)

20 Rounds of Bullseye (cause I finally bought it at the last group buy!)
10 each of 5.5 & 6.0 (cause they REALLY do not give you much to play with here).

I figure that this along with a few hundred .22 and some 44 mag should keep me happy and the people to my left and right on their toes tomorrow.

NOW, I am only shooting tomorrow for function and to see how accurate at say, 20 feet or so. If I see that I like how something shoots I will develop it further I guess. I DID think of making the bullets a bit longer but all that I tested pass the clunk test and the average length of the bullets listed was about 1.200 or less so I figure that 1.240 should be okay and safe.

Now, please tell me how I might find a powder a bit slow for .45 auto and what does that mean? Does that mean that it might not cycle or it will shoot like a .22 or what? Also, How do I get a fireball with Blue Dot?

I only used Blue Dot in my 44 mag and it has performed pretty good in that (not h-110 good, but good). If I want a fireball out of my 44 then I will shoot some 300-MP because THAT makes fireballs! I have proof, I have movies that show the fire from 300-MP outlasting H-110 by at least 1 frame and about an extra 8"-14" down... I wish I could put some longer fire out the barrel.

Anyways, I hope that all shoots well, and my next batch I think I will shoot for about 1.250 or so. I only racked the dummy round about 5 times and each time it had no problems loading.

Now I wonder if I should bring two of the three 1911s or just one... :\

Thanks for the help guys. I am just THAT much closer to full expertdom now...

Last edited by stilly; 12-16-2012 at 2:20 AM..
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Old 12-16-2012, 7:54 AM
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Bring two, range report when you get back.

If your OAL is OK for your magazines, I think you will find the round nose profile quite forgiving.

When you get bored with those, you need to pick up some 200gr LSWC's, they will tune your 45 Auto loading technique and get you really dialed on what your 1911's like and don't like. They make nice round holes too...

I think you will like the Bullseye. Great performer in .45 Auto (and many other calibers), really cost effective as well.

Have fun, good luck.

BTW, when I was loading on a Lee Classic Turret, I found keeping the plates lubed enough that if I started going too fast the plate would skip past the detent, was the right amount of lube. Anytime I was changing calibers I would clean the lube off the plate coming off and always put clean lube on the plate/caliber going on. Helped a lot with smooth operation.
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Last edited by Bill Steele; 12-16-2012 at 8:15 AM.. Reason: added the plate lube observation
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Old 12-16-2012, 8:10 AM
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Xtreme 230gr plated roundnose is one of my favorite 45 ACP bullets. I seat them at 1.260" for all my HK USP and my 1911's. My most accurate load is 4.4gr Titegroup and a Winchester Large Pistol primer. Another good load is 4.9gr AA#2.
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Old 12-16-2012, 8:47 AM
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Xtreme 230gr plated roundnose is one of my favorite 45 ACP bullets. I seat them at 1.260" for all my HK USP and my 1911's. My most accurate load is 4.4gr Titegroup and a Winchester Large Pistol primer. Another good load is 4.9gr AA#2.
i use the same bullets as well.. worked well for me.. im actually going to try different loads.. so far.. im liking the 5.3gr of win231.. gonna try a 4.9 load.. see how that works out..
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Old 12-16-2012, 9:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Steele View Post
Bring two, range report when you get back.

If your OAL is OK for your magazines, I think you will find the round nose profile quite forgiving.

When you get bored with those, you need to pick up some 200gr LSWC's, they will tune your 45 Auto loading technique and get you really dialed on what your 1911's like and don't like. They make nice round holes too...

I think you will like the Bullseye. Great performer in .45 Auto (and many other calibers), really cost effective as well.

Have fun, good luck.

BTW, when I was loading on a Lee Classic Turret, I found keeping the plates lubed enough that if I started going too fast the plate would skip past the detent, was the right amount of lube. Anytime I was changing calibers I would clean the lube off the plate coming off and always put clean lube on the plate/caliber going on. Helped a lot with smooth operation.
Hmmm. I dunno bout LSWC. I guess I can give them a try but they are not as shiny as copper plated so they do not catch my eye. I have some 230gr coming in from Extreme but they are a week out still due to the christmas rush. 0o0o0o They are cheaper from Xtreme. Okay, I will order a thousand from them. I keep forgetting that there is no gas system in the 1911 to get plugged up.

I noticed last night that the plate slipped past the detent just enough to stop the bullet on the way up, that was nice to see now I need to test it out with a full tube of powder (or put some lead over my resizer). Does not take much grease, maybe a 1/4 teaspoon and since it only cost $5 for the tube I am surprised that I have not heard of anyone doing this before this.

Take two? I will take the Taurus and the RIA because those are my two shooters. I will leave the g21 at home since we already know it will eat anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horton Fenty View Post
Is the only reloading data and information source you have the internet?
No. I have a 2nd edition Book of Lee and the 49th Book of Lyman. Plus somewhere around here I have the books from powder valley from the manufacturers and then I have recipes that I gather online from time to time for just such an event. I also go to handloader and look sometimes, but all of this was from my books and a pdf from hogdon. AND from time to time people sneak recipes over to my inbox when I start talking about them. Why do you ask, is there a cooler place to get recipes? a HUGE database hidden somewhere?
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Old 12-16-2012, 11:12 AM
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Echang72, I'm going to try out your W231 load out using your COAL, which is slightly longer than mine. Best thing about these forums is the exchange of info.
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:15 PM
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I load RN to 1.270 and HP, specifically XTP, to 1.230

My kimber seams to like them a little longer than what most people are saying.
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Old 12-16-2012, 5:41 PM
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1.200 is pretty short even for a 185gr HP.
No it isn't. 1.200" is common for JHP loads in the 45 ACP. Check your reloading manual.
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Old 12-16-2012, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Steele View Post
Bring two, range report when you get back.

If your OAL is OK for your magazines, I think you will find the round nose profile quite forgiving.

When you get bored with those, you need to pick up some 200gr LSWC's, they will tune your 45 Auto loading technique and get you really dialed on what your 1911's like and don't like. They make nice round holes too...

I think you will like the Bullseye. Great performer in .45 Auto (and many other calibers), really cost effective as well.

Have fun, good luck.

BTW, when I was loading on a Lee Classic Turret, I found keeping the plates lubed enough that if I started going too fast the plate would skip past the detent, was the right amount of lube. Anytime I was changing calibers I would clean the lube off the plate coming off and always put clean lube on the plate/caliber going on. Helped a lot with smooth operation.
Well Bill. I have to give it to you... If I did not bring TWO of mine to the range then this would have looked kinda bad for my ammo, but as it turned out, I think it looks pretty good and I am gonna have to whip up another batch of some stuff.

Constants: 1.229-1.253 Average was around 1.239 COAL
185GR Rainier PHP
CCI LPP
Mixed Brass

First the testing units.

One Taurus PT1911ALR STOCK (even the grips!) and one Rock Island Armory Tactical (black wooden grips upgraded to G10).



I shot all 100+ and got tired of writing down stuff. BTW, Some things I was kinda of startled at because I did not think that the .45 was supposed to shoot with a hard recoil and my first shot of the hp-38 almost jumped out of my hands. I guess I am used to the softness of the 44 mag.

Hp-38 shot good but I got the feeling that it was a little on the HOT side although I saw no real pressure signs (cause I do not know what to look for wink wink). No seriously, just burned cases, that was all. I actually wondered how it was that hp-38 is the favorite, I guess I just gotta get used to it. Accuracy seemed right on. Oh yeah, and it blew **** all over my arms. I figured that it looked like unburned powder. Sigh, 44 mag blue dot memories coming back... 40 rounds of this shot well.

Then I shot the others, right down the line, the HP-38 blew off the base plate of the cheapo mag that I had so I used a Wilson 47D for the rest of the shooting.

As you can see there are no signs of overpressure in the primers...





As for the WST, It seemed to get me NOTICEABLE FIREBALLS in the 5.1 and it was snappy in both guns. Oh yes, I had one FTF (RIA). I shot thirty rounds, 15 from each gun in 4.7, 4.9 & 5.1gr. Quite possibly the best loads were the WST 4.9 but I will of course have to make some more up for further testing. Accuracy seemed right on.

Then I moved on to shooting AA#7 in 11.7, 12.0, and 12.5gr 30 rounds or 5 rounds of each out of each gun per powder charge. I THINK that AA#7 at 11.7 gave me a larger fireball then the HP-38 or WST 12.0 and 12.5 seemed decent in both.

Next was the Blue Dot. WOW SOFT. These were like taking the "its a small world" ride at disneyland compared to the log ride from the other powders. I immediately noticed that these seemed very soft at 9.5 and 10gr. Oh yes, and the RIA had another FTF on the first round of the 9.5 AND on the 10.0 the RIA had 2 FTF. 2 of the FTF were with the bullet pointed up towards the barrel and only one was the bullet not really making it out of the mag, or rather it got stuck on the bottom of the ramp. The Taurus knew it was a dominating gun so it did not look over and tried to keep a straight face as the RIA struggled to fire... Oh yes, and now I KNOW I had unfired powder all over me because ONE of the flakes was a blue dot. I mean it was a REAL dot of powder that was BLUE. So the FBI can spot me now... I liked these. and I am lazy so I can just make Blue Dot for .44 and .45 now... All I need is an H110 load for .45 and I am SET. These did not thunder also, they were quiet compared to the others.

Finally I shot the last 20 rounds of Bullseye in 5.5gr and 6gr. They performed fairly well out of both guns-err, Sorry, I forgot, guess who had another FTF... Yeah the RIA knows that it has a problem, but no worries, It seems like it is in line with all the other 1911s out there, okay, at least just about all of the 1911s that I ever owned... 5.5 and 6.0 shot well. It jammed going UP into the chamber so it was stuck with the bullet touching the top of the barrel.

End of the night I figured that it was all good and I wanna make some more rounds but damn. You can talk all you want about how you think the Taurus 1911 is a POS but this one has now been upgraded to Operator status. At least until I get my Operator in that I happened to secure today. The Taurus performed flawlessly and took EVERYTHING that I gave to it. Tonight it once again reassured me that I made a good choice in SSE for it. It is the ONLY 1911 that I have ever owned that has NOT jammed. The Loaded MC Operator that I also owned also never jammed, but for that price it had better not. The RIA was able to fix most jam issues by simple reracking or removing the mag and putting the bullet back in and racking again. The second time it took all bullets with no issues. SO I guess that is not TOO serious. I know the RIA needs work so maybe this will allow me to get some better work done to it. Heh, maybe I can send it to heirloom precision and spend 3 big ones on it...

Anyways, I then pulled out the Deagle and blasted through 30 rounds of Blue Dot and then 10 rounds of H110. My snot tasted like metal by the end of the night and I pulled black stuff outta mah nose. But I also worked that range like a cheap whore and sucked up some serious brassage tonight including .223 and some 44 mag as well as 10mm...

Now I gotta go put the 44 mag back onto the turret and make up a bottle of H110.

Hey! So Commiefornia has a law that says you can not have more than 20 lbs of powder as a reloader but you can have all of the reloaded ammo that you want? Wow. I think I have about 17lbs of powder. I need to start loading... Tomorrow I will get a bottle of titegroup to try out that other .45 recipe.

I will also make my rounds longer next time and see if the RIA has issues still.

Thanks for the help and thanks for reading. Once I pick a round or two that I like I will have to move them to the chrono stage and see how they are handling.

Last edited by stilly; 12-16-2012 at 10:44 PM..
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  #27  
Old 12-17-2012, 7:11 PM
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echang72 echang72 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptmn View Post
Echang72, I'm going to try out your W231 load out using your COAL, which is slightly longer than mine. Best thing about these forums is the exchange of info.
hope it works out for you! let us know how it went..
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