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Optics, Mounts, Rails and Sights If it aims your firearm, post about it here.

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  #41  
Old 01-18-2013, 11:11 AM
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Thanks for this, I debated optics for a while and just ordered a TA11F, partly because of your work here.
No problem....you WONT be disappointed
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  #42  
Old 01-18-2013, 11:56 AM
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Great review! Very interesting and informative.

Quick question about the TA-33. On Trijicon's site, they say that you can use the TA-33 with both eyes open, bindon technology (or something similiar). Having both eyes open would help reduce the con of a low field of view. Your thoughts on this? I read this and found it to be a major selling point on the optic.

Of course, I have never had the chance to play with one.
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  #43  
Old 01-18-2013, 12:17 PM
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great write up!!!!!
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  #44  
Old 01-18-2013, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Spaceghost View Post
Great review! Very interesting and informative.

Quick question about the TA-33. On Trijicon's site, they say that you can use the TA-33 with both eyes open, bindon technology (or something similiar). Having both eyes open would help reduce the con of a low field of view. Your thoughts on this? I read this and found it to be a major selling point on the optic.

Of course, I have never had the chance to play with one.
Yes, the Bindon Aiming Concept is applicable to all of the ACOG series scopes that have the dual illumination feature. I will say this, however: You need to train and train A LOT to get used to the BAC because it is really weird at first to use both eyes open with one eye at 3x and the other at 1x. Secondly, because your using the eye that is not behind the reticle to aim, your POI will be slightly off of where it is pointing. It's not a big difference up close, but I really wouldnt use it for anything past CQB/30ft or so.

I find it very difficult, even after practice, to ignore the sight picture in the scope while using the reticle for the POI with the other eye. Maybe it's just me, but I find it hard to get used to. You have to be able to switch your focus on the object with either eye in a snap.....sometimes I literally have to close my dominant eye to occlude the image and get the proper picture with my non-scope eye and then open my dominant eye to re-obtain the reticle. Hard to explain, but it's just......hard Actually, if you have a front lens cover, you can occlude the sight picture while using the reticle and it works much better.

I just purchased a dual illuminated trij reflex sight (DOC Optic) that will go on top of the ACOG. I find it MUCH faster when both eyes are 1x.

As for reducing the con of the low field of view on the TA33, I'd say the only positive things for a low FOV in regards to the BAC is the fact that it's easier to ignore the sight picture because there's less image to distract you, and it's always like that. However, it's just as easy to do with the TA31 as well because the eye relief is so short; you simply adjust your stock back a ways and get your eye far away from the proper eye relief range. Doing this reduces the amount of the image you see through the scope, which is largely the same effect as having a small field of view. So they can both do it, but the TA33 doesnt require a stock adjustment.
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  #45  
Old 01-21-2013, 1:13 AM
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Thank you for this review. I'm planning on getting an ACOG in a few months and I'm leaning between the M150 or the TA31CH. More on the TA31CH because I rather have the crosshairs than a chevron even though I'm used to the latter.

The Army guys I work with switched to the Elcan SpecterDR's and they love them. I would get one however they cost almost double at $2K a scope. Still, being able to switch between 4X ACOG and 1X Red Dot CCO within the same optic is very beneficial.
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  #46  
Old 01-21-2013, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Bouy View Post
Thank you for this review. I'm planning on getting an ACOG in a few months and I'm leaning between the M150 or the TA31CH. More on the TA31CH because I rather have the crosshairs than a chevron even though I'm used to the latter.

The Army guys I work with switched to the Elcan SpecterDR's and they love them. I would get one however they cost almost double at $2K a scope. Still, being able to switch between 4X ACOG and 1X Red Dot CCO within the same optic is very beneficial.
ACOG's can do that too.....just added this to my setup yesterday: (And no batteries to boot!)

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  #47  
Old 01-21-2013, 11:44 PM
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Yeah I've seen these but the guys I know in SERT and the Army don't like that you break cheek weld using the red dot on the top. One SERT guy I know took his docter optic and placed it on the front of his rifle in 45 degree offset mount so he just twists the HK416 to the side and he can see down and use the red dot there. My boss here uses a Aimpoint T-1 as his offest mount for his M-4 with his ACOG.

The Army guys I'm with use SpecterDR's to replace the ACOG since it's a single optic that can do both. The lever on the left side of the optic is easy to switch and locks in place and I've messed around with one. The SpecterDR's 4X ACOG mode feels like the standard ACOG's. It's a crosshair though rather than a chevron. This replaced also the EOTech and Magnifier set up which they left on all the time anyways so many went back to ACOG's. The magnifier being tilted out of the way to use the EOTech CCO by itself made it awkward to handle as the weight was off, the magnifier stuck out, and it blocked the field of view.

I'm planning to do what my friend in SERT does with the ACOG and offset docter optic on my SCAR-L. For my SCAR-H I'm looking to putting a Leupold Mk. 6 which like the SpecterDR can switch from CCO to an optic but the Mk. 6 has 1x to 6x magnifications. Both at the moment I have offset/canted Ironsights as well.

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Originally Posted by goodlookin1 View Post
ACOG's can do that too.....just added this to my setup yesterday: (And no batteries to boot!)

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  #48  
Old 01-22-2013, 7:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Bouy View Post
Yeah I've seen these but the guys I know in SERT and the Army don't like that you break cheek weld using the red dot on the top. One SERT guy I know took his docter optic and placed it on the front of his rifle in 45 degree offset mount so he just twists the HK416 to the side and he can see down and use the red dot there. My boss here uses a Aimpoint T-1 as his offest mount for his M-4 with his ACOG.

The Army guys I'm with use SpecterDR's to replace the ACOG since it's a single optic that can do both. The lever on the left side of the optic is easy to switch and locks in place and I've messed around with one. The SpecterDR's 4X ACOG mode feels like the standard ACOG's. It's a crosshair though rather than a chevron. This replaced also the EOTech and Magnifier set up which they left on all the time anyways so many went back to ACOG's. The magnifier being tilted out of the way to use the EOTech CCO by itself made it awkward to handle as the weight was off, the magnifier stuck out, and it blocked the field of view.

I'm planning to do what my friend in SERT does with the ACOG and offset docter optic on my SCAR-L. For my SCAR-H I'm looking to putting a Leupold Mk. 6 which like the SpecterDR can switch from CCO to an optic but the Mk. 6 has 1x to 6x magnifications. Both at the moment I have offset/canted Ironsights as well.
The 45 degree cant mount is certainly another option, but I was messing with my rifle yesterday and came to some preliminary conclusions:

1) Much like the Eotech/magnifier combo that you mentioned (I once had this setup as well and hated the FTS magnifier), using the 45 degree cant mount blocks your field of view as well. The scope basically moves to the position of your non-dominant eye and makes using the reflex sight with both eyes open impossible, taking away the main advantage of a 1x reflex sight!

2) For me, though the "chin weld" issue does come into play, it is much faster for me to find the dot by simply lifting my head straight up, rather than turning/rotating my rifle. It's also more comfortable. Since I have a muzzle brake, shooting from a rotated position exhibits slightly different recoil characteristics....it tends to have muzzle rise that jumps up and right (I am a lefty shooter) since I rotate the rifle clock-wise. This isnt as much of a deal breaker though because as with anything, with enough practice you can become pretty proficient at it. #1 is a bigger concern to me that cant really be overcome.

Basically, it comes down to whether you want more peripheral vision and both eyes open, or a better cheek weld. Cheek weld is much less of a concern with me when it comes to CQB.

YMMV.
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  #49  
Old 01-25-2013, 1:53 AM
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great write up.

however, i have to say, while i've always liked the clarity and quality of image with the an acog, i really wish they would do something like what elcan does and have an 1x option/switch without charging $2k for it. i'm not a huge fan of having a fixed 3 or 4x optic on a rifle that is going to be used in close quarters most of the times.

although you guys bring up 45 degree mounted micro red dots. i notice that most right handed shooters mount on the right side and like mentioned, it blocks the field of view from the left eye. is there a reason most right handed shooters don't mount on the left side? - i imagine that since its just a small unit that needs to sit somewhere it can be seen and long hand guards and minimized gas blocks are readily available now, it can be placed somewhere where it won't interfere with grip/sling. or are there other factors considered that i haven't listed (i could give more details about what i'm thinking).

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  #50  
Old 01-25-2013, 8:36 AM
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Also with the RDS on top, vs. offset, you can still shoot & aim left handed. I have Dueck/Surefire RTS and can not use them when shooting left handed.
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  #51  
Old 01-25-2013, 9:14 PM
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Basically, it is really unnatural to turn the rifle "outside", meaning clockwise for a right handed shooter or counter-clockwise for a lefty like me. The main reason is because of the trigger hand position has to unnaturally turn underneath instead of a back of the hand facing up position. The stock also gets in a much more u comfortable position when you turn the rifle the wrong way.

Just my opinion....
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  #52  
Old 01-25-2013, 9:54 PM
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Great review. I have a TA33R-8.

After shooting with it, I can agree with everything that you said. It feels very fast. I am however, really interested in trying out a green horseshoe ACOG TA33. The green is supposed to be great for daylight and the horseshoe gives a better/bigger dot when shooting short range quickly moving from target to target. But who knows. It is a great optic and I love it. Thanks for the review.
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  #53  
Old 01-26-2013, 2:58 PM
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What do you guys think about the RCO?
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  #54  
Old 01-26-2013, 4:17 PM
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Wow. Great job, thanks for the work you put in.
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  #55  
Old 01-27-2013, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Fr0ntSight View Post
What do you guys think about the RCO?
It's a great scope, same as the TA31F except for the horizontal lines for windage. And the RCM-M4 is designed for a 14.5" barrel vs the TA31F's 20" M16 barrel. And the elevation/windage caps are wired on so you cant lose them.

Other than those differences, they are the same exact scopes in all other aspects.
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  #56  
Old 01-27-2013, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mag360 View Post
Great review. I have a TA33R-8.

After shooting with it, I can agree with everything that you said. It feels very fast. I am however, really interested in trying out a green horseshoe ACOG TA33. The green is supposed to be great for daylight and the horseshoe gives a better/bigger dot when shooting short range quickly moving from target to target. But who knows. It is a great optic and I love it. Thanks for the review.
The green reticle does stand out well. My only problem with the green in my opinion is the issue with nature's common colors: When you have a situation when you are in a shaded or darkened area looking out into a bright area, the reticle will be MUCH darker and will tend to blend in with any green foliage. If you are out in the bright sun it wont be a problem at all because the bright green reticle will glow much brighter than any leaves, trees or grass.

The same issue happens with the red reticles, however red is much more uncommon in nature and will stand out better under such conditions. Of course, this is just the way I see the colors and it may be different for other people, so you have to find out what works better for you.

As for the horseshoe, I have actually never looked through an ACOG with that reticle, but I can imagine liking it. I dont like the donut reticle due to a greater difficulty with precision. I mean, they are not precision scopes by any means, but a donut doesnt have a dot or a point to put on your target. It seems to me it would be best served in CQB situations. It's a guess, but outside of 50 yards or so, it seems it would be harder to hit your target exactly where you want to.

I even find the dot to be difficult at longer distances because depending on its' MOA size, it may cover up your target. Better than the donut for sure, IMO, but this is why I like the Chevron the best: The pointy tip never covers your target.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. As always, everyone's situations and preferences are different, so YMMV.
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  #57  
Old 01-27-2013, 8:50 PM
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Originally Posted by goodlookin1 View Post
ACOG's can do that too.....just added this to my setup yesterday: (And no batteries to boot!)


That is an awesome setup IMHO.

I plan on getting one just like it (with a killflash & butler creek covers) soon.

Thanks for making me greener with envy.
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  #58  
Old 01-28-2013, 6:20 PM
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That is an awesome setup IMHO.

I plan on getting one just like it (with a killflash & butler creek covers) soon.

Thanks for making me greener with envy.
Like this?



You'd prolly wanna turn the lens cover downward though because as it is in the pic, it gets in the way of the RMR.
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  #59  
Old 01-29-2013, 3:10 AM
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Why isn't this a sticky yet??
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  #60  
Old 01-29-2013, 4:18 PM
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I have the TA33 with green horseshoe and it is awesome. Very quick and for me easier to see than red (I have a aimpoint micro and had a tripower). I liked the green so much that I bought an Accupoint with green triangle as well.

Like goodlookin said, its not a precision optic and the center dot of the horseshoe will cover up a lot of the target, whereas you can use the tip of the cheveron. But, the horseshoe make it really quick to get on target, almost like using the outer ring of an EoTech.

And if you were curious, the center dot of the horseshoe is 2MOA @ 100M, the horseshoe is 19" @150M, the opening at the bottom of the horseshoe is 19" @ 300M

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  #61  
Old 01-29-2013, 4:39 PM
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I just looked at Trijicon's website, it looks like more of the reticle is now illuminated.
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Old 01-30-2013, 6:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Sumo99 View Post
I just looked at Trijicon's website, it looks like more of the reticle is now illuminated.
Which reticle are you talking about? I'm not sure Trijicon has changed any reticles to have more illumination. But I very well could be wrong on that.

It's weird though.....my TA11E has a red chevron as well, but the bottom tips are NOT illuminated and are cut off with two tiny sharp black points. Never could figure this out. Also, the first line underneath is not illuminated all the way to the 300 hash mark......it only goes half way. This is unlike the 5.56 TA31F reticle that has the entire chevron illuminated and the entire first has verticle line to the first hash mark illuminated. I should probably email Trijicon about this as I have been curious ever since I saw it.
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Old 01-30-2013, 6:21 PM
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On my TA33, the horseshoe, center dot and the horizontal line of the BDC is illuminated about half way before the 1st hash mark (300M). Now, on the trijicon website, it looks like most of the BDC is illuminated down past the 400M mark, but the color is slightly different. Maybe it's just the image on the trijicon's site.
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Old 01-31-2013, 8:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Sumo99 View Post
On my TA33, the horseshoe, center dot and the horizontal line of the BDC is illuminated about half way before the 1st hash mark (300M). Now, on the trijicon website, it looks like most of the BDC is illuminated down past the 400M mark, but the color is slightly different. Maybe it's just the image on the trijicon's site.
No, you're right: This must be new! There are two different colors a lighter brighter center, then a darker extended color, then black stadia lines. I wonder if this means that the bright center is the fiber illumination for daylight usability, then the darker part is the tritium that has been extended past the fiber illumination?

That's the only thing I can think of. If yours is BRAND new, then try it out at night in the pitch black.

I can tell you that my TA11E is pretty dang new and it doesnt have the extended tritium areas (if indeed that's what the pictures are indicating on Trijicon's website). I received mine in the mail on 9/11/12 (of all days). I tried looking on the net to see if they changed anything up and couldnt find anything. Yet another question to ask Trijicon.
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Old 01-31-2013, 8:58 PM
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Great write up. Nice to read.

I agree that for me, the field of view was important to me and my natural head position for irons anyway on an AR is where I like the TA31 anyway. I have a TA31DOC, so a Doc Optic on top like on here too. Good setup.
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Old 02-04-2013, 6:50 PM
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Great write up and helped me choose the TA11 for my rifle with all the info provided by the OP and the others in the thread.

One question though, what seems to be the ideal placement for the TA11 on the flat top rail. Do you guys put yours as far back as possible so it is almost touching the rear flip sight? This seems to make access to the charging handle slightly more difficult as you have to slide your hand under the rear of the scope. If you mount if forward then you take away eye relief unless you snug up to the handle. Right now I have mine all the way back and seems to provide a comfortable view with the stock out in position 2. Just curious what you guys have noticed in your mounting locations?
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Old 02-04-2013, 11:33 PM
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Have you used/evaluated the TA31RMR? Is the secondary sight worth it?
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  #68  
Old 02-05-2013, 6:31 AM
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Originally Posted by lavey29 View Post
Great write up and helped me choose the TA11 for my rifle with all the info provided by the OP and the others in the thread.

One question though, what seems to be the ideal placement for the TA11 on the flat top rail. Do you guys put yours as far back as possible so it is almost touching the rear flip sight? This seems to make access to the charging handle slightly more difficult as you have to slide your hand under the rear of the scope. If you mount if forward then you take away eye relief unless you snug up to the handle. Right now I have mine all the way back and seems to provide a comfortable view with the stock out in position 2. Just curious what you guys have noticed in your mounting locations?
It really depends on where your stock placement is, or what type of stock you have. If you have a standard adjustable stock, then the mounting options are very flexible. For me, I have my CTR stock in on the first click position (so not all the way in, but about 1.5" from castle nut) and the ocular lens is placed about an inch forward of the charging handle.

In any case, you certainly have more options than the TA31, but not as many as the TA33. Just place it where it feels comfortable to you and so that a normal, comfortable cheek weld will give you a full sight picture. It will probably also depend on whether your benching the rifle or standing. Ideal eye relief is about 2.4-2.5" on this scope.

Hope this helps, and congrats on your purchase!
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Old 02-05-2013, 6:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphf21 View Post
Have you used/evaluated the TA31RMR? Is the secondary sight worth it?
I've only played with it around the house/backyard. I've yet to shoot with it on there.

Sounds ridiculous, but I can notice a small weight difference. My initial impressions are mixed: One one hand, I LOVE the both eyes open. I feel it will make CQB a LOT faster. I find it very natural to move straight up and down from the ocular lens of the ACOG to the RMR just above it. Takes a little practice I suppose, finding the right "chin position", but just going back and forth for 5 minutes gets you a good idea of where you need to be. Much faster IMO than a 45 cant mount.....but that's personal preference. One more thing I really like is that going from the RMR to the ACOG, your mind remembers exactly where the dot was in relation to the point of aim, so when you drop your head really quickly to view through the ACOG, the reticle is already spot on target.

One thing I dont like about it is the mount that it uses (my TA31 doesnt have the mount supports natively on the body) makes it feel like there is a huge black border around the eye piece. It makes you VERY aware of just how close the ocular lens is to your eye, and on a TA31.....it's really close Without it, you only see a very small border around the sight picture, but with it, it cuts out a good portion of peripheral vision. For some reason, it creates an illusion that your field of view is smaller than without the mount. This isnt the end of the world though, as peripheral vision when viewing through a scope isnt all so necessary. If you need an overall view, just lift your head for a chin weld and use the RMR and you can see everything.

I'll give a review of it after I get some trigger time with it......these are just my initial impressions, and they may change after real testing.
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Old 02-05-2013, 6:55 AM
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why isn't this a sticky?
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Old 02-05-2013, 1:03 PM
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why isn't this a sticky?
Is there an official, "Path to Sticky" method?
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Old 02-05-2013, 3:20 PM
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Good write up, thanks.

I have TF31RCO M4CP, BAC

Im planning to mount RMR, i cant decide which one, any recommendation?


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Old 02-05-2013, 5:29 PM
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It really depends on where your stock placement is, or what type of stock you have. If you have a standard adjustable stock, then the mounting options are very flexible. For me, I have my CTR stock in on the first click position (so not all the way in, but about 1.5" from castle nut) and the ocular lens is placed about an inch forward of the charging handle.

In any case, you certainly have more options than the TA31, but not as many as the TA33. Just place it where it feels comfortable to you and so that a normal, comfortable cheek weld will give you a full sight picture. It will probably also depend on whether your benching the rifle or standing. Ideal eye relief is about 2.4-2.5" on this scope.

Hope this helps, and congrats on your purchase!


Thank you Sir. Your review was one of the factors that helped me decide between TA11 and TA31 models. I am going to start with it just in front of the rear sight and see how that works with bench shooting and practical fast target type shooting with movement and different shooting positions.
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Old 02-05-2013, 5:32 PM
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Like this?



You'd prolly wanna turn the lens cover downward though because as it is in the pic, it gets in the way of the RMR.


very nice set up. I am going to add the RMR at some point. I can't believe they want like $140 for the killflash for the TA11.
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Old 02-05-2013, 5:59 PM
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Good write up, thanks.

I have TF31RCO M4CP, BAC

Im planning to mount RMR, i cant decide which one, any recommendation?


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Well at this point, I probably cant give a definitive review as I havent used the other versions of the RMR. But having said that, I can say that the RMR04 has met my expectations. The amber dot (7 MOA) glows bright in all situations and if anything, in the daylight it is too bright. I have seen people say this about ACOGs, but have never experienced that....they have all had the right amount of brightness in the daytime. But the RMR appears brighter for some reason. It appears to employ a different kind of fiber optics than the ACOGs, or maybe it is just a light diffuser.....maybe they help gather more light? I dont know....Something inherent in the technology is different and I havent read up on it.

I was initially concerned with the brightness in low light situations, but now I am not. I feel that in all situations, the RMR has very good brightness levels. About the only time I can see an issue is if you are in a very dim area looking into a very bright area that has a light brown/yellow/tungsten'ish color (same color as dot). At night in the house, dot shows up perfectly. Ive tried creating situations where the dot doesnt show up and they are difficult to come by. There are situations that are less than "ideal", but still very usable.

The other versions of the RMR are battery operated.....one a non adjustable brightness LED and another an adjustable brightness LED. depending on the model, I opted for the fiber/tritium combo for the same reasons as I chose the ACOG. I love the self adjusting technology without the use of buttons, and I like the never-ending supply of light (well, 12 years of tritium anyway....the fiber will last forever). As for the battery operated models, the batteries last anywhere from 2 to 5 years on the non-adjustable version, or 4 years on power level 4 of 8 levels on the adjustable model. As far as I can tell at this time, the battery options have two pro's over the RMR04 (tritium/fiber model):

1) In those few scenarios where the reticle washes out completely, the battery will power the LED to power through dark/bright conditions. Obvious pro.
2) The bigger con to me, not much of one, but noticeable, is the frame around the sight window. Because of the fiber lines going over the sides and the top, the frame housing is much thicker. On the battery models, all the frame needs to hold is the reflective glass eye piece, making a thick frame unnecessary. It gives the user less of a window/scope feel and more of an "open" feeling. Again, this isnt a huge issue for me because my eye is already pretty far away from the viewing area so I get a good field of view and unlimited peripheral vision. But in my opinion, the thinner, the better. So the winner of this feature is the battery operated models.

EDIT: I was wrong....the thinner window was exhibited on the older versions of the RMR (dont remember the name/model). Now they are all the same, whether battery or fiber/tritium. Winner (IMHO): Fiber/tritium model.

As for reticle type and size, I believe the only options are a dot and a triangle.....and those are ONLY available with the dual illumination model. The LED models are red only and dot only. This is completely open to preference and I dont believe gives an advantage either way. Dot vs triangle in such a small sight at 1x makes no practical difference. The size of the dot/triangle, however, does. I have the smallest dot size made in the dual illuminated versions is 7 MOA, which is what I have. I believe they make a 9 MOA and a 13 MOA in the same model, both in green and amber. As for the LED models, the only choices are 3.25 and 6.5 MOA. Personally, I dont like the big huge dots, so I opted for the smallest available dot. However, it could be argued that in the dual illuminated model, the bigger the better for the dark/bright situations where the reticle washes out. The more reticle in the window, the better the chance it will draw your eye. In normal situations, I feel the 7 MOA does just fine at this. As I said before, it can get TOO bright.

Anyway, hopefully some of this info helps.
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Old 02-06-2013, 4:37 PM
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Here is my set up just got the ACOG in a few days back. I went with the green cross hair reticle.
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Old 02-07-2013, 2:23 AM
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Great write-up. I was really interested in your findings on field of view as it wasn't what I was expecting. Thanks for taking the time to take all those pics.
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Old 02-07-2013, 11:40 AM
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Here is my set up just got the ACOG in a few days back. I went with the green cross hair reticle.
Nice schtick! Sweet Vltor upper too
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Old 02-07-2013, 11:43 AM
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Great write-up. I was really interested in your findings on field of view as it wasn't what I was expecting. Thanks for taking the time to take all those pics.
No problem.

Just as a matter of curiosity, what findings were you surprised by in regards to the field of view? If I had to take a stab at it, it would be surprise over the opposite of the inverse relationship between magnification and FOV.....but that's just a guess
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Old 02-08-2013, 2:06 PM
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Nice schtick! Sweet Vltor upper too

Thanks, yes I like the monolithic VLTOR that Noveske uses. Should be doing some break in range time in the next few weeks. Have never used a TA11 optic before but I am guessing they are pretty darn close from the factory for 100 yard sight in. Although there was a thread that I saw that suggested sighting in the TA 11 at 60 yards zero and 1.4" high at 100 yards to be fully dialed in for the longer distances using the BDC.
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