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  #1  
Old 12-08-2012, 9:30 AM
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Default MIL ID question

So I've got a customer for whom I'm doing a long gun transfer. He is a CA resident but his license is expired and he is waiting on the new one. He is also an active duty Marine and can provide that ID and orders. My question is can I do this transfer with just MIL ID, orders, and a gov document with his current address? Reading the 4473 instructions it seems the mil exception is only for when the buyer has residency other than CA. What about DOJ? Will they accept mil ID when the buyer is a CA resident? Seems they should, but I don't want to run afoul in a future audit. He's been waiting four weeks so far for his new license. Do I make him wait till it comes??
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  #2  
Old 12-08-2012, 2:43 PM
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http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs#14G

Quote:
14. What identification is required for a person to purchase a firearm?

Clear evidence of identity and age is defined as a valid California driver's license or a valid California Identification Card issued by the DMV. Military identification is also acceptable if accompanied by permanent duty station orders indicating a posting in California, but the dealer must retain copies of both documents.

Temporary driver licenses and temporary identification cards (issued without photo) are not accepted forms of proof of identity and age.

(PC section 12071(c)(1))
Note, the CA PC section has changed.
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  #3  
Old 12-08-2012, 5:14 PM
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Thanks Kemasa, but what about the Fed? Question 20a in particular on the 4473?

I have also been wondering in general about the DOJ additional proof of residency for military buyers. do they still need to come up with a bill, etc. if they present mil ID and orders? I can't seem to find an answer on that either.

Greg
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  #4  
Old 12-09-2012, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy's Shooting Sports View Post
Thanks Kemasa, but what about the Fed? Question 20a in particular on the 4473?
The Feds are no problem as long as it is a government issued document. Check out the instructions for 20a. You need a government document for their name (identity which means a photo), residence address and birthday.

Quote:
I have also been wondering in general about the DOJ additional proof of residency for military buyers. do they still need to come up with a bill, etc. if they present mil ID and orders? I can't seem to find an answer on that either.
Ok, just to be clear, there is no "additional" proof of residency for handguns for CA because CA does not consider a CA ID/DL to be proof of residency for handguns, which means that the primary proof of residency is another document for handgun transfers. I asked the DOJ about this and was told it was because there are some people who need a CA DL for their job, but live in NV (which should have their NV address, so that would prove their NV residency, but the DOJ does not get that).

The military orders would be the proof of residency:

Quote:
26845. (a) No handgun may be delivered unless the purchaser,
transferee, or person being loaned the firearm presents documentation
indicating that the person is a California resident.
(b) Satisfactory documentation shall include a utility bill from
within the last three months, a residential lease, a property deed,
or military permanent duty station orders indicating assignment
within this state
, or other evidence of residency as permitted by the
Department of Justice.
(c) The firearms dealer shall retain a photocopy of the
documentation as proof of compliance with this requirement.
http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#3

Quote:
3. What is the process for purchasing a firearm in California?
...
As part of the DROS process, the buyer must present "clear evidence of identity and age" which is defined as a valid, non-expired California Driver's License or Identification Card issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles. A military identification accompanied by permanent duty station orders indicating a posting in California is also acceptable.

If the buyer is not a U.S. Citizen, then he or she is required to demonstrate that he or she is legally within the United States by providing to the firearms dealer with documentation that contains his/her Alien Registration Number or I-94 Number.

Purchasers of handguns are also required to provide proof of California residency, such as a utility bill, residential lease, property deed, or government-issued identification (other than a drivers license or other DMV-issued identification).

(PC Section 12071)
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  #5  
Old 12-10-2012, 10:07 AM
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OK, got it.

Its bothersome that DOJ creates FAQs that don't reflect what is said in the penal code....

So, MIL ID and orders for fed and state and a gov't issued document with address for fed.
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  #6  
Old 12-10-2012, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy's Shooting Sports View Post
Its bothersome that DOJ creates FAQs that don't reflect what is said in the penal code....
Yes, plus the PC can also allow the DOJ to make regulations, which then it part of the law, but which is not specifically listed in the PC.

Quote:
So, MIL ID and orders for fed and state and a gov't issued document with address for fed.
Yep.
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  #7  
Old 12-11-2012, 5:55 AM
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Quote:
14. What identification is required for a person to purchase a firearm?

Clear evidence of identity and age is defined as a valid California driver's license or a valid California Identification Card issued by the DMV. Military identification is also acceptable if accompanied by permanent duty station orders indicating a posting in California, but the dealer must retain copies of both documents.

Temporary driver licenses and temporary identification cards (issued without photo) are not accepted forms of proof of identity and age.

(PC section 12071(c)(1))
How can the dealer retain a copy of the military ID when it is a violation of Federal law for a non-government party to copy any Federal identification card or credential? I thought the dealer only had to reference the ID card type and number.

See the link.

Army.mil Link

Last edited by EOD Guy; 12-11-2012 at 6:02 AM.. Reason: Add link
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  #8  
Old 12-11-2012, 8:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EOD Guy View Post
How can the dealer retain a copy of the military ID when it is a violation of Federal law for a non-government party to copy any Federal identification card or credential? I thought the dealer only had to reference the ID card type and number.

See the link.

Army.mil Link
"This prohibition, however, does not apply to government agencies," said Robert Krauer, director of Aberdeen Proving Ground Emergency Services. "Police can make copies for official purposes

Since it is a requirement of DOJ and not just "the policy of a commercial establishment", I would think it is ok. I copy mil ID's all the time. I have never had anyone squawk about it. This includes many officer who you think would say something if it were an issue.

On the other hand, FBI, DHS, CBP, ICE, BATFE, etc., they are very adamant about not photocopying their ID.

I would welcome further input on this. Especially from DOJ.


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Mountain View,CA 94043
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  #9  
Old 12-11-2012, 10:51 AM
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CA does not seem to care about Federal law, so it would not surprise me that it would be a problem. I would guess that the Military should be asked about it. The CA DOJ might say that you don't have to copy the ID, but I would not count on that.
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  #10  
Old 12-11-2012, 3:51 PM
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So, I decided to call and ask about the issue of copying the Federal ID and was told that if the customer refuses, you can put that down and just record the information. I asked if the FFL can refuse since it is a violation of Federal law and was told that he had not been asked that question before. It was mentioned that this question came up around 4 months ago and has been discussed, but so far no answer.

Since it is a violation of Federal law and the CA law says that you have to violate Federal law, it seems best to violate CA law since you have a good basis for that. Or you could claim that you don't know the law and see if the person with the ID tells you not to copy it :-). I am not sure that would get you out of violating the Federal law though.
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  #11  
Old 12-12-2012, 9:03 AM
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Hmmm... Interesting

I think I will just continue to "violate" the fed law since nobody seems to care and it would require less explaining during an audit.

Thanks again Kemasa for researching this.


Eddy's Shooting Sports
400 Moffett Blvd, Suite F
Mountain View,CA 94043
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  #12  
Old 12-12-2012, 10:52 AM
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During HSC training I was instructed to never copy federal ID but it was OK to write down the information. Sounds like you're either going to break federal or state law. Who are you more likely to get in trouble with?
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  #13  
Old 12-12-2012, 3:11 PM
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Since it is against Federal law to copy a Federal ID, the CA law which requires it should be consider not valid. So, to me, it would be easier to get out of the CA law than the Federal law.
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