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  #1  
Old 12-27-2012, 12:39 AM
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Default Close call has me considering "less lethal" ammo (rubber/ bean bag). Please read!!!

I have read a few posts about cal gunners general take on "less lethal" ammo. Basically in regards to California law, and a the general statement "never aim at something you don't intend to destroy". but I would like to bring up a scenario that has me considering a "less lethal" ammo option.

A few years back, an intruder broke into my fathers house through a bathroom window. My dad heard the noise and thankfully was able to grab his gun before he encountered the man. The intruder was hopped up on drugs he requested money, drugs, he also said he had a gun (under his coat). He told my dad that he was his spirit.

My father had the intruder at gun point and was fearing for his life. As my dad made his way to the kitchen phone to call the police the unimaginable happened, The man rushed at him. My dad acted quickly, grabbing the kitchen chair with his free hand and shoving it into the mans torso was able to hold it between him and the intruder. When the police arrived, it took all four of them to detain the subject.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that there is no set way in which a robbery or break-in could occur. And you won't always know what to do if it happens. My dad is lucky, that chair may have saved his life. Had the man been able to grab my dad in that split second, my dad could have ended up dead. Possibly even by his own firearm. All because my dad had refused to shoot a possible unarmed man with a lethal round.

Last edited by Redsx13; 12-27-2012 at 12:51 AM..
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  #2  
Old 12-27-2012, 12:46 AM
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Moral of the story is don't grab a tool you're not willing to use. Period.
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:49 AM
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If it took 4 people to hold him down why would less lethal rounds be effective. I'm sorry but your dad should have pulled the trigger, the situation could have ended very badly for your father.
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:51 AM
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What ever happened to loading with a shotgun with rock salt as the first round, then buck shots. Was this just a movie idea or are there shells loaded with rock salt instead of pellets.

One option is to use a blank as first shot. The discharge of the blank will still hurt if the person at the end of the barrel. Then buck shot. Just my idea.
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:54 AM
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Why risk having the time to make two shots. Use the tool or be a victim.
Judged by 12 or carried by 6? Your choice.
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  #6  
Old 12-27-2012, 12:56 AM
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Why would you waste time with a less than lethal round? Either you need to stop an imminent danger or you don't. Rock salt won't do enough damaged to stop an intruder especially if they are tweeked out. Giving an intruder the benefit of 2 rounds gives then a second chance at getting to you or your loved ones. I doubt the scumbags would give you the same consideration.
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  #7  
Old 12-27-2012, 1:06 AM
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You're either in imminent danger of death, great bodily harm or injury, or some other person is... or not. "Less lethal" rounds are tools used by trained persons with backup from a firearm equipped cover. Used improperly, they can injure severely or kill. They simply aren't intended for use by a single, unsupported (and most likely untrained) person. Using "less lethal" ammunition against an aggressor in your home is failure, as is rock salt, birdshot, or anything supposedly "less lethal". Either you're justified in using lethal force when you fire a shotgun at a home intruder, or you're not. There's no middle ground, no wiggle room, it's a simple binary decision set.
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  #8  
Old 12-27-2012, 2:56 AM
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That was a risky gamble your dad took, I'm glad your dad was fine. Use a Taser or bear spray. Forget less lethal ammo. The time it takes to switch a loaded less lethal pistol to a lethal bullet will get you killed if the suspect was armed.

When I go check noises. I carry a Glock 22 with weapon light and a taser C2 (LED + laser) or bear spray. If the suspect wasn't armed I'd dropped him with a taser, I would avoid using a bear spray or pepper spray indoor as it turns a room unbearable from the fumes.

Switching to a Taser I can still have my hand on my glock 22 ready to shoot if suspect produces a weapon or Taser fails to stop him, happens at low percentage.

The Taser C2 is a 30 second ride, if the suspect doesn't comply give them another 30 seconds. I'm sure the first 30 second he will be begging not to tase him again, if you ever been tased for a few seconds and feels like eternity, imagine 30 seconds f that.

Last edited by kel-tec-innovations; 12-27-2012 at 3:04 AM..
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  #9  
Old 12-27-2012, 3:22 AM
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The incident you described exactly explains why less-than-lethal ammo is a bad choice except for LEOs is very special situations.

I can't imagine why this makes you think a non-lethal response would have been better. As you said it took 4 officers to subdue him. Bean bags or rubber bullets would have had zero effect on him and he already announced he had a gun.

You dad was simply lucky he wasn't injured or killed.
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  #10  
Old 12-27-2012, 4:29 AM
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So your dad violated the rules of home defense and you think less than lethal rounds would have given him common sense that real bullets didn't grant him?

If you want less than lethal get him the sabre defense home kit. A large can of pepper spray mounted by the front door and a pocket size pepper spray got his night stand.

I've used sabre red and it does work on some people but any determined person will still continue on after any thing less than enough blood loss to cause unconsciousness.

That said he should have the gun in the other hand and use it correctly.
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  #11  
Old 12-27-2012, 4:53 AM
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If you are not seriously ready to use the deadly weapon you have for HD, then the choice of a deadly firearm for HD may not be for you. As pointed out above there are other options.
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  #12  
Old 12-27-2012, 6:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobula View Post
Moral of the story is don't grab a tool you're not willing to use. Period.
I agree with this statement 100%.

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  #13  
Old 12-27-2012, 7:48 AM
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Less lethal does not mean zero lethal. still a chance of death to the target of the shot specially at close range i would imagine.
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  #14  
Old 12-27-2012, 7:52 AM
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Your dad is a very lucky man.

I know your father is thankful that he didn't have to take a life but I promise you the bad guy was upset he didn't get to take your dad's life and escape.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:11 AM
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Scary story. First, no less lethal in a firearm. Firearm=Deadly Force,period. LE uses less lethal only when they are backed up by.....officer(s) wielding lethal force.

Secondly, your assailant need not be armed to justify the use of deadly force. Disparity of force issues arise here. If the incident happened in CA. P.C. 198.5 applies.

And last but not least, if you arm yourself with a gun you damn well better have your mind wrapped around the idea you will shoot someone to save a life, period.

Just because you shoot an intruder doesn't mean they are going to be killed. Over 70% of gunshot victims survive. Think "Shoot to Stop". If they should expire due to your use of deadly force it's only because you were left with no choice. They pushed over the first domino in this train so to say. I say they "got what they bought", I just did what I had to do.

I'm glad it all worked out for your Dad. He didn't have a big "crime scene" to clean up afterwards, but it could have gone the other way just as easily.

Get some training. Learn the rules of engagement for the use of deadly force in and out of the home. And if you know deep inside you (this goes for everyone) that you can't pull the trigger on a theat, don't have/use a gun. Use something else. This is not an inditement of anyones charater, some have religous or moral apprehension to the possibility of taking a human life, even at the cost of their own and that's fine.
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  #16  
Old 12-27-2012, 2:07 PM
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I think he meant re-considering.
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  #17  
Old 12-27-2012, 10:00 PM
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  #18  
Old 12-27-2012, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobula View Post
Moral of the story is don't grab a tool you're not willing to use. Period.
QFT
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:35 PM
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If your pointing a gun at someone in fear of your life and you pull that trigger it is to end the threat not warn scare etc.. I have had a gun pointed at me before I complied right away . your dad was lucky to not be hurt
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kel-tec-innovations View Post
That was a risky gamble your dad took, I'm glad your dad was fine. Use a Taser or bear spray. Forget less lethal ammo. The time it takes to switch a loaded less lethal pistol to a lethal bullet will get you killed if the suspect was armed.
This. Taser or Bear Spray. Generally effective but still have a margin of error/failure, in which case firearm of choice comes into play.
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  #21  
Old 12-27-2012, 11:48 PM
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rather be judged by 12 than carried by six
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  #22  
Old 12-28-2012, 12:18 AM
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I think I would have pulled the trigger as soon as he said he had a weapon. He has already broken in and he's an immediate threat. Your father was well within' his right to defend himself and put that SOB down. Glad everything turned out okay for your father.

As far as less than lethal options...what's the point? If the intruder had a weapon I seriously doubt he would have less than lethal ammunition. If he pulled that weapon his intent would be to kill and no less.
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Old 12-28-2012, 1:04 AM
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less lethal isn't ideal, i agree, but if someone wasn't ready to use potentially lethal force, id much rather they have an "other" option.

same way i have a little bit more respect for someone who keeps themselves from buying a firearm because they know they wouldn't be ready (physical, psychological, etc) to use it properly if it came down to it or there is a slight chance they could end up abusing it VS nut jobs that put everyone else's gun rights under attack b/c said weapon was abused.
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Old 12-28-2012, 1:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eville View Post
Why risk having the time to make two shots. Use the tool or be a victim.
Judged by 12 or carried by 6? Your choice.
I agree with this... thank God your dad is ok... I would have killed the man... Your dad is super lucky... a guy hyped up on drugs would not feel beanbags or rubber slugs... I've fought with patients strung out on pcp... its nothing I want to repeat, although its happened 4 times with me... I must agree, if you're not prepared to use the gun then dont grab it...
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Old 12-28-2012, 3:54 AM
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Thumbs up I concur

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobula View Post
Moral of the story is don't grab a tool you're not willing to use. Period.


I concur whole-heartedly. Never draw a weapon unless your willing to use it. Just in arming yourself you must make a mental step to ready yourself to use deadly force imho . You will notice when LEO's get into a shooting situation they fire till they're empty usually. That's why you see the MSM crying like sissies about them firing dozens of rounds at a subject. That's because they're trained to eliminate the threat completely and rightly so. I wouldn't personally use less than lethal but that's up to each individual. The question you have to ask yourself is what if that bean bag doesn't stop them? Now the perp has your weapon and there's a good chance you're probably gonna get killed by your own firearm.
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Old 12-28-2012, 4:43 AM
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'OP I understand where you're coming from. Being new to guns I wasn't quite sure how to take the idea of having the power to take a life; it can, and should be, daunting to any NORMAL person. Additionally, when you look at our backwards culture where the rights of the criminal are just as important as the rights of the victim then one can't help but wonder if there's a way to defend yourself or your loved ones without winding up in jail in the process.

Not long ago I asked a similar question like yours and I took a lot of flak from it-I wrote it off as keyboard commandos and e-thugs strutting their stuff, but after thinking it over I decided that despite the douche-bag quality responses THEY WERE RIGHT for the following reasons:

1. Using non-lethal weapons/rounds will not guarantee the elimination of the threat to you or the people you are trying to defend. This could lead to you being overpowered and/or your weapon eventually being turned on you. In a contest of survival, if you truly want to live, you need to come out on top no matter what-all other priorities are rescinded or secondary at best.

2. "Dead men tell no tales." I think we have to resign ourselves to the idea that if we use lethal force to defend ourselves or our people we will probably face legal prosecution from the criminal's kin. But, if it's a matter of survival it's us or them and like others have said I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. If your attacker is DEAD then it will be very hard for anyone to make it seem as if the criminal(s) is the true victim, and your story of defending yourself or your people would be difficult to oppose; assuming of course that the rules of engagement were properly followed.

In summary, I agree with what's been already posted: if we're going to take up the heavy responsibility of using a firearm to defend ourselves or our people we have to be ready to use that weapon to its fully lethal capability; any hesitation on our part could be the end of us, legally and literally...
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  #27  
Old 12-28-2012, 4:55 AM
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Coopers rule #2...

Never let the muzzle cover that which you are not willing to destroy.

OP, your Dad should not have picked up the gun.

In regards to your original question, I disagree with the whole concept of "less than lethal", for use in a self defense situation.

Especially considering the apparent fact that the intruder was chemically fueled, there is no guarantee that less than lethal would be effective.

Personally, I've got small kids. I don't have the luxury of allowing anyone the potential to get past me, in the situation outlined in your post.
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Old 12-28-2012, 5:26 AM
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Two things come to mind. First, from your description, your father was in a textbook justifiable homicide situation. He could have pulled the trigger and been perfectly fine from a legal standpoint. Second, maybe the events were perceived by him differently than you explained and he didn't really feel it was a life or death situation. It's impossible for any of us to know as we weren't there. 185gr Critical Defense in .45acp for me.
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Old 12-28-2012, 6:13 AM
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You want a deterrent with backup firepower...

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Old 12-28-2012, 6:38 AM
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Discharging a firearm equates to deadly force, no matter what type of ammo is being discharged.

less lethal ammo and regular (lethal) ammo have the same standard when determining if it's use is legal.
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Old 12-28-2012, 6:42 AM
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Even LOEOs get special training and keep the suspect covered by a different officer with a regular firearm and regular ammo before they deploy less leathal ammo. So, go get the special training and ALWAYS have an extra person armed with regular ammo before trying something stupid like using less leathal ammo to save your life. Basically, if you're not prepared to do what it takes to save your life, don't even attempt to use a firearm for show only. It will end badly for you.
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Old 12-28-2012, 7:56 AM
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Such fail. Once the guy rushed your father, the threat should have been stopped instantly. What did your father lay down the gun, tell the guy I going to call the cops just wait here?? LMAO
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Old 12-28-2012, 8:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kel-tec-innovations View Post
That was a risky gamble your dad took, I'm glad your dad was fine. Use a Taser or bear spray. Forget less lethal ammo. The time it takes to switch a loaded less lethal pistol to a lethal bullet will get you killed if the suspect was armed.

When I go check noises. I carry a Glock 22 with weapon light and a taser C2 (LED + laser) or bear spray. If the suspect wasn't armed I'd dropped him with a taser, I would avoid using a bear spray or pepper spray indoor as it turns a room unbearable from the fumes.

Switching to a Taser I can still have my hand on my glock 22 ready to shoot if suspect produces a weapon or Taser fails to stop him, happens at low percentage.

The Taser C2 is a 30 second ride, if the suspect doesn't comply give them another 30 seconds. I'm sure the first 30 second he will be begging not to tase him again, if you ever been tased for a few seconds and feels like eternity, imagine 30 seconds f that.
^^^^ this
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Old 12-28-2012, 8:10 AM
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Your dad is lucky, IMO.
I would never count on having the same kind of luck.
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Old 12-28-2012, 9:01 AM
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In my limited observations, LEOs only use less than lethal rounds when the bad guy is not armed. I could be wrong, it has happened once or twice before.
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Old 12-28-2012, 9:47 AM
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I don't see why less than lethal would have helped, especially on a guy hopped up on drugs. A slug or buckshot would have been the show stopper. I can imagine shooting this guy with a bean bag, pissing him off, and having him beat your Dad with the shotgun...not a good outcome..
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:45 AM
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He has already shown himself to be dangerous by entering a house where a person is presumed to be sleeping and living

He entered the castle, he has one of two ways of exiting the castle, body bag or wounded and handcuffed to a stretcher....
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Old 12-28-2012, 2:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myk View Post

Not long ago I asked a similar question like yours and I took a lot of flak from it-I wrote it off as keyboard commandos and e-thugs strutting their stuff, but after thinking it over I decided that despite the douche-bag quality responses THEY WERE RIGHT for the following reasons:
.........
In summary, I agree with what's been already posted: if we're going to take up the heavy responsibility of using a firearm to defend ourselves or our people we have to be ready to use that weapon to its fully lethal capability; any hesitation on our part could be the end of us, legally and literally...
Thanks for acknowledging that us keyboard commando, e-thug, douche-bags, are doing more than strutting our stuff. After all we are only keyboard commandos, e-thugs & douch-bags our opinions are only worthy if you say so.
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  #39  
Old 12-28-2012, 2:47 PM
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SNCaliber SNCaliber is offline
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at numerous points, the intruder exposed himself as a threat, and when he lunged at your dad that should have been the last straw to use the weapon, its a HD weapon for a reason and it would have been self defense
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  #40  
Old 12-28-2012, 4:58 PM
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Arisaka Arisaka is offline
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No. Man breaks in and threatens my life, he's going home in a bag. I'm not an armchair badass, I mean it.
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