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  #81  
Old 12-07-2012, 8:11 AM
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From a guy that's actually on that list...just a few thoughts...

The PRS finale consisted of competitors that earned their slot in the match by being one of the top 55 shooters in a series of matches all across the country for the last year.

The majority of us are not snipers. We shoot at long range with precision rifles at little targets on a one-way range. We don't shoot from benches. Most of the time we're shooting from improvised positions off rickety barricades, rooftops, car doors, etc. We have to run to and from positions under tight time constraints carrying all our gear. We even get to shoot out of helicopters. This ain't high power.

We use the equipment we do because it offers us an advantage. That's why you don't see any 308s there. Whether shooting at paper or something breathing, our choice wouldn't be much different. Just check the energy at 1k of a 175gr SMK vs a 105 Berger doing 3150. The 6 and 6.5mm bullets have more energy at distance than a 308. That combined with the fact that the 6 and 6.5mms give you a greater chance of hitting at distance make them better choices than the 308...even when you need to make something stop breathing far away.

As for optics, I run Bushnell not only because they are a main sponsor, but because they just plain work. You couldn't pay me to run a Schmidt. All 3 S&Bs I've had have failed in competition. When you buy high end European optics, you don't always get what you pay for. The Bushnell G2DMR I'm running hasn't had a hiccup in I don't know how many flights across the country this past year. Zero stays right where its supposed to, unlike my S&Bs and Premiers.

Some of the guys on that list, myself included, are sponsored. What that sponsorship covers varies widely. Does that make us professionals? I can't say. I don't get paid to shoot. Some costs may be reimbursed but I can't pay my mortgage by shooting matches. Getting a free re-barrel doesn't pay my student loans either.

I'd encourage anyone interested to check out NCPPRC and CAPRC for local matches. Show up, ask questions, get behind some rifles and optics, and get started.
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  #82  
Old 12-07-2012, 9:09 AM
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Originally Posted by rksimple View Post
We use the equipment we do because it offers us an advantage. That's why you don't see any 308s there. Whether shooting at paper or something breathing, our choice wouldn't be much different. Just check the energy at 1k of a 175gr SMK vs a 105 Berger doing 3150. The 6 and 6.5mm bullets have more energy at distance than a 308. That combined with the fact that the 6 and 6.5mms give you a greater chance of hitting at distance make them better choices than the 308...even when you need to make something stop breathing far away.
Would your choices really be the same? I wouldn't think you'd be using SMK's or other match target bullets for hunting. Out of curiosity I did check a 308 175gr SMK doing 2600 vs a 6mm 105 Berger doing 3150 and yes, the 6mm has 100 more ft/lbs at 1000 yards. It's not really a fair comparison though. That Berger is heavy for caliber and has a sweet bc, the Sierra isn't close to being heavy for a 308.

Compare something more apples to apples. Like Sierra's 6mm 100gr SBT Gameking at 3150 and a Sierra 308 180gr SBT Gameking at 2600. The 308 has 250 ft/lbs more at a 1000. Step up the 308 to a 200gr SBT Gameking at 2400 and it's 300 more at a 1000. All the lethality of long range hunting bullet charts also suggest that even the slowest moving 308 is better for killing things at distance than all but the hottest 6.5's.
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  #83  
Old 12-07-2012, 9:28 AM
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Would your choices really be the same? I wouldn't think you'd be using SMK's or other match target bullets for hunting. Out of curiosity I did check a 308 175gr SMK doing 2600 vs a 6mm 105 Berger doing 3150 and yes, the 6mm has 100 more ft/lbs at 1000 yards. It's not really a fair comparison though. That Berger is heavy for caliber and has a sweet bc, the Sierra isn't close to being heavy for a 308.
Last few deer I've killed have been with match bullets. They die just the same.

Real deal snipers use match bullets as well. Hit percentages are higher with the 6s and 6.5s in varying conditions. That alone is enough to make me want to use them over the 308 in the event I have bullets coming my way.
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  #84  
Old 12-07-2012, 9:33 AM
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Many years ago at Coalinga, Alan Dapp was shooting a 6 or 6.5 at the 1000 yard line. The bullet went through the target, skipped out of the impact area, travelled basically "nap of the earth" over the 300' +- hill behind the impact area, and killed a cow grazing on the far side of the hill, below the crest. The range was over 1200 yards, after being "spent" by hitting the dirt in the impact area, and the bullet keyholed the cow in the neck. Dropped it deader than a mackerel.
I dont fool to much with ballistic calculators, but I believe any of these bullets (6, 6.5, 30 cal etc) are as good at 1000 as a 240 grain 44 mag at the muzzle.
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  #85  
Old 12-07-2012, 10:36 AM
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^always wondered who that was

I thought it was guido....

back to the show
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  #86  
Old 12-07-2012, 3:31 PM
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Originally Posted by rksimple View Post
Last few deer I've killed have been with match bullets. They die just the same.

Real deal snipers use match bullets as well. Hit percentages are higher with the 6s and 6.5s in varying conditions. That alone is enough to make me want to use them over the 308 in the event I have bullets coming my way.
I have killed a few animals with the Berger bullets. They work very well. A lot of people who do not shoot/hunt long don't understand that the most important part is to hit your target. It does not matter how much energy or how big your bullet is if you can't hit your target.
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  #87  
Old 12-07-2012, 7:16 PM
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It was already mentioned,

Just to clarify, the match I mentioned was at West End Gun Club- in north san bernardino. It was the big annual match called "SCPRC" (so cal precision rifle competition)

RKSimple knows damn well what he's talking about. He's been in this a while.

Short Action Precision mentioned the websites to watch if you're interested in taking a look at a match or participating.

Horton.....

Did you know that Army and Marine Corp snipers are using the Sierra Match King? They have been for quite some time. They dont use 'huntin boolits'. The assumption has been for a long time, that accuracy was key. With a high power rifle, a good hit is effective even with 'match bullets'. This was actually an issue for a while because of the geneva/hague convention regarding "hollowpoint" ammo. The SMK does in fact have a 'hollow' tip but its due to the manufacturing process- not intended to, nor have any effect on damage to targets- this was approved for military snipers after some debate, and is the current choice for most snipers around the world. Including Law Enforcement snipers unless its a shot through glass- then they use bonded. Some departments are moving to hornady TAP with Amax bullets since they have far less penetration- though they are not allowed by hague/geneva.

SMK or berger, lapua scenar arent very different bullets by design.... 308 , or a 6mm, 6.5mm at even higher velocities will still be devastating.

If you ever doubt that... then ask why the regular military is using 5.56 with debated 'acceptable' results... then nearly double the weight, add a bit to the velocity... A 6mm berger/vld/smk should kill just as effectively as the slower heavier 308 smk... This just seems silly to have to point out... since these are considered "high power" rifles, which is far more damaging than the standard 5.56.

So the simple question is....

Would you want to be shot with a 5.56?

That 6mm, 6.5,7mm is heavier, travelling a lot faster... Would you want to be hit with one of those instead?

No, it isnt a '308'.... but should be just as effective. Possibly more so because of the higher velocity, which could increase the cavitation or temporary cavity...

Those rounds would be just as effective for real snipers as the 308, and have the wind/trajectory advantage over the 308 which would mean more first shot hits.

Last edited by postal; 12-07-2012 at 7:32 PM..
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  #88  
Old 12-07-2012, 8:30 PM
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Horton.....

Did you know that Army and Marine Corp snipers are using the Sierra Match King? They have been for quite some time. They dont use 'huntin boolits'. The assumption has been for a long time, that accuracy was key. With a high power rifle, a good hit is effective even with 'match bullets'. This was actually an issue for a while because of the geneva/hague convention regarding "hollowpoint" ammo. The SMK does in fact have a 'hollow' tip but its due to the manufacturing process- not intended to, nor have any effect on damage to targets- this was approved for military snipers after some debate, and is the current choice for most snipers around the world. Including Law Enforcement snipers unless its a shot through glass- then they use bonded. Some departments are moving to hornady TAP with Amax bullets since they have far less penetration- though they are not allowed by hague/geneva.

SMK or berger, lapua scenar arent very different bullets by design.... 308 , or a 6mm, 6.5mm at even higher velocities will still be devastating.

If you ever doubt that... then ask why the regular military is using 5.56 with debated 'acceptable' results... then nearly double the weight, add a bit to the velocity... A 6mm berger/vld/smk should kill just as effectively as the slower heavier 308 smk... This just seems silly to have to point out... since these are considered "high power" rifles, which is far more damaging than the standard 5.56.

So the simple question is....

Would you want to be shot with a 5.56?

That 6mm, 6.5,7mm is heavier, travelling a lot faster... Would you want to be hit with one of those instead?

No, it isnt a '308'.... but should be just as effective. Possibly more so because of the higher velocity, which could increase the cavitation or temporary cavity...

Those rounds would be just as effective for real snipers as the 308, and have the wind/trajectory advantage over the 308 which would mean more first shot hits.
I did not know that military snipers use match target bullets. I did know the presence of a hollow point, or lack of one, doesn't automatically put a bullet in either the target or hunting category. I've always just taken the manufacturers at face value when they say "not recommended for hunting applications". I'm sure there's massive threads around debating target bullets for hunting, I'm off to find a few.

I have nothing against the smaller cartridges btw. My 243 I've had since I was 13 is my all around favorite rifle.
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  #89  
Old 12-07-2012, 9:15 PM
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It can be debated all day long and leave no real answer. I'm sure there are plenty of threads about match bullets against hunting.

For military snipers, it boils down to- Hitting the target is the most important thing. And with mil of course, the Geneva convention as well. Which limits to ball, and recently SMK, so more 'effective bullets' cant be used anyway. The SMK is highly proven as being an accurate long range bullet. So is berger VLD and Scenar.

As to hunting, I would expect a hunting bullet would be better, but match bullets would still be highly effective assuming good shot placement. A hunting bullet would produce more damage for given bullet caliber/weight/velocity, but a well placed match bullet would do the job. Think of it the same as the difference between an FMJ .45 compared to a hollowpoint .45. Both should do the trick... the JHP has an advantage in wound size. However, the military is not allowed to use that JHP... They only have fmj ball, and now the SMK...

----

Law enforcement is not restrained by the geneva convention. They use premium hollow points in their hand guns, their snipers are using SMK, and hornady TAP which is loaded with AMAX, and they use bonded bullets shooting through glass/barriers. They're allowed to use the most effective ammo thats available. Mil is restrained by hague/geneva- They choose the most accurate long range ammo they can use legally- IE- SMK.

Last edited by postal; 12-07-2012 at 9:27 PM..
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  #90  
Old 12-07-2012, 10:08 PM
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If i would've registered for the PRS i would've qualified for the final based on the PRS matches i shot this year.

I'm more bummed that i can't be considered a Professional Sniper though

This thread is redonkulous!!
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  #91  
Old 12-07-2012, 10:26 PM
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It's really amazing what certain folks think (believe).

Being in any life or death situation (either for yourself of those you are protecting) changes everything.

Unless the report is from someone in the field (do you know what in the field means?) I would not even consider the info.

More hits (you know what I mean) have been made by .308 than any other caliber. Think about just what you are reading and where it comes from before making any decision about weapon/optics being used.

I won't go into details, but most haven't had anyone trying to do them in (counter-sniper). Being the "Hunter" can easily be come the "Hunted".
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Toten Kopf View Post
It's really amazing what certain folks think (believe).

Being in any life or death situation (either for yourself of those you are protecting) changes everything.

Unless the report is from someone in the field (do you know what in the field means?) I would not even consider the info.

More hits (you know what I mean) have been made by .308 than any other caliber. Think about just what you are reading and where it comes from before making any decision about weapon/optics being used.

I won't go into details, but most haven't had anyone trying to do them in (counter-sniper). Being the "Hunter" can easily be come the "Hunted".
Soooo what you're saying is 308s are better for making hits in "the field" over a 6mm or 6.5mm?
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  #93  
Old 12-07-2012, 10:47 PM
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Soooo what you're saying is 308s are better for making hits in "the field" over a 6mm or 6.5mm?
Okay "LEG", let me say this, show me any "IN SERVICE" caliber that has more hits than .308.

Were not alking about having a "FUN" shoot. Were talking about what "REAL FOLKS" use!

"LEG" people, what do you do with them???????
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:55 PM
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Okay "LEG", let me say this, show me any "IN SERVICE" caliber that has more hits than .308.

Were not alking about having a "FUN" shoot. Were talking about what "REAL FOLKS" use!

"LEG" people, what do you do with them???????
Of course this has nothing to do with what's issued to them though right?

Understand this.. hit ratios would be higher in "field" conditions if people "IN SERVICE" were issued 6.5 or 6mm versions of the 308. It's a simple fact. Its the same reason i don't shoot any of my 308s anymore. If you make a bad call you're less likely to miss with a 6mm or 6.5mm. Think of it as margin of error. When points count in a match you take every advantage you can get. In high stress environments (match atmosphere) you end up making lots of mistakes. I imagine when people are shooting at you that you tend to make mistakes as well. I assume any "Sniper" that knows anything about ballistics would prefer to be issued a 260 or a 243 to take advantage as well if they could.
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  #95  
Old 12-07-2012, 11:08 PM
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Of course this has nothing to do with what's issued to them though right?

Understand this.. hit ratios would be higher in "field" conditions if people "IN SERVICE" were issued 6.5 or 6mm versions of the 308. It's a simple fact. Its the same reason i don't shoot any of my 308s anymore. If you make a bad call you're less likely to miss with a 6mm or 6.5mm. Think of it as margin of error. When points count in a match you take every advantage you can get.
You are a "LEG". What you think/say means nothing. You are speaking from a "civilian" viewpoint, not reality. Join me in my world and let's see how you handle yourself.

I guess I really shouldn't have said that, as you will never go there. Learn to use what you have to the best of your abilities, don't depend on the weapon/optics to do the job for you.

And, I never said that the .308 is the "BEST" caliber in existance. It's what we have and we are able to do the job with it that most can't.
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:17 AM
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You are a "LEG". What you think/say means nothing. You are speaking from a "civilian" viewpoint, not reality. Join me in my world and let's see how you handle yourself.

I guess I really shouldn't have said that, as you will never go there. Learn to use what you have to the best of your abilities, don't depend on the weapon/optics to do the job for you.

And, I never said that the .308 is the "BEST" caliber in existance. It's what we have and we are able to do the job with it that most can't.
You mad dood?

You completely neglect several factors, money being a huge one. Is the 5.56 the man stopper that people want? No. Would it cost a ton of money to retrofit existing weapons, purchase new weapons, and stockpile ammo? Hell yes. Does the current market have enough materials and personnel to create those weapons and ammo in sufficient quantities to satisfy military requirements? I highly doubt it.

Now turn to the .308 world. Would it be expensive to run tests, get bids, and do all the rigamarole to get a new weapons system up and running? Yeah. Can the military afford a new long-range weapons system outside of the current arsenal? Not really. Is the .308 "good enough" ballistically for military use with the modifications being done to rifles, barrels, and ammo? Yeah.

You mistake "best" or "real world" for what the military issues based on cost and production time concerns. Why do you think SF uses what they want? They are given the funds to buy the absolute best - whether that means better ammo(.50, 338, .308, 6.8, 5.56, whatever), weapons, gear, light weight, high tech, whatever.... They match the gear to the mission and have the funds to purchase the best.

Now, as to your attitude. I highly suggest checking it and having a realistic debate vs an emotional hissy fit. The true "operators" Ive met have all been mature, intelligent, and calculating. You come off as some kid who finished high school, went to basic, finished AIT with maybe a few marksmanship awards and was lucky enough to hit up airborne/air assault school while snowbirding or because you happened to get stationed there and your NCO voluntold you you were going.

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Old 12-08-2012, 6:07 AM
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I assume any "Sniper" that knows anything about ballistics would prefer to be issued a 260 or a 243 to take advantage as well if they could.
This is what confuses me though. I've put together spreadsheets comparing cartridges. I only used Sierra hunting bullets and Sierra load data, cause that's just what I'm using at the moment, trying to get a idea of performance for a hunting type of situation. Pick the highest bc gameking for 243 (100gr), 260 (140gr), and 308 (200gr). Load them to 100 fps less than book max and here's what you get.

243 20.7" drift at 500 yards, 105.9" at 1000. 260 19.0" at 500, 92.0" at 1000. 308 18.6" at 500, 86.2" at 1000. With those numbers, despite the drop disadvantage and considering the energy advantage I'd pick the 308.
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Old 12-08-2012, 7:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Toten Kopf View Post
You are a "LEG". What you think/say means nothing. You are speaking from a "civilian" viewpoint, not reality. Join me in my world and let's see how you handle yourself.

I guess I really shouldn't have said that, as you will never go there. Learn to use what you have to the best of your abilities, don't depend on the weapon/optics to do the job for you.

And, I never said that the .308 is the "BEST" caliber in existance. It's what we have and we are able to do the job with it that most can't.
Ok man, how about you come out to a national level match and shoot against me with the rest of the people from "your world" and see how we stack up. The military snipers we shoot with shoot their personal guns in matches and rarely are they ever .308's. I'm talking about the same guys winning the international sniper comp at benning. Are you retired mil? That would explain why you are behind the times because as of only three years ago the vast majority of shooters were shooting 308 still.
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Old 12-08-2012, 8:00 AM
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I am not special anything. I have spent a night or two outside the wire. It is my observation that truly gifted shooters, musicians, programmers etc. are just that truly gifted.
When you watch Willie Nelson he plays a guitar with a hole in it not to sound better but because he plays it so much and practices so much he wore a hole in it. Gifted shooters have common things in their skill including numbing hours of practice. My guess is if any of the top twenty shooters in this match were given a Marine 308 platform the matched rounds to that weapon and a little range time they could be as proficient in the field. Look up how many rounds the average teams member in the navy shoots per month just to stay proficient. When you shoot enought to pull in between heart beats you have done a little range time.

The best post I read in this thread is leaving emotion out of the discipline of shooting and writing.

My son is in Sniper School right now and I can't understand how much has changed since my time. We appear to still be looking for that perfect round in the sniper or precision shooting field. Some things can't be improved on the 50 cal round and its velocity has stayed a favorite. Funny the most deadly pieces of metal from an IED are the same weight and moving at the same velocity as the 50. Some day the perfect round ,powder and barrel twist will end this argument.

The recent record for five rounds at 1,000 yards should humble most of us as shooters.

Keep safe and enjoy what ever you shoot as often as you can.

I will never forget how much data you competition shooters are compiling as a service to our country because rest assured the military looks at and uses the data you collect.

Respectfully,

Bill
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Old 12-08-2012, 8:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Toten Kopf View Post
You are a "LEG". What you think/say means nothing. You are speaking from a "civilian" viewpoint, not reality. Join me in my world and let's see how you handle yourself.

I guess I really shouldn't have said that, as you will never go there. Learn to use what you have to the best of your abilities, don't depend on the weapon/optics to do the job for you.

And, I never said that the .308 is the "BEST" caliber in existance. It's what we have and we are able to do the job with it that most can't.

Well i'm done trying to argue with you. You're going to believe what you believe regardless of what any of us say so it's a waste of time to try to reason with you.

The only dog you've thrown into this fight that i can see is everyone preaching how great all these newer 6 & 6.5 calibers are blowing smoke up every ones arses simply because we haven't been in real combat. You imply that 308 can't be beaten simply because of its track record of military service.

All im saying is educate yourself on these newer calibers. A round that drifts 10" less at 1000 yards is the difference between a hit or a miss in "field conditions" if you misjudge your wind call.

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Originally Posted by Horton Fenty View Post
This is what confuses me though. I've put together spreadsheets comparing cartridges. I only used Sierra hunting bullets and Sierra load data, cause that's just what I'm using at the moment, trying to get a idea of performance for a hunting type of situation. Pick the highest bc gameking for 243 (100gr), 260 (140gr), and 308 (200gr). Load them to 100 fps less than book max and here's what you get.

243 20.7" drift at 500 yards, 105.9" at 1000. 260 19.0" at 500, 92.0" at 1000. 308 18.6" at 500, 86.2" at 1000. With those numbers, despite the drop disadvantage and considering the energy advantage I'd pick the 308.
You're using the wrong bullets. All things being equal (atmosphere) try your comparison again using a 243 shooting Berger 105gr Hybrids @ 3100fps, a 260 shooting 142 Matchkings @ 2900fps, and then a 308 shooting 175 Matchkings @ 2650fps.

Here's some quick numbers from my data at 1000 yards and 4000ft density altitude-
drop/wind/energy
243- 235"drop / 58"drift / ft-lbs 690 <- these are still going 1720fps at 1k
260- 263"drop / 58"drift / ft-lbs 870 <- these are going 1661fps
308- 363"drop / 91"drift / ft-lbs 600 <- these are going 1243fps

As you can see the 308 doesn't come out ahead in any department.
Its simple. You take a higher BC bullet and get it moving faster out of the muzzle and it will get there with less drop and less drift.
2 guns shooting the same velocity but ones shooting a higher BC bullet... the higher BC bullet wins. Shoot the same BC bullet and different velocity then the faster one will win. In this case the 6mm and 6.5s not only have higher BC bullets to start with but they also start off faster from the muzzle. It's a no brainer who's going to get there flatter and faster. The fact that they both retain so much more velocity over the distance is what gives them the edge in energy as well.
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  #101  
Old 12-08-2012, 8:39 AM
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For LEO, most engagements will be under 100 yds. No need for 6 or 6.5.
see this: http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/thread...niper-shot.57/

For Military, you have to go with what they give you. In that case, it's all about the man knowing his equipment. There is no debate that a 6 or 6.5 has better ballistics, but Toten is right, you must use what you have, and even then most engagements are not going to be a 1K.

The argument that tier 1 ops can use what they choose does not negate the ammo supply issue. Last I knew, hand loads were verboten in any capacity.
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Old 12-08-2012, 8:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Manolito View Post
I am not special anything. I have spent a night or two outside the wire. It is my observation that truly gifted shooters, musicians, programmers etc. are just that truly gifted.
When you watch Willie Nelson he plays a guitar with a hole in it not to sound better but because he plays it so much and practices so much he wore a hole in it. Gifted shooters have common things in their skill including numbing hours of practice. My guess is if any of the top twenty shooters in this match were given a Marine 308 platform the matched rounds to that weapon and a little range time they could be as proficient in the field. Look up how many rounds the average teams member in the navy shoots per month just to stay proficient. When you shoot enought to pull in between heart beats you have done a little range time.
The thing is these matches have no restrictions. Most set parameters of 6mm to 30cal bullets going no faster then 3100 or 3200fps.
Why on earth would you shoot a 308 when you could shoot a 260 with less drop and drift? Its all about margin of error. If a 260 drifts 60" from POA at 1000 yards and a 308 drifts closer to 100" at the same distance...if you misjudge the wind by only 1mph you have much less chances of getting a lucky hit with a 308.

Imagine this...
a 308 drifts 100" at 1000 yards
a 260 drifts 60" at 1000

Lets compare the 308 to a whiffle ball
and
the 260 to a football
You're in Qualcom stadium and there's a strong 15mph L-R breeze on the field. You're going to kick a field goal from 50yards with both so you decide to aim for the left goal post with the 260 (football). Then you figure you'll aim for the left corner of the end zone with the whiffle ball LOL!!
Which one has more chances of going through the up rights if you misjudge your aiming point?

Of course using the whiffle ball is a bit extreme next to a football in this example but you get the idea. It's all margin of error and it works in drift (if you misjudge the wind) or drop (if you misjudge the distance).


It's long been said that for these types of matches should be standardized. If everyone was shooting 308s with factory ammo you're right that the bad a** shooters would still be bad a**. Imagine how much more bad a** they are with ballistically superior cartridges though
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  #103  
Old 12-08-2012, 8:55 AM
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Originally Posted by bridgeport View Post
For LEO, most engagements will be under 100 yds. No need for 6 or 6.5.
see this: http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/thread...niper-shot.57/

For Military, you have to go with what they give you. In that case, it's all about the man knowing his equipment. There is no debate that a 6 or 6.5 has better ballistics, but Toten is right, you must use what you have, and even then most engagements are not going to be a 1K.

The argument that tier 1 ops can use what they choose does not negate the ammo supply issue. Last I knew, hand loads were verboten in any capacity.
Agreed with everything you have here.

The thing Toten got wrong is by trying to discredit every ones claims of 6 or 6.5s being better long range cartridges simply because the 308 has a better track record in real service...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toten Kopf View Post
It's really amazing what certain folks think (believe).


Unless the report is from someone in the field (do you know what in the field means?) I would not even consider the info.

More hits (you know what I mean) have been made by .308 than any other caliber. Think about just what you are reading and where it comes from before making any decision about weapon/optics being used.
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  #104  
Old 12-08-2012, 9:24 AM
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toten never claimed .308 is better, he claimed that .308 is " what they got" and that it has put more hits on the enemy, than 6 or 6.5.
Details matter.
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Old 12-08-2012, 9:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bridgeport View Post
toten never claimed .308 is better, he claimed that .308 is " what they got" and that it has put more hits on the enemy, than 6 or 6.5.
Details matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toten Kopf View Post
More hits (you know what I mean) have been made by .308 than any other caliber. Think about just what you are reading and where it comes from before making any decision about weapon/optics being used.
I took it as him saying that none of these other calibers matter next to the track record of the 308. He made a few comments implying that everything being talked about in this thread was just internet chatter and 308s were the real deal because they're used in battle.

Then when questioned if that's what he was saying he just got all upset and defensive.
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  #106  
Old 12-08-2012, 9:34 AM
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Originally Posted by DirtRacer151 View Post
You're using the wrong bullets. All things being equal (atmosphere) try your comparison again using a 243 shooting Berger 105gr Hybrids @ 3100fps, a 260 shooting 142 Matchkings @ 2900fps, and then a 308 shooting 175 Matchkings @ 2650fps.

Here's some quick numbers from my data at 1000 yards and 4000ft density altitude-
drop/wind/energy
243- 235"drop / 58"drift / ft-lbs 690 <- these are still going 1720fps at 1k
260- 263"drop / 58"drift / ft-lbs 870 <- these are going 1661fps
308- 363"drop / 91"drift / ft-lbs 600 <- these are going 1243fps

As you can see the 308 doesn't come out ahead in any department.
Its simple. You take a higher BC bullet and get it moving faster out of the muzzle and it will get there with less drop and less drift.
2 guns shooting the same velocity but ones shooting a higher BC bullet... the higher BC bullet wins. Shoot the same BC bullet and different velocity then the faster one will win. In this case the 6mm and 6.5s not only have higher BC bullets to start with but they also start off faster from the muzzle. It's a no brainer who's going to get there flatter and faster. The fact that they both retain so much more velocity over the distance is what gives them the edge in energy as well.
Yeah I get it. BC is king. The other huge difference is I'm using lower velocities. 3100 for a 243 Win is 200 fps over max with a 105/107gr bullet and a 22" barrel for example.
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Old 12-08-2012, 9:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Horton Fenty View Post
Yeah I get it. BC is king. The other huge difference is I'm using lower velocities. 3100 for a 243 Win is 200 fps over max with a 105/107gr bullet and a 22" barrel for example.
Book velocities are very conservative. Its best to work up a load till you get pressure signs then back down.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:09 AM
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Toten says, " (you know what I mean)."
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Last edited by bridgeport; 12-15-2012 at 5:53 AM..
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Old 12-08-2012, 1:32 PM
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Horton, most of these guys are pushing way past book loads. They also use high quality aftermarket barrels- most are 24"...Some longer, some shorter... but the aftermarket barrel with a tight chamber, short throat gives them more velocity than a standard barrel as well.

They run a ladder test to hit signs of overpressure, then back it down and run a ladder again checking accuracy. They're looking for the best accuracy with a high velocity. They'll drop the vel to keep the accuracy though.

Those 243/6/6.5 burn out barrels and throats so quickly, they lose velocity from throat erosion and need to up the charge a little more over time until the barrel is toast in 2-2.5k rounds.

Also, the most common 308 SMK now, is the 175grain. It used to be the 168 for a long time . Some people are moving to the 155 grain if it shoots well for them, and they get about 2850+ FPS. The 155 and 175 have nearly same BC, so if you can push that 155 fast enough, it's an advantage over 175. The 168 has a lower BC which is why it's really not used much anymore, but some people are slow to change as well. The 200 grain and higher is usually for 30-06. A long heavy pointy bullet like that will probably not fit magazine length. Thats an issue some people have with 155 gr scenar- they're so pointy..

The other common ones are the 155 grain lapua scenar, -168,178 Amax and I'm not sure what weight people like in the berger vld.

Last edited by postal; 12-08-2012 at 1:40 PM..
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Old 12-08-2012, 4:37 PM
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Originally Posted by postal View Post
Horton, most of these guys are pushing way past book loads. They also use high quality aftermarket barrels- most are 24"...Some longer, some shorter... but the aftermarket barrel with a tight chamber, short throat gives them more velocity than a standard barrel as well.

They run a ladder test to hit signs of overpressure, then back it down and run a ladder again checking accuracy. They're looking for the best accuracy with a high velocity. They'll drop the vel to keep the accuracy though.

Those 243/6/6.5 burn out barrels and throats so quickly, they lose velocity from throat erosion and need to up the charge a little more over time until the barrel is toast in 2-2.5k rounds.

Also, the most common 308 SMK now, is the 175grain. It used to be the 168 for a long time . Some people are moving to the 155 grain if it shoots well for them, and they get about 2850+ FPS. The 155 and 175 have nearly same BC, so if you can push that 155 fast enough, it's an advantage over 175. The 168 has a lower BC which is why it's really not used much anymore, but some people are slow to change as well. The 200 grain and higher is usually for 30-06. A long heavy pointy bullet like that will probably not fit magazine length. Thats an issue some people have with 155 gr scenar- they're so pointy..

The other common ones are the 155 grain lapua scenar, -168,178 Amax and I'm not sure what weight people like in the berger vld.
Right. So really you can have three similar thread titles on the same thing. What professional competitors use, what professional snipers use, and what normal hunters use.
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Old 12-08-2012, 6:08 PM
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Old 12-08-2012, 6:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtRacer151 View Post
I took it as him saying that none of these other calibers matter next to the track record of the 308. He made a few comments implying that everything being talked about in this thread was just internet chatter and 308s were the real deal because they're used in battle.

Then when questioned if that's what he was saying he just got all upset and defensive.
First, you got it wrong, you didn't read what I said.

Second, bridgeport got it right, he read what I said.

And for being upset and defensive, sorry no, wrong again.

bridgeport...your going to have to read between the lines on this. It would just take to long to type in the "history" and I don't relish it anyway. Besides, I'm enjoying an adult berverage now, and my focus is on other things.
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Old 12-08-2012, 6:19 PM
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Originally Posted by StraightShooter View Post
Ok man, how about you come out to a national level match and shoot against me with the rest of the people from "your world" and see how we stack up. The military snipers we shoot with shoot their personal guns in matches and rarely are they ever .308's. I'm talking about the same guys winning the international sniper comp at benning. Are you retired mil? That would explain why you are behind the times because as of only three years ago the vast majority of shooters were shooting 308 still.
Okay, do I have to post my "HIGH MASTER" card, G-20/P100. Maybe a picture of my...Oh just forget it.

Just remember competition is just that, nothing more or less. If you miss a shot, well what happens? There's always tomorrow, right. Yeah, right.
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Old 12-08-2012, 6:38 PM
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Right. So really you can have three similar thread titles on the same thing. What professional competitors use, what professional snipers use, and what normal hunters use.
Yeah. Different rules for each one.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:15 PM
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Right. So really you can have three similar thread titles on the same thing. What professional competitors use, what professional snipers use, and what normal hunters use.
Need a fourth thread: an additional one about normal people hunting elephants at 2000 yards.

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Old 12-08-2012, 11:13 PM
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A couple thoughts....

1. Although the OPs attachment is very interesting and reflects what top marksmen in their discipline are doing (which anyone should gain from) the sniping reference is obviously missplaced; "sniper" is an intelligence scout maneuvering in a specific operational area of the battlefield where precision marksmanship ("target interdiction") is one of the few organic fires that a FEBA commander can directly control, vice request.

Matches (of any type) are to sniping as hiking is to a ruck/hump or TAB (tactical approach to the battlefield)... or for that matter skydiving to Military Freefall, tactical mountain operations to sport climbing (climb 5.8s in heavy boots with existence load!) sport diving to combat swimming etc. etc., the mechanics are similar but the experience is vastly different. But... the civilian comps are fun, tighten the skill sets, and are a great complement- it just has to be kept in context that you are in an environment (civilian open sport competition) that, although highly competitive, has different (not better/worse) constraints/restraints than military operations do.

2. A battlefield round is not based just on external/terminal effectiveness- although that is obviously important- availability, ease of resupply, and all around applicability matter as well. We often delinked 7.62 and .50 ball for use in-extremis because it was so available. It was not RAUFOSS or M118 but we had the data for standard ball, AP, API and could make it work if needed. Mods to a standard issue round is also much easier in the manufacturing, issuing and logistic tail- especially if there is a reasonable chance somebody else out there on the playing field has what you use. We used .45 ACP religously and still carried instead a 9mm secondary at times when outside our box because finding 9 is much easier in many parts of the world than the big hardball.

Issue is a match ball round with enough of the lot shot to get good data for the shooter and gun to ensure consistent DOPE. Terminal ballistics ("hunting bullets") is not as much a consideration as is CONSISTENT accuracy with what will be available. That is not to say that a more effective externally and terminally ballistic round is not discussed, looked for, or crops up in forums like this; but in the end it is just not necessary (IMHO).

It is easy to get worked up though when you read what "pro snipers" use and in the same breath "no .308 anywhere" when it has been there for you and I think that is where some of the hostility is coming from.

This is like the much to do about nothing with 5.56 for an infantry rifle; when you are part of a team of other riflemen, with likely some heavy-auto 5.56 weapons, grenades, and HE/frag throwers in the group, GPMGs in direct support, and HMGs and indirect fires in general support, 5.56 is more than adequate for its intended use.

That being said, for a privately owned weapon that has none of the above back-up and is needed to protect, feed etc. in a variety of circumstances, it is up to the individual if a "general issue" cartridge is appropriate.

One last note... in my experience not even SOCOM units get to pick whatever they want and maybe they can write a "blank check" at the HQ level but at the team/unit level that would be inaccurate. A couple units have some leeway in requests etc., but it is not what you would think. We tried often, sometimes we we won, sometimes not; unfortunately the verbiage in the request made more difference than the realistic and validated need.

The closest I have worked with to what most imagine in the "getting to shoot what you want" is the USSS Countersnipers and some larger jurisdiction full-time LE tactical teams, and even then it is not what you would think.

(drafted well past beer-thirty, forgive spelling and grammatical errors please)
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  #117  
Old 12-09-2012, 5:07 AM
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I dont see Ron Horiuchi's name on the list?
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  #118  
Old 12-09-2012, 10:31 AM
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Here is what I've learned:

1. I want a Surgeon Rifle in either .260 Remington or 6.5 Creedmore.
2. I want a Bushnell GDMR to put on top of it.
3. I should listen to rksimple in matters of long range shooting.
4. Approximately 95% of the opinions here are completely uninformed.

These guys aren't military snipers because there is no fieldcraft evolution. A lot of great shooters wash out of sniper school because they can't hide. They aren't scout-snipers because there is no scouting aspect. They are absolutely every bit the part of a military designated marksman or police marksman, who are often called "snipers" in error.

Damn, I really want a Surgeon rifle. Those are nice.
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eh why bring logic into this, that makes too much sense... besides when you have bested a fool, you have accomplished nothing and he is a fool.
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  #119  
Old 12-09-2012, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scobun View Post
Here is what I've learned:

1. I want a Surgeon Rifle in either .260 Remington or 6.5 Creedmore.
2. I want a Bushnell GDMR to put on top of it.
3. I should listen to rksimple in matters of long range shooting.
4. Approximately 95% of the opinions here are completely uninformed.

These guys aren't military snipers because there is no fieldcraft evolution. A lot of great shooters wash out of sniper school because they can't hide. They aren't scout-snipers because there is no scouting aspect. They are absolutely every bit the part of a military designated marksman or police marksman, who are often called "snipers" in error.

Damn, I really want a Surgeon rifle. Those are nice.
You pretty much have it nailed....except that listen to rksimple part. That guys cost me more money on crappy scopes then i care to count. At least i get benefits from his ol lady as pay back
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  #120  
Old 12-09-2012, 5:47 PM
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You pretty much have it nailed....except that listen to rksimple part.
LOL James!

And how many times have YOU won the TBRC? Always a bridesmaid, never a bride
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