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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 11-28-2012, 2:18 PM
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Default Featureless rifle without stock?

I'd like to get opinions on the legality of building a featureless rifle without a stock. I am wondering if it would be legal to build a rifle similar to the Type I or II configuration (https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/pa...rations-2.html), but without the stock attached to the back of the Hammerhead grip. The overall length would be 31" and would use a rifle lower. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.
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  #2  
Old 11-28-2012, 2:29 PM
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Outside of legalities, why would do it functionality wise?
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Old 11-28-2012, 2:31 PM
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Huh? If there isn't a stock, how are you "designing it to be fired from the shoulder"? If you're not, it won't fall under the definition of a "rifle". It will just be a long gun.
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Old 11-28-2012, 2:31 PM
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Franklin even sells an AR with a spade grip.
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Old 11-28-2012, 2:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSet View Post
Outside of legalities, why would do it functionality wise?
My understanding is featureless allows you to build a rifle without a bullet button or 10 round limit.

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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Huh? If there isn't a stock, how are you "designing it to be fired from the shoulder"? If you're not, it won't fall under the definition of a "rifle". It will just be a long gun.
Good point, I haven't read much info on long gun regulations and do not know the laws regulating them. This is something I will research.
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  #6  
Old 11-28-2012, 3:22 PM
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What is your end game? Featureless rifles are allowed to have fixed stocks, that includes pinned collapsible stocks.

If you really don't want one, as long as you comply with all other laws regarding your firearm classification, I don't see why not. I don't see an advantage either tho.

I have a title1 long arm - are pistol, and I would kill for a sbr stamp to put a stock on it!
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Old 11-28-2012, 3:23 PM
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Correct, featureless allows that but I can't figure out why you'd want a rifle without a buttstock?
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Old 11-28-2012, 3:35 PM
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Originally Posted by MrPlink View Post
What is your end game? Featureless rifles are allowed to have fixed stocks, that includes pinned collapsible stocks.

If you really don't want one, as long as you comply with all other laws regarding your firearm classification, I don't see why not. I don't see an advantage either tho.

I have a title1 long arm - are pistol, and I would kill for a sbr stamp to put a stock on it!
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Correct, featureless allows that but I can't figure out why you'd want a rifle without a buttstock?
Basically looking for something different to try out. I would hate to do this and show up at a range only to get in trouble for something. It's almost like a really long featureless pistol. Is it a good idea? I won't know until I try it.
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  #9  
Old 11-28-2012, 3:44 PM
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To be different? Good luck shooting that thing without a stock off hand. Unless you intend on shouldering the buffer tube....which in that case....put a stock on it. Wut-da-hell?

Last edited by L4D; 11-28-2012 at 6:09 PM..
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Old 11-28-2012, 4:00 PM
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  #11  
Old 11-28-2012, 5:46 PM
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I understand the OP's question, however I have to agree that you might as well just pin a stock or get a short fixed one.
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  #12  
Old 11-28-2012, 6:03 PM
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What you're describing sounds like it could be described under the pistol classification, making it an AW...

Double check to make sure.
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Old 11-28-2012, 7:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joelberg View Post
What you're describing sounds like it could be described under the pistol classification, making it an AW...

Double check to make sure.
This is partly the concern, though based on the Franklin Armory XO-26 (http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS_XO-26.html) I don't think it would be, particularly as it will start as a rifle lower. The XO-26 is a completely different product, but the logic seems to hold.
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  #14  
Old 11-28-2012, 7:16 PM
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BTW, you can always build a semi auto, centerfire, long gun, which is not a "rifle" under CA law (no stock), and put ALL THE EVIL FEATURES you want on it without a mag lock. You can even use +10 round mags with it.
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  #15  
Old 11-28-2012, 7:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
BTW, you can always build a semi auto, centerfire, long gun, which is not a "rifle" under CA law (no stock), and put ALL THE EVIL FEATURES you want on it without a mag lock. You can even use +10 round mags with it.
^^^ This!
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  #16  
Old 11-28-2012, 8:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
BTW, you can always build a semi auto, centerfire, long gun, which is not a "rifle" under CA law (no stock), and put ALL THE EVIL FEATURES you want on it without a mag lock. You can even use +10 round mags with it.
Interesting, so basically you can build almost anything based off an AR rifle lower and as long as you remove the stock you don't need a bullet button and can run normal mags? I tried finding docs describing the long gun laws but couldn't find anything concrete.
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  #17  
Old 11-28-2012, 8:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pswire View Post
Interesting, so basically you can build almost anything based off an AR rifle lower and as long as you remove the stock you don't need a bullet button and can run normal mags? I tried finding docs describing the long gun laws but couldn't find anything concrete.
Same here, can you cite were you got your info from? This thread peaked my interest as I was going to use a hammerhead grip kit from Exile Machine but if I don't have to that would be awesome.
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  #18  
Old 11-28-2012, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
BTW, you can always build a semi auto, centerfire, long gun, which is not a "rifle" under CA law (no stock), and put ALL THE EVIL FEATURES you want on it without a mag lock. You can even use +10 round mags with it.
I am pretty sure that the CGF has advised against this.


It is within in the law, but only by a hair, a hair that would be a real chore to convince a hostile audience of.
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  #19  
Old 11-28-2012, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
BTW, you can always build a semi auto, centerfire, long gun, which is not a "rifle" under CA law (no stock), and put ALL THE EVIL FEATURES you want on it without a mag lock. You can even use +10 round mags with it.



please explain this ^^^? so if i built a ar pistol on a receiver that was drosed as a long-gun it would be legal? no BB,10 + mags, pistol grip as long as i don't call it a pistol? i don't think i understand what you are saying

Last edited by 0nTarg3t; 11-28-2012 at 10:37 PM..
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  #20  
Old 11-28-2012, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0nTarg3t View Post
please explain this ^^^? so if i built a ar pistol on a receiver that was drosed as a long-gun it would be legal? no BB,10 + mags, pistol grip as long as i don't call it a pistol? i don't think i understand what you are saying
That would be an SBR, or an AW pistol depending on who decided to charge you first.

The gist is that the firearm would need to be a long gun that does not run afoul of any state or federal law.

An AR without a buttstock(i.e. not designed to be fired from the shoulder) that has a barrel at least 16" long(i.e. not a pistol or SBR) and an overall length at least 26" (not an SBR) is just a long gun, not a rifle and thus not covered by CA AW law and not running afoul of any Fed laws.

Again, this has been discussed before (in the CSW thread IIRC) and was deemed a bad idea.
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  #21  
Old 11-29-2012, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrison_Bergeron View Post
That would be an SBR, or an AW pistol depending on who decided to charge you first.

The gist is that the firearm would need to be a long gun that does not run afoul of any state or federal law.

An AR without a buttstock(i.e. not designed to be fired from the shoulder) that has a barrel at least 16" long(i.e. not a pistol or SBR) and an overall length at least 26" (not an SBR) is just a long gun, not a rifle and thus not covered by CA AW law and not running afoul of any Fed laws.

Again, this has been discussed before (in the CSW thread IIRC) and was deemed a bad idea.

ok thanks for the clarification ;-)
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  #22  
Old 11-29-2012, 2:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrison_Bergeron View Post
I am pretty sure that the CGF has advised against this.


It is within in the law, but only by a hair, a hair that would be a real chore to convince a hostile audience of.
This ^^^^

I believe the last thread on this ended with probably legal, but don't expect CGF to come to the rescue, and only try it if you have $50,000 cash on hand for your legal defense and are willing to risk felony, banned from guns for life in all 50 states, charges for it.
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Old 11-29-2012, 5:57 AM
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Very interesting, based on this and getting back to the original question, would a rifle that would otherwise qualify as featureless with no evil features be legal without a stock in the configuration described? Seems like yes from what I'm reading, I'm still not entirely sure though.
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Old 11-29-2012, 7:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pswire View Post
Very interesting, based on this and getting back to the original question, would a rifle that would otherwise qualify as featureless with no evil features be legal without a stock in the configuration described? Seems like yes from what I'm reading, I'm still not entirely sure though.
Again, if it does not now and has never had a stock on it, it is not a "rifle" under the law. With a rifle length upper and assuming that minimum length is met, it would just be a long gun just like all the PG only 12gs for sale which have never had stocks on them. Anyway, while what you are decsribing sounds legal to me, I will also advise you to never blindly take advise from anyone on the internet, at a gun shop or working as your average LEO.
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Old 11-29-2012, 8:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pswire View Post
Very interesting, based on this and getting back to the original question, would a rifle that would otherwise qualify as featureless with no evil features be legal without a stock in the configuration described? Seems like yes from what I'm reading, I'm still not entirely sure though.
Do you understand that what you want would be legal whether it has a bare buffer tube or a fixed stock? The stock only counts for anything if it is adjustable.
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Old 11-29-2012, 9:27 AM
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Do you understand that what you want would be legal whether it has a bare buffer tube or a fixed stock? The stock only counts for anything if it is adjustable.
Actually I wasn't sure, I read everything I could find including the actual penal code and quite frankly know as much now as I did before reading those docs. I am trying to understand the laws better to be an informed owner so I don't do something illegal.

Building a rifle without a stock may not make sense to anyone but me, but a number of folks have shot one of my featureless rifles and complained about the length of the fixed stock, it works well for me but not necessarily anyone else. I'm interested is testing without a stock to see how well it would work.

Last edited by pswire; 11-29-2012 at 9:30 AM..
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  #27  
Old 11-29-2012, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pswire View Post
Actually I wasn't sure, I read everything I could find including the actual penal code and quite frankly know as much now as I did before reading those docs. I am trying to understand the laws better to be an informed owner so I don't do something illegal.

Building a rifle without a stock may not make sense to anyone but me, but a number of folks have shot one of my featureless rifles and complained about the length of the fixed stock, it works well for me but not necessarily anyone else. I'm interested is testing without a stock to see how well it would work.

Even without a stock. The fixed length issue will still exist....and you added another negative trying to shoulder a tube.

take a step back and think about it.
Your friends complained about the length of stock.
so you take the stock off. whats underneath?...a buffer tube thats pretty much the same length as the stock.

Last edited by L4D; 11-29-2012 at 11:21 AM..
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by L4D View Post
Even without a stock. The fixed length issue will still exist....and you added another negative trying to shoulder a tube.

take a step back and think about it.
Your friends complained about the length of stock.
so you take the stock off. whats underneath?...a buffer tube thats pretty much the same length as the stock.
Yes and no. The tube will be the same length but there will be no stock. If you look at the Type I and II photos (https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/pa...rations-2.html) you'll see the tube length and stock length aren't related, meaning it could be more comfortable for some folks.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pswire View Post
Yes and no. The tube will be the same length but there will be no stock. If you look at the Type I and II photos (https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/pa...rations-2.html) you'll see the tube length and stock length aren't related, meaning it could be more comfortable for some folks.
oh. I get you. a stock attached to the hammerhead grip.

well then you might as well put that ACE buttstock seen in the type II config and place it in its normal spot and have a stock, right?. no? why not?
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Old 11-29-2012, 1:09 PM
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oh. I get you. a stock attached to the hammerhead grip.

well then you might as well put that ACE buttstock seen in the type II config and place it in its normal spot and have a stock, right?. no? why not?
What works for me doesn't work well for others who've used my current rifle. I tried that config and didn't like it, but with just a tube it seems ok. Others may not like it with just a tube, installing a stock takes just a few minutes. I was concerned about running without a stock, but that seems ok, which means some range time for testing.
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Old 11-29-2012, 1:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pswire View Post
What works for me doesn't work well for others who've used my current rifle. I tried that config and didn't like it, but with just a tube it seems ok. Others may not like it with just a tube, installing a stock takes just a few minutes. I was concerned about running without a stock, but that seems ok, which means some range time for testing.
good luck. If you ever shouldered an AR pistol it should suck less with the longer barrel
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Old 11-29-2012, 1:22 PM
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Can you post a pic of you shouldering this stockless rifle and shooting it? I can't wrap my mind around the biomechanic advantage of it so maybe a visual will help.
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Old 11-29-2012, 1:37 PM
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I don't think that it would be an issue, but since the goal is to make it shorter, keep in mind that you still need to be over 30" long.
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Old 11-29-2012, 1:57 PM
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I can't imagine how hideously ugly a hammerhead featureless build would be and if shot properly with the pistol buffer rested against your cheek your wrist could end up in ergonomic hell.

IMHO it would be lawful but I don't have enough money to go to court and argue with a prosecutor over it
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Old 11-29-2012, 6:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonshine View Post
IMHO it would be lawful but I don't have enough money to go to court and argue with a prosecutor over it
Same here
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Old 11-29-2012, 7:09 PM
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Maybe I'm off base but if it was proved 100% lawful to do a pistol grip with a pistol buffer, detachable mag, and full evil features this would be the configuration I would run a course with. To keep the weight down I'd use a 10.5 inch barrel with a permenantly welded surpressor basically creating a stock less XM177 clone...
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Old 11-29-2012, 7:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonshine View Post
I can't imagine how hideously ugly a hammerhead featureless build would be and if shot properly with the pistol buffer rested against your cheek your wrist could end up in ergonomic hell.

IMHO it would be lawful but I don't have enough money to go to court and argue with a prosecutor over it
Why do you think you'd end up in court at all? What he wants is almost as "super legal" as a bullet button and ten rounder on a featureless rifle.
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  #38  
Old 11-29-2012, 7:33 PM
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If its featureless, then it doesn't have a grip. If it also doesn't have a stock, then how will you hold the gun?
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Old 11-29-2012, 7:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagedude88 View Post
If its featureless, then it doesn't have a grip. If it also doesn't have a stock, then how will you hold the gun?
Hammerhead grip....not a pistol grip
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:53 PM
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Harrison I'm talking about full features build with grip and detachable mag with a 16 inch barrel and pistol buffer. Long arm and therefore not a rifle or pistol so it should be lawful. At least I think it would be but I wouldn't place a bet in vegas on it given how some blue county DAs are.
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