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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #41  
Old 12-03-2012, 8:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Cary1911 View Post
seems like you guys need a picture of this grip in a users hands. i have held this stock, and it felt great. very natural and comfy. i am however watching this debate as i dont want to be a guinea pig for CA featureless legality.
I held it too at the last Cow Palace gun show, just like you, not willing to be the test case.
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  #42  
Old 12-04-2012, 3:27 PM
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I’ll respond to everyone’s concerns with a statement about why Thordsen Customs stands by the FRS-15 Featureless Rifle Stock.

We’ve spent over a year studying case law, penal code, geometry of firearms, and natural form to develop this design. We’ve gone through dozens of design concepts searching for the perfect balance between comfort and conformance. You may recall several months ago, we had two survey posts asking specific information about hand dimensions and stock lengths. We received hundreds of responses to those posts and the data was used to develop the length, arcs, and angles of the design.

We’ve conducted several focus groups, surveyed hundreds of people at guns shows, several of whom were law enforcement (hell, some of them could have been undercover DOJ for all I know), and customers that visit our shop. The overwhelming majority of whom liked the fit and comfort and when asked what they would classify it as, pistol grip or rifle stock? The answer was overwhelmingly, “rifle stock”. Of course, none of this means squat to a prosecutor, but it has helped to guide the final design.

We submitted our design to DOJ for approval and received the standard form letter of non opinion (see attached). We followed the directive given to us to seek legal counsel. We consulted three firearms defense attorneys to satisfy DOJs directive (two of which were former district attorneys in California counties and had tried firearms cases). We submitted a draft to the ATF Technology Branch for an opinion and their reply was that they have no jurisdiction over California law (see attached). The fourth and final attorney we consulted was a specialist in 2A law. We finally decided that it was time to make it public. All attorneys agreed that the FRS-15 Featureless Rifle Stock when assembled with other non featured parts, DOES NOT qualify as an assault weapon under Penal Code 30515 (a) and is defensible in court.

Sadly, in cases like Haynee vs Pleasanton or People vs. Haack and Haack, someone may still get arrested. No one can control whether a peace officer understands the subtleties of the law. I personally have been transporting, demonstrating, and shooting an FRS-15 Featureless Rifle stock for nearly a year now. I used one at my last tactical training class. One of the students was even a CHP officer. I’ve had it displayed openly on our table at the last few gun shows. A couple of State Police officers, at the Cal Expo show a couple of weeks ago, thought it was very cool and didn’t see a problem with it (I suppose this was confirmed because they didn’t arrest me) as did a Solano County Sheriff’s Deputy at the Vallejo show this past weekend.

It’s an entirely different world from when the cases noted above were tried. Police and corrections officers are far better educated now especially since they have to follow many of the same rules that we do with their personal firearms and are just as vulnerable to prosecution as we are.

I thank Gene Hoffman for his bump!! There’s no way to describe the incredible boost of confidence we received from those few words.

With all of this said. If our product is still too close to the edge for comfort for some people we totally respect that. It took several months for the UBBT to be accepted by the market and now after nearly four years, it is one of the best known enhancements for the AR enthusiast.






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  #43  
Old 12-04-2012, 6:00 PM
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You gotta love how our state has laws and people that are paid to enforce the laws but are not allowed to tell the very people that are trying to follow the law if they are following it or not.
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  #44  
Old 12-04-2012, 6:37 PM
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maybe the question to the feds should have been if it is in importable condition as its intent is to be featureless that is one way to get a positive response
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  #45  
Old 12-04-2012, 7:02 PM
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"The Bureau is unable to provide legal advice or expert opinions to members of the public"

Well then the public is unable to pay your salary
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  #46  
Old 12-04-2012, 8:11 PM
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For those interested in this stock, Thordo was kind enough to provide me with one for evaluation. Full picture and review thread to follow as soon as I can make the conversion (need to dig up an extra comp I have buried somewhere for the test rifle!) and get out to the range I will make a new thread (and link it here if I can remember).
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  #47  
Old 12-05-2012, 11:56 AM
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  #48  
Old 12-05-2012, 12:20 PM
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Its hilarious that they wont say if something is legal or not.
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  #49  
Old 12-05-2012, 12:48 PM
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It is not hilarious that they won't but rather a strategy.
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  #50  
Old 12-05-2012, 7:08 PM
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Thordo, it looks like you've done the best you can to get a ruling on it. Personally, I still think someone will get arrested over it (whether or not it's actually compliant).

I wonder, how much would a definitive ruling be worth to you as a manufacturer? Suggestion: Put a tag on the box that guarantees $XX,000.00 to the defense fund of someone charged with AW possession if your stock is on the offlist AR without other features.

Something like that could go a long way to putting people's minds at ease and might get you your definitive ruling. You might never have to pay out and it demonstrates you are confident enough in the product to put not only your name but your money on the line.

Not a gauntlet being tossed...just a thought to ponder.
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  #51  
Old 12-06-2012, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stix213 View Post
hmmm, thumb looks a tad low to me.
After looking at it a bit closer, the above evaluation is a serious and valid concern. Also even if you define it as a rifle stock, I do remember reading where the grip on a traditional hunting rifle stock is referred to as a pistol grip.

Raise the webbing of the hand above the infamous line and this could be a winner.
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  #52  
Old 12-06-2012, 12:59 AM
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Well since we are disecting the definition of a pistol grip in this thread, what about the kriss carbine?

It's "grip" does not protrude conspicuously below the action. It is behind the action similar to a 1919a6 configuration.... Just for thoughts....
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  #53  
Old 12-06-2012, 2:04 AM
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Originally Posted by drclark View Post
Well since we are disecting the definition of a pistol grip in this thread, what about the kriss carbine?

It's "grip" does not protrude conspicuously below the action. It is behind the action similar to a 1919a6 configuration.... Just for thoughts....


you are aware, aren't you, that "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" is a phrase that has a relatively clear definition in california law?

Quote:
11 CCR 5469
The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1:
...
(d) "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.
a kriss sure as hell has one of THOSE.
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  #54  
Old 12-06-2012, 7:01 AM
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Nice to see someone is giving it the good'ol collage try! As far as the look... lol, but I think the no longer available U-15 stock, Hammerhead or Monster Man Grip set up are not the best looking either. I plan on a future featureless built and like the fact that I not have 1 more option.
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  #55  
Old 12-06-2012, 8:08 AM
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Hi Thordo,

I would love to see your stock become accepted despite my initial legal risk trepidation. I came across this some time back but your stock got me to thinking I had seen a similar but hybrid concept prior. This one has to use the Para type upper.



http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...tock-patented/

It too appears to have the space just below the action of the weapon. I still want too look up the original patent.

This would be perceived as a stock even more clearly since lack of a buffer tube; at least to non gun people.

Not sure if this helps at all, that is up to paid legal minds, but if someone was charged there is another example made for the same firearm that is a stock.

PS thank you for your previous post. While I threw out that video idea, if you are plainly displaying them at gun shows on featureless builds you are already doing almost the same thing.

Last edited by AlexDD; 12-06-2012 at 8:10 AM..
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  #56  
Old 12-06-2012, 8:32 AM
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Originally Posted by strongpoint View Post


you are aware, aren't you, that "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" is a phrase that has a relatively clear definition in california law?



a kriss sure as hell has one of THOSE.
yes I am aware...and we wouldn't be having this discussion in this thread about the new stock if the law was clear.... however what is the definition of "action of the weapon"? Is it defined clearly in the law?

This definition from a CA approved hunter's safety course is

Quote:
The action of a firearm is made up of parts that load, unload, fire, and eject the shotshell or cartridge. Actions are either single-shot or repeating styles. Single-shot firearms must be reloaded each time the firearm is fired. Repeating firearms have extra cartridges or shotshells ready in a magazine, cylinder, or extra barrel.
from: http://my.hunter-ed.com/California/s...1005_700040828

So what parts actually make up the action? Bolt, bolt carrier, recoil buffer and spring??? Heck, by the definition above the magazine itself could be considered part of the action....

So with a conventional AR type rifle the action travels in a linear fashion from front to back and all parts of the "action of the weapon" are clearly above the pistol grip...

However, the Kriss has a unique action design that travels in a vertical fashion parallel to the magazine as seen in the picture below.



The large yellow bolt carrier moves up and down infront of the integrated grip and the bottom of the grip is actually ABOVE the lowest point of the bolt carrier travel. The bottom of the grip is ABOVE the bottom of the recoil spring.

Hence I would claim that "pistol grip" as defined by CA law does not apply to the Kriss design lacking any clarifying definition of "action of the firearm" beyond what the CA hunter safety course teaches. Again, the Kriss pistol grip is more in line with the pistol style grip on the back of a 1919a6 as discussed in this thread

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=112361

Admittedly it is a huge grey area and I am personally not willing to be a test case... but I think from a technical and legal definition, the Kriss pistol grip DOES NOT protrude conspicuously below the action of the weapon.

Sorry for the thread jack....

Last edited by drclark; 12-06-2012 at 9:45 AM..
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  #57  
Old 12-06-2012, 9:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate View Post
Thordo, it looks like you've done the best you can to get a ruling on it. Personally, I still think someone will get arrested over it (whether or not it's actually compliant).

I wonder, how much would a definitive ruling be worth to you as a manufacturer? Suggestion: Put a tag on the box that guarantees $XX,000.00 to the defense fund of someone charged with AW possession if your stock is on the offlist AR without other features.

Something like that could go a long way to putting people's minds at ease and might get you your definitive ruling. You might never have to pay out and it demonstrates you are confident enough in the product to put not only your name but your money on the line.

Not a gauntlet being tossed...just a thought to ponder.
Hi Fate,
If you take into consideration the incredible amount of time and money I've invested (and continue to invest) in our stock, one could say that we are doing exactly what you're suggesting. Like I said in my OP, if I didn't have 100% faith in it, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Gene has pledged that CGF would defend anyone arrested. I can't thank them enough for that piece of mind but believe me, my nerves are still racked, as they were when we introduced the UBBT. I'm still waiting for DOJ to bash down the door.

We are glad to donate $10 from each purchase to the CGF cause.

Thordo
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  #58  
Old 12-06-2012, 9:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IPSICK View Post
After looking at it a bit closer, the above evaluation is a serious and valid concern. Also even if you define it as a rifle stock, I do remember reading where the grip on a traditional hunting rifle stock is referred to as a pistol grip.

Raise the webbing of the hand above the infamous line and this could be a winner.
We studied that. There are some rifle manufacturers that describe their solid rifle stocks as "semi pistol grip". We were very careful to make sure that the angles and arc radius kept it outside the realm of what those manufacturers describe.

The back strap was above the imaginary line and the overall angle of the handhold was much shallower in early prototypes but in testing, the extra stretch and the increased angle of the wrist were VERY uncomfortable and a prolonged grasp could not be maintained without fatigue to the wrist.

Thordo
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Old 12-06-2012, 9:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexDD View Post
Hi Thordo,

I would love to see your stock become accepted despite my initial legal risk trepidation. I came across this some time back but your stock got me to thinking I had seen a similar but hybrid concept prior. This one has to use the Para type upper.



http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...tock-patented/

It too appears to have the space just below the action of the weapon. I still want too look up the original patent.

This would be perceived as a stock even more clearly since lack of a buffer tube; at least to non gun people.

Not sure if this helps at all, that is up to paid legal minds, but if someone was charged there is another example made for the same firearm that is a stock.

PS thank you for your previous post. While I threw out that video idea, if you are plainly displaying them at gun shows on featureless builds you are already doing almost the same thing.
We studied this concept also.

We needed to research everything even remotely related to this concept to make sure we weren't infringing on anyones patents. Shape, scope, overall appearance, material, construction, etc. we studied against this design as well as U-15.

When I said we've done our due diligence, I wasn't kidding. When you consider the amount of dollars involved with this project, you can understand why!!

Thordo
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  #60  
Old 12-06-2012, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drclark View Post
...This definition from a CA approved hunter's safety course is


from: http://my.hunter-ed.com/California/s...1005_700040828

So what parts actually make up the action? Bolt, bolt carrier, recoil buffer and spring??? Heck, by the definition above the magazine itself could be considered part of the action....

...
The large yellow bolt carrier moves up and down infront of the integrated grip and the bottom of the grip is actually ABOVE the lowest point of the bolt carrier travel. The bottom of the grip is ABOVE the bottom of the recoil spring.

Hence I would claim that "pistol grip" as defined by CA law does not apply to the Kriss design lacking any clarifying definition of "action of the firearm" beyond what the CA hunter safety course teaches. Again, the Kriss pistol grip is more in line with the pistol style grip on the back of a 1919a6 as discussed in this thread

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=112361

Admittedly it is a huge grey area and I am personally not willing to be a test case... but I think from a technical and legal definition, the Kriss pistol grip DOES NOT protrude conspicuously below the action of the weapon.

Sorry for the thread jack....

You're ignoring the California Code of Regulations (CCR) in your interpretation of what an action is. It doesn't matter that you are mechanically correct in your terminology, the CCR which guides enforcement does not see it that way.


Thordo, I understand that what might be solidly legal as far as position of the web of the hand in relation to the imaginary line may be extremely uncomfortable (though I'm not completely convinced yet), however it's not like these laws were written with our comfort in mind. I do appreciate your efforts in this endeavour.
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  #61  
Old 12-06-2012, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schlyme View Post
Nice to see someone is giving it the good'ol collage try! As far as the look... lol, but I think the no longer available U-15 stock, Hammerhead or Monster Man Grip set up are not the best looking either. I plan on a future featureless built and like the fact that I not have 1 more option.

Who's making a collage?
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  #62  
Old 12-06-2012, 1:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drclark View Post
yes I am aware...and we wouldn't be having this discussion in this thread about the new stock if the law was clear.... however what is the definition of "action of the weapon"? Is it defined clearly in the law?
...
So what parts actually make up the action? Bolt, bolt carrier, recoil buffer and spring??? Heck, by the definition above the magazine itself could be considered part of the action....
...
I would claim that "pistol grip" as defined by CA law does not apply to the Kriss design lacking any clarifying definition of "action of the firearm" beyond what the CA hunter safety course teaches. Again, the Kriss pistol grip is more in line with the pistol style grip on the back of a 1919a6 as discussed in this thread
...
I think from a technical and legal definition, the Kriss pistol grip DOES NOT protrude conspicuously below the action of the weapon.
that's not how it works. what constitutes the "action" or what you think "protrude" means is irrelevant, because the entire phrase is just a label -- one that has a definition containing just one fairly clear test. go back and read the regulation i quoted, and think of it like this:

IF "the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing" ...

THEN what you have is "a pistol style grasp."

THUS "a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp" ...

IS LABELED a "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon."

that's it. nothing else needs to be parsed. there's no judgment about "action" or "protrudes" or "conspicuously."
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Old 12-06-2012, 5:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strongpoint View Post
that's not how it works. what constitutes the "action" or what you think "protrude" means is irrelevant, because the entire phrase is just a label -- one that has a definition containing just one fairly clear test. go back and read the regulation i quoted, and think of it like this:

IF "the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing" ...

THEN what you have is "a pistol style grasp."

THUS "a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp" ...

IS LABELED a "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon."

that's it. nothing else needs to be parsed. there's no judgment about "action" or "protrudes" or "conspicuously."
Then please explain the first paragraph of the 1919a6 letter (granted it is 12 years old now)



"In that these models have grips well behind the action of the weapon, they do not meet the pistol grip characteristic under the law"

So is this DOJ letter incorrect? A 1919a6 pistol grip allows for a pistol style grasp that allows for "the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing"
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Old 12-06-2012, 6:42 PM
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Originally Posted by drclark View Post
Then please explain the first paragraph of the 1919a6 letter (granted it is 12 years old now)

<image omitted>

"In that these models have grips well behind the action of the weapon, they do not meet the pistol grip characteristic under the law"

So is this DOJ letter incorrect? A 1919a6 pistol grip allows for a pistol style grasp that allows for "the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing"
that's really interesting ... i've never seen this letter before. it looks like the regulatory definition i cited above hadn't taken effect by then.

i'm not sure exactly what date the definition DID go into effect, but i know it was still involved in a public commentary period until july 31, 2000. the letter is dated march 28 of that year, and i believe that at that point, DOJ would have had nothing more to apply to the question than the plain text of the statute.
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Old 12-08-2012, 7:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drclark View Post
Then please explain the first paragraph of the 1919a6 letter (granted it is 12 years old now)



"In that these models have grips well behind the action of the weapon, they do not meet the pistol grip characteristic under the law"

So is this DOJ letter incorrect? A 1919a6 pistol grip allows for a pistol style grasp that allows for "the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing"
WOW!!
I've never seen this either. Even with the ton of research we've done. Where did you find this? It could be VERY significant. I put one of my staff on researching what or if there is a definition of "action" when describing the mechanism of a semi auto.

Thordo
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Old 12-14-2012, 4:36 PM
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Comparing the butterfly grips of a 1919 to the single and very-much-a-pistol-grip design Thordo has here is irrelevant.

I hate to see ingenuity and money wasted and that sure looks like a pistol grip to me (and any other layman) regardless of the opinion of a roomful of attorneys.

All this to avoid using a buttoned mag release and ten-rounders? I'll never understand.
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Old 09-18-2013, 11:13 AM
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Maybe there is a breakdown of the definitions soewhere else (and if so, will someone please site which section), but it seems to me that section 12276.1 of the CPC does not say anything about "webs", "thumbs", "fingers" or any other part of the body for that matter, and where their position should be on the gun.

All I read is "A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip." Thats it. It certainly makes distictions of a thumbhole stock and a pistol grip. Therefore a rifle stock (though not mentioned) must be a third distinction.

While there are many variations of thumbhole stocks, they all seem to incorporate a pistol grip, and therefore thats why the writers had to cover this loophole, because technically its merely an erganomical stock (closed off at the top, but handled the same way as a pistol grip).

However, there are few variations of pistol grips. While there are different manufactures and styles (ie. finger grooves and thumb rests) they all take on the same basic shape found on hand guns (pistols).

The bottom line is, the law is vague, and therefore open season to many loopholes such as the Thordsen and Archangel stocks. This is why its advisable to memorize, or even better; keep a mini penal code book with you, so that you can quote to knitpicking law enforcement.

Last edited by sconklin1227; 09-18-2013 at 11:15 AM..
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Old 09-18-2013, 1:03 PM
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Was something argued in court about web of the hand at some point that set a precedence?
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Old 09-18-2013, 1:13 PM
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Holy necrosis batman!

Lets continue this discussion after we figure out a way to beat SB374, unless you are really into moot arguments. . .
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Old 09-18-2013, 2:09 PM
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Default FRS-15 - Featureless Rifle Stock, question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sconklin1227 View Post
Maybe there is a breakdown of the definitions soewhere else (and if so, will someone please site which section), but it seems to me that section 12276.1 of the CPC does not say anything about "webs", "thumbs", "fingers" or any other part of the body for that matter, and where their position should be on the gun.

All I read is "A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip." Thats it. It certainly makes distictions of a thumbhole stock and a pistol grip. Therefore a rifle stock (though not mentioned) must be a third distinction.
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Originally Posted by CessnaDriver View Post
Was something argued in court about web of the hand at some point that set a precedence?
it's in the california code of regulations. don't bother reading the thread or anything.

Quote:
11 CCR 5469
The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1:
...
(d) "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.
section 5469 includes several other definitions that pertain to the AW law in its current form.
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Old 09-18-2013, 4:57 PM
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Thank you.
A lot of information doesn't always go into the permanent memory.
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Old 09-20-2013, 1:44 AM
sconklin1227 sconklin1227 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strongpoint View Post
it's in the california code of regulations. don't bother reading the thread or anything.



section 5469 includes several other definitions that pertain to the AW law in its current form.
Thanks for the site. But "dont bother NOT being a sarcasitc /-\$$ about it or anything".
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Old 09-20-2013, 8:52 AM
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Default FRS-15 - Featureless Rifle Stock, question?

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Originally Posted by sconklin1227 View Post
Thanks for the site. But "dont bother NOT being a sarcasitc /-\$$ about it or anything".
lurk moar, noob ... or just do your own homework; that's netiquette 101. i'm not the one who woke up a nine-month-dead thread to ask a question that -- in addition to being addressed not even 20 posts earlier in the same thread -- is answered in numerous places like the calguns wiki or the flowchart or even google.

apparently you think me pointing this out gently makes me a "sarcasitc /-\$$." i think i understand what that means, but i thought i was being rather kind about it. i'll try not to make that mistake again.
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Last edited by strongpoint; 09-20-2013 at 8:57 AM..
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Old 09-20-2013, 8:57 AM
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Big thing to remember is that in 2014 it doesn't matter anymore, as they'll all have to be RAW unless the Veto happens, or it's going to be illegal anyway.
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Old 09-20-2013, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artema View Post
Big thing to remember is that in 2014 it doesn't matter anymore, as they'll all have to be RAW unless the Veto happens, or it's going to be illegal anyway.

Yeah we are in a holding pattern right now on featureless futures.
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