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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #201  
Old 12-05-2012, 3:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom View Post
Don't throw Steven under the bus or anything...
Halbrook is an excellent 2A scholar. He's also a excellent 10A/Commerce Clause litigator. He is not an excellent 2A litigator, and we don't need "good". We need excellent. Period.
  #202  
Old 12-05-2012, 3:12 PM
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Crom, what bus? You mean the one he built for himself?
  #203  
Old 12-05-2012, 3:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
Halbrook is an excellent 2A scholar. He's also a excellent 10A/Commerce Clause litigator. He is not an excellent 2A litigator, and we don't need "good". We need excellent. Period.
Was Gura born into this world as an excellent 2A litigator? Was he the only one? It's a sad day if there will never be another one.
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  #204  
Old 12-05-2012, 3:23 PM
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You're right that there will never be another Gura.

NRA has and continues to be somewhere between a huge thorn and a huge risk to 2A litigation.
  #205  
Old 12-05-2012, 3:51 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
My one concern with the current state of things is its essentially two guys currently doing all the litigation. Donald Kilmer and Alan Gura. The victories have been easy cases like the various resident alien case or criminal defense attorney's pulling off small miracles when the issue was forced on them such as in Yanna and to a lessor degree Weaver. The one thing that, in the long run, the NRA guys in California are doing better is they are part of big firms so their younger guys are getting groomed to take over. Its not like Second Amendment litigation going to be decided in 20 years. Gitlow incorporated freedom of speech in 1914 and the body of law is still being built on. While I am sure their is something being done it does not appear like a new generation is being groomed. Levy and Clark Nelly were the motivating forces behind Heller but went back to other worthy pursuits. It seems like SAF should reach out to Nelly's Institute for Justice or follow their model in order to groom a new generation. Either that or figure out some accord with the NRA where the NRA still gets credit but SAF works independently. I may be speaking from ignorance as I only recently began learning about the politics involved here. If there is a preexisting plan please do correct me.


edit as to Mr. Halbrook. I don't know about his abilities as a lawyer but I do know that I drafted all of the history in Baker and his material was very helpful. Regardless of how he is in other fields he is a fine historian.
I like the idea of grooming additional litigators and coordinating efforts. I'm not sure that accomplishing all this is strictly within the control of either SAF or CGF.

But IIRC, Gura/SAF have not been behind all the litigation. I think that the primary litigator in Gray's case has not been Gura/SAF. Gray has used another competent attorney who was appropriate to the case and Gura has been added on to facilitate any SCOTUS litigation and to assist on the case to a limited degree.

Thing is, at this point in time the volume of appropriately timed and sequenced 2A litigation is actually pretty small. If you go far outside the current framework developed by the strategists/litigators who developed that framework you have a very high probability of getting something you really shouldn't want.

I remember when my house was being built. It was being built by the developer/contractor but I went by to see what was happening virtually every day. One day I found that the framers had done a very good job of putting in a wall between the hallway and the master bedroom. Very competently done - but there was supposed to be a door there if there was to actually be access to the bedroom!

Another time I came by and discovered they were putting in a chimney where the gas fireplace was going to go! The chimney would have cost them more money and made the roof more complex than I wanted there. They did a good job, but it was the wrong job.

Right now I think the litigation is like that. You need someone who knows exactly what has to go where in order to make sure everything is sequenced and structured properly. You let competent folk who don't understand the plan working without supervision and they'll do a very good job of making our rights inaccessible.

So you coordinate with Gura/SAF even if they don't do the litigating at the district and circuit levels. But about the only 2A litigators who ought to be touching the SCOTUS right now are Gura and (maybe) Clement. I like Gura, but Clement has an amazing amount of SCOTUS litigation so maybe there is some advantage to his arguing at that level - but I'd want him closely coordinating with Gura.
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  #206  
Old 12-05-2012, 3:59 PM
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Wolfwood, perhaps you would research the litigation before making broad assertions about how our cases are apportioned and managed. How many 2A cases have those "big" firms won again?
  #207  
Old 12-05-2012, 4:08 PM
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I completely agree with you. And Alan Gura is the guy who should be doing the big stuff. It really is amazing 2 guys are shaping a entire body of law. I am talking about building the next generation. The ACLU has attorneys that have been groomed to replace the old guard. The Institute for Justice is doing amazing work for Libertarianism and by building a coalition via internshps, workshops, etc. they are ensuring that their particular causes will be fought on long after the original attorneys retire. I'm not suggesting that is Kilmer or Gura's job. I am suggesting that 50 years from now a libertarian style ACLU that encompasses gun rights would be something amazing to have.

I think you guys are doing a amazing job as to the litigation and it is very well thought out. I am just referring to setting something up for the future. I am in no shape way or form critizing your very well thought out efforts. And i think it is amazing what you have done with a very small staff compared to say the ACLU. I was just making a observation that you/d have law students jumping at the opportunity to work for free for you guys. I'm sorry if I sounded critical. It was not meant to be just aspirational.

Last edited by wolfwood; 12-05-2012 at 4:21 PM..
  #208  
Old 12-05-2012, 4:35 PM
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Interestingly enough, a year or two ago CGF was (IIRC) exploring the idea of providing some sort of continuing education program for lawyers. Of course it was to be dealing with 2A litigation.

I do not know what came of that, but it seemed to me that they were thinking along the same lines as you are.
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  #209  
Old 12-05-2012, 10:31 PM
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A well thought out strategy of any type has both a contingency plan and a continuity plan. In this case, the contingency plan might be about what to do when undesired litigation by other parties that doesn't follow "your plan" occurs. The continuity plan could be about what to do when Gura (God forbid) gets hit by a bus. In either case, wringing your hands about something that comes to pass that you can't control doesn't affect the outcome in your favor. Planning for the unlikely might ensure success.
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  #210  
Old 12-06-2012, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Kukuforguns View Post
Perhaps I need to be more explicit. The 7th Circuit's decision in McDonald (not to mention Chicago's laws) indicate that the 7th Circuit is not a friend of the RKBA. Nevertheless, following McDonald, the 7th Circuit issued the Ezell opinion, which is much less antagonistic to the RKBA. As you say, it ruled in favor of the RKBA. By issuing that order -- an order that is inconsistent with the perceived inclinations of the 7th Circuit -- the 7th Circuit swallowed a bitter pill. It did something it did not like -- it ruled in favor of the RKBA. In other words, Ezell is evidence for the proposition that, in the context of the RKBA, federal courts are able to put aside personal feelings.

Just as what happened after Brown v Board of Education, Miranda, etc. Which is why I think that KCBrown is just a tad too pessimistic.

The rest of what you've posted is good also.


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  #211  
Old 12-06-2012, 10:26 AM
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Will the arguments be posted in audio form? I have been following CGF and 2AF on twitter, but would love to hear the full arguments.
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  #212  
Old 12-06-2012, 10:51 AM
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So the first case ended a litle bit ago. I followed the CGF twitter updates.. how did we do?
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  #213  
Old 12-06-2012, 10:56 AM
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how did we do?
Yeah, I'm curious too...
  #214  
Old 12-06-2012, 10:57 AM
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They are arguing the third case already(Baker). Peruta went ok(from what I could tell), but Gura killed it on Richards. Yolo was making stuff up as they went along...it was pretty sad.

I really hope we will be able to listen to the arguments.
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watching this state and country operate is like watching a water park burn down. doesn't make sense.
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  #215  
Old 12-06-2012, 11:13 AM
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HI sounds like a mess too.
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  #216  
Old 12-06-2012, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Coded-Dude View Post
Will the arguments be posted in audio form? I have been following CGF and 2AF on twitter, but would love to hear the full arguments.
Sometimes they are, sometimes not.

Could be as soon as tomorrow or Monday if it becomes available.
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  #217  
Old 12-06-2012, 3:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
Unluckily, for the Peruta plaintiff lawyers (Neuharth, Michel/Associates, and Clement), because of their lack of compliance with the state AG notification requirement, even the 9th Circuit sends back the case to have it all redone from scratch, all the Section 1988 billable hours from after the notification requirement window the first time around (around October of 2009) until it's sent back down to district to redo it all again, are now unrecoverable. That includes Mr. Clement's $1000/hour fee for his involvement in the case.
Not going to happen.

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Anywhere from tens of thousands to potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars in NRA-ILA/CRPAF money was just tossed down the drain that cannot be recovered from the San Diego Treasury in attorney fees. That money comes from your NRA memberships & donations to NRA-ILA, and also any donations you make to CRPAF as well.
Didn't happen.

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Mr. Clement, rather than making merits arguments on 2A, will likely get tied into a knot in re the notification issue during his 20 minutes of argument.
Didn't happen.

Quote:
The point of the OP was not about "gloating" and "infighting". It's about pointing out actual examples of lack of competence with basic federal rules of civil procedure that must be complied with, that people who have no business filing federal lawsuits should not be doing vanguard civil litigation in this fashion.
Bad example lol.

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Perhaps after oral argument, where we can see the results of the damage done by this bungled situation, NRA members should call up ILA, and CRPA members call up CRPA Foundation, and ask them why they are paying for massive mistakes such as this apparent horror show.
Then again, perhaps not!

Lots of fail here lol.

  #218  
Old 12-06-2012, 3:50 PM
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Fabio, were you at orals or did Chuck phone it in to you?
  #219  
Old 12-06-2012, 3:53 PM
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Fabio, were you at orals or did Chuck phone it in to you?
Duh, the audio is up. And you, and hoffmang, and Gray Peterson, were wrong. lol.
  #220  
Old 12-06-2012, 3:58 PM
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What prediction did I make that was wrong again?
  #221  
Old 12-06-2012, 4:14 PM
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Interestingly, I posited that 12031 needed to be facially challenged over a year ago, a position that was met with derision on this forrum. Alan Gura saw the light and in fact stated that the unconstitutional discretion granted to sheriffs actually flows from that statute, and is thereby the cause. just sayin....
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Old 12-06-2012, 4:18 PM
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Audio for those that care.

http://www.thegunmag.com/audio-safs-...ards-v-prieto/
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  #223  
Old 12-06-2012, 5:59 PM
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This link to the audio of today's 9th Circuit oral argument worked better for me.

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/media/vi..._id=0000010111
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  #224  
Old 12-06-2012, 6:14 PM
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Here's all 3 (courtesy of the other thread on calguns):

Edward Peruta, et al. v. County of San Diego, et al. found here: http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastor...6/10-56971.wma

Christopher Baker v. Louis Kealoha, et al. found here: http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastor...6/12-16258.wma

Adam Richards, et al. v. Ed Prieto, et al. found here: http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastor...6/11-16255.wma
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  #225  
Old 12-06-2012, 7:16 PM
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So, according to that Prieto lawyer, I can open carry to my hearts content in my own yard, front or back, fence or now fence, and I'll be in compliance?
Did I miss something or was he just spouting off BS in an attempt to deflect from the real issue?
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  #226  
Old 12-06-2012, 7:39 PM
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Can anyone host these as mp3s?

First I have to miss the orals due to a last minute work travel, now I'm stuck on the road with a POS Kimble fire that wont play WMAs. Help!
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  #227  
Old 12-06-2012, 8:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Clownpuncher View Post
So, according to that Prieto lawyer, I can open carry to my hearts content in my own yard, front or back, fence or now fence, and I'll be in compliance?
Did I miss something or was he just spouting off BS in an attempt to deflect from the real issue?
Bolded pretty much gets it. Seemed every time he opened his mouth he was misquoting statute either purposefully or ignorantly broadening the actual ability to carry a gun in most circumstances*.


*Subject to exceptions which he does not articulate.
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  #228  
Old 12-06-2012, 8:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Clownpuncher View Post
So, according to that Prieto lawyer, I can open carry to my hearts content in my own yard, front or back, fence or now fence, and I'll be in compliance?
Did I miss something or was he just spouting off BS in an attempt to deflect from the real issue?
Don't forget you can LOC in your car from your home to the range.
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Old 12-06-2012, 8:54 PM
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Originally Posted by CitaDeL View Post
Bolded pretty much gets it. Seemed every time he opened his mouth he was misquoting statute either purposefully or ignorantly broadening the actual ability to carry a gun in most circumstances*.


*Subject to exceptions which he does not articulate.
"Look, everyone can carry a gun while naked in their bathroom listening to Boston's Third Stage, AND to and from the toilet. I don't see why any of us are here!!!"
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  #230  
Old 12-06-2012, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Maestro Pistolero View Post
Can anyone host these as mp3s?
MP3: Edward Peruta, et al. v. County of San Diego, et al.
MP3: Adam Richards, et al. v. Ed Prieto, et al.
MP3: Christopher Baker v. Louis Kealoha, et al.
  #231  
Old 12-06-2012, 10:24 PM
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Thank you so much.
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  #232  
Old 12-06-2012, 10:42 PM
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After listening to the oral arguments in both Peruta v. San Diego and Richards v. Prieto, it is my lay view that the arguments of both of the county counsels were woefully weak and incredibly inadequate.

In particular, the counsel for San Diego County was absolutely pounded by the justices and many flaws in his reasoning for supporting the current licensing policies of Sheriff Gore were exposed.

In both cases it seemed, again only in my lay view, that these Sheriffs are simply trying to secure there rights to issue concealed carry permits to whoever they care about with zero accountability. I'm hoping, and I am actually a little more optimistic now after listening to these arguments, that we have a shot at overturning these policies.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by bulgron View Post
Actually, the founders knew that government would eventually act to violate the terms set forth in the constitution, which is why they gave us a federal court. The whole point is to use the court to force government back into the narrow channels allowed to them.
Not trying to hijack the thread, but the court arrogated this role to itself, as it
continued to do with other extraconstitutional functions it performs routinely to this day.



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  #234  
Old 12-06-2012, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by sighere View Post
Interestingly, I posited that 12031 needed to be facially challenged over a year ago, a position that was met with derision on this forrum. Alan Gura saw the light and in fact stated that the unconstitutional discretion granted to sheriffs actually flows from that statute, and is thereby the cause. just sayin....
Can you please point to any point in any Richards brief where 12031 or its successor was called into question? The state law Mr. Gura challenged is the license section that speaks of "good cause" and "good moral character." It's the issue that San Deigo counsel was trying so hard to push the argument over to in Peruta. Yolo doesn't have that option in Richards.

Further, the panel never called into question whether the state could ban all types of OC - they in fact seemed fine with it.

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  #235  
Old 12-07-2012, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
Further, the panel never called into question whether the state could ban all types of OC - they in fact seemed fine with it.

Of course. The open carry ban wasn't what was being challenged. If they brought that in, it would muddle what the cases were be about. The cases were challenging their right to carry the only (sort of) legal way left, which was the concealed carry permit route. To bring in if open carry bans were allowed would only serve to derail the conversation.
  #236  
Old 12-07-2012, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Clownpuncher View Post
So, according to that Prieto lawyer, I can open carry to my hearts content in my own yard, front or back, fence or now fence, and I'll be in compliance?
Did I miss something or was he just spouting off BS in an attempt to deflect from the real issue?
Also, if you want to enter a bar or restaurant, you only need to unload. No mention of the fact that both unloaded open carry and unloaded concealed carry are illegal.
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  #237  
Old 12-07-2012, 1:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clownpuncher View Post
So, according to that Prieto lawyer, I can open carry to my hearts content in my own yard, front or back, fence or now fence, and I'll be in compliance?
Did I miss something or was he just spouting off BS in an attempt to deflect from the real issue?
Yolo counsel literally made stuff up as he went.

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  #238  
Old 12-07-2012, 2:10 AM
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Originally Posted by sighere View Post
Interestingly, I posited that 12031 needed to be facially challenged over a year ago, a position that was met with derision on this forrum.
Does your case challenge the former 12031?

Quote:
Alan Gura saw the light and in fact stated that the unconstitutional discretion granted to sheriffs actually flows from that statute, and is thereby the cause. just sayin....
Actually, Alan argued his case. Which, of course, doesn't challenge 12031. The sheriffs' discretion flows from 26150 (formerly 12050):

Quote:
(a) When a person applies for a license to carry a pistol,
revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the
person, the sheriff of a county may issue a license to that person
upon proof of all of the following:
(1) The applicant is of good moral character.
(2) Good cause exists for issuance of the license.
Just sayin...

-Brandon
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  #239  
Old 12-07-2012, 2:55 AM
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What is the point of registering or listing the firearm you intend to carry?

Look, you gave me a permit, you either trust my judgement or you don't. What does it matter the one I chose to carry each day.
This is just more burden for the citizen to carry just to exercise his 2A right.

Give me the permit, I'll carry what I feel like I need to carry for the day. Do I need to list ever gun I may carry? Ridiculous!

I carried for 16 years, never an issue, never any requirement to carry a specific gun. Never a problem. Excessive regulation.




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  #240  
Old 12-07-2012, 3:50 AM
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Understand that I agree with you that they needn't know what I carry. What's more, I don't think you should have to have a permit to carry at all. If you aren't prohibited you should be able to carry.

But there is a certain logic to identifying what you carry. If the sheriff sees that you are planning to carry a .50 caliber handgun he's probably gonna figure you've got a screw loose since they're just generally not a great self-defense weapon.

I'm not saying that justifies the requirement. But I remember being told a few years ago that if I tried to apply for a carry license and listed a .44 Magnum or .50 caliber pistol that my application would probably be denied.
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