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  #41  
Old 12-04-2012, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by kaligaran View Post
I saw that. I guess there's not even a request in to the CADoJ pending then?

That's too bad. If someone gets a letter later on, please post.
there was a request - response was "seek legal counsel to make this determination"... not sure what an additional request would achieve.
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  #42  
Old 12-04-2012, 1:36 PM
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Originally Posted by kaligaran View Post
As this been presented to the CADoJ for confirmation they won't consider it a pistol grip?

If so I'd love to get one (or two or three) and a copy of the letter to keep in my range bag just in case.
that's not really how the state DOJ operates.
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  #43  
Old 12-04-2012, 1:42 PM
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let me know if you make one for the thompson
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  #44  
Old 12-04-2012, 2:06 PM
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I’ll respond to everyone’s concerns with a statement about why Thordsen Customs stands by the FRS-15 Featureless Rifle Stock.

We’ve spent over a year studying case law, penal code, geometry of firearms, and natural form to develop this design. We’ve gone through dozens of design concepts searching for the perfect balance between comfort and conformance. You may recall several months ago, we had two survey posts asking specific information about hand dimensions and stock lengths. We received hundreds of responses to those posts and the data was used to develop the length, arcs, and angles of the design.

We’ve conducted several focus groups, surveyed hundreds of people at guns shows, several of whom were law enforcement (hell, some of them could have been undercover DOJ for all I know), and customers that visit our shop. The overwhelming majority of whom liked the fit and comfort and when asked what they would classify it as, pistol grip or rifle stock? The answer was overwhelmingly, “rifle stock”. Of course, none of this means squat to a prosecutor, but it has helped to guide the final design.

We submitted our design to DOJ for approval and received the standard form letter of non opinion (see attached). We followed the directive given to us to seek legal counsel. We consulted three firearms defense attorneys to satisfy DOJs directive (two of which were former district attorneys in California counties and had tried firearms cases). We submitted a draft to the ATF Technology Branch for an opinion and their reply was that they have no jurisdiction over California law (see attached). The fourth and final attorney we consulted was a specialist in 2A law. We finally decided that it was time to make it public. All attorneys agreed that the FRS-15 Featureless Rifle Stock when assembled with other non featured parts, DOES NOT qualify as an assault weapon under Penal Code 30515 (a) and is defensible in court.

Sadly, in cases like Haynee vs Pleasanton or People vs. Haack and Haack, someone may still get arrested. No one can control whether a peace officer understands the subtleties of the law. I personally have been transporting, demonstrating, and shooting an FRS-15 Featureless Rifle stock for nearly a year now. I used one at my last tactical training class. One of the students was even a CHP officer. I’ve had it displayed openly on our table at the last few gun shows. A couple of State Police officers, at the Cal Expo show a couple of weeks ago, thought it was very cool and didn’t see a problem with it (I suppose this was confirmed because they didn’t arrest me) as did a Solano County Sheriff’s Deputy at the Vallejo show this past weekend.

It’s an entirely different world from when the cases noted above were tried. Police and corrections officers are far better educated now especially since they have to follow many of the same rules that we do with their personal firearms and are just as vulnerable to prosecution as we are.

I thank Gene Hoffman for his bump!! There’s no way to describe the incredible boost of confidence we received from those few words.

With all of this said. If our product is still too close to the edge for comfort for some people we totally respect that. It took several months for the UBBT to be accepted by the market and now after nearly four years, it is one of the best known enhancements for the AR enthusiast.






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  #45  
Old 12-04-2012, 2:12 PM
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I added some profile pics of the fit and grasp of the stock to the OP. Don't pay attention to my bald round head

Also. I changed the email address to send inquiries about the FRS stock to. It was too hard to sort out dealers for our regular products with FRS stock orders and we don't want anyone to get lost.

We're still sorting it out and will start responding to emails tomorrow.

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  #46  
Old 12-04-2012, 2:12 PM
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^^^ I can't speak for others, but I appreciate all that you have done (and are doing) for us enthusiasts in this restrictive state...

I was interested in reading the two attachments mentioned - but they aren't there
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  #47  
Old 12-04-2012, 2:17 PM
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Originally Posted by LBDamned View Post
^^^ I can't speak for others, but I appreciate all that you have done (and are doing) for us enthusiasts in this restrictive state...

I was interested in reading the two attachments mentioned - but they aren't there
Shoot I forgot about that. Give me a minute.

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  #48  
Old 12-04-2012, 2:24 PM
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Letters added.

Thordo
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  #49  
Old 12-04-2012, 2:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Thordo View Post
Letters added.

Thordo
thanks... considering CA DOJ didn't even address you by correct name, It's no surprise that they couldn't help with the unit's legality.
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  #50  
Old 12-04-2012, 2:42 PM
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Yeah, we thought that was really funny. It's either a "fill in the blanks" form letter done by an intern (possible future governor?) or by design.

Thordo
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  #51  
Old 12-04-2012, 3:04 PM
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the doj and attorney do not have the duty to "approve" anything but they should tell you if an item is "illegal" it is kind of their duty as a public servant
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  #52  
Old 12-04-2012, 3:09 PM
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Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
the doj and attorney do not have the duty to "approve" anything but they should tell you if an item is "illegal" it is kind of their duty as a public servant
how can you trust the goof that types correspondent's name correct in the address line, then calls him a different name in the salutation line.

It would be like if you were at an event with a name tag that says "Hello my name is Bohoki"... and the attorney general walked up and said "Hi Jim".
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Last edited by retired; 02-21-2014 at 1:08 PM..
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  #53  
Old 12-04-2012, 7:01 PM
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Originally Posted by FourLoko View Post
I see it now, clever. I'll let the Lancer mag slide. I love mine, tested them out today.
Hi Fourloko,

I fixed the lancer pic.

I agree. I've switched all my USGI mags out for Lancers. They are awesome!!

Thordo
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  #54  
Old 12-04-2012, 7:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBDamned View Post
how can you trust the goof that types correspondent's name correct in the address line, then calls him a different name in the salutation line.

It would be like if you were at an event with a name tag that says "Hello my name is Bohoki"... and the attorney general walked up and said "Hi Jim".
i wouldn't care what they call me as long as its not defendant

Last edited by retired; 02-21-2014 at 1:08 PM..
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  #55  
Old 12-05-2012, 1:35 AM
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any plans to offer shorter LOPs? and compatibility with buttpads for longer LOPs?
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  #56  
Old 12-05-2012, 8:37 AM
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I've hated all the other featureless stocks and have only built BB rifles because of it to go along side my RAW. This one looks the best and most comfortable by far and I may try one out.

I'd also like to know if an A1 length will be offered. And why did you choose PC/ABS? Simply because they solvent weld the easiest? It isn't the best choice for chemical resistance. Many solvents and cleaners will easily ruin it. Since you are injection molding, why not use a better suited material and sonic weld the two halves together? Heck, I wouldn't even mind if the two halves were screwed together.
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  #57  
Old 12-05-2012, 9:58 AM
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Please direct all technical questions to our new thread in the New Products forum by following this link.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=652775


Thordo
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  #58  
Old 12-05-2012, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSoul View Post
Actually, I too would like to know who the lawyers were that gave their opinions as gtg on this. If you cannot give names or firms out, are they at least experienced 2a lawyers?
Good question.

I'll add...

Would http://www.calgunlawyers.com/ consider this good to go ?

If it passes muster from above, and it will handle 458 Socom recoil...I will be getting one for sure.
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  #59  
Old 12-06-2012, 12:43 AM
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Temp locked for BTT violations - please use PM's for all questions!!

Will unlock when all parties involved understand this!!

Last edited by Turbinator; 12-06-2012 at 12:48 AM..
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  #60  
Old 12-08-2012, 6:38 AM
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I'll finally be updating our website this weekend.

Thordo
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  #61  
Old 12-08-2012, 6:50 AM
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What crazy upper is that with the barrel shroud/handguard thing. That is a wild looking setup and am a little curious about it.


VERY cool product BTW and I'll probably buy one for my 3rd build. I have 2 right now and one featureless, one with a JTROCKS BB that is easily removed for featureless, and my last one will probably be this setup now. Does it come with a buffer tube, or anything, or whats the situation there. (It may be there, but I went through the info on it pretty fast.)
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  #62  
Old 12-08-2012, 7:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thordo View Post
I'll finally be updating our website this weekend.

Thordo
is this code talk for "production will be ready to purchase this weekend"?
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  #63  
Old 12-09-2012, 6:14 AM
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Originally Posted by LBDamned View Post
is this code talk for "production will be ready to purchase this weekend"?
I WISH!! We've got a bit more time and $$$ to spend!!

Thordo
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  #64  
Old 12-09-2012, 7:12 AM
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What is the rough release date on these?
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  #65  
Old 12-09-2012, 9:13 AM
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I got one of the pre production stocks in yesterday. REALLY like how it handles/feels.

Shooting it today
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  #66  
Old 12-10-2012, 5:37 AM
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I got one of the pre production stocks in yesterday. REALLY like how it handles/feels.

Shooting it today
COOL!!
Give us some feedback!!

Thordo
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  #67  
Old 12-10-2012, 7:54 AM
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it looks like the stock is close to the same length as most ak's and is a bit short for my taste. Any chance of a longer stock in the future?
thanks

Last edited by VTX; 12-10-2012 at 7:59 AM..
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  #68  
Old 12-10-2012, 10:13 AM
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What is the LOP on this?
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  #69  
Old 12-10-2012, 4:08 PM
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Man this thing pisses me off. It just shows the extremes that we need to go through.
That said its nice to see people like yourself adjusting to the stupid Cali laws.
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  #70  
Old 12-11-2012, 7:47 AM
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What is the LOP on this?
13.5 inches.

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  #71  
Old 12-12-2012, 5:32 AM
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btt
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  #72  
Old 12-12-2012, 9:22 AM
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I would probably get on if it didn't block off the rounded portion of the lower receiver, so I could access the selector switch AND if the price were right. I don't know why everyone wants to block that off (especially magpull w/ their pistol grips...) when it would be more ergonomic to me to be able to reach that selector more-quickly.
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  #73  
Old 12-12-2012, 9:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the86d View Post
I would probably get on if it didn't block off the rounded portion of the lower receiver, so I could access the selector switch AND if the price were right. I don't know why everyone wants to block that off (especially magpull w/ their pistol grips...) when it would be more ergonomic to me to be able to reach that selector more-quickly.
You must have really short fingers. My hands are by no means large but I can still reach the selector and mag release with Magpul grips. Have you tried the MIAD without the back strap?

Back on topic. My only concern would be the imaginary line from the top of the trigger to the web of the hand and that DOJ may still construe this as a pistol grip.
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  #74  
Old 12-14-2012, 4:03 PM
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btt
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  #75  
Old 12-15-2012, 3:29 PM
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btt
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  #76  
Old 12-17-2012, 5:47 AM
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Interesting
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  #77  
Old 12-17-2012, 3:36 PM
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btt
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  #78  
Old 12-17-2012, 11:27 PM
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I don't go to California gunshows anymore (since I'm not really into bumper stickers, beef jerky, or dolls). At what stores in Sacramento will these stocked?
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  #79  
Old 12-18-2012, 9:16 AM
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Very innovative. Sad that this is the future of this state.
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  #80  
Old 12-18-2012, 9:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Midtown Gunner View Post
I don't go to California gunshows anymore (since I'm not really into bumper stickers, beef jerky, or dolls). At what stores in Sacramento will these stocked?
Hi Midtown Gunner,

Production model stocks will not be available until late February into March. We will not be approaching any of our dealers until probably late January.

The backlog for pre production machined stocks is currently 3-4 weeks.

Thordo
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