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  #1  
Old 11-29-2012, 8:44 AM
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Default Bob Vogel on Stage Tactics

Has anyone viewed this video (not just the preview/trailer)? What are the opinions of the competitors among us who have?

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Old 11-29-2012, 2:58 PM
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Vogel is one of the top shooters on the planet in both ISPC and USPSA and IDPA. He took first at the 2011 USPSA Nationals in Limited 10, and I think he has only been at it for less than 10 years. When he says tactics, he means the fastest way to shoot a stage while earning the greatest number of points (stage math). It does not mean training tactics like cops use.
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Old 11-29-2012, 5:41 PM
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Originally Posted by HighLander51 View Post
...When he says tactics, he means the fastest way to shoot a stage while earning the greatest number of points (stage math). It does not mean training tactics like cops use. ...
I am aware of that. I wasn't making some backhanded stealth comment about tactical training.

What I am interested in is if anyone of you experienced competition shooters have seen the video, and what opinions - if any - you all have about his approach to the games.
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Old 11-29-2012, 5:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post

What I am interested in is if anyone of you experienced competition shooters have seen the video, and what opinions - if any - you all have about his approach to the games.
He does what all winning competition shooters do, practice stages. He is an awesome shooter.
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Old 11-29-2012, 6:09 PM
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I'm going to watch Bob Vogel's new video soon.

He's from another planet when it comes to shooting in just about any form (he's also a full time copper and in his SWAT unit).

In the Mastering IDPA video he explains the nuances and efficiencies in equipment and moving. At the tail end he explains, strategizes and then runs the IDPA Classifier in a mind-boggling 56 seconds (SSP Division)! Insane! Silky smooth and seemingly effortless! The best I've ever done is 96.xx which is not bad but are you kidding me?!

I know people who have taken his classes in NorCal and raved about it. We're hoping he'll trek on down to SoCal in 2013.

In the Stage Tactics of Practical Shooting video Bob covers both IDPA & USPSA.
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Last edited by ramzar; 11-29-2012 at 6:42 PM.. Reason: Missing word: watch - Add links
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Old 11-29-2012, 6:10 PM
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ZT I am guessing you feel its more in tune with tactics because of the "real life" props and use of cover etc. I feel the same way but I just cant stand the matches IDPA puts on with the complaining and arguing over people doing the stage "right". They tell you how to do it and you must follow exactly but as you can imagine if the RO and squad are friends they will be lax on their rule calling but if you arent one of them it wont be so nice. The low round count and long days have made me really hate IDPA but I wish it were not that because its more about what I consider practice for my ccw.

There are no tactics for shooting competition unless you consider stage design and how you may try something new and different. In IDPA that wont happen or again you didnt follow the stage plan. In USPSA you can think for yourself but there is no use of cover required so some think its not practical in terms of practice.

From the vid Vogel seems to be like most GMs and is just very fast but still very accurate. Throw some tactics from your side and he is the ultimate shooter. I think this is what we all keep going round and round on but you can watch Vogel and see what speed is while still maintaining the plan of the stage for IDPA which is using cover. For that reason I think people like you will consider it better for some reason. Its still about using props and still a game but as you can tell his skills would still be useful off the range.

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Old 11-29-2012, 6:24 PM
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I haven't seen it but did watch his first one, which was extremely good. I've seen him shoot when I lived in Georgia while he was still under the tutelage of that old geezer, Dave Sevigny. I think if you want to shoot at his level, you shouldn't discount his youth which helps with fast reflexes and sight speed. But the guy has amazing natural ability too.
As to the content, it's been my experience that devising and executing a winning stage strategy is huge in the game and often times more important than running or shooting fast.
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Old 11-29-2012, 8:04 PM
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Originally Posted by whitey4311 View Post
ZT I am guessing you feel its more in tune with tactics because of the "real life" props and use of cover etc. ...
Not really. Bob goes over both IDPA and USPSA approaches for several stages in the video. "Tactics" in this sense has only to do with how he goes over a stage and decides how he is going to approach it ... best shooting positions, when/where to move, where to plant, order of fire (for USPSA) ... stuff like that.

If any of you guys end up seeing it, I'd like to know what you think of his approach.
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Old 11-29-2012, 8:15 PM
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he is a cyborg, it will be revealed one day.
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Old 11-30-2012, 5:06 AM
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Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
Not really. Bob goes over both IDPA and USPSA approaches for several stages in the video. "Tactics" in this sense has only to do with how he goes over a stage and decides how he is going to approach it ... best shooting positions, when/where to move, where to plant, order of fire (for USPSA) ... stuff like that.

If any of you guys end up seeing it, I'd like to know what you think of his approach.
I guess we simply over look noticing that when its all we really do. I shoot with Gm's and M class shooters each week that help me with this. We look at a stage and decide the best way to engage targets to minimize movement and be efficient in our steps. Depending on your gun and mag capacity this is different for everyone. It forces us to think and if you can see a better way to run the stage you can pull ahead of the pack. I have been pushing harder past couple weeks and it paid off for me big time and I moved up higher then ever before in last weeks match.

In IDPA none of that happens because they force one and one way only. Some will try and be lawyers and find ways around the rules and argue the description didnt say you couldnt do it that way then the arguing starts. This is the part that turns me away from it and its too bad because I am the only one shooting concealed at USPSA. I use the game as practice and shoot my CCW gear and gun etc. It has helped me a lot in my abilities and now I need to see how that is going to carry over to what you guys do if I can find the right class for me.

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Old 11-30-2012, 5:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
Not really. "Tactics" in this sense has only to do with how he goes over a stage and decides how he is going to approach it ... best shooting positions, when/where to move, where to plant, order of fire (for USPSA) ... stuff like that.
Yes, competitive shooters know what stage tactics means, ie, the fastest run with the most points, but you need to come out and try it for yourself. It will only make sense then. About the only difference in a run between Open and Limited versus Limited 10, SS and Production is where to change mags.
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Old 11-30-2012, 4:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
At the tail end he explains, strategizes and then runs the IDPA Classifier in a mind-boggling 56 seconds (SSP Division)! Insane! Silky smooth and seemingly effortless! The best I've ever done is 96.xx which is not bad but are you kidding me?!
Ram, there are alot of guys who can run the IDPA classifier into the 50's. I am old and slow and can't see that well but can still run in the mid 80's from concealment.. Here is the deal, only a very, very small fraction of top IPSC/USPSA shooters care about IDPA. The top IPSC/USPSA shooters would certainly get into the mid/high 40's. Shooting the classifier is one thing, shooting a match is another thing.
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Old 11-30-2012, 5:07 PM
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Rob Leathem, Dave Sevigny and others have obviously shot both USPSA and IDPA. I did a search and didn't find any times, but I wonder what they have shot the classifier in. No one would argue with where Leathem ranks among top shooters. Mark
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Old 11-30-2012, 5:10 PM
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Ram, there are alot of guys who can run the IDPA classifier into the 50's. I am old and slow and can't see that well but can still run in the mid 80's from concealment.. Here is the deal, only a very, very small fraction of top IPSC/USPSA shooters care about IDPA. The top IPSC/USPSA shooters would certainly get into the mid/high 40's. Shooting the classifier is one thing, shooting a match is another thing.
If you can run the IDPA Classifier in Stock Service Pistol with a mid 80's score from concealment that's excellent. More power to you.

Dave Sevigny and Ben Stoeger run it in just under 60 seconds and Bob Vogel is mid 50's.
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Old 12-01-2012, 4:30 AM
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Dave Sevigny and Ben Stoeger run it in just under 60 seconds and Bob Vogel is mid 50's.
You are missing the point. When the IDPA first got going in late 97/early 98 the mark for the classifier was in the high 60's/low 70's. Today the mark is in the mid 50's. However it is not a number based on a large population of the very top USPSA/IPSC shooters, but rather a very small population. Generally speaking a USPSA Grand Master can run the same stage in about half the time of a better than average competitive shooter (USPSA B or IDPA Expert).
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Old 12-01-2012, 5:44 AM
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You are missing the point. When the IDPA first got going in late 97/early 98 the mark for the classifier was in the high 60's/low 70's. Today the mark is in the mid 50's. However it is not a number based on a large population of the very top USPSA/IPSC shooters, but rather a very small population. Generally speaking a USPSA Grand Master can run the same stage in about half the time of a better than average competitive shooter (USPSA B or IDPA Expert).
From what you're saying here and in the past, for pistol shooting, the only thing worth doing is competitive shooting and the only competitive shooting worth doing is USPSA/IPSC...
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Old 12-01-2012, 6:28 AM
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From what you're saying here and in the past, for pistol shooting, the only thing worth doing is competitive shooting and the only competitive shooting worth doing is USPSA/IPSC...
What he is actually saying (IMHO) is that USPSA/IPSC competitors are typically faster and more accurate shooters than folks who only compete in IDPA. In other words, USPSA/IPSC is a "pure racing" type of competition and IDPA is a game based form of competition that doesn't focus 100% on achieving the fastest lap time possible on a course.

Neither is a better sport, both have their plusses and their minuses. You just have to decide which cup of tea you prefer. Some like both, some don't.
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Old 12-01-2012, 8:39 AM
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What he is actually saying (IMHO) is that USPSA/IPSC competitors are typically faster and more accurate shooters than folks who only compete in IDPA. In other words, USPSA/IPSC is a "pure racing" type of competition and IDPA is a game based form of competition that doesn't focus 100% on achieving the fastest lap time possible on a course.

Neither is a better sport, both have their plusses and their minuses. You just have to decide which cup of tea you prefer. Some like both, some don't.
I agree that USPSA/IPSC makes you faster but I also think that IDPA makes you shoot more accurately.

I also think that if a committed IDPA shooter considers themselves slow they should compete in USPSA and if a USPSA shooter is inaccurate they should try IDPA.

I like all types of shooting practice as long as there's good use of available time.
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Old 12-01-2012, 9:04 AM
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I agree that USPSA/IPSC makes you faster but I also think that IDPA makes you shoot more accurately.

I also think that if a committed IDPA shooter considers themselves slow they should compete in USPSA and if a USPSA shooter is inaccurate they should try IDPA.

I like all types of shooting practice as long as there's good use of available time.
I agree. Both games have their strong points, just a matter of choice. I prefer USPSA but recognize that IDPA has it's own values that provide something USPSA does not (and vice versa).
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Old 12-01-2012, 11:05 AM
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I agree that USPSA/IPSC makes you faster but I also think that IDPA makes you shoot more accurately.
I think a more accurate statement would be that misses in IDPA are less excusable...as you aren't dealing with a power factor as you do in USPSA.

Being faster pays bigger dividends in IDPA than accuracy until you get to the higher levels
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Old 12-01-2012, 4:26 PM
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I agree that USPSA/IPSC makes you faster but I also think that IDPA makes you shoot more accurately.

I also think that if a committed IDPA shooter considers themselves slow they should compete in USPSA and if a USPSA shooter is inaccurate they should try IDPA.

I like all types of shooting practice as long as there's good use of available time.
USPSA shooters dont win by being inaccurate. I am not sure how you made that up in your head but you clearly dont like USPSA which is fine. Just understand how it works and I think you will see the point being made. When you watch the vids of these guys blazzing, the hits are all there and its quite amazing to watch. Training and IDPA seem to take a slower pace to get their hits but a USPSA guy will be much faster and still get the hits. The hits just wont be doubles, lol.

Some where along the progression of speed you will loose accuracy until it catches back up. I had 2 weeks of several misses and the 3rd week it dialed in and I performed and placed higher then ever before. You have to push for speed and stay with it to get good at that. The accuracy will dial in as you keep pushing but if you only ever care about doubles on the paper and super accuracy your speed will never advance. This is why I value the "game" more then I do classes so I can work on that push. I can always slow down to make hits but its doing it fast that sets shooters apart.

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Old 12-01-2012, 6:16 PM
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"USPSA shooters dont win by being inaccurate."

Also, IDPA shooters don't win by being slow. The best shooters in all of the action shooting sports are very fast and very accurate. The balance between the speed/accuracy reward does vary a little bit from one sport to the other. The general pace in USPSA is faster than IDPA because you don't have to worry about using cover(when shooting or reloading), retention reloads, tactical priority,etc. I started with IDPA but find myself liking USPSA more, partly because of there being less subjectivity to the scoring. ICORE matches lean a little more towards rewarding accuracy. Mark
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Old 12-01-2012, 6:19 PM
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"I think a more accurate statement would be that misses in IDPA are less excusable...as you aren't dealing with a power factor as you do in USPSA."

No power factor in IDPA?? Am I missing something? Mark
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Old 12-01-2012, 7:47 PM
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"I think a more accurate statement would be that misses in IDPA are less excusable...as you aren't dealing with a power factor as you do in USPSA."

No power factor in IDPA?? Am I missing something? Mark
IDPA rules specify 125 power factor for the SSP, ESP and SSR divisions. CDP and ESR require 165 power factor

USPSA minor is 135 and major is 165.

Neither sport rewards fast misses. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWQ7nlQdxRI
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Old 12-01-2012, 7:58 PM
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Recently, the SSR power factor was dropped to 105 because it was hard to find factory 38 special ammo that met the higher power factor. The guy I quoted seems to be under the impression that IDPA doesn't have power factors to deal with. Mark
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Old 12-01-2012, 8:01 PM
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Uspsa minor PF is 125 minimum, not 135.
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Old 12-01-2012, 8:02 PM
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Bad choice of words. What I was referring to was scoring hits.

IDPA hits all score the same...there is no Major or Minor scoring differences outside the center area
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Old 12-01-2012, 9:08 PM
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Oh. You were refering to the major/minor scoring. Got it. Mark
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Old 12-02-2012, 6:54 AM
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The subjective complaint of IDPA is spot on and largely why I hated it from the start. Whining and complaining like kids and people acting like lawyers arguing about the rules DONT SAY YOU CANT so why cant they do it differently then written. It was just terrible but honestly IDPA is more to do about what I want to practice so I am disappointed. I use USPSA as a method to practice and put my own spin on it to make that work.

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Old 12-02-2012, 11:06 AM
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USPSA shooters dont win by being inaccurate. I am not sure how you made that up in your head but you clearly dont like USPSA which is fine.
That's not what I said. This is what I said:

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I also think that if a committed IDPA shooter considers themselves slow they should compete in USPSA and if a USPSA shooter is inaccurate they should try IDPA.
I do NOT disklike either USPSA or IDPA or GSSF or any other form of competitive shooting or practice. Cross training is important. Sometimes to go fast and sometimes to go accurate.
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:40 PM
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The main differences between the two are about style.

USPSA challenges you with a problem and asks you to solve it with a minmium amount of restrictions, and encourages you to be as creative as possible. It is possible to win a stage or a match by being the smartest shooter, and not the fastest shooter.

IDPA is very chorographied and requires everyone to basically shoot every stage the same, creativity is not normally rewarded and often punished. In order to win you have to be the fastest as defined by the shortest time combined with the least penalties. IDPA is often thought of being the slower of the two shooting sports but that is only true when done poorly as it is less tolerant of poor skill sets. IDPA shot at the highest levels is shot at a very fast pace because not only do you have to shoot, you have to do all of the other silly stuff they require you to do at the same time.
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Old 12-02-2012, 1:15 PM
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"IDPA is very chorographied and requires everyone to basically shoot every stage the same, creativity is not normally rewarded and often punished. In order to win you have to be the fastest as defined by the shortest time combined with the least penalties. IDPA is often thought of being the slower of the two shooting sports but that is only true when done poorly as it is less tolerant of poor skill sets. IDPA shot at the highest levels is shot at a very fast pace because not only do you have to shoot, you have to do all of the other silly stuff they require you to do at the same time."

The top level IDPA shooters waste no time shooting a stage and following IDPA rules. The lower level shooters sometimes take a LOT of time using cover properly, starting to shoot and having to get back behind cover, thinking about tactical priority, etc. Mark
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Old 12-02-2012, 1:24 PM
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The top level IDPA shooters waste no time shooting a stage and following IDPA rules. The lower level shooters sometimes take a LOT of time using cover properly, starting to shoot and having to get back behind cover, thinking about tactical priority, etc. Mark
If you're talking about running the stage efficiently yes but the rules of the game/sport don't change just because you're faster or improper use of cover.
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Old 12-02-2012, 1:40 PM
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The main differences between the two are about style.

USPSA challenges you with a problem and asks you to solve it with a minmium amount of restrictions, and encourages you to be as creative as possible. It is possible to win a stage or a match by being the smartest shooter, and not the fastest shooter.

IDPA is very chorographied and requires everyone to basically shoot every stage the same, creativity is not normally rewarded and often punished. In order to win you have to be the fastest as defined by the shortest time combined with the least penalties. IDPA is often thought of being the slower of the two shooting sports but that is only true when done poorly as it is less tolerant of poor skill sets. IDPA shot at the highest levels is shot at a very fast pace because not only do you have to shoot, you have to do all of the other silly stuff they require you to do at the same time.
As a related aside, both IDPA & USPSA are quite different than solo room/house clearing in defensive/tactical training in a shoot house. For instance, opening doors, slicing the pie, clearing corners, searching, scanning, hostage shot, shoot/no shoot, etc. Misses are unacceptable. Even the method of entry makes a difference: dynamic, covert, active shooter, etc.
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Old 12-02-2012, 2:55 PM
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Even the method of entry makes a difference: dynamic, covert, active shooter, etc.
Bob knows a little about that also. He was with the Sheriff's Dept. for 12 years.

Last edited by HighLander51; 12-02-2012 at 3:06 PM..
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Old 12-02-2012, 3:25 PM
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Bob knows a little about that also. He was with the Sheriff's Dept. for 12 years.
I know. That's why I used him for the aside. I took a class with him in March 2011.
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Old 12-02-2012, 4:14 PM
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I know. That's why I used him for the aside. I took a class with him in March 2011.
Get out of here, for real?
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Old 12-02-2012, 4:28 PM
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Get out of here, for real?
For real.

Training outfit: Dynamic Training Concepts
Course: Intermediate to Advanced Training for IDPA Competitors
Instructors: Bob Hostetter and Russ Shaver
Location: Prado Olympic Shooting Park, Chino
Date: Saturday, March 26, 2011 - 8:00am to 4:00pm
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Old 12-02-2012, 5:18 PM
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Yeah we shoot with them at Norco quite often. Both amazing shooters and know their stuff.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:55 PM
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USPSA is rally car racing while IDPA is scored parallel parking.
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