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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

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  #121  
Old 11-26-2012, 8:30 PM
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So I still need something to sell me on what those of you have up your sleeves after all that money spent thats going to make me jump on board. I do mean this with sincerity so I hope its coming out that way.
Sincerity seems far from it. In this incarnation or the previous one as Brian1979 you have continuously berated the so-called "tactical tards" (your words). You ask for advise and even when given are quick to fabricate an excuse to shoot it down quickly and inaccurately.

I'd much rather sell natural gas to the Russians than sell or convince you of anything.
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Last edited by ramzar; 11-26-2012 at 8:47 PM.. Reason: Typo
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  #122  
Old 11-26-2012, 8:41 PM
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Not even close to the fastest but in 3 years I have grown tremendously. I never said I was but I do stand firm in my opinion that speed and accuracy are the most important. The other stuff you can be taught and will for ever be changing based on the situation. Being fast and accurate can only be practiced one way and it will take a long time to achieve. It wont be achieved by taking $500 classes at even once a month.

I think you are failing at the challenge here. I can draw up a stage and have "C" and "A" class shooters run it to give a min/max time to run it in with a hit factor for points. This could be easily duplicated by you over video of the time and hits. We do this every week in competition.

So what can you give me thats a challenge to try based on what you have learned? Dont get all pissy just give me something real. I am not saying that I am the best and can do it better but I sure want to try and see for myself what I might be missing out on.

Ie the phoenix Tactical guys post vids all the time and I watch them. Not sure the guys name but he had 4 targets spaced 5, 7, 15, 25 yrds staggered in the field. From the holster he placed 1 good shot on each in under 3 seconds. Let me tell you I tried a dozen times and only got under 3 seconds twice but not with clean hits. I had 1 miss or not center mass etc. Now I highly doubt that was a cold run because it was hella fast. Who knows maybe it was but it was impressive. It wasnt a tactic and not something that could be taught but it is something that will take a long time to practice. Again the speed and accuracy motto.

Again I can't think of a thing to offer you. You have stated you are not even close to the fastest and this is in your only little corner of the world. You also state the other stuff can be learned but you have no need because your job may not call for any of those types of tactics, as you love to call them. You still persist after making both statements that your speed and accuracy will prevail.

Do you even understand how that sounds? I can only say if you feel you have all you will need to get you through whatever you may face, that is your call. You are the only one who can answer that question honestly. Best of luck to you.
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  #123  
Old 11-26-2012, 10:36 PM
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So I still need something to sell me on what those of you have up your sleeves after all that money spent thats going to make me jump on board. I do mean this with sincerity so I hope its coming out that way.
Why should anyone of us have to sell you on anything? Your SWAT buddy has offered you a no risk class from a reputable instructor. Take his offer. If you don't get anything out of it, get your money back from him.

Why keep hounding evreyone on this thread for more info? Go see for yourself and make a judgment afterwards. Then come back on the board and tell us "I told you so" or "it opened my eyes" or whatever.

Taking classes requires an open mind and a willingness to learn, if you don't have them then don't bother spending the dough or the time.
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  #124  
Old 11-27-2012, 5:14 AM
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I guess the only way is to cross my fingers and fork out the money. The only issue I will have now is trying to determine if they are going to force me to start at level 1. If thats the case then I am not going to spend $2k just to qualify for the advanced class.

Some of you think that I am not sincere about this and I assure you I really am. I am tired of all the fighting back and forth and honestly I need something to wrap my mind around to make further conclusions. In other words you guys have instilled some doubt into me thats making me actually consider your side of things. If you cant accept that then its fine but its also leading me down the path of returning to seriously considering these classes arent that effective for an average civilian who may have a ccw. If you dont have a ccw it really seems pointless.

My feeling is that with each class you may walk away with maybe a few ideas that make perfect sense and I have picked up on a few watching vids that some of you have posted. I equate this to my karate friend who tells me cool things I never thought of which make complete sense. On the other hand it stops there and now he needs to continuously train to become better and better to employ the fighting part. In my mind this is like being taught tactics then once you know them then practice to shoot faster and better.

The guy I disagree with most "ZT" actually is taking this serious and I do appreciate that. I am really trying here to listen to what you guys are saying and while I admit to being a skeptic part of me wants to be sure I am not being ignorant and missing out on something I dont know. I am thinking the difficulty here is that the only measurable skill is the shooting aspect of all this. The tactics part seems to be something learned' and can be in as little as a few explanations on how/why. After that you would want to practice what you learned and combine the shooting into it. There have been guys who shot our USPSA match that are instructors and tried to promote their school with handouts etc. I watched them shoot. They can shoot well and did so more cautiously and did the final check the world thing at the end. I suppose the environment wasnt conducive to what they "can" do but there wasnt anything amazing.

Clee- I wouldnt ever actually ask this guy to refund me a class fee. I am not a scumbag but I think his point was clear and he felt passionate about it. There are other local guys as well that people speak highly of but for now my money stays with me for supplies, guns, or bullets.

Last edited by whitey4311; 11-27-2012 at 5:25 AM..
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  #125  
Old 11-27-2012, 8:03 AM
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Here's sort of the first thing I'd like you to understand, Brian. I'm not ever talking about how to enable you to shoot faster and more accurately. Frankly, I think you have that part covered. So far as fundamental weapons mechanics and manipulations are concerned, competition works fine. Whatever subtle differences in comp vs. SD - regarding some particular technique - are really trivia in the grand scheme of things. If your only goal is to shoot faster/more accurately, please don't spend your money on any sort of training which involves anything else. There is no sense in beating your head against a wall.

What I'd like to you to at least consider is the possibility that learning to defend yourself with firearms involves more than just shooting really well. Notice that I did not say it was unimportant, only that more is involved.

As much as I dislike the term "tactics", that's the best word we have to describe all the other stuff besides just shooting well. I agree with you that none of us is likely to ever get involved in a situation requiring military-style team tactics, but you have to admit admit to yourself that you're never going to be in a situation anything like the stages you regularly shoot either. Both of those kinds of training/practice opportunities are still useful though, because they allow us to work on things - in principle - which might be valuable at some time. In the case of competition, learning to shoot well while moving from one position to the next is a valuable skill, and could be of great benefit in a self defense situation, right? Similarly, the kinds of other stuff you'll learn in self-defense or tactical classes might give you an advantage as well. Does that make sense?

I'd like you to consider whether or not shooting really well is the only thing of any value, or if it's just possible that there is more to the question in terms of learning to defend yourself. I like to see you flesh out your thinking more on this, so that I can understand where you are coming from better.
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Last edited by ZombieTactics; 11-27-2012 at 8:42 AM..
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  #126  
Old 11-27-2012, 8:48 AM
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I didn't think you're a scumbag or bottom feeder and I think your Swat buddy probably thinks the same. That is why he made that offer. I'd imagine he is pretty confident that you'd get something out of the class, thus the offer.

Training requires an open mind and a willingness to learn. At least you getting around to seeing that. As for is it worth your hard earned $200, $300, $500, I can't say I'm not you and no one can answer that but you. We don't know what you know and don't know. All I can say is read the course descriptions and google some AAR to see if its your cup of tea. Or just ask Ramzar because appartently there is no one he hasn't trained with.

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Originally Posted by whitey4311 View Post

Firing from inside a car isnt hard and doesnt change the fact that speed and accuracy will prevail. I have fired a gun from just about every position I can think of and that has been through competition.
Shooting inside a car is more complicated than you might think. Think about it, its confined and there is a lot of things that get in your way-seatbeat, steering wheel, pasenger etc. Since you CCW it may be in your interest to look into some of this type of training. I believe I've seen your vids and you carry about 4 o'clock, could be wrong. Try this in your garage (with a dummy or empty gun of course), act as if you are stopped at a light. So foot on the brake, seat beat on, and hand(s) on the wheel. Now imagin a threat and try and draw and present at various scenarios-bad guy front of car, bad guy at driverside window, passenger window, backseat driver side/pasenger side etc. You'll find that just trying to draw is problematic, presenting the gun is problematic shooting the gun can be problematic.

I think it will show you that its more than just "shooting" out of a car. Its far more difficult that you think. Even "shooting" within a car is more difficult that you think. Think driverside window and how little space you have to present the gun (this assumes the window is up of course). You most likely will not be able to extend you arm to shoot unless you learn toward the passenger side. Now do all those scenarios with pasengers (ie family) in the car it gets exponentially more difficult.

Like you said shooting is shooting but fighting is more than just shooting. In a fight you need to get to the point where you can make the fast and accurate draw and shot, and that sometimes, not always, involves "tactics."
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  #127  
Old 11-27-2012, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
Here's sort of the first thing I'd like you to understand, Brian. I'm not ever talking about how to enable you to shoot faster and more accurately. Frankly, I think you have that part covered. So far as fundamental weapons mechanics and manipulations are concerned, competition works fine. Whatever subtle differences in comp vs. SD - regarding some particular technique - are really trivia in the grand scheme of things. If your only goal is to shoot faster/more accurately, please don't spend your money on any sort of training which involves anything else. There is no sense in beating your head against a wall.

What I'd like to you to at least consider is the possibility that learning to defend yourself with firearms involves more than just shooting really well. Notice that I did not say it was unimportant, only that more is involved.

As much as I dislike the term "tactics", that's the best word we have to describe all the other stuff besides just shooting well. I agree with you that none of us is likely to ever get involved in a situation requiring military-style team tactics, but you have to admit admit to yourself that you're never going to be in a situation anything like the stages you regularly shoot either. Both of those kinds of training/practice opportunities are still useful though, because they allow us to work on things - in principle - which might be valuable at some time. In the case of competition, learning to shoot well while moving from one position to the next is a valuable skill, and could be of great benefit in a self defense situation, right? Similarly, the kinds of other stuff you'll learn in self-defense or tactical classes might give you an advantage as well. Does that make sense?

I'd like you to consider whether or not shooting really well is the only thing of any value, or if it's just possible that there is more to the question in terms of learning to defend yourself. I like to see you flesh out your thinking more on this, so that I can understand where you are coming from better.
This does make perfect sense. So now I guess I need to find a class geared toward CCW holders employing tactics and when to use them.

Basically I would need to accept I may take a few good ideas from the class and consider that info to compliment my current handgun abilities. I just don't know where to get the best instruction for money spent.
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  #128  
Old 11-27-2012, 10:38 AM
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My giant guess is that you'd probably benefit most from some kind of training focused on close-quarters, bad-breath distance stuff. I think you'd just get bored & frustrated with any "Level 1" class which covers drawing, presentation, etc.
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Last edited by ZombieTactics; 11-27-2012 at 10:44 AM..
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  #129  
Old 11-27-2012, 5:23 PM
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My giant guess is that you'd probably benefit most from some kind of training focused on close-quarters, bad-breath distance stuff. I think you'd just get bored & frustrated with any "Level 1" class which covers drawing, presentation, etc.
Yes, this would be good. I want to know CQ stuff and what to do. I might take a class if I can speak with the instructor and not have to start level 1. I love the descriptions that say its good for beginners and the experienced so they can go back to basics. I think that is a joke and clearly for financial gain. On the other hand they do need to make sure some newbie doesn't claim advanced status and get into something they can't do and be unsafe.

Last edited by whitey4311; 11-27-2012 at 5:29 PM..
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  #130  
Old 11-27-2012, 7:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
Here's sort of the first thing I'd like you to understand, Brian. I'm not ever talking about how to enable you to shoot faster and more accurately. Frankly, I think you have that part covered. So far as fundamental weapons mechanics and manipulations are concerned, competition works fine. Whatever subtle differences in comp vs. SD - regarding some particular technique - are really trivia in the grand scheme of things. If your only goal is to shoot faster/more accurately, please don't spend your money on any sort of training which involves anything else. There is no sense in beating your head against a wall.

What I'd like to you to at least consider is the possibility that learning to defend yourself with firearms involves more than just shooting really well. Notice that I did not say it was unimportant, only that more is involved.

As much as I dislike the term "tactics", that's the best word we have to describe all the other stuff besides just shooting well. I agree with you that none of us is likely to ever get involved in a situation requiring military-style team tactics, but you have to admit admit to yourself that you're never going to be in a situation anything like the stages you regularly shoot either. Both of those kinds of training/practice opportunities are still useful though, because they allow us to work on things - in principle - which might be valuable at some time. In the case of competition, learning to shoot well while moving from one position to the next is a valuable skill, and could be of great benefit in a self defense situation, right? Similarly, the kinds of other stuff you'll learn in self-defense or tactical classes might give you an advantage as well. Does that make sense?

I'd like you to consider whether or not shooting really well is the only thing of any value, or if it's just possible that there is more to the question in terms of learning to defend yourself. I like to see you flesh out your thinking more on this, so that I can understand where you are coming from better.
Indeed! This is exactly my thoughts.

If one wants to be a great shooter/fighter, wouldn't it make sense to be well versed in both paths and cross Train?

As ZT mentioned, learn from both , become proficient in both and take pieces of it and make it work for YOU, the shooter. Costa Ludus, a popular trainer also offers 2 training categories.

1. Gun/weapon manipulation (Draw, reload, target transition, mechanical skills)
2. Tactics and fighting mindset

Travis Haley has linked up with a well versed Practical Shooter, Ron Avery who is also a former LEO. That tells me, that Haley sees the value of competition and how every shooter can always improve their gun manipulation.

I believe a pure shooter can not focus on 1 facet only without the defensive elements. As well as a tactical specialist cannot only depend on tactics especially if the shooter has not improved their gun manipulation. Yes, I know and heard, one or the other can create bad habits etc. But as the Student, take the elements you see fit, no technique is set as Law.

A good friend of mind, finally joined me on IPSC/USPSA match last weekend and recorded the performance. He now sees training value and how the stages can help in defensive aspect. Swingers, drop turner.. Partial no shoot targets, shooting on the move, transitions.

I agree. 4-6 hours of time spent at a match for 2 min or less of shooting. If you want to calculate it that way.. I can't stop you, you are correct. If you dig deeper into it, and examine the problems given at hand and discover the solutions, you will know what I mean.

Again, shooters great thread, healthy discussion.

The Tread title should be:

Reality check: Tactical & competition training and mindset.

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  #131  
Old 11-28-2012, 11:05 AM
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A potentially great combination of both technical and tactical advanced handgun training is coming up:
Rob Leatham & Larry Vickers 3-Day Advanced Handgun - April 12-14, 2013 - Phoenix, AZ
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  #132  
Old 12-03-2012, 3:23 PM
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Whitey,

I have attended some classes too before and I understand what you meant when you said something to the line of 'too basic'. What can help you though is to get a good recommendation from a good instructor that you are such and such that he/she is recommending you for more advanced class.

I took Louie Awerbach's beginners class few years ago and I found it very similar to Mike Millers/ Tactical Intervention pistol class. I talk to Rick at Reeds and he informed me that if I have had told them about my prior class to Mike, they could've waived me the beginners class and had me take Loius' more advance classes.

Hope this helps.

EDIT: Different instructors have different views. and still, I learned a lot from both of them. Louie's classes are little pricey but I get to pick his brain out when he is teaching. Such a great teacher.

Last edited by qtrxist; 12-03-2012 at 3:27 PM..
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  #133  
Old 12-03-2012, 3:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
A potentially great combination of both technical and tactical advanced handgun training is coming up:
Rob Leatham & Larry Vickers 3-Day Advanced Handgun - April 12-14, 2013 - Phoenix, AZ
WOW!!! Talk about a great learning opportunity. I', signing up for these class. Thank you Ram, see you in AZ
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