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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

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  #81  
Old 11-25-2012, 8:53 PM
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Originally Posted by whitey4311 View Post
See, that would really turn me off and anger me I spent money to talk about shooting. I am so unsure as to what to do but if someone is getting $500 I had better be leaving with something learned and alot if it.
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A great upcoming challenging class will be Dave "Super Dave" Harrington 2-Day Combatspeed Handgun on Dec 15-16, 2012 (Burro Canyon Shooting Park). You get to shoot from many positions, night shoot on Saturday and 2,000+ rounds over 2 days.
I think the Dave Harrington pistol class is right up your alley.

2 days with a famous SF instructor whose 360 pistol drills are used by others including Chris Costa. The 2 days includes 21 hours, 2,500 rounds (bring your own ammo), night shoot, concealed carry shoot, etc. for $450. Dave also shoots competitively for the Panteao Shooting Team and his teammates are Bob Vogel and Tom Yost.
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Last edited by ramzar; 11-25-2012 at 9:37 PM..
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  #82  
Old 11-26-2012, 9:42 AM
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And some of these classes charge $500 for what can be practiced for $20(at my club's matches). Id rather shoot with guys who can show me what they can do rather than hear someone's theories for half the day. I can get better shooting lessons by just squadding up with a master class shooter.
Well, I think the issue here is we are directly comparing a two day (16-20 hour) class to a one day match which is apples and oranges. One cannot compare the two as the purposes of both are totally different.

I think of it this way:
  • In a class you will actually get repetition, personal coaching, constructive criticism from both fellow student and instructor.
  • Very important is actual trigger of time of approximately 10 hours (that's 600 minutes!!!) over the two day compared to about only 2 minutes in a day's match.
  • In a match, you are mostly waiting your turn and actual trigger time for about 2 minutes total for all 6 stages; so based purely on actual trigger time, you essentially pay $0.75/minute in a class vs. $17.50/minute in a match. So even though lecture and breaks take a total of 10 hours during a class, you do get a lot more value out of it based solely on trigger time not to mention the mentoring and coaching.
  • Bottom line is, the value per minute in a class vastly outweighs the value per minute in competition.
Yes, you can watch others and other may be kind enough to give you a few pointers at a match but most everyone is truly just there to shoot and they could care less how bad your technique is. Especially after two stages and waiting in line for other squads to finish. People tend to get tired and frankly won't care how you are doing as they just want to shoot.

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Originally Posted by whitey4311 View Post
Most the classes duplicate common drills shot in classifiers. Look up some of the reviews and you will see.

How much practice can you afford at $200-$500 just or the entry fees minus ammo costs? At some point you will have to practice a lot more and even if you can afford 1 class a month that's not enough.
Some of the drills in classes are indeed duplicate of qualifiers or some modification thereof but the difference is you don't stand in line once, do the drill, get scored and be done with it. In a class you run it multiple times, each time getting coaching and improving as you get constructive criticisms from your fellow students and instructors.

I think of this like golf, you can practice by yourself all the time and maybe even do tournaments and take video yourself. But you actually get more value for your time and money if you take lessons from good instructors. You basically improve so much quicker than the DIY method.

Just as an example: I was a NRG this weekend and guy in a grey shirt running concealed (Brian1979? squaded with higlander and two ladies) shoot stage 1 (steel) and I think he did OK. Although, I can say that based on that performance, this guy has good potential and may get much better if he took the right class for his needs with the right instructor.

I do agree with you that one needs to take what they learned from the class and continue to practice themselves. And, IMHO, you can get more value if you practiced what you learned in classes with a shooting buddy then try your skills in competition.

Here are my critiques regarding USPSA/IPSC:
  • It takes about 4-6 hours of your day for very little (2 minutes) of actual trigger time which to me is too much sitting around.
  • I sometimes had issues with having to stay within the yellow lines (IPSC) and inability to actually use cover which is essentially there but used to obscure your view of the target. I found myself getting procedurals for getting close to cover and pieing out: oops, I stepped outside the yellow brick road ;-). NBD, as I was just there to have fun anyways but I'm just saying that the yellow tape boundary rule is kinda silly.
  • I didn't see much shooting on the move, most everyone moved, stopped and shot. I tried to do as much shooting on the move as I could but found it difficult due to all the restrictions including the yellow line and obstructed view of the targets.

Anyway, I still had fun but I didn't get as much value for a days’ worth of my time shooting a match. IMHO, from a pure training perspective, my time would have been better spent either taking a one day class or applying what I learned in classes practicing with a shooting buddy, i.e., more trigger time which produces more improvement for the time spent.

Overall, I'll continue to compete just for the fun of it and to catch up with my old friends and meet new ones. But competition in no way, is the be all end all. You will learn to shoot faster but could develop not so desired shooting habits over time .

In summary, best bet for continued improvement is to take classes from top instructors, practice what you learned and compete once in a while.
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Last edited by HK35; 11-26-2012 at 3:13 PM..
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  #83  
Old 11-26-2012, 10:16 AM
CalTeacher CalTeacher is offline
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Originally Posted by HK35 View Post
Well, I think the issue here is we are directly comparing a two day (16-20 hour) class to a one day match which is apples and oranges. One cannot compare the two as the purposes of both are totally different.
I think of it this way:
  • In a class you will actually get repetition, personal coaching, constructive criticism from both fellow student and instructor, and very important is actual trigger of time of approximately 10 hours (600 minutes) over the two days.
  • In a match, you are mostly waiting your turn and actual trigger time for about2 minutes total for all 6 stages; so based purely on actual trigger time, you essentially pay $0.75/minute in a class vs. $17.50/minute in a match. So even though lecture and breaks take a total of 10 hours during a class, you do get a lot more value out of it based solely on trigger time not to mention the mentoring and coaching.
  • Bottom line is, the value per minute in a class vastly outweighs the value per minute in competition.
Yes, you can watch others and other may be kind enough to give you a few pointers at a match but most everyone is truly just there to shoot and they could care less how bad your technique is. Especially after two stages and waiting in line for other squads to finish. People tend to get tired and frankly won't care how you are doing as they just want to shoot.



Some of the drills in classes are indeed duplicate of qualifiers or some modification thereof but the difference is you don't stand in line once, do the drill, get scored and be done with it. In a class you run it multiple times, each time getting coaching and improving as you get constructive criticisms from your fellow students and instructors.

I think of this like golf, you can practice by yourself all the time and maybe even do tournaments and take video yourself. But you actually get more value for your time and money if you take lessons from good instructors. You basically improve so much quicker than the DIY method.

Just as an example: I was a NRG this weekend and guy in a grey shirt running concealed (Brian1979? squaded with higlander and two ladies) shoot stage 1 (steel) and I think he did OK. Although, I can say that based on that performance, this guy has good potential and may get much better if he took the right class for his needs with the right instructor.

I do agree with you that one needs to take what they learned from the class and continue to practice themselves. And, IMHO, you can get more value if you practiced what you learned in classes with a shooting buddy then try your skills in competition.

Here are my critiques regarding IPSC:
  • It takes about 4-6 hours of your day for very little (2 minutes) of actual trigger time which to me is too much sitting around.
  • I sometimes had issues with having to stay within the yellow lines (IPSC) and inability to actually use cover which is essentially there but used to obscure your view of the target. I found myself getting procedurals for getting close to cover and pieing out: oops, I stepped outside the yellow brick road ;-). NBD, as I was just there to have fun anyways but I'm just saying that the yellow tape boundary rule is kinda silly.
  • I didn't see much shooting on the move, most everyone moved, stopped and shot. I tried to do as much shooting on the move as I could but found it difficult due to all the restrictions including the yellow line and obstructed view of the targets.

Anyway, I still had fun but I didn't get as much value for a days’ worth of my time shooting a match. IMHO, from a pure training perspective, my time would have been better spent either taking a one day class or applying what I learned in classes practicing with a shooting buddy, i.e., more trigger time which produces more improvement for the time spent.

Overall, I'll continue to compete just for the fun of it and to catch up with my old friends and meet new ones. But competition in no way, is the be all end all. You will learn to shoot faster but could develop not so desired shooting habits over time .

In summary, best bet for continued improvement is to take classes from top instructors, practice what you learned and compete once in a while.
I can't speak to the shooters you compete with, but I've yet to meet someone who wasn't willing to help someone else out. I can pretty much guarantee that the guys I shoot with will answer questions that I have, and even show me some useful tips. In fact, a lot of us stay afterwards and shoot steel or re-run some of the stages for practice. YMMV. I will also add that our matches only run from about 9am to 1pm at the latest. For $20 and 4 hours of time, that's not much of a cost for 200-250 rounds and the experience of shooting with accomplished shooters.

In regards to the whole procedural/yellow line thing, treat those yellow lines as though they were walls, or other obstacles that would prevent you from crossing them.

I will say that the biggest criticism I have of this debate over which type of shooting prepares one for a self defense scenario, is that regardless of whether you shoot competition or take tactical classes, you're being taught to move towards your target and engage...sometimes while standing directly in front of the target! This occurs in competition and in nearly every video I've ever seen from a tactical class. In a self-defense scenario, proper training would involve 1. avoidance of such scenarios, 2. fleeing such scenarios, and 3. drawing your weapon only when options 1 and 2 have been exhausted. But 1 and 2 can be learned in pretty short order, and without paying exorbitant fees. I have no doubt that there are some great instructors that can help with option 3, but so does competition...a lot.
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  #84  
Old 11-26-2012, 10:21 AM
whitey4311 whitey4311 is offline
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Originally Posted by HK35 View Post
Well, I think the issue here is we are directly comparing a two day (16-20 hour) class to a one day match which is apples and oranges. One cannot compare the two as the purposes of both are totally different.
I think of it this way:
  • In a class you will actually get repetition, personal coaching, constructive criticism from both fellow student and instructor, and very important is actual trigger of time of approximately 10 hours (600 minutes) over the two days.
  • In a match, you are mostly waiting your turn and actual trigger time for about2 minutes total for all 6 stages; so based purely on actual trigger time, you essentially pay $0.75/minute in a class vs. $17.50/minute in a match. So even though lecture and breaks take a total of 10 hours during a class, you do get a lot more value out of it based solely on trigger time not to mention the mentoring and coaching.
  • Bottom line is, the value per minute in a class vastly outweighs the value per minute in competition.
Yes, you can watch others and other may be kind enough to give you a few pointers at a match but most everyone is truly just there to shoot and they could care less how bad your technique is. Especially after two stages and waiting in line for other squads to finish. People tend to get tired and frankly won't care how you are doing as they just want to shoot.



Some of the drills in classes are indeed duplicate of qualifiers or some modification thereof but the difference is you don't stand in line once, do the drill, get scored and be done with it. In a class you run it multiple times, each time getting coaching and improving as you get constructive criticisms from your fellow students and instructors.

I think of this like golf, you can practice by yourself all the time and maybe even do tournaments and take video yourself. But you actually get more value for your time and money if you take lessons from good instructors. You basically improve so much quicker than the DIY method.

Just as an example: I was a NRG this weekend and guy in a grey shirt running concealed (Brian1979? squaded with higlander and two ladies) shoot stage 1 (steel) and I think he did OK. Although, I can say that based on that performance, this guy has good potential and may get much better if he took the right class for his needs with the right instructor.

I do agree with you that one needs to take what they learned from the class and continue to practice themselves. And, IMHO, you can get more value if you practiced what you learned in classes with a shooting buddy then try your skills in competition.

Here are my critiques regarding IPSC:
  • It takes about 4-6 hours of your day for very little (2 minutes) of actual trigger time which to me is too much sitting around.
  • I sometimes had issues with having to stay within the yellow lines (IPSC) and inability to actually use cover which is essentially there but used to obscure your view of the target. I found myself getting procedurals for getting close to cover and pieing out: oops, I stepped outside the yellow brick road ;-). NBD, as I was just there to have fun anyways but I'm just saying that the yellow tape boundary rule is kinda silly.
  • I didn't see much shooting on the move, most everyone moved, stopped and shot. I tried to do as much shooting on the move as I could but found it difficult due to all the restrictions including the yellow line and obstructed view of the targets.

Anyway, I still had fun but I didn't get as much value for a days’ worth of my time shooting a match. IMHO, from a pure training perspective, my time would have been better spent either taking a one day class or applying what I learned in classes practicing with a shooting buddy, i.e., more trigger time which produces more improvement for the time spent.

Overall, I'll continue to compete just for the fun of it and to catch up with my old friends and meet new ones. But competition in no way, is the be all end all. You will learn to shoot faster but could develop not so desired shooting habits over time .

In summary, best bet for continued improvement is to take classes from top instructors, practice what you learned and compete once in a while.
The all steel stage is very hard. You should have come and said hi or better yet squashed with us. Did you shoot or just watch that day?

If you thought I did just "ok" I would love to see you shoot.
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  #85  
Old 11-26-2012, 10:39 AM
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The all steel stage is very hard. You should have come and said hi or better yet squashed with us. Did you shoot or just watch that day?

If you thought I did just "ok" I would love to see you shoot.
Yes, I shot it. I actually really liked the all steel stage as it gives you instant feedback on your speed and accuracy. Although my nine was having issues with taking down the larger poppers and one plate wouldn't budge. I guess I'll have to get a .45 for next time.

I also liked Stage 4 as you had turning target engagement and then shooting on the move to engage two targets.

I was actually squaded with Jojo for the classifier then I moved over to my buddy's squad. I just guessed on Highlander51 (the hat) and you (concealed draw) as I've never met you both but I wil come say hi when I shoot NRG next.

Hahaha, I meant that comment in a constructive way :-). I looked through the vids and no one took a vid of me shooting. Only vid from our squad was of the guy on the wheelchair and newbie who refused to drop his mag during reload... For the record, I am not claiming I am good, I'm a new to shooting so I'm just OK myself but willing to learn. A couple of my buddies shooting open are good (e.g., less than 10 seconds per set on classifier; I did 10.5 second sets), Jojo is really good; that's my basis of assessment.
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Last edited by HK35; 11-26-2012 at 11:07 AM..
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  #86  
Old 11-26-2012, 10:43 AM
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For $20 and 4 hours of time, that's not much of a cost for 200-250 rounds and the experience of shooting with accomplished shooters.
How much actual total trigger time are you getting in that 4 hour window; i.e., how long are the stages?

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Originally Posted by CalTeacher View Post
In regards to the whole procedural/yellow line thing, treat those yellow lines as though they were walls, or other obstacles that would prevent you from crossing them.

I will say that the biggest criticism I have of this debate over which type of shooting prepares one for a self defense scenario, is that regardless of whether you shoot competition or take tactical classes, you're being taught to move towards your target and engage...sometimes while standing directly in front of the target! This occurs in competition and in nearly every video I've ever seen from a tactical class. In a self-defense scenario, proper training would involve 1. avoidance of such scenarios, 2. fleeing such scenarios, and 3. drawing your weapon only when options 1 and 2 have been exhausted. But 1 and 2 can be learned in pretty short order, and without paying exorbitant fees. I have no doubt that there are some great instructors that can help with option 3, but so does competition...a lot.
Um, no, one cannot treat the yellow line as walls as there are already walls set-up all over and drums obscuring the view of certain targets.

The bolded sentences (pre-conceived notions) are actually not true, at least for the classes I have taken. Did you read the Hackathorn AARs? Movement is actually not just forward but backwards, sideways, around obstacles and around people. Also what to do when a BG pulls a gun on you at arms length, etc... many things to learn if you keep an open mind.
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Last edited by HK35; 11-26-2012 at 12:18 PM..
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  #87  
Old 11-26-2012, 11:49 AM
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... I will say that the biggest criticism I have of this debate over which type of shooting prepares one for a self defense scenario, is that regardless of whether you shoot competition or take tactical classes, you're being taught to move towards your target and engage...sometimes while standing directly in front of the target! This occurs in competition and in nearly every video I've ever seen from a tactical class. ...
I can't speak to competition, as I only know what I see on video. Regarding training, your statement does not really line up with my experience. It's true that some very basic classes do exactly as you have described, most self-defense oriented classes don't. The idea of getting some combination of distance, cover and concealment is a strong thread running through most of them I've taken. This is doubly the case with Force-on-Force classes and scenarios.


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Originally Posted by CalTeacher View Post
In a self-defense scenario, proper training would involve 1. avoidance of such scenarios, 2. fleeing such scenarios, and 3. drawing your weapon only when options 1 and 2 have been exhausted. But 1 and 2 can be learned in pretty short order, and without paying exorbitant fees. I have no doubt that there are some great instructors that can help with option 3, but so does competition...a lot.
Here's a rough paraphrase/mashup of what I have been taught:
  1. Avoidance, deterrence and evasion (includes 'run away if you can')
  2. MOVE! Do so fast enough so as to not get shot/stabbed/beaten.
  3. Distance favors the trained ... so get some if possible.
  4. Concealment is nice, cover is even better ... get some if you can.
  5. Using concealment is not obvious or common sense, which is why people usually end up doing it "like in the movies" ... which will get you killed.
  6. Get your hits, but never at the expense of getting hit. It's a not a contest to see who shoots who first, getting shot second can still get you killed.
  7. 0-6 feet requires a different set of skills than 6-21 or +21 feet.

I'm hoping that #1 is obvious or easily learned. The application of #2 through #6 can benefit from instruction, and it doesn't look anything like what I've seen in competition videos. A lot of times people want to argue about this until they run a few FoF scenarios. After you "shoot a cop", "shoot him 5 times while he shoots you 4 times", find out that your live opponent is a LOT harder to hit than any paper target, discover that not everything is a shooting test, etc. ... the lights come on a bit. The hitting a moving target bit can certainly benefit greatly from competition.
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:02 PM
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I will say that the biggest criticism I have of this debate over which type of shooting prepares one for a self defense scenario, is that regardless of whether you shoot competition or take tactical classes, you're being taught to move towards your target and engage...sometimes while standing directly in front of the target! This occurs in competition and in nearly every video I've ever seen from a tactical class. In a self-defense scenario, proper training would involve 1. avoidance of such scenarios, 2. fleeing such scenarios, and 3. drawing your weapon only when options 1 and 2 have been exhausted. But 1 and 2 can be learned in pretty short order, and without paying exorbitant fees. I have no doubt that there are some great instructors that can help with option 3, but so does competition...a lot.
Gross oversimplification.

Tidbits of videos on YouTube or full videos from say Panteao Productions of tactical / technical classes is not a substitute for attending an actual class in person with full participation as a student. You personally don’t seem to have a number of such classes under your belt to jump to conclusions.
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:47 PM
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I can't speak to competition, as I only know what I see on video. Regarding training, your statement does not really line up with my experience. It's true that some very basic classes do exactly as you have described, most self-defense oriented classes don't. The idea of getting some combination of distance, cover and concealment is a strong thread running through most of them I've taken. This is doubly the case with Force-on-Force classes and scenarios.




Here's a rough paraphrase/mashup of what I have been taught:
  1. Avoidance, deterrence and evasion (includes 'run away if you can')
  2. MOVE! Do so fast enough so as to not get shot/stabbed/beaten.
  3. Distance favors the trained ... so get some if possible.
  4. Concealment is nice, cover is even better ... get some if you can.
  5. Using concealment is not obvious or common sense, which is why people usually end up doing it "like in the movies" ... which will get you killed.
  6. Get your hits, but never at the expense of getting hit. It's a not a contest to see who shoots who first, getting shot second can still get you killed.
  7. 0-6 feet requires a different set of skills than 6-21 or +21 feet.

I'm hoping that #1 is obvious or easily learned. The application of #2 through #6 can benefit from instruction, and it doesn't look anything like what I've seen in competition videos. A lot of times people want to argue about this until they run a few FoF scenarios. After you "shoot a cop", "shoot him 5 times while he shoots you 4 times", find out that your live opponent is a LOT harder to hit than any paper target, discover that not everything is a shooting test, etc. ... the lights come on a bit. The hitting a moving target bit can certainly benefit greatly from competition.
I get what you're saying. I've said this before. What I'm saying is that you're not shooting at live opponents either at your classes. You're doing a lot of drills and practicing a lot of skill sets that you learn through competition and training for competition. I understand that self defense situations require some different tactics than shooting a USPSA course of fire. Most of these tactics ARE common sense, or at least should be to anyone with a pulse. Avoid conflict, flee, and if you have to draw your weapon, shoot your opponent whilst avoiding getting shot. This isn't anything that I need to pay $500 for. I'm not opposed to the type of training you're doing, I just don't understand why it would cost so much.
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:52 PM
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How much actual total trigger time are you getting in that 4 hour window; i.e., how long are the stages?



Um, no, one cannot treat the yellow line as walls as there are already walls set-up all over and drums obscuring the view of certain targets.

The bolded sentences (pre-conceived notions) are actually not true, at least for the classes I have taken. Did you read the Hackathorn AARs? Movement is actually not just forward but backwards, sideways, around obstacles and around people. Also what to do when a BG pulls a gun on you at arms length, etc... many things to learn if you keep an open mind.
Yes, one can treat the yellow lines like walls, or other obstacles that block your movement...as I said before. Why couldn't you do that?

I did read the thread about the Hackathorn class. It sounded like a good class. It also involved drills where you move forward to engage your target from distances out to 10 yards. It also involved a lot of drills that come straight from competition. Most of the shooting drills you guys did is what you do in competition...not all, but most. I just don't think the cost is worth it. That simple.

I will say that the night shooting is something I'd be interested in. But then again, our club has multiple night competitions every year for only $20 per match.
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:54 PM
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...I just don't understand why it would cost so much.
It because you are oversimplifying what takes place and what one can learn in a class. We've been trying to explain it to you over and over but at this point you're going to have to see for yourself and take a class.

Since you mentioned watching youtube, let's try this:



In general, it's a good overview of what one can expect in a class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalTeacher View Post
Yes, one can treat the yellow lines like walls, or other obstacles that block your movement...as I said before. Why couldn't you do that?
Because, when the buzzer goes off, I tend to rely on my instincts and training to engage the targets; no imaginary lines. If I see cover/concealment, I instinctively go toward it and use it.

Furthermore, tell me this: how can you treat the yellow tape as a wall when you can shoot through it. You know if it was a wall, I wouldn't be able to engage a lot of the targets; yes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalTeacher View Post
I did read the thread about the Hackathorn class. It sounded like a good class. It also involved drills where you move forward to engage your target from distances out to 10 yards. It also involved a lot of drills that come straight from competition. Most of the shooting drills you guys did is what you do in competition...not all, but most. I just don't think the cost is worth it. That simple.
That's because Ken came up with a lot of drills used in competition.

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I will say that the night shooting is something I'd be interested in. But then again, our club has multiple night competitions every year for only $20 per match.
Let me ask again: exactly how much actual trigger time (seconds or minutes) does $20 buy you?

BTW, I've shot low light competitions and I didn't learn much from it until I took a class that included a night shoot. Then I applied what I learned in class at the next night shoot competition and my scores improved.
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Last edited by HK35; 11-26-2012 at 1:21 PM..
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Old 11-26-2012, 1:25 PM
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... What I'm saying is that you're not shooting at live opponents either at your classes. ...
Actually, in Fof classes you are often shooting at (sometimes multiple) live opponents, with live "friendlies" interspersed in the scenarios as well. Some classes use airsoft guns, which can sting quite a bit. Glock 17T trainers are "real guns" which fire a marker round ... hurts like hell when you get hit. A lot of theory goes out the window when it "gets real".

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... You're doing a lot of drills and practicing a lot of skill sets that you learn through competition and training for competition. ...
And a lot which aren't/can't be learned through competition.

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... I understand that self defense situations require some different tactics than shooting a USPSA course of fire. Most of these tactics ARE common sense, or at least should be to anyone with a pulse. ...
This idea that "it's all common sense" dies pretty quickly when you've done some FoF.

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Avoid conflict, flee, and if you have to draw your weapon, shoot your opponent whilst avoiding getting shot. This isn't anything that I need to pay $500 for. I'm not opposed to the type of training you're doing, I just don't understand why it would cost so much.
There really is a lot more to the "not getting shot" part than you'd imagine. There is also a lot to be learned in the way of figuring out if you actually have "an opponent" or if you are reading the situation right. People "shoot cops" all the time in FoF classes ... obvious cops wearing badges on their belt line or around their neck on a lanyard. It's also common for people to go to guns too quickly in situations which don't require any shooting to "solve". With no malice intended, these kinds of mistakes are more common with people who do a lot of competition ... there seems to be a predisposition towards drawing and shooting quickly/accurately above all other - sometimes "common sense" - solutions.

I don't know what to say about the class fees. It's either something you can afford or not. There are good classes for less than half that amount, BTW ... maybe that takes some of the sting out of it. I'd also note that there seems to be a strong focus on this concern among a lot of competition shooters, and a suggestion that you can "get the same thing" just by doing a fair amount of competition. That's honesty not really true, which I think is borne out by people like Ramzar who regularly compete and take classes. I've often thought that something like an "FoF league" or club approach might make this kind of thing more attractive cost-wise ... who knows?
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Old 11-26-2012, 1:26 PM
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Hk35:

Hook up with us next time. Jojo's squad is where new comers need to start but he will let you roll with us. On a serious level I want more info about what you do so I can have a more clear understanding coming from someone involved in both classes and competition.
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Old 11-26-2012, 1:26 PM
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.....oops

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Old 11-26-2012, 1:35 PM
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It because you are oversimplifying what takes place and what one can learn in a class. We've been trying to explain it to you over and over but at this point you're going to have to see for yourself and take a class.

Since you mentioned watching youtube, let's try this:



In general, it's a good overview of what one can expect in a class.


Because, when the buzzer goes off, I tend to rely on my instincts and training to engage the targets; no imaginary lines. If I see cover/concealment, I instinctively go toward it and use it.

Furthermore, tell me this: how can you treat the yellow tape as a wall when you can shoot through it. You know if it was a wall, I wouldn't be able to engage a lot of the targets; yes?

That's because Ken came up with a lot of drills used in competition.

Let me ask again: exactly how much actual trigger time (seconds or minutes) does $20 buy you?

BTW, I've shot low light competitions and I didn't learn much from it until I took a class that included a night shoot. Then I applied what I learned in class at the next night shoot competition and my scores improved.
Apparently you don't like to read what I have typed twice already. Treat the yellow lines as if they are a wall, or SOME OTHER OBSTACLE THAT RESTRICTS YOUR MOVEMENT." This isn't very difficult to comprehend. Just like you pretend to be facing a threat (paper target) in one of your classes, pretend to be constrained by obstacles represented by the yellow line.

"That's because Ken came up with a lot of drills used in competition."
So then you're acknowledging that a lot of what you do is done in competition? Now we're getting somewhere.

How much shooting time does $20 buy? It depends on how fast you can shoot. Some stages are 35-45 seconds, others 5-10. It only takes a finite amount of time to pull a trigger. Are you measuring trigger time by the amount of time you spend with a gun in your hand, or how long you spend actually pulling the trigger?
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Old 11-26-2012, 1:44 PM
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How about this: we just all agree to do what we like, and realize the limitations of what we're doing. See, now we're all happy and agree that some training is better than none.
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Old 11-26-2012, 1:54 PM
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"That's because Ken came up with a lot of drills used in competition."
So then you're acknowledging that a lot of what you do is done in competition? Now we're getting somewhere
No, I did not say not ackowledged that. What I did ackowledge is that competition and classes should not really be compared (albeit being complementary) as they are essentially apples and oranges and I also acknowledged that competition in no way, is the be all end all. You will learn to shoot faster by competing but could develop not so desired shooting habits over time without good coaching.

So, again, IMHO, best bet for continued improvement is to take classes from top instructors, practice what you learned and compete once in a while.
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How much shooting time does $20 buy? It depends on how fast you can shoot. Some stages are 35-45 seconds, others 5-10. It only takes a finite amount of time to pull a trigger. Are you measuring trigger time by the amount of time you spend with a gun in your hand, or how long you spend actually pulling the trigger?
How long you spend actually pulling the trigger and engaging targets. You will see that actual trigger time in competition is vastly out numbered in a class, e.g. 2-5 minutes in a match vs. 600 minutes in a class. Do the math. It'll take a lot of matches and match fees to match trigger time in a class. But then again, we should not be comparing match to a class (apples & oranges).

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How about this: we just all agree to do what we like, and realize the limitations of what we're doing. See, now we're all happy and agree that some training is better than none.
Hahaha, I agree. You did ask an honest question which we tried to address but then resisted all our explainations on why one can benefit from Formal Training in addition to competing.
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Old 11-26-2012, 2:00 PM
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Make no mistake about it that competitive shooting has been and continues to be a major contributor and innovator in the advancement of technical shooting as well as the introduction of small arms technology.

It's a cycle from technical to tactical and back and forth with each contributing to becoming whole.
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Old 11-26-2012, 2:08 PM
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Make no mistake about it that competitive shooting has been and continues to be a major contributor and innovator in the advancement of technical shooting as well as the introduction of small arms technology.

It's a cycle from technical to tactical and back and forth with each contributing to becoming whole.
Good point, ramzar! We can all learn from each other so long as we keep an open mind.

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Hk35:Hook up with us next time. Jojo's squad is where new comers need to start but he will let you roll with us. On a serious level I want more info about what you do so I can have a more clear understanding coming from someone involved in both classes and competition.
I know but I wanted to see Jojo in action and try go as fast with a production gun. It was like racing a prius vs. ferrari!!! I do have a group/squad that I shoot with but I will say hello next time.

Not sure about what you want to know about what I do but as it relates to shooting, I consider myself a rookie with a whole lot to learn.
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Old 11-26-2012, 2:13 PM
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No, I did not say not ackowledged that. What I did ackowledge is that competition and classes should not really be compared (albeit being complementary) as they are essentially apples and oranges and I also acknowledged that competition in no way, is the be all end all. You will learn to shoot faster by competing but could develop not so desired shooting habits over time without good coaching.

So, again, IMHO, best bet for continued improvement is to take classes from top instructors, practice what you learned and compete once in a while.

How long you spend actually pulling the trigger and engaging targets. You will see that actual trigger time in competition is vastly out numbered in a class, e.g. 2-5 minutes in a match vs. 600 minutes in a class. Do the math. It'll take a lot of matches and match fees to match trigger time in a class. But then again, we should not be comparing match to a class (apples & oranges).


Hahaha, I agree. You did ask an honset question which we tried to address but then resisted all our explainations on why one can benefit from Formal Training in addition to competing.



I know but I wanted to see Jojo in action and try go as fast with a production gun. It was like racing a prius vs. ferrari!!! I do have a group/squad that I shoot with but I will say hello next time.

Not sure about what you want to know about what I do but as it relates to shooting, I consider myself a rookie with a whole lot to learn.
Honestly, I think this is a pointless argument because in the end, I think we agree on a lot of points, but disagree on how to best implement them.

I'm not resisting your explanations. I'm acknowledging them and disagreeing with them. That's all.
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Old 11-26-2012, 2:21 PM
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The biggest key to firearms training and practice is frequency. Within that different constraints of time and money come into play. Personally, any and all modes of training in increasing order of relevancy are: dry practice (including draws and timer), square range, static competition, dynamic competition, dynamic live fire range (allows draws, etc.), technical classes and tactical classes. Your ordering may vary.
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Old 11-26-2012, 2:21 PM
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Competition equipment has no place in the tactical world...that stuff will get you killed.
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Old 11-26-2012, 2:23 PM
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Competition equipment has no place in the tactical world...that stuff will get you killed.
Yeah, a stock Glock 17, holster, etc., will get you killed every time.
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Old 11-26-2012, 2:50 PM
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Honestly, I think this is a pointless argument because in the end, I think we agree on a lot of points...
I guess, it's like roadie vs. mountainbikers and techies vs. recreational divers. The subcultures are complementary to each other and each group tends to learn from the other but each thinks they are superior to the other. I have always cross-trained so I get the best of all worlds!

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The biggest key to firearms training and practice is frequency. Within that different constraints of time and money come into play. Personally, any and all modes of training in order of relevance are: ...
I agree with your list. Here it is in order of priority:
  1. technical classes and tactical classes,
  2. dynamic live fire range (allows draws, etc.),
  3. dynamic competition,
  4. static competition,
  5. square range,
  6. dry practice (including draws and timer).
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Old 11-26-2012, 2:56 PM
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The biggest key to firearms training and practice is frequency. Within that different constraints of time and money come into play. Personally, any and all modes of training in increasing order of relevancy are: dry practice (including draws and timer), square range, static competition, dynamic competition, dynamic live fire range (allows draws, etc.), technical classes and tactical classes. Your ordering may vary.
Agreed
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Old 11-26-2012, 2:58 PM
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Here it is in order of priority:
  1. technical classes and tactical classes,
  2. dynamic live fire range (allows draws, etc.),
  3. dynamic competition,
  4. static competition,
  5. square range,
  6. dry practice (including draws and timer).
Same.

Within the technical and tactical classes my priority changes based on the weapon system and the current proficiency.

I must also add that frequency without recency is a bit moot.
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Old 11-26-2012, 6:57 PM
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acct is jacked up again....... sorry

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Old 11-26-2012, 6:58 PM
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Can I propose a possible solution to all this?

For the class takers can you please give us competition shooters something that you can do which you learned in class that will challenge us? I am not sure what to even ask for but I would imagine a drill of some sort or a position to shoot from at some distance etc. Please dont say "cover". In all practical purposes there is no guarantee that it will be available so I would then rely on my speed, draw, accuracy to come out ahead. I want something that will make me think twice but I havent seen any video from the trainers on this site that would make me pull out my wallet and pay to learn. I am tempted to pay someone to see for myself what you guys are talking about but I just dont get it. I hear some cool things here and there but nothing that I think someone should be making $500 a student on.

I am still having trouble understanding what you guys can possibly do that we cant. I still consider this all to be shooting when its said and done. There can only be positions or drills that challenge the basics more. I would like some sort of challenge that I can go duplicate, video, and report back my findings. Basically I am asking you guys to sell me on the training idea so how ever you can convey this please do so.

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Old 11-26-2012, 7:09 PM
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Which is better. Tactical forum typing or Competition forum typing?
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Old 11-26-2012, 7:50 PM
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Which is better. Tactical forum typing or Competition forum typing?
Neither, but a speed typing test based upon random words, containing no actual sentences, is the way to determine who is the best writer. It's also the best way to learn how to write. Anyone saying anything different isn't a real typist.
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Old 11-26-2012, 7:56 PM
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Which is better. Tactical forum typing or Competition forum typing?
using a word processor or ibm selectric typewriter?
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Old 11-26-2012, 8:03 PM
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Neither, but a speed typing test based upon random words, containing no actual sentences, is the way to determine who is the best writer. It's also the best way to learn how to write. Anyone saying anything different isn't a real typist.


Best writer? Or, best typist?

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Old 11-26-2012, 8:15 PM
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Best writer? Or, best typist?

It all come down to whether or not you can type quickly and accurately. Whoever turns in his manuscript first wins!

... just having fun with the analogy
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Old 11-26-2012, 8:29 PM
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"I do agree with you that one needs to take what they learned from the class and continue to practice themselves. And, IMHO, you can get more value if you practiced what you learned in classes with a shooting buddy then try your skills in competition."

I agree that if two guys got together after taking a class and worked together practicing what they learned, that they could really get some quality practice in at a day at a range. The problem is a very small percentage actually do it or are able to do it. Again, they'd have to have access to a range that allows them to shoot as they would in training or a competition, plus all the targets, walls, barricades, etc that would be needed. What percentage of shooters taking a training class are able to do all this?

Secondly, it's been pointed out that at a competition a shooter may shoot 200 rounds in 4 to 6 hours equating to a couple of minutes of actual trigger time. True. But then it's said that someone going to a two day class with a good portion of the time being lecture or demonstration, that a shooter would get 10 hours of trigger time. Assuming a round count of 800 or even 1000, that's 10 hours to fire 1000 rounds at training vs 2, 3 or 4 minutes to fire 200 rounds at a competition. So a competition shooter would shoot 1000 rounds in 20 minutes or so. How do you get 10 hours of trigger time out of 1000 rounds fired. I would assume that both competition and class shooters would both be engaging some up close, some farther, larger and smaller targets, no shoots, etc. Mark
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Old 11-26-2012, 8:40 PM
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Can I propose a possible solution to all this?

For the class takers can you please give us competition shooters something that you can do which you learned in class that will challenge us?
I am still having trouble understanding what you guys can possibly do that we cant.
I would like to know which major competition runs team tactics in regular basis?

I can think about a few others...
- Shooting, then exiting from the inside of a vehicle against carjacker/ambush
- shooting against a target inside a vehicle
- Team tactics/room clearing
- Transition between two live weapons from sling/holster during movement/shooting (instead of picking up from a table or bucket like 3 guns)
- Low light/No light
- Recovering down officer/bystander under fire. (e.g dragging manikins to cover while maintaining fire)
- Force on Force training with airsoft/UTM marker

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Old 11-26-2012, 8:50 PM
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I can think about two...
- Shooting from the inside of a vehicle against carjacker
- Transition between two live weapons from sling/holster during movement (instead of picking up from a table or bucket)

Some of my classes let students decide themselves when should shooters transit to a handgun or backup gun during drills.
I think the assumption here is we are not cops looking to keep our training up to par. For myself I am ccw and looking to keep proficient in some manner to come out on top. Maybe this is the root of the problem that the class takers are confusing? it would make sense they see value in all this fancy stuff but when or why would you ever need it if its not your job? All that other cop stuff doesnt apply to me and never will.

Firing from inside a car isnt hard and doesnt change the fact that speed and accuracy will prevail. I have fired a gun from just about every position I can think of and that has been through competition.

I do plan to do some night shooting here soon at the private range I joined. Its something I have not done ever and want to experience it during practice first obviously, lol. This is one aspect I have yet to experience but its not something I need to fork money over for to do. I have keys to a range and a house where I can position targets inside for some practice.

PS I only shoot USPA from concealment with my exact same carry rig and have 2 guns set up identical. 1 for high round count competition and 2nd all pefect, clean, and low round count.

So I still need something to sell me on what those of you have up your sleeves after all that money spent thats going to make me jump on board. I do mean this with sincerity so I hope its coming out that way.

Last edited by whitey4311; 11-26-2012 at 8:54 PM..
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Old 11-26-2012, 8:53 PM
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Originally Posted by whitey4311 View Post
Can I propose a possible solution to all this?

For the class takers can you please give us competition shooters something that you can do which you learned in class that will challenge us? I am not sure what to even ask for but I would imagine a drill of some sort or a position to shoot from at some distance etc. Please dont say "cover". In all practical purposes there is no guarantee that it will be available so I would then rely on my speed, draw, accuracy to come out ahead. I want something that will make me think twice but I havent seen any video from the trainers on this site that would make me pull out my wallet and pay to learn. I am tempted to pay someone to see for myself what you guys are talking about but I just dont get it. I hear some cool things here and there but nothing that I think someone should be making $500 a student on.

I am still having trouble understanding what you guys can possibly do that we cant. I still consider this all to be shooting when its said and done. There can only be positions or drills that challenge the basics more. I would like some sort of challenge that I can go duplicate, video, and report back my findings. Basically I am asking you guys to sell me on the training idea so how ever you can convey this please do so.
I am not sure there is much that we can offer to you that you don't already do better, faster and more accurately than anyone here. You always respond with your speed, accuracy will always let you come out on top. Are you the best and fastest shooter at your matches week in and week out? Have you ever lost a match? I only ask because if you are not the best or fastest shot at your matches every week, what makes you think you will be better than anyone you will meet in the streets. Think about that a minute before you answer because if you can't be the best at your local shoot where does that place you in the whole world of competition shooters. They walk the same streets that you do. If your argument is you will be faster than anyone but the best competition shooters then you are lying to your self.

People who take these classes that you don't understand, do so because they understand training never ends. By the way I responded to your post that you quoted me on in post #78.
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Old 11-26-2012, 8:55 PM
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While I agree that vehicle assault course is probably not very practical for average civilians; Low light, Room clearing and tactical medicine/evacuation are important IMO and unlikely learned through regular competitions.
Even team tactics could be useful, especially if you have more than one family members use firearms.
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Old 11-26-2012, 9:05 PM
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I am not sure there is much that we can offer to you that you don't already do better, faster and more accurately than anyone here. You always respond with your speed, accuracy will always let you come out on top. Are you the best and fastest shooter at your matches week in and week out? Have you ever lost a match? I only ask because if you are not the best or fastest shot at your matches every week, what makes you think you will be better than anyone you will meet in the streets. Think about that a minute before you answer because if you can't be the best at your local shoot where does that place you in the whole world of competition shooters. They walk the same streets that you do. If your argument is you will be faster than anyone but the best competition shooters then you are lying to your self.

People who take these classes that you don't understand, do so because they understand training never ends. By the way I responded to your post that you quoted me on in post #78.
Not even close to the fastest but in 3 years I have grown tremendously. I never said I was but I do stand firm in my opinion that speed and accuracy are the most important. The other stuff you can be taught and will for ever be changing based on the situation. Being fast and accurate can only be practiced one way and it will take a long time to achieve. It wont be achieved by taking $500 classes at even once a month.

I think you are failing at the challenge here. I can draw up a stage and have "C" and "A" class shooters run it to give a min/max time to run it in with a hit factor for points. This could be easily duplicated by you over video of the time and hits. We do this every week in competition.

So what can you give me thats a challenge to try based on what you have learned? Dont get all pissy just give me something real. I am not saying that I am the best and can do it better but I sure want to try and see for myself what I might be missing out on.

Ie the phoenix Tactical guys post vids all the time and I watch them. Not sure the guys name but he had 4 targets spaced 5, 7, 15, 25 yrds staggered in the field. From the holster he placed 1 good shot on each in under 3 seconds. Let me tell you I tried a dozen times and only got under 3 seconds twice but not with clean hits. I had 1 miss or not center mass etc. Now I highly doubt that was a cold run because it was hella fast. Who knows maybe it was but it was impressive. It wasnt a tactic and not something that could be taught but it is something that will take a long time to practice. Again the speed and accuracy motto.

Last edited by whitey4311; 11-26-2012 at 9:08 PM..
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Old 11-26-2012, 9:28 PM
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Originally Posted by whitey4311 View Post
... the fact that speed and accuracy will prevail. ...
This is the central notion that I would ask you to think carefully about. Is it a fact or a belief? Maybe if you posted a bit about why exactly you believe it to be true?

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Originally Posted by whitey4311 View Post
So I still need something to sell me on what those of you have up your sleeves after all that money spent thats going to make me jump on board. I do mean this with sincerity so I hope its coming out that way.
I take your request seriously, but I am having a hard time thinking of how to get you to look past what I perceive to be some misconceptions on your part. I'll return to this thread tomorrow, perhaps with some ideas.
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