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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

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  #41  
Old 11-22-2012, 1:23 PM
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I'm starting to look forward to meeting Mike Pannone when he comes out here.
Mike Pannone's (AKA Noner) next class in SoCal is the Mike Pannone 2-Day Covert Carry Class – March 23-24, 2013 – Los Angeles, CA. Also, check out some Q&A with Noner regarding Covert Carry on M4C.
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  #42  
Old 11-22-2012, 1:23 PM
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Basically my problem with all instructors is that they constantly contradict each other from class to class instructor to instructor, but insist that we should do it their way because they did this and that.

If someone cant provide a rational explanation of whatever it is that convinces me its better than another technique then i wont do it.

As for training, i get alot more for my money playing IPSC, 3gun and paintball. Most everything id need in a real fight i get out of that combination. Ill be damned if i pay hundreds of dollars to hear some guy who talks too much when i can get the same info elsewhere and practice it on my own.
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  #43  
Old 11-22-2012, 5:18 PM
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Basically my problem with all instructors is that they constantly contradict each other from class to class instructor to instructor, but insist that we should do it their way because they did this and that.

If someone cant provide a rational explanation of whatever it is that convinces me its better than another technique then i wont do it.

As for training, i get alot more for my money playing IPSC, 3gun and paintball. Most everything id need in a real fight i get out of that combination. Ill be damned if i pay hundreds of dollars to hear some guy who talks too much when i can get the same info elsewhere and practice it on my own.
Or hear it once then actually go out to shoot and practice. These guys seem to take so many classes but still can't perform in the range. I guess this would be like going to a different church each month just to see who thinks they are more "right".
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  #44  
Old 11-22-2012, 9:04 PM
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And some of these classes charge $500 for what can be practiced for $20(at my club's matches). Id rather shoot with guys who can show me what they can do rather than hear someone's theories for half the day. I can get better shooting lessons by just squadding up with a master class shooter.
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  #45  
Old 11-22-2012, 9:09 PM
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And some of these classes charge $500 for what can be practiced for $20(at my club's matches).
You can't practice what you don't know.
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  #46  
Old 11-22-2012, 9:32 PM
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Most the classes duplicate common drills shot in classifiers. Look up some of the reviews and you will see. Either way lots of the grand master guys are trainers as well but they really can shoot fast in both competition and when teaching.

How much practice can you afford at $200-$500 just or the entry fees minus ammo costs? At some point you will have to practice a lot more and even if you can afford 1 class a month that's not enough.

Last edited by whitey4311; 11-22-2012 at 9:35 PM..
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  #47  
Old 11-22-2012, 9:37 PM
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You can't practice what you don't know.
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  #48  
Old 11-22-2012, 10:53 PM
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What do you know?
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  #49  
Old 11-22-2012, 11:26 PM
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And some of these classes charge $500 for what can be practiced for $20(at my club's matches). Id rather shoot with guys who can show me what they can do rather than hear someone's theories for half the day. I can get better shooting lessons by just squadding up with a master class shooter.
Fallacy 1 - that a match will, or even can, duplicate what you get at a training course.

Fallacy 2 - that a good instructor at a tactical training course can't show a student how to do what they can do.

Fallacy 3 - that an instructor at a tactical training course is only going to give you "theories."

Fallacy 4 - that a $500 class gets you half a day.

Fallacy 5 - that you can get better shooting lessons just by squadding up with a master class shooter. You apparently have no idea what level of instruction you will receive at a training course. Further, you assume that a master class shooter can also instruct.

The mythical shooting course that you constructed to validate your theories is not like any I have ever experienced. Please detail which "tactical" or other shooting courses you have attended, excluding sporting clays.
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  #50  
Old 11-23-2012, 5:00 AM
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1. I never said you only get a half day. I said you'll have to hear your instructor talk for a half day.

2. I never said an instructor cant show a student what to do.

3. I never said an instructor only gives you theories.

You've crafted a mythical argument.

Ive said this over and over in this thread, if a person wants to become a better shooter, competition will hone those skills better and in a more cost effective way than "tactical training."
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  #51  
Old 11-23-2012, 7:20 AM
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so you have just taken a combat oriented training class, now what do you do next weekend to hone your skills?
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  #52  
Old 11-23-2012, 7:26 AM
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so you have just taken a combat oriented training class, now what do you do next weekend to hone your skills?
Talk about how competition sucks on calguns, lol.
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  #53  
Old 11-23-2012, 11:10 AM
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Talk about how competition sucks on calguns, lol.
Who has actually said that "competition sucks" ...?
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  #54  
Old 11-23-2012, 11:29 AM
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... Ive said this over and over in this thread, if a person wants to become a better shooter, competition will hone those skills better and in a more cost effective way than "tactical training."
I bolded the word "shooter", as it's central to the nature of your statement. People tend to get the concepts "being a better shooter" and "being able to defend yourself" mixed up, as though they are the same thing. They aren't.

Shooting well is one of many components or skills necessary for self-defense. There is absolutely no doubt that competition can hone these skills. Whether is does so "better" is another question entirely. I mean that sincerely ... it's a open question.

"Cost effective" is a bit hard to put boundaries on. In a raw sense ... yes, a $20 (or less?) entrance fee for a "days worth of shooting" sounds better on paper than $200 for a one-day course. From what I am told, that days worth of shooting represents about 5-10 minutes of actual shooting time, 5-6 presentations from holster and 200 or so rounds fired. There may or may not be malfunction practices or shooting from unorthodox positions.

Conversely, a typical one-day self-defense, combat or "tactical" (how I hate that word) course will entail dozens of presentations from holster, far more time spent actually shooting, 600+ rounds expended, many iterations of malfunction clearing and a good amount of individual attention in the way of diagnostics and instruction.

Maybe it's a matter of whether you have more time than money, or more money than time to spare?

Where competition seems to really shine is as a form of practice, something many people attending SD-classes fail to pursue. A guy shooting every weekend is getting a helluva lot of practice in, and that can't be discounted or ignored in its importance. This one reason why I have chosen to begin participating in competition of one form or another. I don't have the time to be a "every weekender", but it's a good, inexpensive trigger time, and that can't be a bad thing as long as everything is kept in proper context.
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  #55  
Old 11-23-2012, 11:38 AM
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Any shooting practice on a frequent basis is a good thing and is certainly better than not shooting on a regular basis. However, there are some whose only mode of practice is competitive shooting and having not tried any formal training from either technical or tactical instructors are quick to dismiss any such training. Ideally, at least they would try some formal training preferably from an instructor of both backgrounds and only then judge it for themselves. Additionally, there are some for whom competitive shooting is the only practice they need for all self defense and tactical situations. I have come to the conclusion that there is no convincing these people that competitive shooting is NOT an end all be all.
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  #56  
Old 11-23-2012, 1:02 PM
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"Where competition seems to really shine is as a form of practice, something many people attending SD-classes fail to pursue."

The above statement is the point I'm trying to make. I'm a county correctional officer with minimal training through my job. I shoot a lot of handgun competition, but do not confuse it with tactical/combat training. I have run across a lot of shooters that have gone to various training schools, but they apparently haven't followed that up with enough practice to have good gunhandling and shooting skills. Of course there are good shooters too.

After taking a tactical training class, having a place to really practice what you've learned is a problem for most shooters. Plus, to do it on your own , you really have to be determined to get it done. It feels like work. Competition is fun and because it's fun more shooters get out and do it regularly. For those going to tactical type shooting schools, the best situation would probably be for them to regularly practice, on a range that allows it, with all the props and targets needed, the things they were taught at the shooting school. I'm sure the schools must teach you how to practice properly along with everything else. But how many shooters can follow up their training with really good practice sessions? Or if they can, how many actually do it? Mark
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  #57  
Old 11-23-2012, 1:33 PM
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"Where competition seems to really shine is as a form of practice, something many people attending SD-classes fail to pursue."

The above statement is the point I'm trying to make. I'm a county correctional officer with minimal training through my job. I shoot a lot of handgun competition, but do not confuse it with tactical/combat training. I have run across a lot of shooters that have gone to various training schools, but they apparently haven't followed that up with enough practice to have good gunhandling and shooting skills. Of course there are good shooters too.

After taking a tactical training class, having a place to really practice what you've learned is a problem for most shooters. Plus, to do it on your own , you really have to be determined to get it done. It feels like work. Competition is fun and because it's fun more shooters get out and do it regularly. For those going to tactical type shooting schools, the best situation would probably be for them to regularly practice, on a range that allows it, with all the props and targets needed, the things they were taught at the shooting school. I'm sure the schools must teach you how to practice properly along with everything else. But how many shooters can follow up their training with really good practice sessions? Or if they can, how many actually do it? Mark
Very valid points.

I take tactical classes in addition to visits to the square range and competitive shooting (GSSF, IDPA & USPSA).

I go to GSSF matches much more than IDPA and USPSA because you get several courses done and you're done in a couple of hours. With IDPA and USPSA you're there for 6+ hours and you don't shoot that much.

On average at least once a month we rent a private range where we can draw from the holster. Usually only two shooters so that we get maximum trigger time per shooter. We go through many drills and courses of fire that are scored for speed and accuracy. We also run the previous weekend's match be that IDPA or USPSA since we go there on a Tuesday. We also practice anything we've learnt from a training school. We also run the courses of fire with at least a couple of dummy rounds per magazine that the shooting partner loads. We get 8 solid hours of about 500-750 rounds per shooter. The possibilities are endless and the results and fun factor immeasurable.
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  #58  
Old 11-23-2012, 2:02 PM
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"On average at least once a month we rent a private range where we can draw from the holster. Usually only two shooters so that we get maximum trigger time per shooter. We go through many drills and courses of fire that are scored for speed and accuracy. We also run the previous weekend's match be that IDPA or USPSA since we go there on a Tuesday. We also practice anything we've learnt from a training school. We also run the courses of fire with at least a couple of dummy rounds per magazine that the shooting partner loads. We get 8 solid hours of about 500-750 rounds per shooter. The possibilities are endless and the results and fun factor immeasurable."

If someone makes it a priority and has access to a range, targes, props, they can get a lot done. When you say that you run the previous weeks IDPA or USPSA courses of fire, do you actually set up walls, barricades and moving targets etc. that were used in the match. Or do they leave this set up until the next weekend? Mark
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  #59  
Old 11-23-2012, 2:14 PM
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When you say that you run the previous weeks IDPA or USPSA courses of fire, do you actually set up walls, barricades and moving targets etc. that were used in the match. Or do they leave this set up until the next weekend?
They leave it there until Wednesday-Friday so getting there Tuesdays works out great.

Shooting and training both technically and tactically are not rocket science but there are essentials for a complete regimen.
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Old 11-23-2012, 2:50 PM
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That would be great to have it left set up if they tear it down later and build for the next match. You could shoot the same courses of fire and then alter it for some variation. All of the clubs around here have to tear down right after the match so the range can be used by others. We can't leave targets and props out. Had a break in a couple of years ago and lost all of our stands and other steel.

I have some stands I made and others I bought along with 5 steel rounds and a full size sillouete steel. I can set up quite a few cardboard targets and steel so I can get some practice in. At one range I'm able to set up and shoot what I want at one end of the range, usually with no one else there. At another range I used to belong to, they have the typical firing line and I wouldn't be able to do the same. Mark
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  #61  
Old 11-23-2012, 2:58 PM
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You could shoot the same courses of fire and then alter it for some variation.
As I said previously the possibilities are endless: changing the order, positions, start, dummy rounds, penalized for not using cover if available, combining several stages into one, etc.
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Old 11-23-2012, 4:08 PM
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Whether practicing for and shooting in competitions or taking a bunch of 'tactical' training classes, both will improve you gun handling and shooting abilities, and both, to varying limited extents, will help your mental preparation for a real life defensive situation.

Beyond that, these discussions become irrelevant to any reality and drift off in a fantasy land of movies, cowboys and indians and video games.

Excluding active military and LEO, NO One here is going to be part of an actual event where tactical skills will affect the outcome. Mil & LEO who might be, will have trained as a team with specific task assignments and directions given moment by moment as the situation plays out.

All the rest of us need to be prepared for a realistic home or personal defense scenario. Both competition and tactical training can 'help' so just choose which ever one you have fun with. Better yet, do them both! Then add in some quality personal defense training if you want to improve your chances of walking away from a dangerous situation.
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Old 11-24-2012, 7:14 AM
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ZT: Just a few things. By your math, which seems correct as far as cost and rounds fired still shows how cost effective competition is. To shoot the same amount as one of your classes, it would only require $60 in match fees. During those matches you'll be doing mag changes, malfunction clearing, and all that stuff you like to pay more for.

Also, as you'll soon find out when you start competing, you wont compete for practice, you'll be practicing for competition.
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Old 11-24-2012, 8:59 AM
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As I said previously the possibilities are endless: changing the order, positions, start, dummy rounds, penalized for not using cover if available, combining several stages into one, etc.
I agree with this method of training being helpful. We used to have matches in S.C. that we would set up a course of fire and the shooter could not do a dry run or see the set up prior to their turn to shoot.

It was basically a outdoor shoot house with walls and doors. There were shoot and no shoot targets and you didn't know where they were until you turned a corner or opened a door. You could still shoot these with pretty good speed but it placed more focus on doing it in a safe and accurate manner. We would try to go as fast as we could but that split second it takes to identify a target as a shoot don't shoot target does effect times. Knowing a target ahead of time versus identifying a target at the time of engagement does carry a time factor difference.
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Old 11-24-2012, 9:12 AM
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I agree with this method of training being helpful. We used to have matches in S.C. that we would set up a course of fire and the shooter could not do a dry run or see the set up prior to their turn to shoot.

It was basically a outdoor shoot house with walls and doors. There were shoot and no shoot targets and you didn't know where they were until you turned a corner or opened a door. You could still shoot these with pretty good speed but it placed more focus on doing it in a safe and accurate manner. We would try to go as fast as we could but that split second it takes to identify a target as a shoot don't shoot target does effect times. Knowing a target ahead of time versus identifying a target at the time of engagement does carry a time factor difference.
Not knowing the shoots/no shoots is another great variation. Using cutouts of pistols on shoot targets makes you look to see if a target has a gun pointing at you. When you combine that with moving and coming around corners you realize you can't safely blaze through the course without exposing yourself to harm. Add to that having dummy rounds in your magazines loaded by someone else makes the situations even more dynamic. Cover, fix it and continue or if you were shooting on the move fix it on the move without missing a beat. A good dummy round is as the last round in the magazine. It all gets your juices flowing.
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Old 11-24-2012, 9:21 AM
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Not knowing the shoots/no shoots is another great variation. Using cutouts of pistols on shoot targets makes you look to see if a target has a gun pointing at you. When you combine that with moving and coming around corners you realize you can't safely blaze through the course without exposing yourself to harm. Add to that having dummy rounds in your magazines loaded by someone else makes the situations even more dynamic. Cover, fix it and continue or if you were shooting on the move fix it on the move without missing a beat. A good dummy round is as the last round in the magazine. It all gets your juices flowing.
Agree! I have gained far more from these type of training sessions versus shooting a known course of fire. They both serve a purpose and both will make you a better shot. I just believe not knowing and shooting takes a little more decision making before taking the shot. Not having a dry run makes a difference. Neither is bad for trigger time just different.
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Old 11-24-2012, 9:41 AM
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ZT: Just a few things. By your math, which seems correct as far as cost and rounds fired still shows how cost effective competition is. To shoot the same amount as one of your classes, it would only require $60 in match fees. During those matches you'll be doing mag changes, malfunction clearing, and all that stuff you like to pay more for.
This would assume that the only value to be had is in the shooting itself or number of rounds fired, which would be a gross oversimplification. Aside from this, my time has a value. The cost in money to shoot x number of rounds in competition is small, the cost in time much greater.

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Also, as you'll soon find out when you start competing, you wont compete for practice, you'll be practicing for competition. ...
Almost certainly not. I have no interest in winning competitions, but I think it's a great way to get in some trigger time.
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Old 11-24-2012, 9:49 AM
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Excluding active military and LEO, NO One here is going to be part of an actual event where tactical skills will affect the outcome. ...
The word "tactics" is overused and often poorly defined. If you mean "military team tactics", then you are 100% correct. However, from my perspective, there are indeed "tactics" involved in self-defensive shooting.
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Old 11-24-2012, 7:16 PM
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" Aside from this, my time has a value. The cost in money to shoot x number of rounds in competition is small, the cost in time much greater."

People go way overboard trying to figure the cost of their time into various activities. Most of us aren't earning our going rate 24 hours a day. When I'm sitting at home doing some reloading, when I would otherwise be watching TV or something, I don't factor my hourly rate at work into the cost of my reloads. If you're going to figure things that way I guess then that people who are going to go spend $500 for a two day class will have to add in two days wages to the cost of the class. Mark
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Old 11-24-2012, 9:20 PM
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Excluding active military and LEO, NO One here is going to be part of an actual event where tactical skills will affect the outcome.
Interesting. So you think knowing how to correctly clear a room in the event of a home invasion is something NO One, other than LEOs/MIL need to know?

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Originally Posted by ramzar
Additionally, there are some for whom competitive shooting is the only practice they need for all self defense and tactical situations. I have come to the conclusion that there is no convincing these people that competitive shooting is NOT an end all be all.
Agree 100%.

One thing I realized is that the guys who are more inclined towards taking training classes are open to competitions. While the 100% competition guys are hell bent on never taking classes. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
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Old 11-25-2012, 6:33 AM
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The word "tactics" is overused and often poorly defined. If you mean "military team tactics", then you are 100% correct. However, from my perspective, there are indeed "tactics" involved in self-defensive shooting.
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Originally Posted by gesundheit View Post
Interesting. So you think knowing how to correctly clear a room in the event of a home invasion is something NO One, other than LEOs/MIL need to know?
You're right, I'll agree the term tactics correctly applies to home and self defense methods. Just most 'tactical' discussions here are the fantasy types.
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:05 AM
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Tactics are for tactics and shooting is for shooting.

So then this means the "class jockeys" dont practice much shooting. I think that about sums it up for me.

This opinion told to me by a SWAT cop who custom molded me some ear plugs on Friday. I asked him what he thought about all the classes offered and he felt most were a joke and only a select few guys really know their stuff. On the other hand, he asked me why civilians would be taking the classes because its not what they do and its not a job necessity.

I tend to agree with him but he did give me an instructor to look up which he claims to be the GUY for my area so I may just see what its all about. Beyond learning some "tactics" the rest is going to be about shooting so I will cont and attend my local matches for 200 rounds and 6 stages (average) of actual shooting.

Last edited by whitey4311; 11-25-2012 at 10:07 AM..
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by whitey4311 View Post
Tactics are for tactics and shooting is for shooting.

So then this means the "class jockeys" dont practice much shooting. I think that about sums it up for me.
Erroneous conclusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whitey4311 View Post

This opinion told to me by a SWAT cop who custom molded me some ear plugs on Friday. I asked him what he thought about all the classes offered and he felt most were a joke and only a select few guys really know their stuff. On the other hand, he asked me why civilians would be taking the classes because its not what they do and its not a job necessity.
One opinion that the SWAT label does not add any more credence to.

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Originally Posted by whitey4311 View Post

I tend to agree with him but he did give me an instructor to look up which he claims to be the GUY for my area so I may just see what its all about.
Mystery GUY!?

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Originally Posted by whitey4311 View Post

Beyond learning some "tactics" the rest is going to be about shooting so I will cont and attend my local matches for 200 rounds and 6 stages (average) of actual shooting.
Practicing is always good.

By the way, any relation to Brian1979?
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Old 11-25-2012, 1:12 PM
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Originally Posted by whitey4311 View Post
Tactics are for tactics and shooting is for shooting.

So then this means the "class jockeys" dont practice much shooting. I think that about sums it up for me.

This opinion told to me by a SWAT cop who custom molded me some ear plugs on Friday. I asked him what he thought about all the classes offered and he felt most were a joke and only a select few guys really know their stuff. On the other hand, he asked me why civilians would be taking the classes because its not what they do and its not a job necessity.

I tend to agree with him but he did give me an instructor to look up which he claims to be the GUY for my area so I may just see what its all about. Beyond learning some "tactics" the rest is going to be about shooting so I will cont and attend my local matches for 200 rounds and 6 stages (average) of actual shooting.

I am shocked a swat officer thinks a citizen has no reason to train to protect their family. I think the only thing a person should be concerned with regardless of the type shooting or training do is to be competent in their abilities to defend themselves. If you are well rounded in your skills and can answer that question in the affirmative it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about your abilities.

I know how much I have trained over the years and I know my strengths and my weaknesses. I don't sweat whether I did something faster this time than the last, I just want to do it better every time. My only goal is to get better, and I try to do that by working on what I don't do as well as I would like.

Train the way you wish and train well. Don't worry about what the other guy is doing.
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Old 11-25-2012, 4:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
Erroneous conclusion.



One opinion that the SWAT label does not add any more credence to.



Mystery GUY!?



Practicing is always good.

By the way, any relation to Brian1979?
Yes. I emailed mods about my account but its still jacked up. So made this one. Should have mentioned that.

The mystery guy doesnt so much matter but I agree with him and hes the real deal. Not a class taking junky who has an opinion or even someone like me a competition guy with an opinion. He does it for a profession and I would imagine most their opinions to be about the same unless they are taking your money for training.
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Old 11-25-2012, 4:42 PM
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Originally Posted by USMC 82-86 View Post
I am shocked a swat officer thinks a citizen has no reason to train to protect their family. I think the only thing a person should be concerned with regardless of the type shooting or training do is to be competent in their abilities to defend themselves. If you are well rounded in your skills and can answer that question in the affirmative it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about your abilities.

I know how much I have trained over the years and I know my strengths and my weaknesses. I don't sweat whether I did something faster this time than the last, I just want to do it better every time. My only goal is to get better, and I try to do that by working on what I don't do as well as I would like.

Train the way you wish and train well. Don't worry about what the other guy is doing.

yea sure doing it half as fast doesnt matter at all. ????

He didnt say dont train. He said tactics are for ever changing and the "what ifs" are endless. Its about shooting and if you can do that then there are some tactics to be learned but if your not a cop whats the point. In my opinion if you cant use cover while being shot at then you are just dumb. Shooting from behind cover isnt more tactical its called common sense. The shooting part is where you will win or loose. I am interested on his offer to take training from http://www.internationaltactical.com/index.html. He swore that if I didnt think it was helpful he would pay the bill. I asked the competition crowd and they are aware of this trainer and say hes the real deal. It will be fun to see for myself but at least with some solid advice I was able to weed out the others and possibly not waste money on stuff I can already do.

My only issue with all these schools is I am not going to pay for general handgun courses just to take the advanced stuff. I suppose if I call and explain my ability and current level of handgun experience its possible I can skip the beginner classes. I did take a gneral handgun course which I would think is equal to the Level 1 handgun. I was bored out of my mind and the trainer said I did the best but that wasnt welcomed when I lost $300 for the class. At that point I had only ever shot 1 USPSA match and was proficient in shooting static because until my 1st match it was all I ever did. I really want something challenging and want to see what you guys are always jumping up and down about but I am not going to lie that I am a skeptic. It looks to me that they are simply forcing positions to shoot from but like I said its all shooting at the end. The SWAT officer spoke so highly of this guy I figure its my best bet to see something good.

Last edited by whitey4311; 11-25-2012 at 5:33 PM..
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Old 11-25-2012, 5:41 PM
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Originally Posted by whitey4311 View Post

I am interested on his offer to take training from http://www.internationaltactical.com/index.html. He swore that if I didnt think it was helpful he would pay the bill. I asked the competition crowd and they are aware of this trainer and say hes the real deal. It will be fun to see for myself but at least with some solid advice I was able to weed out the others and possibly not waste money on stuff I can already do.

My only issue with all these schools is I am not going to pay for general handgun courses just to take the advanced stuff. I suppose if I call and explain my ability and current level of handgun experience its possible I can skip the beginner classes. I really want something challenging and want to see what you guys are always jumping up and down about but I am not going to lie that I am a skeptic. It looks to me that they are simply forcing positions to shoot from but like I said its all shooting at the end. The SWAT officer spoke so highly of this guy I figure its my best bet to see something good.
With ITTS (Angeles Shooting Range) you have to see if you can start with their Defensive Handgun III and then follow that up with Advanced Handgun. I took a lot of classes with them from Nov. 2006 to May 2010. Scotty Reitz who's the lead instructor was with LAPD SWAT and the Primary Firearms Instructor for LAPD Metro. These two 2-day courses cover a lot of good material including night shoots, moving targets and simunition shoot house. They used to be a tad too heavy on the lecture, talk and cop stories.

Locally, TFTT (Burro Canyon Shooting Park) also has a great Tactical Pistol 1, 2 & 3. Max Joseph is a great instructor.

You may also be more interested in the Mike Pannone 2-Day Covert Carry Class on March 23-24, 2013 (Prado Olympic Shooting Park). Mike was in charge of the Federal Air Marshal Service (FAMS) shooting program and knows concealed carry and is a top notch instructor.

A great upcoming challenging class will be Dave "Super Dave" Harrington 2-Day Combatspeed Handgun on Dec 15-16, 2012 (Burro Canyon Shooting Park). You get to shoot from many positions, night shoot on Saturday and 2,000+ rounds over 2 days.
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Last edited by ramzar; 11-25-2012 at 5:47 PM..
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Old 11-25-2012, 5:59 PM
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Originally Posted by whitey4311 View Post
yea sure doing it half as fast doesnt matter at all. ????

He didnt say dont train. He said tactics are for ever changing and the "what ifs" are endless. Its about shooting and if you can do that then there are some tactics to be learned but if your not a cop whats the point. In my opinion if you cant use cover while being shot at then you are just dumb. Shooting from behind cover isnt more tactical its called common sense. The shooting part is where you will win or loose. I am interested on his offer to take training from http://www.internationaltactical.com/index.html. He swore that if I didnt think it was helpful he would pay the bill. I asked the competition crowd and they are aware of this trainer and say hes the real deal. It will be fun to see for myself but at least with some solid advice I was able to weed out the others and possibly not waste money on stuff I can already do.

My only issue with all these schools is I am not going to pay for general handgun courses just to take the advanced stuff. I suppose if I call and explain my ability and current level of handgun experience its possible I can skip the beginner classes. I did take a gneral handgun course which I would think is equal to the Level 1 handgun. I was bored out of my mind and the trainer said I did the best but that wasnt welcomed when I lost $300 for the class. At that point I had only ever shot 1 USPSA match and was proficient in shooting static because until my 1st match it was all I ever did. I really want something challenging and want to see what you guys are always jumping up and down about but I am not going to lie that I am a skeptic. It looks to me that they are simply forcing positions to shoot from but like I said its all shooting at the end. The SWAT officer spoke so highly of this guy I figure its my best bet to see something good.

I don't think I ever said anything about doing anything half as fast. I simply said better every time was my goal. Some people seem to think for some reason that people who don't shoot weekend competitions, and spend more time doing defensive training shoot slow. I don't think anyone has ever said they shoot slow, but given a choice I'll take the hit even if it is a fraction slower.

I don't recall your mention of his/swat officer remarks regarding ever changing tactics. If he did mention that to you, you should be aware that simply assuming you will do all the right things when needed is not always the case with things ever changing. Look I don't hear people saying that competition shooters can't shoot well, but it is pretty sad that you assume people who train in defensive methods are slow or bad shots.

Some people have shot competition, some have trained in defensive methods, and some have done it for real when it counts. Some have done all three. Just trying to share info is all we are doing.
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Old 11-25-2012, 7:41 PM
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"One thing I realized is that the guys who are more inclined towards taking training classes are open to competitions. While the 100% competition guys are hell bent on never taking classes. Different strokes for different folks I guess."

That's a dumb comparison. It would be equally accurate to say that the "100% of guys that only take training classes are hell bent on never shooting in competition. But you compare the "more inclined" to training to the "100% competition guys. Real fair comparison.. Mark
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Old 11-25-2012, 8:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
With ITTS (Angeles Shooting Range) you have to see if you can start with their Defensive Handgun III and then follow that up with Advanced Handgun. I took a lot of classes with them from Nov. 2006 to May 2010. Scotty Reitz who's the lead instructor was with LAPD SWAT and the Primary Firearms Instructor for LAPD Metro. These two 2-day courses cover a lot of good material including night shoots, moving targets and simunition shoot house. They used to be a tad too heavy on the lecture, talk and cop stories.

Locally, TFTT (Burro Canyon Shooting Park) also has a great Tactical Pistol 1, 2 & 3. Max Joseph is a great instructor.

You may also be more interested in the Mike Pannone 2-Day Covert Carry Class on March 23-24, 2013 (Prado Olympic Shooting Park). Mike was in charge of the Federal Air Marshal Service (FAMS) shooting program and knows concealed carry and is a top notch instructor.

A great upcoming challenging class will be Dave "Super Dave" Harrington 2-Day Combatspeed Handgun on Dec 15-16, 2012 (Burro Canyon Shooting Park). You get to shoot from many positions, night shoot on Saturday and 2,000+ rounds over 2 days.
See, that would really turn me off and anger me I spent money to talk about shooting. I am so unsure as to what to do but if someone is getting $500 I had better be leaving with something learned and alot of it.

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