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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 12-26-2012, 1:01 PM
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Arrow They cannot take away our guns or gun rights

All,

In light of this tragedy, there has been lots of talk amongst us in terms of this politician and that media pundit going around saying "confiscate confiscate confiscate!!!" We all know that to be obvious, and we know that a tragedy of any kind involving a firearm is going to be a precursor to screaming in favor of confiscation and banning of firearms of all kinds.

There are threads indicating doom and gloom for our Second Amendment rights, and while anything in the way of "efforts" by anyone with any form of power needs to be taken seriously, there is a simple answer to this issue of them wanting to take our guns and gun rights away;

The Second Amendment, and the opinions in Heller and McDonald will ABSOLUTELY not allow confiscation or deprivation of the right against the law-abiding without a war, so all of this talk about lawmakers wanting to confiscate and ban is a laughable proposition that would have the Supreme Court Justices ready to bust their gavels.

As for bans in Australia being a precursor to bans here in the United States, there is no comparison to Australia because they don't have the kind of Second Amendment protections that we have here in the United States where we have actual live Constitutional Protections. In addition to that, we have enough gun rights groups in this nation to likely top (just my wild [and likely wishful] guess) at least 8 million. I'm involving all the gun rights groups on the states' level, not just the NRA, SAF, GOA, JPFO and those on the national level. The membership here at CGN is 130,821 (with 29,783 active members). Thinking about the increase in membership numbers due to this issue is something to maybe consider as well.

CGN is state minded, so think about all the other state groups and how many members those groups might have as well, then add up the numbers, and one might agree that the total I estimate above might be "conservative", but that's just a theory of mine that could be full of...

Feinstein, Obama, Bloomberg and others want a ban on semi-auto rifles and other semi-auto firearms, and they say it could be done because they did it in 1994.

There is A LOT MORE KNOWLEDGE and we have a lot more sharp fangs on our side today than we had back in 1994. We now have people like Gura, Kilmer, Clement, Michel, Hoffman, Gottlieb, LaPierre and others who have minds which are far more superior in knowledge than the mental cases within the Washington Beltway and Sacramento Capitol. Put them together with litigants like Peterson, Richards, Peña, Nordyke and so many others, and 1994 becomes rather irrelevant.

As for Feinstein & Bloomberg as well as others and their dream bills, they not only disregard the Constitution, but absolutely dismiss it with contempt, so while we need to keep a close watch on her and take anything she and her henchmen/women says seriously, we also need to not let it cause a breakdown amongst us. In addition, we also need to be careful what we say here, and stay focused.

Erik.
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Old 12-26-2012, 3:03 PM
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Old 12-26-2012, 6:45 PM
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All the liberal congressmen and senators are trying to figure out a way to repeal the 2nd Amendment. We're headed towards the 2nd civil war.
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Old 12-26-2012, 7:09 PM
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One other point, it is actually possible that if the anti-liberty folk get their wish out of Congress that they will regret their actions.

I can imagine a number of scenarios where the bad law gets us good results in the end. I'm not advocating for bad law, but there could be amazing silver lining involved.
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Old 12-26-2012, 7:13 PM
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The only issue is that gun owners, and gun right supporters are the minority in heavily populated states. The heavily populated states have the most influence.

Although a national ban may not take place, expect more heavily restrictive laws to be passed
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Old 12-26-2012, 7:15 PM
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This is so well written that my blood pressure just dropped significantly. I feel that once this efforts of theirs fails this issue will be settled even further and we will be stronger than they could have ever imagined.
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Old 12-26-2012, 7:30 PM
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What I find intriguing is the "gun buy back" that just took place today, or over the next several, in Los Angeles. People are turning in their fire arms for gift cards. I suppose if you put all your trust in the local establishment, you may do that. However, I'm not about to turn in any fire arm for a gift card to Chili's, only to find someone breaks into my home with intentions of eliminating my family - not going to happen.....

Just shocked people are willing to "sell" their arms. May be a sly way of the government to remove guns, but my guess is only law abiding folks were turning their guns in today...

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Old 12-26-2012, 7:36 PM
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I want to add that there is not going to be a repeal of the 2nd Amendment. To Amend the Constitution you need 38 states to ratify the change. (Or have a constitutional convention which is not going to happen.)

I will bet anyone here $1 that Arizona, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Arkansas, Missouri, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, South Carolina, and North Carolina will never ever vote for a change to the 2nd Amendment. That makes 15 states at least, and I bet there are a lot more like Alaska that wouldn't vote for a change. The effort to change the 2nd would be a grist mill for the anti's money and it would never work.

I think we are going to see California like laws nationwide, but nothing more.
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Old 12-26-2012, 7:52 PM
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I'm concerned with the b.s. that the libtards are going to throw up in this state. If I was living in AZ (please "insert deity here," let this be true some day) I really wouldn't be sweating this too much. But living here in the great state of traffic congestion and free handouts to the lazy, I'm scared to death that I'm not going to be allowed to have no more than a slingshot for self-defense...oh wait, they will legislate that too, shizz.
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Old 12-26-2012, 8:03 PM
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Don't think it is impossible to nullify the 2nd amendment.
Remember the 21st amendment repealed the 18th amendment (prohibition).

This is not to say I believe the 2nd amendment will be repealed...but it is possible to do so.
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Old 12-26-2012, 8:07 PM
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Well said Erik.

Thanks...
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Old 12-26-2012, 8:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiburi View Post
What I find intriguing is the "gun buy back" that just took place today, or over the next several, in Los Angeles. People are turning in their fire arms for gift cards. I suppose if you put all your trust in the local establishment, you may do that. However, I'm not about to turn in any fire arm for a gift card to Chili's, only to find someone breaks into my home with intentions of eliminating my family - not going to happen.....

Just shocked people are willing to "sell" their arms. May be a sly way of the government to remove guns, but my guess is only law abiding folks were turning their guns in today...

Chib
The gun buy back was a joke. I have a friend who worked it today and its mostly illegal,broken and guns not worth even what the gift cards are. Those things get mostly ILLEGAL guns out of these people hands. They claim Ar-15's were turned in today buy looked like brand new out of box and i am sure were "loaners" by LAPD
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Old 12-26-2012, 8:09 PM
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Well said.
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Old 12-26-2012, 8:11 PM
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Erik,

That is the best piece written here in years.

As I've told our local IDPA members and fellow shooters. Stick to the facts and act professional. Leave your personal feelings out of it and do NOT sink to their level with emotional responses and fear mongering.
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Old 12-26-2012, 8:29 PM
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Old 12-26-2012, 11:21 PM
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Don't they need Chuck Norris' approval first?
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Old 12-26-2012, 11:22 PM
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Don't they need Chuck Norris' approval first?
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Old 12-26-2012, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goosebrown View Post
I want to add that there is not going to be a repeal of the 2nd Amendment. To Amend the Constitution you need 38 states to ratify the change. (Or have a constitutional convention which is not going to happen.)

I will bet anyone here $1 that Arizona, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Arkansas, Missouri, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, South Carolina, and North Carolina will never ever vote for a change to the 2nd Amendment. That makes 15 states at least, and I bet there are a lot more like Alaska that wouldn't vote for a change. The effort to change the 2nd would be a grist mill for the anti's money and it would never work.

I think we are going to see California like laws nationwide, but nothing more.
What I want to see is those states you listed, to stand up to the Feds and refuse any further restrictions on firearms similar to those in California.
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Old 12-27-2012, 2:13 AM
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Well said Erik!
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Old 12-27-2012, 2:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goosebrown View Post
I want to add that there is not going to be a repeal of the 2nd Amendment. To Amend the Constitution you need 38 states to ratify the change. (Or have a constitutional convention which is not going to happen.)

I will bet anyone here $1 that Arizona, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Arkansas, Missouri, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, South Carolina, and North Carolina will never ever vote for a change to the 2nd Amendment. That makes 15 states at least, and I bet there are a lot more like Alaska that wouldn't vote for a change. The effort to change the 2nd would be a grist mill for the anti's money and it would never work.

I think we are going to see California like laws nationwide, but nothing more.
I highly doubt you'd even get 1 state with over 50% of the voting population vote to repeal the 2A. Keep in mind only 6 states DON'T have RKBA in their state constitutions, no state has EVER repealed their amendment.
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Calgunner739 View Post
What I want to see is those states you listed, to stand up to the Feds and refuse any further restrictions on firearms similar to those in California.
Alaska, Arizona, Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, South Dakota, and Tennessee appear to already have via the Firearms Freedom Act.

http://firearmsfreedomact.com/state-by-state/
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:35 PM
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Personally, I think we will see little to no legislation out of Washington that restricts gun rights. Far more likely that Obama will issue EO's as he has some latitude there.

Even with that, I think it highly unlikely he would try to ban "assault weapons" by feature with an EO. I just don't think he'd try, nor do I think it would withstand a legal challenge.

Feinstein's proposed legislation is dead on arrival. Nothing will come of it.

Nevertheless, there is still quite a lot Obama can do via EO that would cause us grief and I think many, if not most of his orders would withstand a legal challenge.

Here at the state level, it will get a bit ugly, though I still see NO WAY they can outright confiscate our evil black guns.

It's the same issues they faced with the bill last year. They don't have the money to do a buy back, and they can't legally confiscate without reasonable compensation.

If they REALLY and TRULY want to get rid of evil black rifles here in CA, they only have one path open to them. They have to grandfather in all existing rifles, thereby adding probably a cool million rifles to the assault weapons registry. They then ban them anew.

Down side is no new ones get in the state, but for those of us who already own them, we get to take off our bullet buttons and mail them to the good senator's office.
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Old 12-27-2012, 1:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Merkava_4 View Post
All the liberal congressmen and senators are trying to figure out a way to repeal the 2nd Amendment. We're headed towards the 2nd civil war.
I hate big government and think our country has been heading down the wrong path for a long time. But this kind of quote just drives me insane. Do you know how difficult it is to repeal a constitutional amendment? Take a moment to read the OP brilliant post and learn to read between the lines of what the Bloomidiots and Frankensteins are saying. Sure, in their ultimate utopian world all guns in the hands of civilians would be banned. But they know that they have no hope of this world happening.

Remember, they only say these things to get these kind of reactions out of people. They want you and others to talk of civil war. That way they can plaster your words all over the media and say "look at this crazy gun owner". Believe me, if this country is to enter into a second civil war it will be many issues that get us there.
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Old 12-27-2012, 2:18 PM
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Originally Posted by The Geologist View Post
Alaska, Arizona, Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, South Dakota, and Tennessee appear to already have via the Firearms Freedom Act.

http://firearmsfreedomact.com/state-by-state/
I saw this referenced a few days ago. It's nice, but from what I can see that only affects homemade firearms or those made and sold in that single state. That is a small minority.

How would that affect an AR-15 that had a componet manufactured in another state (The upper, sights, forward grip, collapsable stock, etc. was made in another state)?
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Old 12-27-2012, 2:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Calplinker View Post
Personally, I think we will see little to no legislation out of Washington that restricts gun rights. Far more likely that Obama will issue EO's as he has some latitude there.

Even with that, I think it highly unlikely he would try to ban "assault weapons" by feature with an EO. I just don't think he'd try, nor do I think it would withstand a legal challenge.

Feinstein's proposed legislation is dead on arrival. Nothing will come of it.

Nevertheless, there is still quite a lot Obama can do via EO that would cause us grief and I think many, if not most of his orders would withstand a legal challenge.

Here at the state level, it will get a bit ugly, though I still see NO WAY they can outright confiscate our evil black guns.

It's the same issues they faced with the bill last year. They don't have the money to do a buy back, and they can't legally confiscate without reasonable compensation.

If they REALLY and TRULY want to get rid of evil black rifles here in CA, they only have one path open to them. They have to grandfather in all existing rifles, thereby adding probably a cool million rifles to the assault weapons registry. They then ban them anew.

Down side is no new ones get in the state, but for those of us who already own them, we get to take off our bullet buttons and mail them to the good senator's office.
I know you meant well, but I just can't stand it when grandfathering is talked about in a positive or acceptable way as a compromise. It's winning a battle, but sacrificing the war. You get to keep your rifle, but everyone one else somehow loses that right to bear arms.

We don't want to minimize the amount of people that can enter the gun community. We want to be as open and helpful as possible to newcomers. We need to actively help new shooters into the community.

Otherwise we end up like Australia where the gun community was widdled away until eventually only the old guys with their grandfathered rifles were left and the extreme majority of the population were unfamiliar/FUD with firearms, which gave the gun community no support. The gun community needs public support. We have strength in numbers. We cannot be marginalized.
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Old 12-27-2012, 2:28 PM
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Erik,

Very well said. I think we all need to step back, take a deep breath, and support (finacially or by volunteering, or in some way) those groups that defend our rights for us. And calm down, and not panic. We have a bright future.

One reason I beleive that is all of the recent legal battles that have gone our way. Heller, McDonald, and all of the other smaller cases. And whether you support allowing teaching with CCW's to carry or not in GFSZ's, the simple fact that this is even being discussed in mainstream media is actually a good sign (IMHO). Firearms might JUST be starting to shed the negative image; i.e., guns are BAD.
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Old 12-27-2012, 3:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calgunner739 View Post
I know you meant well, but I just can't stand it when grandfathering is talked about in a positive or acceptable way as a compromise. It's winning a battle, but sacrificing the war. You get to keep your rifle, but everyone one else somehow loses that right to bear arms.

We don't want to minimize the amount of people that can enter the gun community. We want to be as open and helpful as possible to newcomers. We need to actively help new shooters into the community.

Otherwise we end up like Australia where the gun community was widdled away until eventually only the old guys with their grandfathered rifles were left and the extreme majority of the population were unfamiliar/FUD with firearms, which gave the gun community no support. The gun community needs public support. We have strength in numbers. We cannot be marginalized.
yes, the long run, my friend.
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Old 12-27-2012, 3:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Stubby View Post
Do you know how difficult it is to repeal a constitutional amendment?

No I don't. Please explain it to me because I've been going to bed angry every night and I'm having trouble getting enough sleep.
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Old 12-27-2012, 4:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Merkava_4 View Post
All the liberal congressmen and senators are trying to figure out a way to repeal the 2nd Amendment. We're headed towards the 2nd civil war.
It takes a vote of 3/5 of the state legislatures to do that and you KNOW that just ain't gonna happen.
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Old 12-27-2012, 4:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Corbin Dallas View Post
Erik, That is the best piece written here in years. As I've told our local IDPA members and fellow shooters. Stick to the facts and act professional. Leave your personal feelings out of it and do NOT sink to their level with emotional responses and fear mongering.
Nothing like THAT would ever happen here at CalGuns!
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Old 12-27-2012, 4:56 PM
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yes, the long run, my friend.
I am only 21 years old. haha
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Old 12-27-2012, 5:14 PM
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The Second is still a highly undefined right, even after Heller and McDonald. I've never been one for hysteria and fear mongering, but I think its a mistake to conclude on the basis of those two decisions were are guaranteed to be able to own the sorts of weapons we are accustomed to. Targeted bans are still possible along with significant restrictions on travel, use and storage as well as ownership requirements. They will be litigated and we may win, but that would be years down the road. We might also lose. We cannot take for granted that AR's and detachable mags are now part of the 2A guarantee.

Another issue involves grandfathering and transfer bans. I still cannot understand how it is possible that I can own a RAW because I acted at a point in time, but that another fully enfranchised citizen cannot acquire a RAW, even from a fixed supply. Clearly my rights are superior to many of my fellow citizens. How does that comport with equal protection guarantees? I can't see how, yet, the situation exists and has for many years and I am unaware and any likely pending reversal.

I think the only prudent posture us with respect to dealing with proposed or pending bills is to fight them as hard as we ever have and take nothing for granted. If recent court decisions help us, fine. But to take that they will as an article of faith at this point seems foolish.

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Old 12-27-2012, 8:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Window_Seat View Post
The Second Amendment, and the opinions in Heller and McDonald will ABSOLUTELY not allow confiscation or deprivation of the right against the law-abiding without a war, so all of this talk about lawmakers wanting to confiscate and ban is a laughable proposition that would have the Supreme Court Justices ready to bust their gavels.
Heller and McDonald are a heartbeat and a Senate vote away from being overturned. If any of the SCOTUS members who affirmed those decisions dies, the Narcissist in Chief will appoint an anti-2A crazed lunatic to take his place. Maybe Chuckie Schumer?

Step one: attempt to force everyone to register their weapons as NFA firearms, complete with the $200 tax (or maybe higher).

Step two: overturn Heller and McDonald, and then issue an Executive Order.

And that's if "they" want to do it with a semblance of legality.

The Second Amendment is its own guarantee...but only if good men & women are willing to implement it when the dark day comes.
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Old 12-27-2012, 8:30 PM
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Old 12-27-2012, 8:30 PM
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Old 12-27-2012, 8:31 PM
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I want to add that there is not going to be a repeal of the 2nd Amendment. To Amend the Constitution you need 38 states to ratify the change. (Or have a constitutional convention which is not going to happen.
You don't need to formally repeal the Second Amendment, merely "interpret" it out of existence. After all, plain English doesn't really mean "shall not be infringed." Gun control is doubleplusgood.

The NFA, GCA, AWB, and whatever other obscenity the Federal regime will decree are and will be patently and plainly unconstitutional.
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Old 12-27-2012, 8:49 PM
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Did any of you watch Obamas vid response to the White House petitions?

I'll summarize. "Please know that i fully believe in the 2nd Am and your right to bear arms. I first demonstated that belief in launching measures to take away assault weapons and hi-cap mags. I intend to further demonstrate my full belief in the 2nd Am and the safety of your children by a comprehensive (ban). I wanted legislation by January and so this will be the priority of my tenure as we go forward in early 2013. Thank you so much for taking time on the petitions, believe me we hear you."

I wonder whose side the military is taking at this moment as ridiculous and absurd statements like that push us closer to civil war.
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Old 12-27-2012, 8:55 PM
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What you guys forget or over look is how california's assault weapons ban was passed.

It was passed not on the premise that it would or would not infringe on your 2A rights. They addressed it as a public safety issue. and said the the class of weapon listed as assault weapons are a threat to public safety. that right there will get more leverage then any anti 2A fight going.
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Old 12-27-2012, 9:03 PM
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Did any of you watch Obamas vid response to the White House petitions?

I'll summarize. "Please know that i fully believe in the 2nd Am and your right to bear arms. I first demonstated that belief in launching measures to take away assault weapons and hi-cap mags. I intend to further demonstrate my full belief in the 2nd Am and the safety of your children by a comprehensive (ban). I wanted legislation by January and so this will be the priority of my tenure as we go forward in early 2013. Thank you so much for taking time on the petitions, believe me we hear you."
What is truly sad is that I am not so sure he doesn't believe his textbook doublethink is disingenuous.

Consider the Constitution of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics - "rights" and "freedoms" of Soviet citizens:

http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/...02.html#chap07
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Old 12-27-2012, 9:05 PM
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They can take them away. They'll chip away bit by bit. It's already started.
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