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  #1  
Old 04-04-2013, 4:17 PM
jojo8080 jojo8080 is offline
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Default Naval jelly for parkerizing phosphate

Looking to homebrew up some parkerizing solution for a 1919 right sideplate
All I can find is some locktite naval jelly
Msds shows
Phosphoric acid 10-30%
Phosphate ester
Isopropyl alcohol

Polysacharide proprietary
Sulphuric acid .1-1%

I'm not sure anout the polysacharide or sulphuric acid going into the park solution or any negative effects the other chemicals will have.
Wished I could find it pure but if this will work I'll be happy

http://ramproducts.chemtel.net/msds/XBA441423.pdf
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Old 04-04-2013, 4:25 PM
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Have you tried a local big box hardware store? Masonry supply house? Ace hardware store? Tile supply? Construction supply?

They all have what you need. I don't think the Naval Jelly will work well....but if you do try it, post up results.
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  #3  
Old 04-04-2013, 4:41 PM
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Is this a final finish or prep for a spray on finish? Navel jelly is ok for prep, Ospho works way better but nothing like that is suitable as a final finish.
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Old 04-04-2013, 5:12 PM
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Here is a product on Eghey, this is for a dark finnish (manganese) not Zinc.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parkerizing-...0cbe44&vxp=mtr

Note: I have not used this product.
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Old 04-04-2013, 5:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJgunguy24 View Post
Is this a final finish or prep for a spray on finish? Navel jelly is ok for prep, Ospho works way better but nothing like that is suitable as a final finish.
Since he was talking about parking, I figured he wanted to use it as the base for the park solution.

He'll probably bead or sandblast for prep, degrease, then dip in the park tank, then oil. use as is, or as a base coat for paint.
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Old 04-04-2013, 5:24 PM
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Cz has it right
Was going to do this as a parkerized finish
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Old 04-04-2013, 5:32 PM
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http://www.ospho.com/
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  #8  
Old 04-04-2013, 6:20 PM
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If you are going to mix your own, here is what I did:

Meeks carries Krud Kutter concrete etch/cleaner, you might have to ask them to order it for you. It is a 40% solution of phosphoric acid which is what you want to start with. No additives, just acid. The other materials are easily available also, pottery place can get you the mangenese powder for a couple bucks a pound, they use it for a glaze. Degreased steel wool and distilled water round out your mix.

I have posted my recipe, (which I got off the internet) here before, it is essentially the patent formula submitted by Parker when he first invented the process. Even like him, I use a ceramic coated pot to do some of my parkerizing for smaller items. (canning pot) I would think that a side plate would fit.

If that is what you are interested in doing I will repost the ingredients and how I am using it.
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Old 04-04-2013, 6:49 PM
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Same basic thing I did, except for getting the manganese from old D cell batteries, because I'm a cheap *** and I don't throw anything away.

Also, for small parts, Home Depot and Lowes now sell a mud tray that's TIG welded stainless. Perfect for small receivers and small parts. Next project I'm doing is a FAL receiver, and it'll take that easily.

Oh, and I used KleenStrip metal prep. I've also used tile cleaner...can be cheaper. I used to use the tile cleaner to set up acid tanks for large car panels like doors and hoods. Works great!
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Last edited by Czechsix; 04-04-2013 at 6:52 PM..
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  #10  
Old 04-04-2013, 8:21 PM
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Ok guys ill keep looking been to ace and Home Depot and no luck. I've got my maganese powder from axner.com for pottery stuff. Have an old brewing pot that's 5gallons that will fit it all

Another question. Has anyone ever added oil color paint to the grease/oil post park to pigment the finish
I have read where this helps replicate the green park (along with lanolin) but don't have any pictures
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  #11  
Old 04-04-2013, 8:32 PM
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Home Depot sells phosphoric acid. It is in the paint prep section by the paint stripper and acetone. It comes is quart bottles.

I tried to make zinc phosphate with no luck. I was using pennies for the zinc and because they are solid it takes a couple weeks to dissolve. You end up with a hollow copper shell of a penny after the zinc dissolves. I couldn't wait to keep adding pennies so I went out and bought park solution. It is much easier.
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Old 04-04-2013, 9:02 PM
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try adding copper for the green, and also try doing to oil bath in diesel instead of straight oil. It's something I have to try myself, but I've seen reports that both of those have worked.
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  #13  
Old 04-05-2013, 1:40 PM
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Use Klean Strip Prep and Etch, home depot has it, green liquid, used it several times and it works well. Make sure you replenish the water after you cook your parts.
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Old 04-05-2013, 4:24 PM
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Funny thing is after you do all that driving around and buy this chemical and that to MAYBE get the right mix to SORT OF get a coating and not ruin the firearm you could buy a pre mixed DIY kit for almost the same cost.

If you were talking about a difference of hundred of dolllars then maybe but we are talking cents. The most expensive part of Parkerizing is getting the right sized tank/pot to fit your parts into not the Parkizing solution (the cheapest item in Parkerizing). So yea if you want to risk your health and safety to hopefully mix all the chemicals correctly and HOPE to not produce a unstable solution to save a few cents ..... your freedom to do so.

The "pickling" solution should only be diluted Hydrochloric Acid to treat hard to coat Alloys before you Parkerize.
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Old 04-05-2013, 4:50 PM
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Hey ALEXS, I would like for you to repost you recipe, this is a very interesting do it yourself post, even if it is cheaper and less trouble to just buy a kit.
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Old 04-05-2013, 5:42 PM
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I will post it Sunday, I have a few things that I need to get done.

Beware though, only professionals should be doing this, non-professionals will instantly ignite themselves in a rapidly expanding ball of explosive HYDROGEN GAS!, burn themselves with ACID!, blister their grubby fingers by using HEAT!, boiling water can SCALD!, steel wool when pulled apart with a naked hands can CUT! ... Only a gunsmith is capable of achieving satisfactory results.

But back to reality... It is fun to do it yourself, you must be willing to try a few times to get your own quality results though. As with anything, you cannot get expert results the first time you try something new. (tried finishing concrete before?)

Yes there are some dangers involved with this, but then again there is risk in everyday life; I read that car tires driving on asphalt releases cancer causing agents, should we all be wearing respirators while driving? No, we understand that the risk is minimal and we need to drive if we are going to be productive.
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Old 04-05-2013, 6:33 PM
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Found the phosphate today at Home Depot thanks for the direction. Last time I was there no one could help me and I got tired of reading labked and doing the msds lookup on my phone.

A premis kit might be easier, but so is going to the gunshop and buying a rifle already done up. My curiosity has gotten to me and after doing the standard park kit mix for the ak's I wanted a finish that would match closely to the 1919. Once I get the chemistry down I'll do my uzi the same way. The mythical green park is something I'm determined to do
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Old 04-05-2013, 7:30 PM
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I tried a kit and it did not work that well. I looked on the internet and found a solution that uses prep and etch and the manganese powder and it came out a jet black. Make sure you degrease the steel wool thoroughly, brake cleaner and dawn, I use the LA's Awesome from the dollar store and that stuff is it, awesome. Watch the temp and try a part first. If it etches the metal and doesn't park, it needs more water, seriously, do a sacrificial part first, like a cleaned socket head cap screw, check the size first, cook for a while and then check it for finish and size, check the size with a mic or calipers. Mark the side of the pot before you heat it up and keep the water level at the mark, as the water boils off the acid level rises, it starts eating metal, 180-185 degrees is what worked best for me. Do not do this inside!

If you have enough manganese dioxide just dump the batch and start fresh the next time around. I have not had good results using a batch after it has been around a while, might just be my experience.

Good luck with that!
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:46 PM
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Good old Alex$ willing to insult anyone that talks about safety and warns people about any dangers because he loves to cause havoc.

This the same guy telling people to get Manganese Dioxide from used batteries without telling anyone that if the other chemicals in batteries get mixed into the Mag Dioxide you will produce toxic fumes when put into Phosphoric Acid.

Same guy that when something does go wrong he suddenly stops posting in the thread he was so generous in giving out info.

What to trust a anonymous poster who never wants to post his real information to stand behind what he says in case something goes wrong so you can go after him .... go ahead.

Everyone knows who and where I am so if I ever give out information for DIY ( which I am all for and give out information all the time, even people calling my shop) I make sure that it is given out with complete information with the safe way of doing things.

Look at his post ..... he is trying to tell you heating a acid close to the boiling point while you are standing near it is no more dangerous than rubber dust off tires. I am surprised he doesn't tell you guys to take the Parkerizing solution after you are done and add instant coffee to it to drink for a little extra kick.

Water boils at 212 F Parkerizing needs around 190 F to work correctly ..... does not take much error to have to high of a temp when adding water then get splashed with hot acid.

He even tells you wrong information right off the bat ..... Manganese Parkerizing Solutions only use Phosphoric Acid at a 10% to 20% strength in concentrate solutions ... he tells you 40% .... tells you how careful he is about the information he posts.

Parkerizing does give off Hydrogen gas (those bubbles you see coming off the metal) and yes if you are using his 40% solution in a enclosed space while using gas burners you might have a explosion.

There is only THREE (3) chemicals in Manganese Parkerizing Solution:
  • Phosphoric Acid
  • Manganese Dioxide
  • Iron Sulfate

that is it. Anything else is considered a contaminate and can affect the hardness, adhesion or color of the coating. These 3 chemicals are very easy to get online in pure form for cheap and over 60% (by weight) of what you put into the undiluted solution is the Manganese Dioxide.

In fact Parkerizing solution is so cheap that 1 pint of Brownells concentrated Zinc Parkerizing solution (finer grain) makes 4 gallons of solution for $20.00. They have some of the best solutions formulated for firearms and I have yet to have any of their solutions not do a very good job.

So the freedom to choose is simple ...... listen to someone who hides behind a anonymous name and posts information from Wikipedia or someone who does this stuff professionally and knows what will get you in trouble if done wrong.

Last edited by Gunsmith Dan; 04-05-2013 at 11:00 PM..
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Old 04-06-2013, 4:24 AM
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I'll be careful ALEX$, I just started doing my own anodizing, and I only spilled a little battery acid down my pants, killed the neighbors cat with the fumes and then blew one corner of my barn out. But the idea of DIY was worth it!
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Old 04-06-2013, 7:13 AM
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Keep trolling for business Dan. Don't let reality and facts get in your way. As promised I will post it tomorrow.

Posted from the road, God I hate trolls.
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Old 04-06-2013, 11:37 AM
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WOW the misinformation keeps rolling out of Alex$ ...... and I never attacked you in this post before you attacked me ...... wonder who really is the troll here.

News flash I don't do Parkerizing currently (not since I started Cerakoting).... so not sure what business I am trolling for when I tell people where to buy the solution and the safe way to do it.

Posters like you think that all DIY projects must be done in a dangerous manner and anyone wanting to warn people to be careful are ruining your fun.

You are the type of poster that loves to laugh at people following your faulty information and get hurt doing it then disappear behind your anonymous name.

You not the first and won't be the last that gets their sick kicks from the pain of others.

Like I said you guys have the freedom to follow a anonymous poster that loves to give out misinformation to screw with people (twice in this thread alone)...... or people that are out in the open giving you professional advice on how to do it safely and correctly so you get great results the first time.
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Old 04-06-2013, 3:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunsmith Dan View Post
You are the type of poster that loves to laugh at people following your faulty information and get hurt doing it then disappear behind your anonymous name.

You not the first and won't be the last that gets their sick kicks from the pain of others.
Wow.

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Old 04-06-2013, 5:22 PM
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See what you started jojo8080, cool aint it?
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Old 04-06-2013, 9:00 PM
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I don't think the mythical green park was on purpose. I recall reading somewhere some time ago that the green is from either a bad batch or incorrect batch of cosmoline that the guns were stored in, or it was improper storage, or just a reaction from the cosmoline over the years. the base park for those guns is not a manganese solution but a zinc solution. The zinc needs a bit more care as the zinc is more hazardous to your health.

Good luck with that project though.
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Old 04-06-2013, 9:03 PM
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I'll post pictures when I get around to parking and trying different post treatments (bag balm, diesel, straight oil)

Perhaps I'll just keep it over at weaponsguild to avoid the ad hominem attacks, I don't want anyone getting their knickers in a bunch
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Old 04-06-2013, 9:09 PM
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Post was for f100rat

Hoagiem. I heard it was from high lanolin content and zink reacting. I don't think we will ever get a true answer. I'm only concerned with how to make a new part match the patina of my other unrestored kit parts

Best bet I've heard so far is to mix in some oil paint into the grease you use post park to match the color you want. I'll probably do this with the bag balm and see
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Old 04-07-2013, 2:05 PM
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Firstly, apologies to you jojo8080 for having Dan crap all over your thread, trust me you aren't the first one he has crapped on though.

I will deal with Dan first, then will post the recipe and method I used as promised.

Dan:
"Good old Alex$ willing to insult anyone that talks about safety and warns people about any dangers because he loves to cause havoc.

This the same guy telling people to get Manganese Dioxide from used batteries without telling anyone that if the other chemicals in batteries get mixed into the Mag Dioxide you will produce toxic fumes when put into Phosphoric Acid.

Same guy that when something does go wrong he suddenly stops posting in the thread he was so generous in giving out info.

What to trust a anonymous poster who never wants to post his real information to stand behind what he says in case something goes wrong so you can go after him .... go ahead."


One of three things is happening here: You have confused me for someone else; your reading comprehension is lacking; you are a liar. I have never told anyone to disassemble a battery to reclaim anything.

I stopped posting in other threads because you continued a personal attack on me to the detriment of that thread, I explained I wouldn't post any more because you were the source of distraction. And then I stopped posting, I am a man of my word.


Look at his post ..... he is trying to tell you heating a acid close to the boiling point while you are standing near it is no more dangerous than rubber dust off tires. I am surprised he doesn't tell you guys to take the Parkerizing solution after you are done and add instant coffee to it to drink for a little extra kick.

Water boils at 212 F Parkerizing needs around 190 F to work correctly ..... does not take much error to have to high of a temp when adding water then get splashed with hot acid.

He even tells you wrong information right off the bat ..... Manganese Parkerizing Solutions only use Phosphoric Acid at a 10% to 20% strength in concentrate solutions ... he tells you 40% .... tells you how careful he is about the information he posts.

Parkerizing does give off Hydrogen gas (those bubbles you see coming off the metal) and yes if you are using his 40% solution in a enclosed space while using gas burners you might have a explosion.

There is only THREE (3) chemicals in Manganese Parkerizing Solution:
Phosphoric Acid
Manganese Dioxide
Iron Sulfate


Your reading comprehension skills need improvement Dan. I simply emphasized that there is inherent risk in any activity we are involved in, even driving.

I recommended that he start with a 40% solution of Phosphoric acid, obtained by buying Krud Kutter Clean and Etch, at no time did I advise he use that concentration for the process. He started this thread looking for a product that had the proper dilution of acid to work with.

Then I stated I would post more information Sunday as I was on my way out the door going out of town. Here I am posting information and defending myself from an obvious troll who lacks basic reading comprehension at best, at worst is a liar.

At no time did I advise anyone to not be careful when dealing with material that can be dangerous to their well being. That you can reach such a conclusion further underscores your lack of reading comprehension.

A large segment of this sub forum are do-it-yourself type people who do gunsmith projects for fun.

=============

How to Parkerize at home without buying a premixed kit.

First the bad news: Use this information at your own risk, should you decide to try this, be aware that some of this could be dangerous to your health. Know what the dangers are and you can minimize that risk, but your health and safety is not assured.

You should have proper personal protective equipment when handling acid, this includes gloves that are chemically resistant, nitrile gloves will give you short term protection from acid, I would recommend heavy rubber gloves for both acid resistance as well as handling hot metal parts. Eye protection is recommended as is having plenty of fresh water to wash with in case you have a problem with acid. (it also helps if there is a fire) I keep a hose ready and a bucket of clean water for washing with.

You will need to be careful when diluting acid as if you do it incorrectly you can have a bad exothermic reaction. Always mix acid to water, not water to acid.

You will need a heat source to attain and maintain a consistent 190 degrees F. Depending on your setup you will need a way to measure the temperature as well. I use a 3 burner propane stove outside and a candy thermometer.

Below are the basic ingredients I have personally used, feel free the change it as fits your situation. All ingredients and tools were locally sourced, either from Walmart, Meeks, pottery supply, grocery store or my garage.

For my own set up I targeted having 3 gallons of manganese phosphate solution on hand. I built a tank that holds 3 gallons, I store in a 3 gallon jug between uses. (available in automotive section at WalMart, used motor oil container)

My ingredients:
1 quart Krud Kutter Clean and Etch http://www.krudkutter.com/index.php?...id=7&Itemid=63
4 gallons distilled water
4 ounces mangenese dioxide powder
4 coarse steel wool pads (must be degreased)

Appropriate tanks might include all stainless steel or any acid resistant tank capable of holding and heating acid for long periods of time. Stainless is nice, but expensive. For my personal set up I used a large canning pot for smaller parts and initially mixing the solution. (canning pots are ceramic coated) I then made a tank from aluminum flashing folded into a tank that will hold 3 gallons, it was then coated on the inside with silicone to make it acid resistant. Whatever you decide to use, ensure it will be sturdy enough to be safe, and it will hold the amount of liquid you intend to use.

Mixing solution

Mixing directions are as follows:

For a single gallon:
1 gallon distilled water
8 ounces Krud Kutter
1 ounce mangenese dioxide
1 coarse steel wool pad (degreased)

I put 3 gallons of distilled water into canning pot, started heating it to 150 degrees. (measured with a candy thermometer) Once up to temp. added 24 ounces Krud Kutter and stirred. Added mangenese powder and stirred completely. Not all the powder will disolve, expect some to still be visible.

I kept these ingredients at 150 for 15 minutes then added 3 steel wool pads that were degreased. (both Simple Green and mineral spirits) I kept the pads under with a long handled plastic spoon until they were almost gone, about 20 minutes. At this point the solution can be used for phosphating.

I found over time and several rifles that I got better results after mixing up a fourth gallon of solution and allowing some water to evaporate making 3 gallons at a higher concentration. I would recommend you start with the above mix and play with the concentration so you get results you are happy with.

That about covers sourcing and mixing your solution, if you have interest I can expand on any part you would like to know more about including prep and phosphating.

Hope you find it of use, once again, understand the dangers and do everything you can to mitigate them.

Last edited by Alex$; 04-07-2013 at 2:07 PM..
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Old 04-07-2013, 4:09 PM
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Very well written, sounds only a little more dangerous then anodizing.
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