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Old 10-30-2012, 4:45 PM
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Default AAR: Ken Hackathorn 2-Day Advanced Handgun on October 27-28, 2012 in Chino, CA

Class: Ken Hackathorn Advanced Handgun
Instructor: Ken Hackathorn
Cost: $450.00
Date: October 27-28, 2012
Location: Prado Olympic Shooting Park in Chino, CA
Students: 20 (mix of mostly civilians and some LEO)
Ammo used: 500 rounds

Another great class with the great Ken Hackathorn. Unfortunately, no low light due to range restrictions (great injustice as Ken mentioned) and 4 more than the maximum number of students advertised (16).

Ken is the master instructor who has been doing this for 35 years with a variety of military, law enforcement and civilian customers! A founder of IPSC/USPSA and IDPA as well as 3-Gun (Soldier of Fortune matches in the early 1980s). His techniques and methods have been oft copied by many others. He’s ever on the cutting edge and has been wrong plenty of times as well.

According to Ken to be an instructor you need to have knowledge, be an evangelist, part snake oil salesman and a good businessperson.

This was my second advanced handgun with Ken (first one back on January 2011 [AAR]) and there were many new drills although the premise for the training and goals remain the same.

Ken sets up the reasons for his methods and training. He gives you what you need and not what you want so there’s a lot that perhaps the uninitiated think is missing. His instruction follows a building block approach.

• Gun fights in the real world occur at 10 yards or less (only 5%-10% at ranges beyond 10 yards)
• In the real world there is no firing line and you’re being shot at
• More than 80% of all gunfights occur at low light
• In a shooting which comprise 90% of all incidents 1-3 rounds are fired whereas in a gunfight (1-3 bad guys) you empty your weapon
• When gunfights start shooters move and resort to strong hand only (case in point NYPD Empire State Building shooting two months ago)
• In real life prone and kneeling handgun shooting is rare
• Ammo arguments are moot since it’s all about shot placement. Ken is a proponent of the 9mm and .45 calibers for pistols but not the .40 caliber (caliber looking for a solution).
• Ready positions used: high, low or SUL. These are situationally dependent.
• Sending slide home on a slide lock: use the thumb (Ken uses his left thumb like Larry Vickers)
• In most cases, SWAT usually deals with one bad guy whereas the patrolman most times deals with multiple threats
• The gunfight cycle: Vision, decision and action.
• Ken is not a fan of dry fire unless you’re a beginner
• Most stoppages in real life are operator induced
• Red dots on pistol is not there yet
• Practice to push yourself out of your comfort zone in order to improve
• Know the limits of competitive shooting and associated training scars

Ken apologized for not having any low light evolutions due to range restrictions. It’s very important for the organizers of Ken’s classes to have low light like we did back in January 2011.

Over two thirds of the class used a Glock with a few M&P, XDM and 1911 thrown in. The students were mostly at an advanced level following a 5 round assessment at the A-zone of USPSA targets (used throughout with the exception of a few drills using the NRA B-8 bullseye target). Due to the 20 students the class was divided into two relays of 10 students. When you’re not shooting you can observe the performance of other students.

Training Day 1

For safety assume that all pistols are loaded at all times. After that only two safety rules matter: finger straight (high on the ejection port) and muzzle awareness. Unless you’re firing a shot, you can break one or the other but never both. He likes an exaggerated follow through where you stay on the threat, follow it down and scan around (within 1 meter) for other threats. Do not block your view of the threat on anything you do like scanning or reloads. Scanning also defeats the tunneling effect of your vision in a gun fight.

For the draw push into the grip, pull out the pistol and drive to the target. For the stance just have your chin forward of the knees. For the grip have it in line with your forearm and as high up the tang and thumbs forward.

For the fundamentals of sight alignment and trigger control we went through Ken’s classic drills (oft copied) with unloaded pistols and a training partner. First one is where the partner balances a spent cartridge on your front sight and you pull the trigger without the brass falling down. Second is where you hold back the trigger and the partner racks the slide and you work on trigger reset. We did various live fire drills slow and fast. Another with live round and a partner is where you line up the sights while your partner press the trigger against your finger loosely on the trigger. When going live you allow recoil to rest the trigger for you.

To drive in the point that sight alignment is over-rated at 7 yards we aimed in with the front sight off to the left, right, up and down and the shot still landed within the USPSA C-zone (A-zone for the up and down).

Ken is all about giving you measurable drills. These are scored for time and for accuracy misses add to your time. These also should be done as part of your practice sessions. Push yourself out of your comfort zone to get better and keep track of your times / scores.

First one was the Bill Drill with 6 rounds from the draw at 7 yards in less than 5 seconds pass/fail. Every miss in most drills adds one second to your time (much stricter than IDPA’s half second).

For reloads we started with an empty pistol with the slide locked back. You attempt to fire and nothing happens. Bring pistol to work space below your eyes. Drop magazine and tilt the pistol so that you can see the magwell. As you’re doing that you bring in a new magazine (bullets facing forward) and momentarily look at the magwell to insert the mag followed by left or right thumb to release the slide (faster than power stroke where you grab the back of the slide and send it home).

Next measurable drill was the 1-2-3-4-5 drill at 10 yards from the draw with three targets about two yards apart being engaged left to right and then right to left. 1 round to target 1, 2 rounds to target 2, 3 rounds to target 3, 4 rounds to target 2 (once you’re finished with target 3 you move to target 2) and finally 5 on target 1. Pass/fail is 20 seconds with the same 1 second added for each miss. Even with a reload this is easy.

Next is El Presidente at 10 yards with 3 targets two yards apart with 6 rounds in your pistol. Face up range, turn, draw and two rounds on each target, slide lock reload and two rounds each target. Again a 20 second pass/fail with each miss adding one second to your time.

For shooting on the move remember that there’s no perfect sight picture. We practiced stationary by shooting while moving the pistol in circular and figure 8 patterns and shooting only when it was fairly well centered. Remember to move in a heel to toe fashion with the knees bent. Don’t turn your back to the threat and run. Instead retreat while facing them and shoot. We would start at an arm’s length from the target with an item in our support hand. On command, we would drop the item (it’s an item the bad guy wanted), retreat and draw and put rounds on target. Then, we also did this while retreating diagonally both left and then right.

Another measurable drill was to move forward from 10 yards with 4 rounds at target and reverse yourself with another 4 rounds on target all under 6 seconds (each miss adds 1 second).

We did the Flex Drill where we worked in pairs and on command one shooter at 5 yard line moving back and the other at 10 yards moving forward and both shooters engaging their targets. You stay in your lane. Dangerous perhaps but safe. The one yard rule applies with scanning.

The 1-2-3-4-5 was done again but this time the first three targets moving from 10 to 5 yards and the last two while retreating all in under 20 seconds again.

Same with the 6-round Bill Drill with a 5 seconds pass/fail moving forward and separately moving back.

We finished the day with more repetitions of the Bill Drill.
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Last edited by ramzar; 10-30-2012 at 7:49 PM.. Reason: Links
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Old 10-30-2012, 4:46 PM
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Training Day 2

We started the day with a great long lecture on low light shooting in lieu of the actual low light shooting the previous evening.

For flashlight use you need the sequence of: Locate, identify, engage and move.

For laser sights zero at 10 yards. He prefers the grip laser devices like Crimson Trace but the ones on weapon-mounted flashlights are fine as long the flashlight also turns on the laser at the same time.

Be careful with strong white LED light against white walls.

For engagements behind barricades use different hand, eye and technique for less exposure.

Although LED lights are more powerful, last longer and less prone to breakage the incandescent lights are more penetrating of smoke and dust – less reflection.

Ken really likes weapon-mounted lights and the SureFire X300 in particular. By the way, due to the introduction of the SureFire X300 Ultra the price on the X300 has dropped below $200! He thinks INFORCE is making great lights especially their WML for M4 rails.

He also likes flash-retardant coating on ammunition powder so as not to blind your eyesight momentarily at night.

Ken reinforced that he's giving you what you need in terms of training and that accuracy is the holy grail -- cover your hits with your hand at all ranges (of course Ken has Dr. J sized hands himself .

We started with a warm-up Bill Drill and then moving and shooting at 10 yards and in.

Next was lateral movement. Moving right is not an issue but moving left you have to resort to one-handed. Instead, he’s an advocate of taking side steps while facing the target. Remember not to shuffle or cross your feet. If the distances between targets is greater than a few of steps you can turn and run towards it and then do the shuffle again. Turning your sides to the target also has the disadvantage of exposing you to body armor weakness or having a bullet pass through two lungs. When shuffling bend your knees, the sights will be in a figure 8 motion and only move as fast as you can shoot effectively (hits to cover your hand). We did these going left and right and at ranges of 5, 7 and 10 yards.

The shuffle move was also done for the 1-2-3-4-5 drill with first three moving right and last two reversing it and moving left.

The box drill is another good measured drill. You start at 10 yards and fire 3 rounds moving forward, 3 rounds moving back, 3 rounds moving right and finally 3 rounds moving left. Once again 20 second pass/fail with each miss adding 1 second to your time.

We then got into Strong Hand Only (SHO) shooting which is very important since most shooting resort to just one hand being used (just in our nature). We also tried his method that works for some people. You bend your elbow slightly while tightening your bicep and forearm muscles. We practiced our own method and the new one getting good repetitions.

Next was the 1-2-3 drill with 18 rounds total with no time limit and you pass if you have no more than 6 misses. At 5 yards SHO: 1 head shot, 2 head shots and 3 head shots. At 10 yards SHO: 1 body shot, 2 body shots and 3 body shots. At 20 yards two hands or SHO: 1 body shot, 2 body shots and 3 body shots.

Next were the Hackathorn Test and Half-Test drills both using the NRA Bullseye B-8 target. The Test is done at 10 yards from any ready position you choose. You fire 10 rounds in under 10 seconds. Over 10 seconds you fail. You need 90+ points to pass. The Half-Test is at 5 yards with 10 rounds in under 5 seconds. If you go over 5 seconds or get less than 90 points you fail. By the way, these are typical speeds in gunfights.

To get you to shoot faster Ken likes the FAST drill by Todd Green. At 7 yards with 2 rounds loaded in your pistol you draw and put 2 rounds in the index card portion of the USPSA head box, slide lock reload and then 4 rounds into the body A-zone. Less than 7 seconds is a good time. We then did a version of this whereby after the reload we start retreating while delivering the 4 rounds to the body.

The Figure 8 drill by Scott Warren was next. You Figure 8 your way around two barrels shooting at one target from 10 yards. Shooting positions are in the middle and the sides of the barrels. You need to have situational awareness to not run into the barrels.

We did some Weak Hand Shooting (WHS) by placing our pistol with grip facing right (for a right-handed shooter), placing the right hand into the back of our belt, picking it up, orienting it for the weak hand and hitting the target several times. We also did this from a kneeling position.

We got into point shooting by taping over the front and rear sights of the pistol. We shot several rounds at 5-10 yards in increments of 1 yard and amazingly all shots land in mostly the A-zone. It’s effective at 10 yards and in. Make sure you follow through on all shots and focus on the target. As Ken says: “Sights are somewhat over-rated at shorter distances”. We did the Bill Drill with the sights taped while moving back. We did the Box Drill with 3 rounds in each position with the sights taped.

Next was the FBI LETTS drill on steel where we move forward 1-2 shots, right to another target with 1-2 shots, last target 1-2 shots also to the right. We did the reverse by moving left. Best to plant your feet to shoot after shuffling or walking and then shuffling. Several iterations. We did this both with the sights taped and then by removing the tape. Some shot faster with the tape on!

Another skill drill was at 10 yards moving to 5 yards with 3 in the body, at 5 yards 1 head shot SHO, moving back to 10 yards with 3 body shots and then at 10 yards another head shot SHO.

The next to the last drill was the snake drill which needed the SUL ready position. We practiced the SUL ready position and then we all did the snake drill dry. There are three shooters standing. You have three targets. You start by moving and engaging one of the outer targets from one side, snake your way through two shooters in SUL and engage the other side target, snake through two shooters and get the middle target at the end. Dangerous but safe. You get to see the shooter fire a few feet to your sides. Some misses due to “snatching the trigger” as Ken says. This drill brings a higher sense of awareness to most shooters and definitely out of your comfort zone.

Finally, Ken says never leave the range on a negative note so we all lined up in front of our targets (in relays) and shot really accurate groups.

Ken will be back for the same class in October 2013. Looking forward to it as well as hopefully some real night shoot next time.
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Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills.
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Last edited by ramzar; 10-30-2012 at 7:40 PM.. Reason: Added content...
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Old 10-30-2012, 4:51 PM
HighLander51 HighLander51 is offline
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yea, my buddy got hit with a full bullet! Just a flesh wound though........

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Old 10-30-2012, 4:54 PM
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yea, my buddy got hit with a full bullet! Just a flesh wound though........
Yes. Just a flesh wound. Great attitude on his part. Frag from ricochet on a marginal / over-used steel target.
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Old 10-30-2012, 5:54 PM
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Yes. Just a flesh wound. Great attitude on his part. Frag from ricochet on a marginal / over-used steel target.
I thought he was getting ready for Halloween!
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Old 10-30-2012, 6:03 PM
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I thought he was getting ready for Halloween!
We thought the same and suggested he keep the shirt as well as duct tape for tomorrow night.
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Old 10-30-2012, 6:06 PM
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He does have that 'Zombie' look, well, with sunglasses... On the other hand, he looks like that most of the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEGls...8&feature=plcp

ramzar, when are you going to come shoot with us at Norco Running Gun?

Last edited by HighLander51; 10-30-2012 at 6:13 PM..
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Old 10-30-2012, 6:22 PM
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ramzar, when are you going to come shoot with us at Norco Running Gun?
Haven't been to NRG in over a year. The problem with a lot of IDPA & USPSA venues in SoCal for me has been too little shooting over a long 6+ hour day plus the 2.5 hour round-trip commute. I'm going to GSSF at Piru this weekend since you're in and out in about an hour or so. I'll make an effort to get down to NRG one of these days. USPSA is quite useful in getting you to shoot fast.
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Old 10-30-2012, 6:25 PM
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How did the 25% increase in students affect the overall class?
Do you feel a discount of lets say 25% would make up for the "false" advertisement?
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Old 10-30-2012, 6:37 PM
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How did the 25% increase in students affect the overall class?
Do you feel a discount of lets say 25% would make up for the "false" advertisement?
A lot of drills are individually timed and Ken gives catered advise before and feedback after to each student. So, any time you add more students it takes away from additional drills per student.

Hopefully, since Alias Training is increasing their 2-day class fees from $450 to $525 in 2013 they'll hold the line at 15-16 students.

If we had just one relay of 12 students we would definitely get a lot more done. No doubt it in my mind.
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Last edited by ramzar; 10-30-2012 at 6:42 PM.. Reason: Link
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Old 10-30-2012, 6:42 PM
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Ramzar,

What reasons did he give for not dry firing once you are past beginner?

Thanks for your AAR.
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Old 10-30-2012, 6:45 PM
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Haven't been to NRG in over a year. The problem with a lot of IDPA & USPSA venues in SoCal for me has been too little shooting over a long 6+ hour day plus the 2.5 hour round-trip commute. I'm going to GSSF at Piru this weekend since you're in and out in about an hour or so. I'll make an effort to get down to NRG one of these days. USPSA is quite useful in getting you to shoot fast.
Well that is a problem with Prado IDPA, so don't go there. Come to Norco Running Gun instead.
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Old 10-30-2012, 6:56 PM
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Ramzar,

What reasons did he give for not dry firing once you are past beginner?

Thanks for your AAR.
No added benefit. Ken firmly believes that once you're in an intermediate and advanced stage you NEED to practice with live rounds at least once a month (like with the said drills in the AAR of about 100 rounds). Additionally, if you're not pushing yourself out of your comfort zone you won't get better. Measure and track your performance.
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Old 10-30-2012, 7:01 PM
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Well that is a problem with Prado IDPA, so don't go there. Come to Norco Running Gun instead.
Prado IDPA (now called SoCal Shooters) was notorious for long days and I stopped going 18 months ago. Even ISI Shootists and The Deadwood Boys are just too many shooters. I guess I should give Norco Running Gun another try.
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Old 10-30-2012, 7:51 PM
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As always, thanks for the great AAR Ram!
Quick question, I noticed in the other AAR thread that there was an agreement not to share anything about the curriculum or videos. Is that SOP?
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Old 10-30-2012, 7:54 PM
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As always, thanks for the great AAR Ram!
Quick question, I noticed in the other AAR thread that there was an agreement not to share anything about the curriculum or videos. Is that SOP?
Just no raw videos.
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Old 10-30-2012, 8:17 PM
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Thanks for the great AAR Ram.
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Old 10-31-2012, 7:23 AM
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A lot of drills are individually timed and Ken gives catered advise before and feedback after to each student. So, any time you add more students it takes away from additional drills per student.

Hopefully, since Alias Training is increasing their 2-day class fees from $450 to $525 in 2013 they'll hold the line at 15-16 students.

If we had just one relay of 12 students we would definitely get a lot more done. No doubt it in my mind.
I feel less bad now for not being able to take Ken's class. To add more students than advertised means less time given to each student which in turn means means lesser value for paying students especially on a shortened curriculum (no night shoot) class as this one.

Can someone from Alias Training comment on why this was done?
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Old 10-31-2012, 7:48 AM
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Thanks for the AAR Ram. What were some training scars or limitations in competition that Ken mentioned.
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Old 10-31-2012, 8:03 AM
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I feel less bad now for not being able to take Ken's class. To add more students than advertised means less time given to each student which in turn means means lesser value for paying students especially on a shortened curriculum (no night shoot) class as this one.
Regardless of the extra students (20 vs. 16), no night shoot and even lower round count than billed (500 vs. 800) you missed out on one of the best advanced handgun classes you're likely to take.
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Last edited by ramzar; 10-31-2012 at 8:32 AM.. Reason: Numbers and ammo
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Old 10-31-2012, 8:07 AM
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Thanks for the AAR Ram. What were some training scars or limitations in competition that Ken mentioned.
The case in point was one of his LEO students in another advanced handgun class who was a great shooter but kept emptying his pistol after every evolution like in competitive shooting. He actually slowed the class down and would complain that he wasn't ready and Ken would tell him to quit emptying his weapon. Of course, such a training scar could materialize in the field which would be far worse.

Ken want's you to know what you're consciously doing in competitive shooting that you wouldn't do in real life: dropping partial magazines, not use cover, etc.
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Last edited by ramzar; 11-13-2012 at 5:04 PM.. Reason: Want's not What's
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:00 AM
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Regardless of the extra students (20 vs. 16), no night shoot and even lower round count than billed (500 vs. 800) you missed out on one of the best advanced handgun classes you're likely to take.
I don't disagree with that hence feeling less bad. I still feel bad about missing this class.
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Old 10-31-2012, 11:40 AM
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An alternative for such classes is to take them in a different location if at all possible like on a vacation.

For instance, the Kyle Defoor 2-Day Advanced Pistol Class – Oct 20-21, 2012 - Frostproof, FL had only 12 students, they went through about 900 rounds and had a night shoot to boot. The same class in highly populated SoCal had 23 students, we only went through nearly 700 rounds and had no night shoot (range restrictions): Kyle Defoor Advanced Handgun - Sep. 22-23, 2012 in Chino, CA
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Old 11-12-2012, 4:46 PM
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Old 11-12-2012, 4:49 PM
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Old 11-12-2012, 7:04 PM
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im curious what is it you get out of this that you cant get off videos + practice + shooting USPSA matches every weekend?
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Old 11-12-2012, 7:11 PM
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Great AAR and excellent pics. Thanks for the detailed post.
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Old 11-12-2012, 7:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Hated View Post
im curious what is it you get out of this that you cant get off videos + practice + shooting USPSA matches every weekend?
This reminds me of why do you ride a Harley Davidson saw: "If I have to explain it to you, you probably wouldn't understand it anyways" But I'll try...

You don't get a detailed debriefing of techniques by a professional at matches (peer analysis perhaps and general comments from the peanut gallery but rarely truely useful info), with videos or unsupervised self practice.
Having a good instructor, with experience and an eye for details critic your performance is invaluable to improving overall or even specific performance issues with a firearm.
Watching someone else on a video do things is hardly a substitute for actual training. All quality videos I've seen have a disclaimer that their product is not a substitute for actual training with an instructor. While all the the things you listed Bobby have benefit and allow some improvement, for most of us (me included) having an instructor watch your technique and observe any deficiencies or areas needing improvement (or what you're doing right for that matter) is an invaluable tool.
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Old 11-12-2012, 7:49 PM
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im curious what is it you get out of this that you cant get off videos + practice + shooting USPSA matches every weekend?
For starters, tailored feedback and diagnostics. You also learn from such advise given to other students. There's more but the aforementioned is an essential ingredient.
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Old 11-12-2012, 8:34 PM
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"MossbergMan" & "ramzar" = Could not AGREE more !

imho:
Its like the difference from Internet Based Classes and In Class Lecture/Lab Classes.
Reason some classes are not taught web based, students just don't get the proper education.

Its not always about round count and just speed. These classes are education based and honestly I can care a ___ about round count.
You are paying to attend a class for the opportunity to learn, "sponge", and improve from being taught by THE BEST. Can't know or pass your failure point if you've never reached it.

Its like church or school, You go to listen to/hear/learn the message, but the real work happens after. You can always practice high volume shooting on your own, much better when those rounds go towards proper Training
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Old 11-13-2012, 5:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Bobby Hated View Post
im curious what is it you get out of this that you cant get off videos + practice + shooting USPSA matches every weekend?
I have also been asking myself the same questions. This training almost seems tempting but I just cant understand how my $500 will be well spent.

I think for people like us we are well past needing a class on how to shoot and move etc. I would likely benefit from some sort of class that teaches use of force or close quarters using a gun. Some training in tactics being educated on how to engage would possibly teach things I might not have thought about.

Standing in a line and shooting is hardly going to help those of us who shoot competition so I feel this is why we are hesitant. I still havent found the right class to where my money would be well spent. I did take a class 3 years ago after having shot just 1 USPSA match and I was bored. Now it would be really bad so I really would need to be challenged more.
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Old 11-13-2012, 7:36 AM
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Yes, those of you that shoot competition do not need to learn a thing. And certainly couldn't learn anything from an instructor of Hackenthorn's caliber. Nope can't be done.

No one can help those that are so blind they cannot see.

Now that is off my chest, let me address this issue of perceived benefit v. actual benefit of live fire, in person instruction. For some, I agree line shooting will not help you advance in most competitive arenas. However, lucky for us there are many different instructors covering many subjects regarding the Art of the Gun.

As there are many different levels of shooter from novice to experienced combat operator there are classes tailored to each need. As a professional instructor I seek training and attend one to two classes a year just to keep my skill set up to par and see different approaches to shooting problems. There are no "advanced" techniques there are only advanced applicaitons of the fundametals. Repetition is the Mother of all skills. I have rarely been "bored" attending even basic 4 day defensive HG classes with friends and family at Front Sight because of my mindset. Just because they give me 2 seconds to draw and shoot doesn't mean I take the full amount of time. I challege myself to, for example, to get the first shot fired or even have my both my shots fired before other shooters get their first shot off or have the tightest "one hole drill". Whatever "basic" is, it isn't a waste of time if you have the proper mindset.

You as a shooter/student need to assess your needs and seek training that you feel would benefit YOUR need(s). I've learned something from every class I've taken, even if it's not how to do something or just another way of accomplishing a task or skill set.

Bobby and Brian do you really think you wouldn't learn from likes Todd Jarret or Rob Leatham or any Grand Master willing to share their expertise? They offer classes,take one of them and post a detailed AAR for the rest of us evaluate their benefit to us.
Granted, some instructors can make any subject boring and those folks fade quickly as the word gets out. But a top tier instuctor like Ken Hackenthorn doesn't stay at the top because people don't learn from them.

If one is not interested in the martial side of shooting and want to concentrate on competitve theroy and techniques so be it. However if you don't think shooting on the move (box drills) wouldn't help you in USPSA, you'd be wrong. Of course if you're already a Grand Master USPSA....you have already reached the peak of performance. But if you're not a GM there is room for learning....from someone.

I think most shooters have a handgun, in this case, for self defense in addition to perhaps playing some gun games. I know I do. I've trained with Leatham on the competitive side and people like Gabe Suarez on the martial side of the coin.

So do your due diligence and seek the proper level of instruction for your needs.

Ram did a great job of explaining exactly what was covered in the class he took with Ken so others can assess their need and the possible benefit from that level/type of training.

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Old 11-13-2012, 12:24 PM
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Sumguy says "What can I learn from someone who was a founder of USPSA/IPSC that I can't at a USPSA match some DVD's and books?"

LOL

Dear Internet,

If you are going to troll a thread, you probably shouldn't troll the one thread that is about the guy that helped found the shooting sport you like to tout. Its like someone saying I take Jeet Kun Do classes and watched all of Bruce Lee's movies, what could I have possibly learned from actually taking a class instructed by Bruce Lee.

I used to think that perhaps they had a sliver of honest inquisitiveness but nope, 110% trolls.
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Old 11-13-2012, 3:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kempfer View Post
"What can I learn from someone who was a founder of USPSA/IPSC that I can't at a USPSA match some DVD's and books?"
I'd like to add: one of the founders of IDPA and 3-Gun to that list.

The answer to the question is: a helluva lot! One can never stop learning from other knowledgeable people.

Great AAR, as always, Ramzar. There's not much more to add to that.

Ken's class is in a league of it's own. Not a super high round count class but I learned so much from this one class than any other pistol class I have taken.

Ken not only teaches you how to employ a pistol in a defensive/realistic situation but provides the student a detailed roadmap of how to train on their own and improve their skill. This alone was well worth the price of admission.
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Last edited by HK35; 11-13-2012 at 3:59 PM..
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Old 11-13-2012, 4:28 PM
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Thanks for the excellent AAR!

Ken is one of the firearms trainers I really would like to take a class from. I dont think there isn't a shooter of any level that couldn't learn something from him.

Might have to take a trip down south next times Ken's there unless he comes to NorCal somehow.
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Old 11-13-2012, 5:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MossbergMan View Post
Yes, those of you that shoot competition do not need to learn a thing. And certainly couldn't learn anything from an instructor of Hackenthorn's caliber. Nope can't be done.

No one can help those that are so blind they cannot see.

Now that is off my chest, let me address this issue of perceived benefit v. actual benefit of live fire, in person instruction. For some, I agree line shooting will not help you advance in most competitive arenas. However, lucky for us there are many different instructors covering many subjects regarding the Art of the Gun.

As there are many different levels of shooter from novice to experienced combat operator there are classes tailored to each need. As a professional instructor I seek training and attend one to two classes a year just to keep my skill set up to par and see different approaches to shooting problems. There are no "advanced" techniques there are only advanced applicaitons of the fundametals. Repetition is the Mother of all skills. I have rarely been "bored" attending even basic 4 day defensive HG classes with friends and family at Front Sight because of my mindset. Just because they give me 2 seconds to draw and shoot doesn't mean I take the full amount of time. I challege myself to, for example, to get the first shot fired or even have my both my shots fired before other shooters get their first shot off or have the tightest "one hole drill". Whatever "basic" is, it isn't a waste of time if you have the proper mindset.

You as a shooter/student need to assess your needs and seek training that you feel would benefit YOUR need(s). I've learned something from every class I've taken, even if it's not how to do something or just another way of accomplishing a task or skill set.

Bobby and Brian do you really think you wouldn't learn from likes Todd Jarret or Rob Leatham or any Grand Master willing to share their expertise? They offer classes,take one of them and post a detailed AAR for the rest of us evaluate their benefit to us.
Granted, some instructors can make any subject boring and those folks fade quickly as the word gets out. But a top tier instuctor like Ken Hackenthorn doesn't stay at the top because people don't learn from them.

If one is not interested in the martial side of shooting and want to concentrate on competitve theroy and techniques so be it. However if you don't think shooting on the move (box drills) wouldn't help you in USPSA, you'd be wrong. Of course if you're already a Grand Master USPSA....you have already reached the peak of performance. But if you're not a GM there is room for learning....from someone.

I think most shooters have a handgun, in this case, for self defense in addition to perhaps playing some gun games. I know I do. I've trained with Leatham on the competitive side and people like Gabe Suarez on the martial side of the coin.

So do your due diligence and seek the proper level of instruction for your needs.

Ram did a great job of explaining exactly what was covered in the class he took with Ken so others can assess their need and the possible benefit from that level/type of training.

You listed all competition shooters. Yes, those guys are the best of the best. They prove that every time the squash all the others at a match. That is our point here so not sure what point you were trying to make. One of our A class shooter friends was in that class and I look forward to asking him what he thought of it. I dont care what the newbie guys think because all they do is take classes and think they can shoot. The competition guys that can already shoot need to be challenged and if they learned something in the class then that means something to me.

By the way, where do you compete at?

Last edited by Brian1979; 11-13-2012 at 5:27 PM..
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  #38  
Old 11-13-2012, 6:26 PM
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Quote:
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One of our A class shooter friends was in that class and I look forward to asking him what he thought of it. The competition guys that can already shoot need to be challenged and if they learned something in the class then that means something to me.
I'm also interested in knowing what your A class shooter friend thought of the class and what his objective / reasoning was to attend the class -- preferably in his own words.
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Old 11-13-2012, 6:49 PM
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Yes, I compete and shoot USPSA, IDPA,GSSF and NRA PPC. I hold World, National, State and Regional titles (although some accomplishments are dated).
I know the competitive side and the tactical side of shooting and have been doing it for a little over 27 years.
I currently spend most of my time sharing my knowledge and experience with others.

Any other questions?
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Old 11-13-2012, 6:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MossbergMan View Post
Yes, I compete and shoot USPSA, IDPA,GSSF and NRA PPC. I hold World, National, State and Regional titles (although some accomplishments are dated).
I know the competitive side and the tactical side of shooting and have been doing it for a little over 27 years.
I currently spend most of my time sharing my knowledge and experience with others.

Any other questions?
When do you want to come out and shoot? Are you near by Norco?
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