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  #1  
Old 10-15-2012, 12:17 PM
tackdriver tackdriver is offline
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Default stop signs on private property parking ltos

Are stop signs located on parking lots (sears, walmart etc..) enforceable or are they just a recommendation...
thx
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Old 10-15-2012, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tackdriver View Post
Are stop signs located on parking lots (sears, walmart etc..) enforceable or are they just a recommendation...
thx
It depends, a lot of larger shopping centers have signs at the entrance's that have wording similar to Vehicle Code enforced by local PD. Some cities actually require those signs and include local parking ordinances.
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Old 10-15-2012, 12:55 PM
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they are either for your safety or to allow better flow from another direction

if a cop wants to give you a ticket for it nothing would stop them

but you could fight it in court and ask for a traffic survey and all the other type of information and it would probably get dismissed die to them not providing you the proper paperwork
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Old 10-15-2012, 1:06 PM
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Originally Posted by P5Ret View Post
It depends, a lot of larger shopping centers have signs at the entrance's that have wording similar to Vehicle Code enforced by local PD. Some cities actually require those signs and include local parking ordinances.
This. If the sign is there your vehicle and your actions must still abide by the same rules as on a public street. this includes parking violations, moving violations, window tent, brake lights out, ect. However, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, some offenses can be enforced regardless, like DUI, hit and run, ect.
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Old 10-15-2012, 1:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tackdriver View Post
Are stop signs located on parking lots (sears, walmart etc..) enforceable or are they just a recommendation...
thx
For them to be enforceable there must be proper signage at the entrances to the lot.

I used to regularly blow a private property stop sign in Camarillo in the early 90s. It was a semi-common spot for the local Ventura County deputies to sit and write reports. They learned pretty quickly that any ticket they wrote there wasn't going to stick due to lack of signage.

Signs in parking lots are generally pretty useful, but the sign I mention above was completely pointless....which is why anyone who lived there constantly blew through it. It was a slightly curving road with a stop sign at the apex - no intersection at all.
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Old 10-15-2012, 1:26 PM
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Stoptional.
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  #7  
Old 10-15-2012, 2:06 PM
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Only a few specific VCs are applicable on private property.

When I am working up a traffic report I refer to them as nonregulatory traffic control devices.
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Old 10-15-2012, 2:54 PM
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A traffic survey needs to be conducted prior to any traffic control sign or device can be erected. Why do you think the city, county, or state doesn't automatically install stop signs or speed bumps when the residents complain?

Sure, there are cities who put up stop signs because they think it is needed, but they are unenforceable in court.

Onto the private property signs. If you had an accident on private property and there is no injury to any persons, the police would defer you to exchange information and go on with your lives. They do not come out and take a report and determine fault. It is unenforceable under normal circumstances. Most property owners put up the CVC signs to make people think the signs are official.
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Old 10-15-2012, 4:26 PM
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ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Are there actually guys here that pull T-Stops on Private Property?!!! VC is enforcible only on private property in the case of 23103 or 23152 CVC. The signs on PP are merely a request and are not enforceable.
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Old 10-15-2012, 8:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NytWolf View Post
A traffic survey needs to be conducted prior to any traffic control sign or device can be erected. Why do you think the city, county, or state doesn't automatically install stop signs or speed bumps when the residents complain?

Sure, there are cities who put up stop signs because they think it is needed, but they are unenforceable in court.

Onto the private property signs. If you had an accident on private property and there is no injury to any persons, the police would defer you to exchange information and go on with your lives. They do not come out and take a report and determine fault. It is unenforceable under normal circumstances. Most property owners put up the CVC signs to make people think the signs are official.
Interesting. Are these surveys something we can request for fighting tickets, even if they happen on public roadways?
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  #11  
Old 10-15-2012, 8:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ak_in_ca View Post
The signs on PP are merely a request and are not enforceable.
I've run across some shopping centers that have some agreement with local traffic enforcment to enforce the CVC on their private property and under those circumstances I think stop signs, speed limits etc are indeed enforceable.
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  #12  
Old 10-15-2012, 9:00 PM
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Originally Posted by P5Ret View Post
It depends, a lot of larger shopping centers have signs at the entrance's that have wording similar to Vehicle Code enforced by local PD. Some cities actually require those signs and include local parking ordinances.
This is the best summation. It the streets within the mall are "dedicated" to the city, they are 100% enforceable. Lakewood Center Mall is one such place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
they are either for your safety or to allow better flow from another direction

if a cop wants to give you a ticket for it nothing would stop them

but you could fight it in court and ask for a traffic survey and all the other type of information and it would probably get dismissed die to them not providing you the proper paperwork
Not completely accurate. Traffic surveys are usually only used for speed postings. Stop signs and such can be posted by city ordinance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NytWolf View Post
A traffic survey needs to be conducted prior to any traffic control sign or device can be erected. Why do you think the city, county, or state doesn't automatically install stop signs or speed bumps when the residents complain?

Sure, there are cities who put up stop signs because they think it is needed, but they are unenforceable in court.

Onto the private property signs. If you had an accident on private property and there is no injury to any persons, the police would defer you to exchange information and go on with your lives. They do not come out and take a report and determine fault. It is unenforceable under normal circumstances. Most property owners put up the CVC signs to make people think the signs are official.
Very inaccurate

Quote:
Originally Posted by ak_in_ca View Post
ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Are there actually guys here that pull T-Stops on Private Property?!!! VC is enforcible only on private property in the case of 23103 or 23152 CVC. The signs on PP are merely a request and are not enforceable.
I've made some good arrests based on stops on mall streets.

DUI s enforceable almost anywhere.
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  #13  
Old 10-15-2012, 9:01 PM
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Basic speed law applies as prima facia for private property is 5-10mph, no survey needed. A least that was what I was told in radar school. I have a feeling most traffic commissioners would throw out any tags for going 35 in a mall parking lot.

Reckless also applies to private property which may apply if someone is running stop signs and possibly endangering others.
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  #14  
Old 10-15-2012, 9:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rackem1899 View Post
Interesting. Are these surveys something we can request for fighting tickets, even if they happen on public roadways?
Yes. You can request them with a discovery via the CHP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
Not completely accurate. Traffic surveys are usually only used for speed postings. Stop signs and such can be posted by city ordinance.
Negative. I have a BIL who works for CalTrans. Traffic flow signs require traffic surveys or studies. Those without the survey or studies are unenforceable. The law enforcement may have a different thought, but when it comes down to the basics of the law, they are unenforceable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
Very inaccurate
How so? I'd like to know.

Last edited by NytWolf; 10-15-2012 at 9:38 PM..
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  #15  
Old 10-15-2012, 9:45 PM
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Surveys are needed for violating any posted speed limit. Surveys would be requested through discovery to the citing agency.

Basic/max speed law like 65+ (realistically 80+) on freeways do not require a survey.
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
DUI s enforceable almost anywhere.
Just to add to this: they are enforceable on anything as well. Boat, bicycle, skateboard, riding lawn mower, ect.
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  #17  
Old 10-15-2012, 10:21 PM
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  #18  
Old 10-15-2012, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NytWolf View Post
Negative. I have a BIL who works for CalTrans. Traffic flow signs require traffic surveys or studies. Those without the survey or studies are unenforceable. The law enforcement may have a different thought, but when it comes down to the basics of the law, they are unenforceable.

How so? I'd like to know.
CalTrans is a state agency, and only deals with state highways or places that contract for their services.

Local cities and counties can install stop signs by enacting local ordinances and are 100% enforceable.

I have testified in traffic court thousands of times throughout L.A County. The only time a traffic survey was needed was for radar cites, and that was rare. Most judges I encountered took "Judical Notice" that a valid survey was conducted and properly filed with the court.
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
CalTrans is a state agency, and only deals with state highways or places that contract for their services.
True, but any changes to posted speed limits must be surveyed by CHP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
Local cities and counties can install stop signs by enacting local ordinances and are 100% enforceable.
They cannot just arbitrarily install stop signs, which is the point I was making. This is especially true in private parking lots. The key point is, they must enact local ordinances. Otherwise, they are not enforceable. I know of four stop signs where I work that was installed by the city when the streets were built. Those are unenforceable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
I have testified in traffic court thousands of times throughout L.A County. The only time a traffic survey was needed was for radar cites, and that was rare. Most judges I encountered took "Judical Notice" that a valid survey was conducted and properly filed with the court.
In the case of radar cites, you are governed by CVC 40801 and 40802. IMO, that is different from enforceable stop signs and private property signs.

I understand where you're coming from. However, I am knowledgeable of at least three cases in Sacramento where the judge dismissed citations because the posted signs were not backed by studies. FWIW, one was a speeding citation and two were stop signs.

In another case, my BIL who works for CalTrans was cited for driving 10MPH over a recently decreased speed limit (not the National Speed Limit though) by the city. He proved there was no traffic survey conducted and there was no radar used. The judge himself said to the officer that the sign was unenforceable and dismissed the citation.
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NytWolf View Post
True, but any changes to posted speed limits must be surveyed by CHP.

CHP only deals with state highways and roads in unincorporated county areas. Changes to speed limits in an incorporated city are done by ordinance in conjunction with a traffic survey.

They cannot just arbitrarily install stop signs, which is the point I was making. This is especially true in private parking lots. The key point is, they must enact local ordinances. Otherwise, they are not enforceable. I know of four stop signs where I work that was installed by the city when the streets were built. Those are unenforceable.

Every incorporated city that I worked in, had enacted local ordinances for every stop sign in the city. Los Angeles County did the same. That section of the county code is very thick.


In the case of radar cites, you are governed by CVC 40801 and 40802. IMO, that is different from enforceable stop signs and private property signs.

I understand where you're coming from. However, I am knowledgeable of at least three cases in Sacramento where the judge dismissed citations because the posted signs were not backed by studies. FWIW, one was a speeding citation and two were stop signs.

In another case, my BIL who works for CalTrans was cited for driving 10MPH over a recently decreased speed limit (not the National Speed Limit though) by the city. He proved there was no traffic survey conducted and there was no radar used. The judge himself said to the officer that the sign was unenforceable and dismissed the citation.
Judges have a lot of discreation in dismissing cites. I've seen them dismiss a case just because the violator made a good effort and they were 100% in the wrong and deserved the ticket.
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Old 10-16-2012, 5:54 AM
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Of course, blowing those signs and then getting into an accident wouldn't help you when it comes to civil suits afterwards either.
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Old 10-16-2012, 7:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
Judges have a lot of discreation in dismissing cites. I've seen them dismiss a case just because the violator made a good effort and they were 100% in the wrong and deserved the ticket.
And you have generalized these incidents of which I am aware?
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Old 10-16-2012, 8:13 AM
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And you have generalized these incidents of which I am aware?
Where did I say that? I simply listed my personal observations from thousands of trips to traffic court, not to mention my time supervising bailiffs in some of the busiest traffic courts in Los Angeles, including the Metropolitan Traffic Court south of Downtown L.A. I supervised that facility for several years.
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Old 10-16-2012, 8:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
Where did I say that? I simply listed my personal observations from thousands of trips to traffic court, not to mention my time supervising bailiffs in some of the busiest traffic courts in Los Angeles, including the Metropolitan Traffic Court south of Downtown L.A. I supervised that facility for several years.
Your statement above implied it. If it were a simple statement, you wouldn't have done a direct reply (with the bold) and you wouldn't have restated (reaffirmation of point?), as you have already stated in another post above.
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Old 10-16-2012, 8:49 AM
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quite the pissing match, eh?

For private property, if EVERY entrance is posted with signage that CVC is enforced, then it can be cited by PD. If even one entrance isn't signed, then they can't ticket you. At least that is the prevailing philosophy of LAPD and LASD, and CHP in North LA County.
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Old 10-16-2012, 8:54 AM
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Errrr, regarding the required stopping question, I get the impression the answer is yes, no or maybe? What brought this question on was, while in a parking lot early in the morning before the stores opened, (NO one around) I did a "rolling stop" thru a stop sign. My friend brought up the legality question on private property and whether something like that could receive a citation in this situation.
thx
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Old 10-16-2012, 9:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tackdriver View Post
Errrr, regarding the required stopping question, I get the impression the answer is yes, no or maybe? What brought this question on was, while in a parking lot early in the morning before the stores opened, (NO one around) I did a "rolling stop" thru a stop sign. My friend brought up the legality question on private property and whether something like that could receive a citation in this situation.
thx
Exactly! As the purpose behind many laws, whether or not it is enforced, its primary purpose to determine fault in the event of a collision. In your particular question, it is used to determine right of way. It gives law enforcement guidelines to determine fault, and it releases the property ownership from liability had there not been a stop sign.
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Old 10-16-2012, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NytWolf View Post
Your statement above implied it. If it were a simple statement, you wouldn't have done a direct reply (with the bold) and you wouldn't have restated (reaffirmation of point?), as you have already stated in another post above.
You are reading way too much into this. I quoted your statement. And replied in italic/bold simply for clarity sake, and nothing more.

I don't imply things. I will make a direct comment on an issue, or keep silent, but not in between. I don't hesitate to make decisions.

My comments are based on experience, not stuff I read somewhere.
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Old 10-16-2012, 4:53 PM
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I've seen judges dismiss tickets with people who were outright honest and told the judge that they know they messed up and explained what happened.
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Old 10-16-2012, 5:32 PM
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Thanks for all your answers guys, but there really doesnt seem to be a consensus of the legality of it or not. I understand about the use or misuse of a stop sign being a factor in determining fault etc., but, IF someone made a rolling stop thru a stop sign that is located on the private property of a shopping mall ( I'm assuming this is private property, right?) Would an LEO have the authority to write a citation?
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NytWolf View Post
True, but any changes to posted speed limits must be surveyed by CHP. .
First of all, CHP doesn't conduct any traffic surveys this is done at the county or city level. The Vehicle Code does not require a traffic survey to erect any stop sign, only that certain requirements are meant.

Refer to Vehicle Code Section 21107.8 that states, a) Any city or county may, by ordinance or resolution,
find and declare that there are privately owned and maintained
offstreet parking facilities as described in the ordinance or
resolution within the city or county that are generally held open for
use of the public for purposes of vehicular parking. Upon enactment
by a city or county of the ordinance or resolution, Sections 22350,
23103, and 23109 and the provisions of Division 16.5 (commencing with
Section 38000) shall apply to privately owned and maintained
offstreet parking facilities, except as provided in subdivision (b).
(b) Notwithstanding the provisions of subdivision (a), no
ordinance or resolution enacted thereunder shall apply to any
offstreet parking facility described therein unless the owner or
operator has caused to be posted in a conspicuous place at each
entrance to that offstreet parking facility a notice not less than 17
by 22 inches in size with lettering not less than one inch in
height, to the effect that the offstreet parking facility is subject
to public traffic regulations and control.
(c) No ordinance or resolution shall be enacted under subdivision
(a) without a public hearing thereon and 10 days prior written notice
to the owner and operator of the privately owned and maintained
offstreet parking facility involved.
(d) Section 22507.8 may be enforced without enactment of an
ordinance or resolution as required under subdivision (a) or the
posting of a notice at each entrance to the offstreet parking
facility as required under subdivision (b).
(e) The department shall not be required to provide patrol or
enforce any provisions of this code on any privately owned and
maintained offstreet parking facility subject to the provisions of
this code under this section except those provisions applicable to
private property other than by action under this section.
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  #32  
Old 10-17-2012, 2:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tackdriver View Post
Thanks for all your answers guys, but there really doesnt seem to be a consensus of the legality of it or not. I understand about the use or misuse of a stop sign being a factor in determining fault etc., but, IF someone made a rolling stop thru a stop sign that is located on the private property of a shopping mall ( I'm assuming this is private property, right?) Would an LEO have the authority to write a citation?
Tackdriver

As several have pointed out, if the parking area was posted with the required signs, then yes LEO would have the authority to issue a citation.
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Old 10-18-2012, 12:20 PM
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Ah! Now it's clear. Seems sec B of 21107.8 makes it clear that advisory signs need to be posted stating the vehicle code is enforced on site. A sign which I don't believe I've ever seen.
Thx everyone, especially Jody!
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Old 10-19-2012, 7:23 AM
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But don't be "That guy" who ignores traffic signs on private property and causes an accident or worse a fatality. Plus if you are seen by security or management of the property they would more than likely write you a trespass notice and ban you from the property for a year or two. Ive worked a few sites where I had to trespass people for breaking parking lot rules, turning people around and off the property as they get out of the car was never a fun task.
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