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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 10-20-2012, 9:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AyatollahGondola View Post
While there is no law that requires transport by vehicle, there is some that say you may not possess a concealable firearm without CCW. And further, a concealable firearm may be transported when it is in a vehicle and in a locked container. I'm not at all sure where this is an exemption or allowance for transporting concealed when not in a vehicle, with the exception of allowances to go between the vehicle and a lawful place of use or possession
A locked container takes out any concealed carry issues.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Decoligny View Post
This thread is so full of fail that it is unbelievable.

You need to look at the Penal Code sections in the 25500 range. They deal with the specifics of transporting a firearm without regard of the method of transportation, i.e. by bicycle, on foot, on skateboard, rollerskates, or any other non motor vehicle method of getting from one place to the next. This section of the PC limits the transportation by these means of travel to going directly to or from certain specified locations.

PC 25610 deals with transport via motor vehicle and there is no language in this section limiting where you are going to, or whether or not you can make stops along the way. Under PC 25610 a trunk gun that you take everywhere you drive is perfectly legal. (exceptions for those areas where firearms are excluded, for example on US Postal property.)
In the context that this thread was started, the OP can go from his home to the range on a bike/bus/train/foot/skateboard and the firearm is locked in a container, he's legal.

My example, I would go from home (where I carry legally), to work (where I carry legally) via bicycle and public transit.
I have broken no laws and this was verified by a LEO contact.
#1, know the law, and respectfully relate this fact to any LEO's who try to give you trouble.
#2, be 100% legal and have nothing illegal on you.
#3, locked container
#4, be confident (in the law and your knowledge of it) and respectful to any LEO's (most are cool folks, it's the few who give the rest a bad name)
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  #42  
Old 10-21-2012, 6:37 AM
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Originally Posted by AyatollahGondola View Post
A bicycle is not a vehicle under California law. It's also not a motor vehicle obviously. So you are treated the same as a pedestrian in a school zone
Please ignore the above post. A bicycle IS, I repeat IS a "vehicle" in Kalifornia. I am a professional LRV operator, and have appeared in CA. DMV safety videos, and am credited in such videos as an expert in the area of right of way law, and vehicle operations by the DMV. Any law pertaining to the safe operation of a class C motor vehicle, also applies to the safe operation of a bicycle.

A bicycle is a vehicle.
Carry your guns on a bicycle the same way you would carry them in your car.
  #43  
Old 10-21-2012, 6:40 AM
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Originally Posted by AyatollahGondola View Post
I've not had any firsthand experience with that, so I don't know, but a bicycle is one of the exemptions in the Vehicle code definition of a vehicle. But...it has to be powered solely by human power. They have carved out some new definitions to accomodate electric bikes, and motor driven cycles lately, which the OP didn't allude to. But a bicycle is not a vehicle
Ignore this one too.
  #44  
Old 10-21-2012, 6:42 AM
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Please ignore the above post. A bicycle IS, I repeat IS a "vehicle" in Kalifornia. I am a professional LRV operator, and have appeared in CA. DMV safety videos, and am credited in such videos as an expert in the area of right of way law, and vehicle operations by the DMV. Any law pertaining to the safe operation of a class C motor vehicle, also applies to the safe operation of a bicycle.

A bicycle is a vehicle.
Carry your guns on a bicycle the same way you would carry them in your car.
Seriously? Spelling California with a "K" and you want to be taken as an authority on the issue? It just undermines your case to use the slur. However, that aside, can you point to any settled case law that supports the above?
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  #45  
Old 10-21-2012, 6:45 AM
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Originally Posted by AyatollahGondola View Post
Jaywalking is also in the vehicle code. Doesn't make you a vehicle. A person can be charged with violating many parts of the vehicle code, all without being in a vehicle
Jaywalking is a "right of way" issue and as such, a necessary part of the vehicle code. Your "argument " is an example of a logical fallacy known as "missing the point".
  #46  
Old 10-21-2012, 6:47 AM
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Seriously? Spelling California with a "K" and you want to be taken as an authority on the issue? It just undermines your case to use the slur. However, that aside, can you point to any settled case law that supports the above?
Ummm, no, I want to be taken as an authority on the issue because the CA DMV recognizes me as one. Kalifornia, Kalifornia, Kalifornia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRyEwagkrEI

Last edited by Badmusic; 10-21-2012 at 6:56 AM..
  #47  
Old 10-21-2012, 7:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Badmusic View Post
Please ignore the above post. A bicycle IS, I repeat IS a "vehicle" in Kalifornia. I am a professional LRV operator, and have appeared in CA. DMV safety videos, and am credited in such videos as an expert in the area of right of way law, and vehicle operations by the DMV. Any law pertaining to the safe operation of a class C motor vehicle, also applies to the safe operation of a bicycle.

A bicycle is a vehicle.
Carry your guns on a bicycle the same way you would carry them in your car.
I'm not at all sure what your meaning is, but just because the bicycle is treated the same as a vehicle for the purposes of one or more vehicle code violations still doesn't alter the definition or that it would be treated differently for other vehicle codes. It's not a vehicle when it comes to freeways for example, or licensing, or registration, and on and on. I'm relatively certain a prosecutor will go with the code definition when deciding whether to charge a gun owner, and a judge or jury will be mulling that over too.
  #48  
Old 10-21-2012, 8:34 AM
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CVC 21200 usurps the definition of bicycle for purposes of applied law. The definition exists for the purpose of CLARITY in legal matters, and is itself not a part of civil or criminal law for purposes of prosecution. Where the section cites "has all the rights and is subject to all the provisions applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this division" means just what it says, with respect to the OPERATION of a bicycle. For prosecutorial or enforcement purposes a bicycle is the same as a car is the same as a vehicle.

Therefore: If a person carries his gun on a bicycle in the same manner as he would legally carry it in a car, he has broken no law.

Last edited by Badmusic; 10-21-2012 at 8:51 AM..
  #49  
Old 10-21-2012, 8:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Badmusic View Post
Please ignore the above post. A bicycle IS, I repeat IS a "vehicle" in Kalifornia. I am a professional LRV operator, and have appeared in CA. DMV safety videos, and am credited in such videos as an expert in the area of right of way law, and vehicle operations by the DMV. Any law pertaining to the safe operation of a class C motor vehicle, also applies to the safe operation of a bicycle.

A bicycle is a vehicle.
Carry your guns on a bicycle the same way you would carry them in your car.
While a bicycle is a "vehicle" under the CVC, it is not a "motor vehicle" when dealing with the firearms transport laws. Treat transporting a firearm by bicycle exactly the same as walking.

The CVC has its own definitions which apply to the CVC.
The PC has its own definitions which apply to the PC.
They are not the same definitions.
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  #50  
Old 10-21-2012, 9:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Badmusic View Post
CVC 21200 usurps the definition of bicycle for purposes of applied law. The definition exists for the purpose of CLARITY in legal matters, and is itself not a part of civil or criminal law for purposes of prosecution. Where the section cites "has all the rights and is subject to all the provisions applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this division" means just what it says, with respect to the OPERATION of a bicycle. For prosecutorial or enforcement purposes a bicycle is the same as a car is the same as a vehicle.

Therefore: If a person carries his gun on a bicycle in the same manner as he would legally carry it in a car, he has broken no law.
I think the part that fails you will be that which is highlighted. In short, I believe that definition only applies to the:

Quote:
CHAPTER 1. OBEDIENCE TO AND EFFECT OF TRAFFIC LAWS Article 1. Definitions ...................................... 21000-21001
Article 2. Effect of Traffic Laws ........................... 21050-21070
Article 3. Local Regulation ................................. 21100-21117
Article 4. Operation of Bicycles ............................ 21200-21212
Article 5. Operation of Motorized Scooters .................. 21220-21235
Article 5. Operation of Low-Speed Vehicles .................. 21250-21266
Article 6. Electric Personal Assistive Mobility Devices ..... 21280-21282
21200. (a) A person riding a bicycle or operating a pedicab upon a
highway has all the rights and is subject to all the provisions
applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this division
  #51  
Old 10-21-2012, 2:23 PM
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Originally Posted by AyatollahGondola View Post
I think the part that fails you will be that which is highlighted. In short, I believe that definition only applies to the:



21200. (a) A person riding a bicycle or operating a pedicab upon a
highway has all the rights and is subject to all the provisions
applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this division
Rofl, thanks for reinforcing my point. That's right, "applicable to the driver of a vehicle".

So tell me "AG", when did you graduate from a California Commission on Peace Officers Standards and Training approved law enforcement academy? 'Cause I can "P.O.S.T." a basic copy of my certification. Clearly, you never learned how to interpret written law, nor were given instruction relevant to applying it in the field. Have a nice day.
  #52  
Old 10-21-2012, 2:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Decoligny View Post
... Treat transporting a firearm by bicycle exactly the same as walking.
By which you mean in a locked container, unloaded, right?
  #53  
Old 10-21-2012, 3:12 PM
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Originally Posted by mjmagee67 View Post
From a legal argument side of carrying a gun on a bicycle, what if you don't own a car and the bicycle is your main/only form of transportation? Does that give the government the right to say to "no you can't transport you firearms in order to use then in a legal manner" I think not. And, yes a bicycle may not be specifically spelled out as a vehicle in the California Vehicle Code (CVC), but the CVC does cover bicycles. See CVC Chapter 21 with the section CVC21200.

PS all my bicycles have a motor, then all use the SAME motor and that's me
Umm...What part of the law says you have to transport in a vehicle?

Man, you guys are arguing over nothing. When it comes to LOCKED, UNLOADED, CONCEALED CARRY, it DOES NOT MATTER whether you use a vehicle or not as transportation. Whether a bicycle is a vehicle or not is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the question at hand.

Last edited by lilro; 10-21-2012 at 3:17 PM..
  #54  
Old 10-21-2012, 3:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Badmusic View Post
Rofl, thanks for reinforcing my point. That's right, "applicable to the driver of a vehicle".

So tell me "AG", when did you graduate from a California Commission on Peace Officers Standards and Training approved law enforcement academy? 'Cause I can "P.O.S.T." a basic copy of my certification. Clearly, you never learned how to interpret written law, nor were given instruction relevant to applying it in the field. Have a nice day.
Seems like POST training didn't teach you to read definitions - I posted the VC definitions for 'bicycle' and 'vehicle' in post 20 - http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...7&postcount=20.

21200 says, in effect, 'even though the term 'vehicle' is explicitly defined to exclude a bicycle, bicycle operators must follow the same rules of the road that apply to vehicle operators.'

I used to think bicycles were vehicles; this thread made me look up the actual law. Learn something new every day.

Hope your day is nice, too.
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Last edited by Librarian; 10-21-2012 at 3:20 PM..
  #55  
Old 10-21-2012, 3:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Badmusic View Post
Rofl, thanks for reinforcing my point. That's right, "applicable to the driver of a vehicle".

So tell me "AG", when did you graduate from a California Commission on Peace Officers Standards and Training approved law enforcement academy? 'Cause I can "P.O.S.T." a basic copy of my certification. Clearly, you never learned how to interpret written law, nor were given instruction relevant to applying it in the field. Have a nice day.
Oh, so you are P.O.S.T. qualified, are you?

It seems by achieving the minimum standards to become a peace officer you were decorated with a chip on your shoulder, judging by your response.

Decolingy is correct in articulating the exemptions in transporting a locked cased unloaded concealable firearm. Motor vehicle is not the same as vehicle in this regard. One is limited to specificed destinations transporting it in this manner (on foot, without a motor vehicle), whereas in conjunction with a motor vehicle (as specified by statute) one is not limited to the destinations listed.
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  #56  
Old 10-21-2012, 4:55 PM
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By which you mean in a locked container, unloaded, right?
That is one aspect.

The other aspect is the requirement to be going to a location listed in the PC. According to the PC sections I referenced previously if you are transporting via a MOTOR vehicle you can take the firearm (unloaded and locked in a case, or locked in the trunk) anywhere. You can go on a joyride, stop and see a movie, park the car and walk on the beach. No problem, not illegal.

If you are transporting a firearm via any method other than MOTOR vehicle (by bicycle for example) you have to be going directly from a location where you can legally possess a firearm to another place were you can legally possess a firearm, as listed in the PC, without any "unneccessary" stops. So, you can go from your house directly to the range, or directly to the gunsmith, or directly to your friends house, etc., and then directly back. You can't legally jump on your bike at home with an unloaded firearm locked in a case and just ride around for a few hours and then go back home.
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Last edited by Decoligny; 10-21-2012 at 4:58 PM..
  #57  
Old 10-21-2012, 5:01 PM
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Umm...What part of the law says you have to transport in a vehicle?

Man, you guys are arguing over nothing. When it comes to LOCKED, UNLOADED, CONCEALED CARRY, it DOES NOT MATTER whether you use a vehicle or not as transportation. Whether a bicycle is a vehicle or not is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the question at hand.
If you are not transporting via a motor vehicle you are limited by the PC as to immediate destination. In a motor vehicle you can keep a trunk gun and go pretty much anywhere.

When transporting by any other method, you have to be going to or coming from one of the listed locations with only absolutely necessary stops.
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  #58  
Old 10-21-2012, 5:07 PM
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Originally Posted by 9mmrevolver View Post
Then how do people get DUI's on bikes
Ppl have been busted for that on a damn horse.
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  #59  
Old 10-21-2012, 5:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post

21200 says, in effect, 'even though the term 'vehicle' is explicitly defined to exclude a bicycle, bicycle operators must follow the same rules of the road that apply to vehicle operators.'
hope your day is nice, too.

And that is what I am saying when I said that in practical application of the laws, a bike is a car is a vehicle. We are saying the same thing Librarian. Thanks for the nice day wishes. You have one too
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Old 10-21-2012, 5:22 PM
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Oh, so you are P.O.S.T. qualified, are you?
Yes.
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Originally Posted by CitaDeL View Post
It seems by achieving the minimum standards to become a peace officer you were decorated with a chip on your shoulder, judging by your response.
Seems you are judgmental, even when you can't hear tone of voice. Try to judge the explicit content in the future, rather than your skewed perceptions of an individual you have never met.

Gee whiz people, just trying to point out that there is a difference between the definition of a word, and the application of a civil or criminal law. Pardon me for having studied. Y'all still have a nice day.
  #61  
Old 10-21-2012, 5:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Decoligny View Post
That is one aspect...



...If you are transporting a firearm via any method other than MOTOR vehicle (by bicycle for example) you have to be going directly from a location where you can legally possess a firearm to another place were you can legally possess a firearm, as listed in the PC, without any "unneccessary" stops. So, you can go from your house directly to the range, or directly to the gunsmith, or directly to your friends house, etc., and then directly back. You can't legally jump on your bike at home with an unloaded firearm locked in a case and just ride around for a few hours and then go back home.
The OP said he was going to the range, so I answered in that context.
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Old 10-21-2012, 5:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Decoligny View Post
If you are not transporting via a motor vehicle you are limited by the PC as to immediate destination. In a motor vehicle you can keep a trunk gun and go pretty much anywhere.

When transporting by any other method, you have to be going to or coming from one of the listed locations with only absolutely necessary stops.
So the people who carry unloaded in a locked fanny pack are committing a crime? I'd like to see this PC.

Last edited by lilro; 10-21-2012 at 5:28 PM..
  #63  
Old 10-21-2012, 5:32 PM
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So the people who carry unloaded in a locked fanny pack are committing a crime? I'd like to see this PC.
Unless they are going to or from one of the listed places, they don't have an specific exception to the prohibition on concealed carry, it seems to me.

Committing a crime? I dunno.
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Old 10-21-2012, 6:03 PM
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And that is what I am saying when I said that in practical application of the laws, a bike is a car is a vehicle. We are saying the same thing Librarian.

Thanks for the nice day wishes. You have one too
No, actually we're not.

It's true that for enforcement of traffic law, violations committed by bicyclists are treated equivalently to violations committed by vehicle operators. Same laws cited, same penalties apply. (Darnit, bicycle riders, stop at stop signs!)

If that's your point, as a LEO concerned with enforcing traffic laws, you're right.

BUT, it is NOT correct to make the unmodified assertion that "a bike is a car is a vehicle", because the text of the Vehicle Code says "no". You are, generally, adding the qualification "in practical application of the laws", but this thread is one where the precise language of the codes is in play.

Since PC does not have its own definition for 'vehicle', we have to step outside the Penal Code to some other legislative statement; that's in Vehicle Code; for PC, 'vehicle' would seem to exclude bicycles, because PC doesn't say and VC is clear.
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Last edited by Librarian; 10-21-2012 at 6:06 PM..
  #65  
Old 10-21-2012, 6:20 PM
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And the exemptions to the concealed carry law state specifically "MOTOR vehicle" which clearly a bicycle is not.
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  #66  
Old 10-21-2012, 6:38 PM
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I walk to my range with a locked rifle case on my back Ive never had any issues only time I have been talked to by a LEO was at the Starbucks when I was grabbing a coffee It went like this
me hey sir how are you doing ?
LEO good how bout you?
me im good im just heading to the range
LEO I see that .that case is locked correct
me yes sir
LEO what kind of gun do you have ?
me a old iver johnson single shot 12 gauge
Leo nice have a good time
me thank you sir I plan too
I went on my way no need to be worried OP youll be fine just keep it unloaded and in a LOCKED case and your GTG
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Old 10-21-2012, 6:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Badmusic View Post
Rofl, thanks for reinforcing my point. That's right, "applicable to the driver of a vehicle".

So tell me "AG", when did you graduate from a California Commission on Peace Officers Standards and Training approved law enforcement academy? 'Cause I can "P.O.S.T." a basic copy of my certification. Clearly, you never learned how to interpret written law, nor were given instruction relevant to applying it in the field. Have a nice day.
Most of us don't interpret laws correctly, as is evidenced by the volumnous court decisions and case law. I'm not quite sure what the benefit of your condescending responses are, but no; I'm not post certified. I run a non-profit. But that doesn't make me inherently ignorant or incapable of reason
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Old 10-21-2012, 7:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Badmusic View Post
Yes.


Seems you are judgmental, even when you can't hear tone of voice. Try to judge the explicit content in the future, rather than your skewed perceptions of an individual you have never met.

Gee whiz people, just trying to point out that there is a difference between the definition of a word, and the application of a civil or criminal law. Pardon me for having studied. Y'all still have a nice day.
The word is 'discerning'. I hope that before you are employed as a peace officer, you work out your curbside manner, because you arent doing so well winning us over with your education.
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  #69  
Old 10-21-2012, 7:30 PM
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Hmmmm 2 pages in and STILL no concrete answer for the OP .... getting sad


SO here I will asked a more direct question to cover all the bases:

What is the law concerning transporting a firearm while walking?

If question one is legal then, is there a difference in the law while transporting a firearm walking and while transporting a firearm in a vehicle as far as how the firearm is secured?
  #70  
Old 10-21-2012, 7:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunsmith Dan View Post
Hmmmm 2 pages in and STILL no concrete answer for the OP .... getting sad


SO here I will asked a more direct question to cover all the bases:

What is the law concerning transporting a firearm while walking?

If question one is legal then, is there a difference in the law while transporting a firearm walking and while transporting a firearm in a vehicle as far as how the firearm is secured?
It's not exactly concrete. there's a hodge-podge of codes to consider for each individual's "flight plan" so-to-speak.

The vehicle thing seems pretty straight forward: unloaded, locked container, or trunk. Go where and when you like, but be mindful of prohibited areas like school grounds On your person, which seems to include your basic bicycle, locked container, unloaded, but no unnecessary deviations in his travel to and from the range, and school zones, (this is where a vehicle differs from "on your person"). While you may transport your handgun unloaded and in a locked container in a school zone in your motor vehicle, you may not do so on your person

Last edited by AyatollahGondola; 10-21-2012 at 7:51 PM..
  #71  
Old 10-21-2012, 7:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AyatollahGondola View Post
It's not exactly concrete. there's a hodge-podge of codes to consider for each individual's "flight plan" so-to-speak.

The vehicle thing seems pretty straight forward: unloaded, locked container, or trunk. Go where and when you like, but be mindful of prohibited areas like school grounds and school zones, (this is where a vehicle differs from "on your person").
On your person, which seems to include your basic bicycle, locked container, unloaded, but no unnecessary deviations in his travel to and from the range
... which is EXACTLY what the wiki article, already cited, says: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transporting
Quote:
NOT in a vehicle

Quote:
25505 In order for a firearm to be exempted under this article,
while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall
be unloaded and kept in a locked container, and the course of
travel shall include only those deviations between authorized
locations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.
The 'locked container' requirement still applies, but other than to and from a vehicle, as above, the Penal Code has destination requirements beginning with Section 25510 and finishing at Section 25595, the 'other' section:
Quote:
25595 This article does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
carrying or transportation of any handgun in accordance with the
provisions listed in Section 16580.
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  #72  
Old 10-21-2012, 7:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmrevolver View Post
Then how do people get DUI's on bikes
DUI on a bicycle is not the same as a DUI in a motor vehicle. DUI on a bike is basically the same as public intoxication - unless something has changed since I reitired. There is no chemical test required to determine BAC.
  #73  
Old 10-21-2012, 7:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
... which is EXACTLY what the wiki article, already cited, says: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transporting
Wiki might want to be altered to show the difference between on-your-person, and in your car when traversing a school zone. the way I read it, you are in violation of 626.9 if you have an unloaded handgun in a locked container on your person in a school zone, but not in violation if you have same in your car
  #74  
Old 10-21-2012, 8:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AyatollahGondola View Post
It's not exactly concrete. there's a hodge-podge of codes to consider for each individual's "flight plan" so-to-speak.

The vehicle thing seems pretty straight forward: unloaded, locked container, or trunk. Go where and when you like, but be mindful of prohibited areas like school grounds On your person, which seems to include your basic bicycle, locked container, unloaded, but no unnecessary deviations in his travel to and from the range, and school zones, (this is where a vehicle differs from "on your person"). While you may transport your handgun unloaded and in a locked container in a school zone in your motor vehicle, you may not do so on your person
Penal Code 626.9 makes no differentiation between walking with a firearm or driving with a firearm. As long as it is unloaded and locked in a secure container it may be transported through a school zone. Walking, driving, or skateboarding, no difference when dealing with a school zone.
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  #75  
Old 10-21-2012, 8:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AyatollahGondola View Post
Wiki might want to be altered to show the difference between on-your-person, and in your car when traversing a school zone. the way I read it, you are in violation of 626.9 if you have an unloaded handgun in a locked container on your person in a school zone, but not in violation if you have same in your car
626.9 does not make that distinction:
Quote:
(c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a
firearm under any of the following circumstances:
...
(2) When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed on the person
and
is in a locked container
or
within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle.
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  #76  
Old 10-21-2012, 8:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Decoligny View Post
Penal Code 626.9 makes no differentiation between walking with a firearm or driving with a firearm. As long as it is unloaded and locked in a secure container it may be transported through a school zone. Walking, driving, or skateboarding, no difference when dealing with a school zone.
OK, I just read that about ten times, and I think you're right now.
  #77  
Old 10-21-2012, 8:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AyatollahGondola View Post
OK, I just read that about ten times, and I think you're right now.
Dude, you are a breath of fresh air on this forum. You have twice admitted that someone else might be right.

Well done.
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  #78  
Old 10-21-2012, 8:27 PM
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Originally Posted by therealnickb View Post
Dude, you are a breath of fresh air on this forum. You have twice admitted that someone else might be right.
Ha! Now I'm right too...
  #79  
Old 10-21-2012, 8:42 PM
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Originally Posted by therealnickb View Post
Dude, you are a breath of fresh air on this forum. You have twice admitted that someone else might be right.

Well done.
It is probably a trick.
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  #80  
Old 10-21-2012, 10:20 PM
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Ignorance is simply either a lack of knowledge or having the facts wrong.

Ignorance is easily erradicated by the application of factual information.

Stupidity however is often a life long disability.

You will find a lot of citation to the actual Penal Code here at CalGuns. Seeing what the PC actually says, instead of going by what someone else has told you will go a long way in rounding out your knowledge base of CA gun laws.
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