Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > INTERESTS AND ACTIVITIES > Gunsmithing & How To
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Gunsmithing & How To Pro, Amateur & WECSOG and Tutorials, Guides & OLL Build Instructions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-30-2012, 1:59 AM
OrenG OrenG is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 155
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default 80% Beretta 92fs/m9?

I'm a pretty avid watcher of cncguns.com, but managed to miss the model that was released for the Beretta 92fs/m9 frame.

I downloaded it and looked at it, and wondered why in the world no company has yet made an 80% frame out of this.

Are there patents or other legal reasons it hasn't been done yet? Or is it just a lack of interest?

Considering Beretta partnered with Brownells and offers up all the parts necessary to build a 92fs, it would seem like there would at least be some interest in this.

If it has been done before, I haven't ever seen or heard anyone mention it before, the 1911 80% frames seem to get all the lime light.

Last edited by OrenG; 12-30-2012 at 2:15 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-30-2012, 2:55 AM
SilverTauron SilverTauron is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 5,705
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Based on casual googling,I chalk it up to parts cost and price. A brand new quality 1911 runs about $1000 retail price vs the 92FS which sells for just over half that .By the time you get the frame and build parts you're paying more for an 80% build then if you just bought a brand new gun out the door.


Knowing human nature,people won't care about 80% Beretta's until the GI contract ends and the line is discontinued in the distant future.
__________________
The more prohibitions you have, the less virtuous people will be.
The more subsidies you have, the less self reliant people will be.
-Lao-Tzu, Tau Te Ching. 479 BCE

The 1911 may have been in wars for 100 years, but Masetro Bartolomeo Beretta was arming the world 400 years before John Browning was ever a wet dream.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-30-2012, 8:05 AM
kcstott's Avatar
kcstott kcstott is offline
Toolmaker Extraordinaire
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: National City Socal
Posts: 7,343
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

That, and it's 9mm, it's huge and heavy, and it's a platform that doesn't take well to caliber swaps like the 1911 does. Yes it's double action with a decocker which I like. But it's 9mm which I can definitely do without.

If Beretta made a 92 in 45acp I'd be all over it. I like the grip, I like the safety, like the design, I just can't get the thump from a 9mm. And don't try to sell me on the 40S&W thats just a half arsed compromise.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Dick.

Need prints for your build? Need reference materials for Gunsmithing projects, Click Here
I fear that even though as tough as life has been for me I have only begun to pay for my sins.
PSL BARRELS MACHINED TO ORDER PM FOR QUOTE
Don't forget to have your Liberals spayed or neutered !

Last edited by kcstott; 12-30-2012 at 8:08 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-30-2012, 2:09 PM
OrenG OrenG is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 155
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
Based on casual googling,I chalk it up to parts cost and price. A brand new quality 1911 runs about $1000 retail price vs the 92FS which sells for just over half that .By the time you get the frame and build parts you're paying more for an 80% build then if you just bought a brand new gun out the door.


Knowing human nature,people won't care about 80% Beretta's until the GI contract ends and the line is discontinued in the distant future.
The purpose of finishing an 80% firearm isn't saving money...

For example, by the time you finish buying an 80% AR15 lower, and a jig, you've already spent more money then you would have on a FFL required AR15 lower, not to mention any additional time or money you'll spend machining it or taking it to a build party at a machine shop with a CNC machine.

Same goes for an 80% 1911, especially if you want all the fixings such as Wilson Combat parts which would be equiv to anything you can buy.

Last edited by OrenG; 12-30-2012 at 2:16 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-30-2012, 3:02 PM
a308garand's Avatar
a308garand a308garand is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Lakewood, CA
Posts: 278
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Look here:
http://cncguns.com/projects/beretta92fs.html
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-30-2012, 4:48 PM
OrenG OrenG is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 155
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by a308garand View Post
Not sure how much attention you paid to my first post, but I mentioned the website as the source for the model of the frame.

I guess the only way to make one of these is just find a willing machine shop that will let you press the button, and have the frame machined from 6061-T6 aluminum.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-30-2012, 4:58 PM
bigcalidave's Avatar
bigcalidave bigcalidave is offline
Pre-Banned
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Oregon
Posts: 4,680
iTrader: 29 / 100%
Default

It's not always just pressing a button. If only CNC was that easy. Look at the actual instructions from cncguns, he even said it was his most difficult project. It would be cool if someone made 80s for them, but I doubt it will happen. It's gonna be one of those things you learn to build yourself for the love of the challenge.
__________________
Contact me about Advertising on Calguns.net
Marketing Director, Calguns.net
Dave Shore
NRA Life Member


Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-30-2012, 5:21 PM
OrenG OrenG is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 155
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigcalidave View Post
It's not always just pressing a button. If only CNC was that easy. Look at the actual instructions from cncguns, he even said it was his most difficult project. It would be cool if someone made 80s for them, but I doubt it will happen. It's gonna be one of those things you learn to build yourself for the love of the challenge.
It really depends on what legally counts as performing work on the piece, I wouldn't think having a machinist position it in the machine and verify it's all lined up would be considered working on the piece, would it?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-30-2012, 5:31 PM
FORD4LIFE FORD4LIFE is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 334
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

That guys is a beast
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-30-2012, 6:34 PM
kcstott's Avatar
kcstott kcstott is offline
Toolmaker Extraordinaire
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: National City Socal
Posts: 7,343
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrenG View Post
It really depends on what legally counts as performing work on the piece, I wouldn't think having a machinist position it in the machine and verify it's all lined up would be considered working on the piece, would it?
Thats not what Dave was getting at. Just because you have a working model doesn't mean you have a part program no fixturing for said part program.

The things you need to complete this project are,
CNC mill with 3D capability.
Iges file.
Programmer
PArt program
Chunk o aluminum
Prove out the program
Edit program
Prove out program
Then move on to making a first run.

Now just so you understand. You can't ask someone for their part program and run it in your machine. Unless the machines are exactly the same. Not close, not kind of the same but exactly the same down to every last bit of software installed and even then I would test the program first. CNC machine are each different and unique in there programs You may know G code on a Haas but how about Fanuc, ***or, Alan Bradley, Fedal, Hurco, Okuma, Kitumura, Mori Seki etc....
Please don't take this the wrong way I'm not trying to be a jerk. Just stating the facts (Actually I am a jerk so who cares) But CNC are not like printers where you can take a standard format file and hit print and out comes your page no matter what brand and age printer your use.
MAchine tools are completely different. And up until recently, none ran windows in the background
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Dick.

Need prints for your build? Need reference materials for Gunsmithing projects, Click Here
I fear that even though as tough as life has been for me I have only begun to pay for my sins.
PSL BARRELS MACHINED TO ORDER PM FOR QUOTE
Don't forget to have your Liberals spayed or neutered !
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-30-2012, 9:39 PM
a308garand's Avatar
a308garand a308garand is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Lakewood, CA
Posts: 278
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrenG View Post
Not sure how much attention you paid to my first post, but I mentioned the website as the source for the model of the frame.

I guess the only way to make one of these is just find a willing machine shop that will let you press the button, and have the frame machined from 6061-T6 aluminum.
Yep, I read your first post as you didn't have the information on that link anymore.
__________________

Last edited by a308garand; 12-30-2012 at 9:42 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-30-2012, 10:33 PM
yari's Avatar
yari yari is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 865
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

In progress. Be ready.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-30-2012, 11:07 PM
OrenG OrenG is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 155
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yari View Post
In progress. Be ready.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-30-2012, 11:12 PM
OrenG OrenG is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 155
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
Thats not what Dave was getting at. Just because you have a working model doesn't mean you have a part program no fixturing for said part program.

The things you need to complete this project are,
CNC mill with 3D capability.
Iges file.
Programmer
PArt program
Chunk o aluminum
Prove out the program
Edit program
Prove out program
Then move on to making a first run.

Now just so you understand. You can't ask someone for their part program and run it in your machine. Unless the machines are exactly the same. Not close, not kind of the same but exactly the same down to every last bit of software installed and even then I would test the program first. CNC machine are each different and unique in there programs You may know G code on a Haas but how about Fanuc, ***or, Alan Bradley, Fedal, Hurco, Okuma, Kitumura, Mori Seki etc....
Please don't take this the wrong way I'm not trying to be a jerk. Just stating the facts (Actually I am a jerk so who cares) But CNC are not like printers where you can take a standard format file and hit print and out comes your page no matter what brand and age printer your use.
MAchine tools are completely different. And up until recently, none ran windows in the background
I have an interest in CNC machining and machining in general and understand that it's not as easy as just pushing the button, but frankly when ALL the rest of the work is done, that is what it comes down to essentially in LEGAL terms.

Obviously it's just as difficult to CNC out any firearm whether you have an existing part file or not, so I'm not really clear as to why you're pointing this out as a reason why a particular manufacturer wouldn't make 80% Beretta frames over say, AR15 80% lowers. Both will require the same process to get a finished product.

The main question was the legality of having other people involved in the process and that still being legally you "manufacturing" your own firearm for your own personal usage.

Last edited by OrenG; 12-31-2012 at 1:17 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-31-2012, 10:33 AM
bigcalidave's Avatar
bigcalidave bigcalidave is offline
Pre-Banned
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Oregon
Posts: 4,680
iTrader: 29 / 100%
Default

Because you said this
Quote:
I guess the only way to make one of these is just find a willing machine shop that will let you press the button, and have the frame machined from 6061-T6 aluminum.
We were pointing out that it will NOT be that easy. There is a tremendous amount of setup and machining. More than an AR or 1911 frame, from what I can see. All the rest of the work isn't done yet. Did you want the 80% process? You have to design an 80% frame that you can machine for a reasonable amount, then send it off to the ATF for a letter of determination to show that what you will be selling isn't a firearm. For a new product, that would probably take almost a year.

You asked about patents, but nowhere did you ask about the legality of pushing the button.
__________________
Contact me about Advertising on Calguns.net
Marketing Director, Calguns.net
Dave Shore
NRA Life Member


Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-31-2012, 10:43 AM
ptoguy2002's Avatar
ptoguy2002 ptoguy2002 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: The OC.
Posts: 3,555
iTrader: 37 / 100%
Default

92 frames are fairly elaborate / complicated compared to a 1911 frame. Your average machine shop isn't going to handle it.
Tannery shop had cast versions way back, but I don't see anybody doing 80% M9s, and won't happen unless there are lots of demilled M9s coming onto the market, which there won't be because they will likely toast the slides.
I'd love to have one myself though, but don't see it happening.
__________________
WTB: HK21A1 & HK13E parts
WTB: Project & fixer upper guns: Old beaters needing some TLC, C&Rs, Mauser's, Colt's, Beretta's, & HK's
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-31-2012, 10:43 AM
ptoguy2002's Avatar
ptoguy2002 ptoguy2002 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: The OC.
Posts: 3,555
iTrader: 37 / 100%
Default

92 frames are fairly elaborate / complicated compared to a 1911 frame. Your average machine shop isn't going to handle it.
Tannery shop had cast versions way back, but I don't see anybody doing 80% M9s, and won't happen unless there are lots of demilled M9s coming onto the market, which there won't be because they will likely toast the slides.
I'd love to have one myself though, but don't see it happening.
__________________
WTB: HK21A1 & HK13E parts
WTB: Project & fixer upper guns: Old beaters needing some TLC, C&Rs, Mauser's, Colt's, Beretta's, & HK's
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-31-2012, 1:31 PM
kcstott's Avatar
kcstott kcstott is offline
Toolmaker Extraordinaire
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: National City Socal
Posts: 7,343
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigcalidave View Post
Because you said this


We were pointing out that it will NOT be that easy. There is a tremendous amount of setup and machining. More than an AR or 1911 frame, from what I can see. All the rest of the work isn't done yet. Did you want the 80% process? You have to design an 80% frame that you can machine for a reasonable amount, then send it off to the ATF for a letter of determination to show that what you will be selling isn't a firearm. For a new product, that would probably take almost a year.

You asked about patents, but nowhere did you ask about the legality of pushing the button.
Well said Dave
That quoted statement alone was the whole reason for my rant.
Oh well I'm not going to beat my head against a wall trying to explain something to a Non machinist.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Dick.

Need prints for your build? Need reference materials for Gunsmithing projects, Click Here
I fear that even though as tough as life has been for me I have only begun to pay for my sins.
PSL BARRELS MACHINED TO ORDER PM FOR QUOTE
Don't forget to have your Liberals spayed or neutered !
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-17-2013, 2:15 AM
OrenG OrenG is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 155
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

...

Last edited by OrenG; 06-10-2015 at 3:25 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-17-2013, 9:41 AM
jfifer's Avatar
jfifer jfifer is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Kapolei, Oahu, Hawaii.
Posts: 3,243
iTrader: 41 / 98%
Default

Oren, i am currently learning cnc at a machine school and understand where the others are coming from. It is a difficult and time consuming process. But, if you have the finances nothing should stop you. Go to a shop, say i would like to make this, and this many, from this material. I have a general program, picture, prototype, actual product, whatevet. Also, consider the fact that maybe these guys really DISLIKE the platform and simply because of that they completely try to shut you down. Hell, if you build one I am in!
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 02-17-2013, 10:27 AM
ChuckD ChuckD is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 450
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Actually the disenters in this thread are very consistent in their view on this subject; I have seent them give the same input in other threads where they did like the platform.

The OP was " . . . wondered why in the world no company has yet made an 80% frame out of this." and that's what was answered. They were looking at it from a production viewpoint (as the question indicated), now if the OP stated " I'd like to figure out a way to make one for myself and cost be damned" I'm sure he would have got very different answers and maybe even an offer to help.

Let's keep in mind TM (who is pretty much the king of the 80% lowers) decided to make an 80% 1911 over a year ago; after a year they still don't even have an estimate as to when they may be available. While I don't have the machining knowledge to state this myself, it seems to be the general conclusion that making a 80% Beretta 92 would be significantly harder than a 1911.

Some things just are not cost effective to mass produce by small to medium size companies. Maybe as laws get tighter in some ways and looser in others, and if parts become cheaply available someone will deem this project worthy of the required investment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiferronald View Post
Oren, i am currently learning cnc at a machine school and understand where the others are coming from. It is a difficult and time consuming process. But, if you have the finances nothing should stop you. Go to a shop, say i would like to make this, and this many, from this material. I have a general program, picture, prototype, actual product, whatevet. Also, consider the fact that maybe these guys really DISLIKE the platform and simply because of that they completely try to shut you down. Hell, if you build one I am in!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 9:56 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.