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  #1  
Old 10-09-2012, 12:26 PM
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Default Short Cycling Issues On Mid length BCM Upper

Hi guys I was wondering if anyone could help me with my recent AR problem. So far I have fired around 300 rounds through the rifle with no issues however recently began experiencing problems with the bolt not going rearward enough to allow the next round to be pushed up. I talked with several friends and the best we could think of was a gas tube issue, or more likely, a issue with the combination of buffer weight and buffer spring. Currently I have a carbine length buffer spring and weight in the tube that I purchased from Bravo company. Anyways a single shot AR sucks so any insight to this problem would be greatly appreciated! My rifle is a BCM RECCE 16 upper with a stag lower parts kit and a spikes tactical lower. The buffer weight and spring are for a carbine stock. Thanks again. Also rounds eject at 4 o'clock position if that helps.
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  #2  
Old 10-09-2012, 12:40 PM
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My BCM mid length 16" has been rock solid, shot both brass cased ammo (American Eagle black box from Wally) and steel cased ammo (Wolf camo box and Wolf black box). I run a Spikes T2 buffer (heavy.)

- What ammo are you using?
- Did you open up the gun? Anything look like it is out of place? Is everything snug?
- Can you post pics?

Last edited by sd_shooter; 10-09-2012 at 12:43 PM..
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Old 10-09-2012, 12:46 PM
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Here's a thread where someone had trouble with Remington .223 ammo:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=574476
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Old 10-09-2012, 1:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sd_shooter View Post
My BCM mid length 16" has been rock solid, shot both brass cased ammo (American Eagle black box from Wally) and steel cased ammo (Wolf camo box and Wolf black box). I run a Spikes T2 buffer (heavy.)

- What ammo are you using?
- Did you open up the gun? Anything look like it is out of place? Is everything snug?
- Can you post pics?
^Hey SD, does that spikes buffer really make a difference?

OP, I have a 16" midlength BCM upper as well sitting on a LRB lower. So far no issues at all for my first 400 rounds. I'm shooting xm193 federal and PMC's X-Tac, all 5.56 NATO.

The only issue I've had between shooting my rifle and my buddy's rifle (spikes tactical upper) is his rifle jamming and failing to extract due to shooting .223 PMC rounds. Oh also my upper was first ejecting at the 4 o'clock at first but is starting to even out the more I shoot it. Could be you need to break your rig in more and shoot decent ammo for the initial break in period.
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Old 10-09-2012, 2:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggatronic View Post
^Hey SD, does that spikes buffer really make a difference?
I don't know, I've never used anything else. The gun is soft to shoot.

Quote:
Could be you need to break your rig in more and shoot decent ammo for the initial break in period.
Could be, but I would think the OP's initial 300 rounds would be enough to break it in.

OP, are you keeping the gun firmly on your shoulder?

Did you lube according to the chart?

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Old 10-09-2012, 2:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sd_shooter View Post
I don't know, I've never used anything else. The gun is soft to shoot.



Could be, but I would think the OP's initial 300 rounds would be enough to break it in.

OP, are you keeping the gun firmly on your shoulder?

Did you lube according to the chart?

Thanks for the response SD.
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Old 10-09-2012, 6:41 PM
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I have and always lube all the parts on the chart and I also shoot every time with the rifle firm against my shoulder. The ammo I run 90% of the time in my gun is PMC X-tac or Winchester 5.56 frangible rounds. Never had a problem with either in the AR or my Mini... I spoke to a guy in a tactical store who said he had similar issues in his rifle and he switched his buffer weight to a lighter one (H1 weight) and it solved the issue.
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Old 10-09-2012, 7:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USFSFire View Post
I have and always lube all the parts on the chart and I also shoot every time with the rifle firm against my shoulder. The ammo I run 90% of the time in my gun is PMC X-tac or Winchester 5.56 frangible rounds. Never had a problem with either in the AR or my Mini... I spoke to a guy in a tactical store who said he had similar issues in his rifle and he switched his buffer weight to a lighter one (H1 weight) and it solved the issue.
The condition is a known one and I get my butt kicked every time I bring it up to the "BCM or die guys"..
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Old 10-09-2012, 7:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USFSFire View Post
I have and always lube all the parts on the chart and I also shoot every time with the rifle firm against my shoulder. The ammo I run 90% of the time in my gun is PMC X-tac or Winchester 5.56 frangible rounds. Never had a problem with either in the AR or my Mini... I spoke to a guy in a tactical store who said he had similar issues in his rifle and he switched his buffer weight to a lighter one (H1 weight) and it solved the issue.
That makes total sense, most people don't know that the H2 buffers are for the harsh m4 gas system correction of "bolt bounce", so when they put it in the milder "pulsed" midlength system they experience the short stroke.

some issues may just be mix matched parts and nothing more than some mere "tuning" can correct the issues.

Last edited by torquefliteterror; 10-09-2012 at 7:47 PM..
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Old 10-09-2012, 8:11 PM
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Originally Posted by dieselpower View Post
The condition is a known one and I get my butt kicked every time I bring it up to the "BCM or die guys"..
Never an issue with my BCM middy

Running BCM BCG and DI.. I wish I could help OP but I've never experienced a jam so I have no experience lol sorry
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Old 10-09-2012, 8:44 PM
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Never an issue with my BCM middy

Running BCM BCG and DI.. I wish I could help OP but I've never experienced a jam so I have no experience lol sorry
they "all" don't have the issue. It was posted on their website for a time, then removed. Its sometimes happens with cheap ammo. Its a fact of life with a mil-spec gas port. Sometimes the issue is a midlength gas system with a mil-spec port and a carbine buffer and some gunk.

Its not just a matter of shooting the gun a few times and calling it good. you have to dirty the gun and then make sure it works. If you are having trouble after 300 rounds your idea to drop the buffer weight is a good one.
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Old 10-09-2012, 8:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselpower View Post
they "all" don't have the issue. It was posted on their website for a time, then removed. Its sometimes happens with cheap ammo. Its a fact of life with a mil-spec gas port. Sometimes the issue is a midlength gas system with a mil-spec port and a carbine buffer and some gunk.

Its not just a matter of shooting the gun a few times and calling it good. you have to dirty the gun and then make sure it works. If you are having trouble after 300 rounds your idea to drop the buffer weight is a good one.
I know I just wanted to state I havnt run I to any issues.. I didn't mean it as a disagreement or saying it was untrue or couldn't happen...

I'm just glad I havnt run into that.... (Yet) that being said I only run XM/green tip stuff... Been tempted to try wolf for a little while and save on costs and see how it runs...
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Old 10-09-2012, 9:20 PM
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I know I just wanted to state I havnt run I to any issues.. I didn't mean it as a disagreement or saying it was untrue or couldn't happen...

I'm just glad I havnt run into that.... (Yet) that being said I only run XM/green tip stuff... Been tempted to try wolf for a little while and save on costs and see how it runs...
You need to try it. You should know the limits of your firearm...that way its not a surprise when you don't want a surprise...

My rig can't do 40 and 50 after 200 rounds. I can run 62 to about 2500, then I need a squirt of lube. 55 I can run about the same. I am scared to run wolff /steel case... I know...f-ing stupid..just a FUD fear in me.
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Old 10-09-2012, 9:30 PM
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So if it is a buffer weight what would you guys recommend? Currently I have just the stock carbine weight and spring. I haven't put it on a scale yet but I believe its 3oz. Is there a lighter weight? What about changing to a softer spring? Or maybe a combination of them?
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Old 10-09-2012, 9:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselpower View Post
You need to try it. You should know the limits of your firearm...that way its not a surprise when you don't want a surprise...

My rig can't do 40 and 50 after 200 rounds. I can run 62 to about 2500, then I need a squirt of lube. 55 I can run about the same. I am scared to run wolff /steel case... I know...f-ing stupid..just a FUD fear in me.
Yea I've been temped lately since I got my AK and pretty much only buy wolf... Got me curious and I know man me too I call bs but I'm always like steel or brass steel or brass... Then I make some excuse why to pick brass but I'm just scared...

But recientley I've just been eh about my guns and want one to break... 7 guns and not a single malfunction in about 15k rounds total... I almost want one for once and I run my guns and am lazy with the cleaning now...

I'm thinking my next 5.56 buy is going to be some sort of steel to put my AR to the test and actually try to get a malfunction short of the dirt tests..
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Old 10-09-2012, 9:36 PM
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Originally Posted by USFSFire View Post
So if it is a buffer weight what would you guys recommend? Currently I have just the stock carbine weight and spring. I haven't put it on a scale yet but I believe its 3oz. Is there a lighter weight? What about changing to a softer spring? Or maybe a combination of them?
have you lubed the gas rings and greased the rails and locking lugs? I would start there. It could be you just dried out the mild amount of lube they put on it from the factory.

I've seen countless people at the range experiencing the same issue as you , and just about everytime their BCG is dry as a bone.
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Old 10-09-2012, 9:50 PM
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I actually lube the BCG after every trip to the range. I usually use Winchester break free then use lucas gun oil. Or just plain ole CLP.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:02 PM
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...

Last edited by cal3gunner; 09-09-2013 at 12:34 PM..
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USFSFire View Post
I actually lube the BCG after every trip to the range. I usually use Winchester break free then use lucas gun oil. Or just plain ole CLP.
have you tried a new batch of ammo or a known good functioning mag? You don't have too many options on buffers since you say you have the standard carbine buffer. they only go up in weight.
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:09 AM
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When I shoot the gun empty the bolt catch catches the BCG at the neck of the bolt just before the carrier itself obviously not where it is supposed to. I run c products, magpul, and colt mags, and since the issue I have shot PMC Bronze and Winchester 5.56.
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:10 AM
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Oh and idk if it makes a difference but its a Full Auto BCG from Bravo Company.
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Old 10-10-2012, 2:28 PM
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My friend's gun was shortstroking , he took it apart and found the gas block had melted. He never told me where it came from . (I suspect a cheap chinese import)

The AR is fairly simple as far as mechanical devices go.
take off the handguard, and flash suppressor and remove your gas system. check to make sure nothing silly has occured.

also check your carrier key and your rings. maybe something came loose or melted.

It's just odd for it to work well for 200+ rounds then start failing.... It has to be something easy for you to track down. you just have to do invasive surgery.
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Old 10-10-2012, 7:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torquefliteterror View Post

My friend's gun was shortstroking , he took it apart and found the gas block had melted. He never told me where it came from . (I suspect a cheap chinese import)

The AR is fairly simple as far as mechanical devices go.
take off the handguard, and flash suppressor and remove your gas system. check to make sure nothing silly has occured.

also check your carrier key and your rings. maybe something came loose or melted.

It's just odd for it to work well for 200+ rounds then start failing.... It has to be something easy for you to track down. you just have to do invasive surgery.
there is another thread about these...
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Old 10-10-2012, 7:18 PM
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there is another thread about these...
Do you know which vendor is selling them? I know China can produce decent to high quality stuff at times but some of the lesser skilled Chinese manufacturers produce outright crap.

The stuff can look spot on but the choice of materials ruins it.
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Old 10-10-2012, 7:31 PM
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My BCM middy short-strokes when i use wolf in it, and i think its because i have a cheap POS BCG in it. if i keep it really wet the problem isnt all that bad but does still happen, eats brass ammo just fine, heres a video of it with a slide fire eating through the brass stuff:

My reloads work beautifully in it too, and they are cheaper than wolf

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Old 10-10-2012, 7:36 PM
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Rifle's symptoms sounds like it's under gassed. Gas block, gas key, gas tube. Gas leak. Google "ar15 short stroking". BTW warranty is an option? You can always swap upper and lower with a buddy and see if the problem persists.


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Old 10-10-2012, 8:01 PM
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How does the rifle run with M855 or M193?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeuerFrei View Post
Rifle's symptoms sounds like it's under gassed. Gas block, gas key, gas tube. Gas leak. Google "ar15 short stroking". BTW warranty is an option? You can always swap upper and lower with a buddy and see if the problem persists.


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I wouldn't consider it under gassed if it is short stroking with weak ammo. BCM uses gas port sizes for NATO spec 5.56 ammo like M855 and it is well known that some of rifles don't like weaker ammo.

I have 2 BCM mid length rifles and with both they sometimes won't lock the bolt to the rear with cheaper ammo like pmc bronze and I have had short stroking issues with wolf in one of them.

This is a trade off of having a gas port that is designed for NATO ammo, and why some other commercial rifles run larger ports so they will run on weak ammo. It is up to the buyer to decide what they want in a rifle prior to purchase.

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Old 10-10-2012, 8:13 PM
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And I'm not trying to defend BCM in any way, it could be an issue with the upper. I'm just giving my experience with the same uppers and state the way BCM designs their weapons.

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Old 10-10-2012, 8:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CK_32 View Post
I know I just wanted to state I havnt run I to any issues.. I didn't mean it as a disagreement or saying it was untrue or couldn't happen...

I'm just glad I havnt run into that.... (Yet) that being said I only run XM/green tip stuff... Been tempted to try wolf for a little while and save on costs and see how it runs...
Midlength gas with a carbine buffer system should run fine with Wolf. Its when you run a rifle length buffer system like I do that sometimes has issues with Wolf.
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Old 10-10-2012, 8:21 PM
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Originally Posted by MXRider View Post
How does the rifle run with M855 or M193?



I wouldn't consider it under gassed if it is short stroking with weak ammo. BCM uses gas port sizes for NATO spec 5.56 ammo like M855 and it is well known that some of rifles don't like weaker ammo.

I have 2 BCM mid length rifles and with both they sometimes won't lock the bolt to the rear with cheaper ammo like pmc bronze and I have had short stroking issues with wolf in one of them.

This is a trade off of having a gas port that is designed for NATO ammo, and why some other commercial rifles run larger ports so they will run on weak ammo. It is up to the buyer to decide what they want in a rifle prior to purchase.

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Hmm maybe that's the issue with my friend's Spikes Tac rifle. He shoots PMC bronze and the American Eagle .223 and whatever else he can get for the low. Every now and then he'll get a bad jam on the next round because of short stroking.

I've definitely got to try some of that M855.
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Old 10-10-2012, 8:22 PM
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Midlength gas with a carbine buffer system should run fine with Wolf. Its when you run a rifle length buffer system like I do that sometimes has issues with Wolf.
Not always. It depends on the size of the gas port on the barrel. BCM mid length with weak ammo shortstroking is a know phenomenon for some.

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Old 10-10-2012, 8:24 PM
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Not always. It depends on the size of the gas port on the barrel. BCM mid length with weak ammo shortstroking is a know phenomenon for some.

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True, just not in all cases. I run a BCM 14.5" upper with BCM FA BCG.
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Old 10-10-2012, 8:40 PM
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Both of mine are 16" with their BCG, H buffer and carbine spring.

The one that chokes on wolf is pretty new though, only about 500 rounds through it.

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Old 10-10-2012, 8:48 PM
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You summed it up pretty good right here

The BCM is ported for full pressure ammo.... If one intends on running low pressure ammo like the russian stuff, they need to port it larger.....

I know there is no real standard in the Ar world cause I have assembled a ton of rifles and pistol uppers and have found quite a large range of port sizes....

It just depends on what the company chooses when they place their order for barrels.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MXRider View Post
How does the rifle run with M855 or M193?



I wouldn't consider it under gassed if it is short stroking with weak ammo. BCM uses gas port sizes for NATO spec 5.56 ammo like M855 and it is well known that some of rifles don't like weaker ammo.

I have 2 BCM mid length rifles and with both they sometimes won't lock the bolt to the rear with cheaper ammo like pmc bronze and I have had short stroking issues with wolf in one of them.

This is a trade off of having a gas port that is designed for NATO ammo, and why some other commercial rifles run larger ports so they will run on weak ammo. It is up to the buyer to decide what they want in a rifle prior to purchase.

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Old 10-11-2012, 5:12 AM
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All this talk of gas ports brings up an interesting point. OP, what type of barrel did you get? I got the 'standard' BCM HBAR, not the BFH. Wolf has been fine for me.
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Old 10-12-2012, 8:57 AM
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Shoot honestly I have ran wolf ammo through the rifle as well as other cheap stuff. My incident happened while I was shooting about 150 rounds of ammo at a decent pace, I got about to round 100 when I had a failure to feed and its been single shot ever since. Before that I had around 200 rounds through it with no problems and after the issue I have had around 30 ,mostly single shot, sometimes I'll be lucky and get 3-4 off before it decides to throw a fit again. The rifle has been great with all ammo so honestly I would rule out that and mags, I clean the rifle religiously at all the right points which I compared with the diagram above... so I'd like to rule out that one as well. But I did come here looking for some good advice and I thank you all for participating to help me out. I tried to look on BCM's website but it seems they are down. However I looked on their other website and it says that they use a H buffer in the recce16 model, the one that I ordered from them has no markings anyone know what this means? Also I am going to take off the gas tube today and see what I find.
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Old 10-12-2012, 8:57 AM
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Shoot honestly I have ran wolf ammo through the rifle as well as other cheap stuff. My incident happened while I was shooting about 150 rounds of ammo at a decent pace, I got about to round 100 when I had a failure to feed and its been single shot ever since. Before that I had around 200 rounds through it with no problems and after the issue I have had around 30 ,mostly single shot, sometimes I'll be lucky and get 3-4 off before it decides to throw a fit again. The rifle has been great with all ammo so honestly I would rule out that and mags, I clean the rifle religiously at all the right points which I compared with the diagram above... so I'd like to rule out that one as well. But I did come here looking for some good advice and I thank you all for participating to help me out. I tried to look on BCM's website but it seems they are down. However I looked on their other website and it says that they use a H buffer in the recce16 model, the one that I ordered from them has no markings anyone know what this means? Also I am going to take off the gas tube today and see what I find.
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  #38  
Old 10-12-2012, 9:32 AM
MXRider MXRider is offline
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So it is now a bolt action only? Check your gas key on top of the bolt carrier, make sure it isn't loose. Check and make sure the gas rings are not damaged, also make sure the gas tube isn't obstructed. If you have a known good BCG or know someone who has one, swap it out and see if that does anything for you. If that doesn't work you could have an armorer look at it and see what the issue is as it could be with the front sight post/gas block or the port itself. And if you can't get it resolved it might have to go back to BCM, their warranty service is very good, but you will be without the rifle for a month or so.

If the buffer doesn't have any marking then it is a carbine buffer and is lighter than an H buffer.
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  #39  
Old 10-12-2012, 9:34 AM
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sd_shooter sd_shooter is online now
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Originally you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by USFSFire
I have and always lube all the parts on the chart and I also shoot every time with the rifle firm against my shoulder. The ammo I run 90% of the time in my gun is PMC X-tac or Winchester 5.56 FRANGIBLE rounds.
Then someone suggested:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MXRider View Post
How does the rifle run with M855 or M193?
Even later you wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by USFSFire View Post
Shoot honestly I have ran wolf ammo through the rifle as well as other cheap stuff. My incident happened while I was shooting about 150 rounds of ammo at a decent pace, I got about to round 100 when I had a failure to feed and its been single shot ever since. Before that I had around 200 rounds through it with no problems and after the issue I have had around 30 ,mostly single shot, sometimes I'll be lucky and get 3-4 off before it decides to throw a fit again. The rifle has been great with all ammo so honestly I would rule out that and mags, ...
So, the Winchester was frangible? Aren't those something like 45grain? I would not be surprised if they gave you trouble. And I wouldn't rule out the ammo until you've run some M855 or M193 as suggested.

Example of crappy Frangible ammo:

Last edited by sd_shooter; 10-12-2012 at 9:42 AM..
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:48 AM
USFSFire USFSFire is offline
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Yes sadly it is, gas key is firmly in place, gas rings are good, gas tube is a pain to get off already broke a allen wrench trying to get the gas block off. Maybe I am wrong but if I have shot steel rounds, .223 remington,and 5.56 x-tac(mostly), with no issues for several hundred rounds I would think that it would fire a 62gr m855. I've fired a lesser quality ammo and have had no issues until recently I think that if I fire a higher quality round I'll still have the same issues. I'm not excluding it though. Yea the frangible were 45 grain. During the time the error occurred I was firing federal .223
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