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  #1  
Old 10-03-2012, 7:02 PM
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Default Fish and Game Code 2006

To all LEO hunters,

Be careful when you are hunting with your rifle. Despite the fact that HR218 allows you to carry a concealed loaded weapon nationwide, it apparently does not allow you to carry a loaded rifle in your vehicle out in the middle of nowhere.

I had the pleasure of encountering a Fish and Game Lieutenant who promptly cited me for F&G 2006, even after I badged him and honestly told him that I did not think I was doing anything illegal, since I carry my handgun loaded all the time. Spirit of the law...not so much with this guy.

I'm fighting the charge and we'll see how it goes. Cops giving cops a misdemeanor cite for carrying a loaded weapon off-duty...go figure.
  #2  
Old 10-03-2012, 9:04 PM
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Originally Posted by jdawggy79 View Post
Cops giving cops a misdemeanor cite for carrying a loaded weapon off-duty...go figure.
First, not a LEO.

Second, good to learn what you learned the hard way.

Third, if you were in his shoes, and made contact with a non-LEO regarding the same issue, would you have issued the misdemeanor?

I understand that LEOs give other LEOs breaks from time to time (not all the time and not every time). I am sure that LEOs do give non-LEOs breaks from time to time as well (maybe not as often).

But with all due respect, if you were breaking the law, the citation was deserved. As I am sure you are fully aware, LEOs are not exempt from laws and certainly not above them.

Had he issued you a verbal warning (regardless of anyone LEO status), that would have been sufficient in my book as well. He just choose to use a step above that. Which does suck regardless of who or what you are. Never feels good to get a swat on the butt.
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  #3  
Old 10-03-2012, 9:35 PM
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Erik, in regards to your question if I would issue a cite to a non LEO...the answer is "it depends." It depends on the totality of the circumstances and whether or not I thought the person would learn from the contact or not. The function of this law is to prevent people from hunting game from their vehicle, which was not my intention.

I was not asking for a break...I really thought I was authorized to carry a loaded gun with me off duty...and, in fact, my attorney thinks the same.

One thing is for sure, I would have never issued a cite of this nature to a fellow officer for this type of "violation." Cops are trained pros on handguns and rifles and are authorized to carry off duty under the federal LEOSA act. As an LEO, what if I had stumbled on a violent poacher who had just illegally taken game? As a state LEO, would DFG expect me to at least observe and report? I think so. I have the right to carry a weapon and a duty to defend myself and others. The game warden could have easily warned me and told me about the vague law and I would have gladly abided by the rules. This is a concept called "spirit of the law" that extends to the general public as well. It was painfully evident that I was a prized statistic for the officer, and not a brother in arms.
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:23 PM
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I am fairly certain you have an affirmative defense. How did he even find the gun in the first place?

Are they making you ride the desk till the court case is over?
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Old 10-04-2012, 2:29 AM
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It seems like F&G codes supersede PC. LE can carry concealed off duty all the time, yet cannot if you are hunting during archery season....

I've typically found that most F&G are by the book, not spirit of the law....
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Old 10-04-2012, 2:54 AM
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Is it just me or does it seem like F&G has a whole bunch of lieutenant's? Nearly everyone I that I have ever encountered was a lieutenant, and yeah most of them have a black and white perspective on the law. Seems kind of CS of him to write that tag under the circumstances. Good luck in court, I'm sure I'm not the only one who is interested in the outcome.
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Old 10-04-2012, 5:46 AM
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I worked with the F&G LT in charge of my area one night, guy was a total loose cannon. I think he thought he was like the lone ranger or something.
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Old 10-04-2012, 6:12 AM
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Just think what would have happened if you were not a LEO?
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Old 10-04-2012, 7:34 AM
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When you are driving in your patrol car while on duty do you have a round in the chamber of your duty rifle? I would guess not due to safety issues.... The point of HR218 was to allow LEO's to carry concealed in all 50 states. I am guessing you were contacted while hunting and your rifle was your means of take. So why should HR218 allow you to carry a long gun loaded (2006 states one in the chamber) in a vehicle to give you an advantage in taking game? Unsafe practice carrying a loaded long gun in a vehicle and of all people a Leo should know that....... Man up take care of your ticket chances are it will be dropped to an infraction or dropped in the interest of justice.
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Old 10-04-2012, 8:30 AM
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F&G code 2006 only exempts on duty L/E or Military or when actually going on/off duty, not when off duty. Seems when the legislators wrote F&G code 2006, they did not want to exempt off duty/retired L/E or off duty Military when engaged in hunting.

F&G code does allow you to have cartridges in the firearm's magazine, just not in the chamber when in a vehicle. This differs from the penal code when you're in areas where it's not allowed to discharge a Firearm. Just from a safety standpoint, it does make sense for long guns.

Where this gets enforced to silliness is when I've read several instances on California hunting forums in which a hunter has a firearm outside of the vehicle,leaning up against a trailer or vehicle and gets cited by F&G for a violation of F&G code 2006.

Since the O/P brought up HR218/ LEOSA, I would have to assume he is not a California LEO. It will be interesting to see what the Judge's take is on this, but the way F&G code 2006 is written, it doesn't exempt off duty L/E Military.


It seems when actually engaged in hunting, we all have to obey F&G rules, which sometimes conflicts with other California or Federal law.

O/P, let us know what the outcome of this is.
  #11  
Old 10-04-2012, 9:31 AM
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Originally Posted by cowboykenny View Post
I worked with the F&G LT in charge of my area one night, guy was a total loose cannon. I think he thought he was like the lone ranger or something.
Well Kenny, they kind of are... 200 some odd wardens for the whole state!!! Up here HE is always getting into stuff. Fun stuff! I love it when he works our area.

BTW, saw your captain last weekend at the graduation... Way to cherry pick that recruit huh!
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  #12  
Old 10-04-2012, 12:15 PM
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When you are driving in your patrol car while on duty do you have a round in the chamber of your duty rifle? I would guess not due to safety issues.... The point of HR218 was to allow LEO's to carry concealed in all 50 states. I am guessing you were contacted while hunting and your rifle was your means of take. So why should HR218 allow you to carry a long gun loaded (2006 states one in the chamber) in a vehicle to give you an advantage in taking game? Unsafe practice carrying a loaded long gun in a vehicle and of all people a Leo should know that....... Man up take care of your ticket chances are it will be dropped to an infraction or dropped in the interest of justice.
You are right, we do not carry our rifles or shotguns loaded in the patrol cars. However, there have been many times when I have taken the long gun out and racked one in the chamber, primarily when responding to a "hot call." I am sure DFG contacts quite a few heavily armed right wing nuts and "sovereign citizens" during hunting season. With this in mind, in my case, I wasn't carrying for an "advantage" to take game, I was carrying the rifle loaded because I carry my handgun loaded all the time and this was my primary off-duty weapon at the time. I did not have my off-duty handgun with me. How is a loaded long gun any more dangerous than a loaded handgun? Show me the statistics - AD's happen with handguns as well.

Anyhow, with regards to the "man up" part of your comment, I was already doing that and planning on showing up for court. With comments like yours and a username like, "thingreenline," (AKA Game Warden POA) I can only presume you are DFG as well. I don't knock you guys for what you do, in fact, I have profound respect for what DFG does with regards to protecting California's natural resources. However, I do think that professional courtesy is in order when dealing with a law-abiding off-duty LEO who is honestly trying to play by the myriad hunting rules of California.
  #13  
Old 10-04-2012, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by tyrist View Post
I am fairly certain you have an affirmative defense. How did he even find the gun in the first place?

Are they making you ride the desk till the court case is over?
Fortunately, no desk duty. My supervisor chuckled when I notified him because he thought the cite was CS as well.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:30 PM
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LEOs bashing LEOs. Who would have thought it could happen on calguns?
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:34 PM
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I love how u think because u r a leo exempts u from the law.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jdawggy79 View Post

One thing is for sure, I would have never issued a cite of this nature to a fellow officer for this type of "violation." Cops are trained pros on handguns and rifles....
While reading this, that glock 40 DEA agent came to mind along with all the tons of AD LEO videos I've seen.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:54 PM
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I love how you are ignorant that he isn't arguing he is above the law...he's arguing that he is following overriding federal law per LEOSA.
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Old 10-04-2012, 1:18 PM
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It's not LEO's Bashing LEO's. Its a hunter with a loaded long gun in his vehicle that received a ticket that just so happened to be a LEO. I personally follow the professional courtesy route whenever possible for things like this because when it hits the fan I need all the help I can get and I don't need to be getting more enemies than I already have. That being said I have notice an increase in contacting off duty Leo's that think the Fish and Game Code does not apply to them IE illegal methods of take, over limits of fish, spotlighting and trespassing and then want professional courtesy.

I know this is not the case with you and you thought that you were covered. Letter of the law would have been a rifle leaning on your car. Spirit is it being loaded in your car. Sounds like you got the intent of the law.

I have seen a lot more AD's come from long guns loaded on the front seat than handguns in a holster on your hip.

My man up comment comes from the fact you found in violation on a legitimate violation and did not receive professional courtesy after you "badged" him. You came on to Calguns to complain how you were wronged by fish and game.

Would I write that cite? Given the facts you have given me maybe not but regardless you were cited anyway.

I hope it all works out to your benefit and goes away.
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Old 10-04-2012, 2:16 PM
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I love how u think because u r a leo exempts u from the law.
I am pretty certain it does with respect to this particular violation.
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Old 10-04-2012, 3:25 PM
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Originally Posted by john67elco View Post
While reading this, that glock 40 DEA agent came to mind along with all the tons of AD LEO videos I've seen.
Shall we go down the same road with all the youtube videos of non-leo idiots shooting themselves???

Stupid humans are stupid. Profession doesn't exempt that.
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Old 10-04-2012, 3:51 PM
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Originally Posted by thingreenline View Post
It's not LEO's Bashing LEO's. Its a hunter with a loaded long gun in his vehicle that received a ticket that just so happened to be a LEO. I personally follow the professional courtesy route whenever possible for things like this because when it hits the fan I need all the help I can get and I don't need to be getting more enemies than I already have. That being said I have notice an increase in contacting off duty Leo's that think the Fish and Game Code does not apply to them IE illegal methods of take, over limits of fish, spotlighting and trespassing and then want professional courtesy.

I know this is not the case with you and you thought that you were covered. Letter of the law would have been a rifle leaning on your car. Spirit is it being loaded in your car. Sounds like you got the intent of the law.

I have seen a lot more AD's come from long guns loaded on the front seat than handguns in a holster on your hip.

My man up comment comes from the fact you found in violation on a legitimate violation and did not receive professional courtesy after you "badged" him. You came on to Calguns to complain how you were wronged by fish and game.

Would I write that cite? Given the facts you have given me maybe not but regardless you were cited anyway.

I hope it all works out to your benefit and goes away.
Thanks for your informative response, thingreenline. I agree with you that this is not LEO's bashing LEO's. When it comes to LEO's doing stupid things like "illegal methods of take, over limits of fish, spotlighting and trespassing," I agree that DFG should fang the off-duty LEO's. They absolutely should know better and there is no excuse - similar to DUI or Domestic Violence involving an off-duty LEO.

In my case, I understand that I was cited for a legitimate code, and I am willing and ready to face the consequences. However, I still do not agree with the citation because I feel that officers should be allowed to carry a concealed, loaded weapon when off-duty, regardless if they are hunting or not. As you said, if it "hit the fan" and you were fighting for your life with a heavily-armed sovereign citizen, I am sure you would want me or any other off-duty LEO to come to your aid with a loaded weapon.

In your experience, how often are these F&G 2006 citations dropped to infractions? If this gets dropped to an infraction, I am willing to take the swat and just pay the fine to move on. Anyhow, thanks for everyone's perspectives.
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Old 10-04-2012, 3:58 PM
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You know what really sucks... Its not the fact the LEO gave an LEO a ticket or didn't but what really sucks is there are so many laws now that EVERYONE is breaking them almost daily.
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Old 10-04-2012, 4:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jdawggy79 View Post
Thanks for your informative response, thingreenline. I agree with you that this is not LEO's bashing LEO's. When it comes to LEO's doing stupid things like "illegal methods of take, over limits of fish, spotlighting and trespassing," I agree that DFG should fang the off-duty LEO's. They absolutely should know better and there is no excuse - similar to DUI or Domestic Violence involving an off-duty LEO.

In my case, I understand that I was cited for a legitimate code, and I am willing and ready to face the consequences. However, I still do not agree with the citation because I feel that officers should be allowed to carry a concealed, loaded weapon when off-duty, regardless if they are hunting or not. As you said, if it "hit the fan" and you were fighting for your life with a heavily-armed sovereign citizen, I am sure you would want me or any other off-duty LEO to come to your aid with a loaded weapon.

In your experience, how often are these F&G 2006 citations dropped to infractions? If this gets dropped to an infraction, I am willing to take the swat and just pay the fine to move on. Anyhow, thanks for everyone's perspectives.
It would have been hunter bashing LEO if you had not tried to get out of the cite by identifying yourself as a LEO. But, the warden citied you knowing that you were a LEO trying to use your pofesional position to get out of a citation for breaking the law.

So, if you feel the law is just, the criminal (the one breaking the law) should be hung out to dry. But, if you don't FEEL the law SHOULD apply to you, you think it should be ignored?

I agree that LEOs and everyone else SHOULD have the right to carry a concealed loaded firearm for self defense. But, that's not always the case. There are certain activities that even LEOs can't carry while participating in. It's their CHOICE whether to participate in those activities or not so, they are not prohibited from concealed carry unless they opt to participate in activities like bow hunting or attending certain venues where the property/business owner doesn't allow LEOs or anyone to carry. However, most off duty LEOs do not have the authority to loaded open carry long guns, do they? Carrying a loaded (per DFG definition) long gun in a vehicle while hunting is something that isn't the brightest thing for anyone to do and is a strong indicator that one is thinking about quickly shooting from the vehicle if the chance arises. So, while many think that the spirit of the federal law should allow LEOS to always be able to loaded open carry long guns while hunting, the spirit and the letter of Ca's F&G laws are there to prevent accidents and poaching. Sorry but, I've known morethan a few LEOs who thought they were above the law and could poach game because they have a brass pass. While the game warden could have just stongly lectured you and given you a warning, he's probably had more than a few past encounters with other LEOs who pushed the wrong buttons in trying to talk their way out of legitimate citations like the one he gave you. The simple fact that you feel so slighted that you started this thread gives me the feeling that you might have had a bit of an attitude yourself. If so you, of all people, should have known what to expect. If not, I'm just reading between the line wrong and I'll sincerely apologize in advance for that.
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  #24  
Old 10-04-2012, 5:01 PM
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The simple fact that you feel so slighted that you started this thread gives me the feeling that you might have had a bit of an attitude yourself. If so you, of all people, should have known what to expect. If not, I'm just reading between the line wrong and I'll sincerely apologize in advance for that.
You are reading between the lines. I was very cordial and professional with the Lieutenant. In fact, I helped him render my rifle safe (per his request). He could not figure out how to unlock the bolt mounted safety on my Ruger Gunsite Scout which was in the "on" position. Despite what my wife tells me, I'm not that stupid to roll around with a long gun off safety. I even joked around with him and talked a little bit of shop, but he still saw fit to give me a ticket. Regardless of feeling slighted, as the tired out cliche goes, "it is what it is."

Contrary to a couple of opinions here, this thread was not started for me to bash the DFG. I said it before and I'll say it again - I have a deep respect for what CA DFG does to conserve CA's natural resources. I started the thread to remind LEO's who genuinely feel justified in carrying a loaded firearm off duty, that you cannot carry one in the chamber when hunting. Also, LEO's should not expect leniency from a DFG game warden, despite your best intentions. That is all.
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Old 10-04-2012, 6:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jdawggy79 View Post
You are reading between the lines. I was very cordial and professional with the Lieutenant. In fact, I helped him render my rifle safe (per his request). He could not figure out how to unlock the bolt mounted safety on my Ruger Gunsite Scout which was in the "on" position.

Then I will apologize again.

May I ask what prompted him to check your gun in the first place? I had 3 separate interactions with 3 different wardens in one day last month. Not one of them even asked about our firearms.
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Old 10-04-2012, 6:20 PM
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Then I will apologize again.

May I ask what prompted him to check your gun in the first place?
He was actually undercover and was posing as a hunter on an ATV. As we were driving along a rocky dirt trail in the mountains, he flagged us down asking if we had seen any bucks. Shortly thereafter, he took off his camo jacket, revealed his uniform and stated he wanted to do an inspection of our tags and licenses.

After checking our valid tags, he asked if we were carrying any loaded guns in the vehicle. I immediately told him that I was an LEO and that my rifle was loaded for officer safety purposes. The rest of the contact is history.
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Old 10-04-2012, 6:36 PM
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I believe there was recently a case involving this and LEOSA, which overrode the F&G section. I will post a link if I can find it.
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Old 10-04-2012, 7:16 PM
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Originally Posted by fullrearview View Post
Shall we go down the same road with all the youtube videos of non-leo idiots shooting themselves???

Stupid humans are stupid. Profession doesn't exempt that.
I never claimed non-LEO idiots were pros
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Old 10-04-2012, 9:15 PM
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I believe there was recently a case involving this and LEOSA, which overrode the F&G section. I will post a link if I can find it.
Please do! Any advice is appreciated!
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Old 10-05-2012, 1:29 AM
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I haven't been able to find the article yet. I recently had a flood of LEOSA info and am still sifting thru it. I may not have saved it, because I'm not a hunter.

The problem I see is that most of LEOSA refers to concealed weapons, but I think you might have a good defense. You might want to get an assessment from a good attorney such as Chuck Michel. I think they offer a free case assessment. Worth looking into at least.
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Old 10-05-2012, 1:33 AM
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Originally Posted by jbolton View Post
I love how u think because u r a leo exempts u from the law.
LEOSA allows law enforcement to carry and supersedes state laws. It is a federal law.

Don't go away mad, just go away.
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Old 10-05-2012, 8:22 AM
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It seems to me that one of the last PORAC magazines,had an article on the federal law regarding off duty carry. Can't find my copy now,but it seems that it was only an issue or two ago.
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:21 PM
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Bah, I'm pretty sure there is a relatively recent case from a circuit court (4th?) where the judge dismissed a case against a LEO with a Rifle on LEOSA grounds, but I can't find it either...

LEOSA is about "firearms" not "handguns"
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by jbolton View Post
I love how u think because u r a leo exempts u from the law.
Tangent here, WTF is up with text speak. Am I the only one that thinks "u" instead of "you" and "r" instead of "are" is incredibly lazy, sloppy and unprofessional?

If someone doesn't care enough to use proper grammar I usually don't care enough to even try to listen to their point.

Back to the regular topic....
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by john67elco View Post
I never claimed non-LEO idiots were pros
Contrary to the Calguns keyboard commandos with their MOLLE plate carries and tacticool guns, your average LEO is a considerably more proficient with firearms than your average gun owner.

I know the cool crowd likes to feel smug that they are rambo and cops barney fife, but...
  #36  
Old 10-05-2012, 1:22 PM
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Originally Posted by IrishJoe3 View Post
Contrary to the Calguns keyboard commandos with their MOLLE plate carries and tacticool guns, your average LEO is a considerably more proficient with firearms than your average gun owner.

I know the cool crowd likes to feel smug that they are rambo and cops barney fife, but...
I grew up with a LEO father but, he was a shooter and hunter decades before he was a LEO. I will agree that shooters who happen to be LEOs are normally pretty proficient but, I've seen plenty of LEOs who really do not know how to shoot. I will say that every single LEO that I've seen shoot who I know was trained at Quantico is very proficient (except the one dumb azz ex-DEA agent). Other academies seem to lack this quality of training. I've shot competitively with LEOs who are average to pretty good. However, when I worked at a range, I also saw the "other LEOs". You know, the ones that only shoot one box of ammo the week before they have to qualify and always have trouble hitting a full sized silloutte at 7 yards. There are far too many of these types around. I'm surprised anyone would partner with them knowing that their firearms skills can't be relied upon in times of need. Of course, this is not the type of LEO who would frequent a gun forum so, I'm not talking about anyone here.

Now, I should clarify something else. I'm not sure that your post reads the way you ment it to. You wrote

Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishJoe3 View Post
Contrary to the Calguns keyboard commandos with their MOLLE plate carries and tacticool guns, your average LEO is a considerably more proficient with firearms than your average gun owner.

I know the cool crowd likes to feel smug that they are rambo and cops barney fife, but...
I feel that I either missed something or you mistakenly think that the average gun owner is a tactifool mall ninja. If that's your view, I'm sorry. If you are comparing tactifool idiots to the average LEO, I'd agree with you but, remember that there are more than a few tacticool, mall ninja, LEOs and that the majority of gun owners are more apt to use paper plates when eating moles than spend the money on special Molle plates.
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Old 10-05-2012, 1:40 PM
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I love how you are ignorant that he isn't arguing he is above the law...he's arguing that he is following overriding federal law per LEOSA.
That's fine and dandy but there's this thing called state rights. This case is actually a 10th Amendment issue.
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Old 10-05-2012, 1:40 PM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
I feel that I either missed something or you mistakenly think that the average gun owner is a tactifool mall ninja. If that's your view, I'm sorry. If you are comparing tactifool idiots to the average LEO, I'd agree with you but, remember that there are more than a few tacticool, mall ninja, LEOs and that the majority of gun owners are more apt to use paper plates when eating moles than spend the money on special Molle plates.
I LOLed, you’re right.
See, that’s what I get when I fire from the hip like that. ;-) No, I simply was poking fun at a few folks here that love to scoff at how untrained LEOs are compared to them, as they strut around in every tactical accessory known to man. I find it amusing.
There are plenty of non LEOs that are excellent, amazingly proficient. And Plenty of LEOs who are….not. But I gotta say from my life experience the majority of the “WTF are you thinking” moments involving firearms have mostly been non LEO. If that even means anything.
  #39  
Old 10-05-2012, 2:24 PM
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Bottom line is this.

F&G code states when engaged in hunting and traveling in a vehicle your hunting firearm shall not be loaded. Loaded mag is legal. Bullet in a firing position is not legal. The fact that the op states an I quote "even after I badged him" is just arrogant. You broke the law and deserve the ticket that you received.

It's the same as if you were bow hunting during bow season only, and had a concealed pistol. You would be breaking the law, and would deserve the ticket that you would get. Being a leo has nothing to do with it.

Last edited by jbolton; 10-05-2012 at 2:30 PM..
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Old 10-05-2012, 2:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jbolton View Post
It's the same as if you were bow hunting during bow season only, and had a concealed pistol. You would be breaking the law, and would deserve the ticket that you would get. Being a leo has nothing to do with it.
For the purposes of this discussion, it might have everything to do with it per the Federal Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act (LEOSA)
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