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Calgunners in Service This forum is a place for our active duty and deployed members to share, request and have a bit of home where ever they are.

View Poll Results: Would the United States Military be better off with a SMG?
There is no need the M4 is Small Enough 63 70.79%
There is a need but who cares 10 11.24%
There is a need 6 6.74%
There is a need and I want my SMG NOW! 10 11.24%
Voters: 89. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 09-07-2012, 8:00 PM
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Default Would the United States Military be better off with a SMG???

From my experience deployed especially in Iraq, it struck a nerve seeing Iraqi Army with brand new MP5's while the United States has no SMG. I also trained a large amount of foreign armies and for the most part they all had SMG's. Do you guys think there is a need for SMG's in our nations Military for PDW and use by air crew and armor units and if not why?
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Last edited by laabstract; 09-08-2012 at 9:16 AM..
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Old 09-07-2012, 8:02 PM
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Why carry a big pistol with a 30rnd mag and stock when you can carry a 5.56mm carbine that's only slightly larger?
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Old 09-07-2012, 8:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laabstract View Post
From my experience deployed especially in Iraq, it struck a nerve seeing Iraqi Army with brand new MP5's while the United States has no SMG. I also trained a large amount of foreign armies and for the most part they all had SMG's. Do you guys think there is a need for SMG's in our nations Military and if not why?
The army does have SMG's. My last unit we had every MP5 you can think of, including the MP5K. Is there a need for them. Just like everything else depends on the job. You don't do a PSD mission with a MK19 but an MP5 is a glove that fits.
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Old 09-07-2012, 8:07 PM
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M4 29.75 in with collapsed stock
MP5 21.7 in with collapsed stock

8 inches is a pretty big difference.
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Old 09-07-2012, 8:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laabstract View Post
8 inches is a pretty big difference.
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Old 09-07-2012, 8:15 PM
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Yes it is.
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Old 09-07-2012, 8:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Cpl. Haas View Post
Why carry a big pistol with a 30rnd mag and stock when you can carry a 5.56mm carbine that's only slightly larger?


SMG? Really?
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Old 09-07-2012, 8:21 PM
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I don't think I understand the question.

Do you mean that line units should be issued SMGs? Like during WWII? Replacing the battle rifle?

Because we do have SMGs in the inventory, but they're issued to units that need them/use them.

I think we should definitively have a good PDW, something small that can accept the currently issued 5.56 mags, for aircrew, transport, etc.

Something like this:

h**p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magpul_PDR
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Old 09-07-2012, 8:34 PM
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The MP5 is nice, but I preferred the M4. Sure it sucked to hump an M4 when something lighter was around, but I preferred to carry a rifle that could fit the widest variety of roles. From a logistical standpoint, the M4 makes sense. Need a PDW, change the upper. What about a DMR, change the upper.
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Old 09-07-2012, 8:36 PM
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^^^ win. Sadly they frown on modding weapons in line units. I know an upper swap is not a mod, until you do it LOL.
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Old 09-07-2012, 8:38 PM
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Originally Posted by JerryM View Post
I don't think I understand the question.

Do you mean that line units should be issued SMGs? Like during WWII? Replacing the battle rifle?

Because we do have SMGs in the inventory, but they're issued to units that need them/use them.

I think we should definitively have a good PDW, something small that can accept the currently issued 5.56 mags, for aircrew, transport, etc.

Something like this:

h**p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magpul_PDR
That PDR is pretty dang nice. I agree, the M4 doesn't quite cut it for aircrews, but it was better than the M16. Heck, I even saw the occasional Grease Gun issued for tank or aircraft crews.
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Old 09-07-2012, 8:45 PM
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^^^ win. Sadly they frown on modding weapons in line units. I know an upper swap is not a mod, until you do it LOL.
Yhea, I got caught some flack for that one. I converted my issue M16 to an M4A1. The commander asked what I was carrying. I told him it was an M16A2, at least that what was stamped on the receiver. He told me that if it wasn't on the MTOE, we couldn't have it. Oh well. Oddly enough, he never had a problem with me dragging one of my float M240Bs out the field.
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Old 09-08-2012, 9:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryM View Post
I don't think I understand the question.

I think we should definitively have a good PDW, something small that can accept the currently issued 5.56 mags, for aircrew, transport, etc.

Something like this:

h**p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magpul_PDR

whats what I am talking about, something small for PDW and use by air crew and armor units.
The PDR seems like it would be a nice compromise.
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Old 09-08-2012, 9:27 AM
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I've always felt the FN P90 would make a good PDW for armor and aircrew... it takes up a minimal amount of space and holds a decent amount of rounds. Recoil is also very low, so it wouldn't require a lot of effort qualifying on it.
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Old 09-08-2012, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laabstract View Post
From my experience deployed especially in Iraq, it struck a nerve seeing Iraqi Army with brand new MP5's while the United States has no SMG. I also trained a large amount of foreign armies and for the most part they all had SMG's. Do you guys think there is a need for SMG's in our nations Military for PDW and use by air crew and armor units and if not why?
In my estimation, there's no need. Part of the reason the M4 platform is so good is because its an easy weapon to learn on. The first time I shot a gun was at Air Force qualifying at Lackland AFB, and my first group ever was a 1/4".

If the main battle rifle of the US was chambered in 30-06 or .308 Winchester there'd be a point for a smaller arm, but the M4 works just fine for a majority of our needs. In my finance squadron, the ladies preferred shooting the M4 to the M9 pistol when qualifying time came due.

As far as comparing foreign armies goes, I hold the idea that doing so can generate false impressions. Our military is as effective as it is because of knowledge and training-neither of which is particularly cheap to acquire and practice. The training we use for our troops given the platforms we have would probably bankrupt a smaller country, and as such comparisons between what we use vs what Army X uses are flawed. A PDW for a poorer country dedicated to defending itself from attack makes more sense for their needs than it would for our own necessarily.
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Old 09-08-2012, 12:11 PM
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SBR > SMG
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Old 09-08-2012, 8:46 PM
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In my estimation, there's no need. Part of the reason the M4 platform is so good is because its an easy weapon to learn on. The first time I shot a gun was at Air Force qualifying at Lackland AFB, and my first group ever was a 1/4".

If the main battle rifle of the US was chambered in 30-06 or .308 Winchester there'd be a point for a smaller arm, but the M4 works just fine for a majority of our needs. In my finance squadron, the ladies preferred shooting the M4 to the M9 pistol when qualifying time came due.

As far as comparing foreign armies goes, I hold the idea that doing so can generate false impressions. Our military is as effective as it is because of knowledge and training-neither of which is particularly cheap to acquire and practice. The training we use for our troops given the platforms we have would probably bankrupt a smaller country, and as such comparisons between what we use vs what Army X uses are flawed. A PDW for a poorer country dedicated to defending itself from attack makes more sense for their needs than it would for our own necessarily.
I dont agree, you stated that it works well for a "Majority of our needs" but it does not meet all needs. I think we could benefit greatly from a SMG for people in up armored vehicles and aircraft personnel. I do not agree with replacing our M4 but supplement the above units with SMG's for example Vehicle load out, Driver SMG all other vehicle members M4. Medic would get a SMG for PDW purposes, so on and so on.

I think the need is real and would aide our Army in being more stream lined. I also believe we can learn alot from other "smaller" Military's. One that comes to mind is the German Army with the smaller lighter G36C, yet they still field SMG's the HK MP7A1 to be exact.
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Old 09-08-2012, 8:59 PM
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Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
In my estimation, there's no need. Part of the reason the M4 platform is so good is because its an easy weapon to learn on. The first time I shot a gun was at Air Force qualifying at Lackland AFB, and my first group ever was a 1/4".

If the main battle rifle of the US was chambered in 30-06 or .308 Winchester there'd be a point for a smaller arm, but the M4 works just fine for a majority of our needs. In my finance squadron, the ladies preferred shooting the M4 to the M9 pistol when qualifying time came due.

As far as comparing foreign armies goes, I hold the idea that doing so can generate false impressions. Our military is as effective as it is because of knowledge and training-neither of which is particularly cheap to acquire and practice. The training we use for our troops given the platforms we have would probably bankrupt a smaller country, and as such comparisons between what we use vs what Army X uses are flawed. A PDW for a poorer country dedicated to defending itself from attack makes more sense for their needs than it would for our own necessarily.

There is no way in my mos we could complete some of our missions without our mp5's. M4 would not work for the type of situations we used mp5's for. So certain mos need smg bottom line.
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Old 09-08-2012, 9:06 PM
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Russian 9a-91 comes to mind. Why is Russia making some of the best guns right now?
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Old 09-08-2012, 10:34 PM
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There is no way in my mos we could complete some of our missions without our mp5's. M4 would not work for the type of situations we used mp5's for. So certain mos need smg bottom line.
I'm curious, what MOS?

I generally think that if we need something smaller than an M4, it should just be something like the Colt Commando/MK18 or whatever they're calling it now. An M4 but with a 10.5 inch barrel would seem ideal from a logistical standpoint. I don't see the point in using a pistol round when you can have a weapon almost the same size firing 5.56.
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Old 09-09-2012, 12:06 AM
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I'm curious, what MOS?

I generally think that if we need something smaller than an M4, it should just be something like the Colt Commando/MK18 or whatever they're calling it now. An M4 but with a 10.5 inch barrel would seem ideal from a logistical standpoint. I don't see the point in using a pistol round when you can have a weapon almost the same size firing 5.56.
I was a 31b but now a 35m.......31b need them for psd missions and certain srt missions....yes srt has specific actual missions one very important one in Korea that obviously I won't get into detail due to opsec. But the mp5 is crucial to the success to certain missions..just like a lot of MPs on special assignments have sigs instead of m9 for length reasons......got to consider the round and the ballistics..peoplthee don't want to believe it but the 5.56 its really a devastating round.not needed in certain missions
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Old 09-09-2012, 9:09 AM
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Theoney of the units I was in used to have mp5's for cqb but the entire unit got rid of them because the maintenance issues and if their was problems they had to send them back to h&k to get fixed. Which was to costly and kept the weapon out of service for awhile. So they went with the m4 because it was easier to fix and maintain.
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Old 09-09-2012, 11:34 AM
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Theoney of the units I was in used to have mp5's for cqb but the entire unit got rid of them because the maintenance issues and if their was problems they had to send them back to h&k to get fixed. Which was to costly and kept the weapon out of service for awhile. So they went with the m4 because it was easier to fix and maintain.
Yup we had the same problem mp5's require special attention and a spring would always break in them. hk armor school is extremely expensive, but we had to keep them so a local gunsmith would have to repair them and charged a crap load...only certified armors can work on mp5's
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Old 09-09-2012, 11:42 AM
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Vast majority don't need them, but want them because they think it may be cool. I'd rather carry a slightly larger but more effective 5.56 vs a 9mm or .45acp with the same amount of ammo. No real recoil differences and it would certainly benefit special ops teams, but they already have them.
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Old 09-09-2012, 1:31 PM
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mk18- (10.5" upper for the m4) dont you think that would be better than a 9mm sub gun thats round will defeated by soft armor at any range? i feel like sub guns are worthless now a days. there a reason you see the iraqis with them, they get the old junk.

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Old 09-09-2012, 2:52 PM
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Originally Posted by 451040 View Post
SBR > SMG
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Originally Posted by hnoppenberger View Post
mk18- (10.5" upper for the m4) dont you think that would be better than a 9mm sub gun thats round will defeated by soft armor at any range? i feel like sub guns are worthless now a days. there a reason you see the iraqis with them, they get the old junk.
^^ This
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Old 09-09-2012, 4:49 PM
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Vast majority don't need them, but want them because they think it may be cool. I'd rather carry a slightly larger but more effective 5.56 vs a 9mm or .45acp with the same amount of ammo. No real recoil differences and it would certainly benefit special ops teams, but they already have them.
I dont think any commander would pitch the idea of buying MP5's for a unit because they are "cool." MP5s are a logistical nightmare for units to have because they are expensive, they have to have specialized armors work on them, the replacement parts are expensive, and finally the army doesn't have an actual qualification table for the MP5. Like every weapon in the army you have to qualify and document it for each user. So Commanders would have to have a SOP and grading standard for MP5 qual. So with that being said no unit in the military would have a weapon because its "cool" thats a no-go. 5.56 in some instances causes to much collateral damage thats why units use SMG's. I love m4's but realistically you can't use them for everything, especially when you have a specific mission.
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Old 09-09-2012, 6:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt1984 View Post
I dont think any commander would pitch the idea of buying MP5's for a unit because they are "cool." MP5s are a logistical nightmare for units to have because they are expensive, they have to have specialized armors work on them, the replacement parts are expensive, and finally the army doesn't have an actual qualification table for the MP5. Like every weapon in the army you have to qualify and document it for each user. So Commanders would have to have a SOP and grading standard for MP5 qual. So with that being said no unit in the military would have a weapon because its "cool" thats a no-go. 5.56 in some instances causes to much collateral damage thats why units use SMG's. I love m4's but realistically you can't use them for everything, especially when you have a specific mission.
For what its worth, my response is based on the idea of SMG's as a general issue military arm. For most regular duties in the D.o.D an SMG doesn't make sense, especially when a short barreled AR does the same job at less maintenance and acquisition cost. For specialized details, their Chain of Command should have the ability to acquire the necessary equipment to get the job done if the M4 is unsuitable.

Otherwise, there's no need. The M4 is one of the easiest carbines to tote around.Ever handled an M1 garand?
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Old 09-09-2012, 6:26 PM
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I was a 31b but now a 35m.......31b need them for psd missions and certain srt missions....yes srt has specific actual missions one very important one in Korea that obviously I won't get into detail due to opsec. But the mp5 is crucial to the success to certain missions..just like a lot of MPs on special assignments have sigs instead of m9 for length reasons......got to consider the round and the ballistics..peoplthee don't want to believe it but the 5.56 its really a devastating round.not needed in certain missions
I'm curious how a weaker weapon is crucial to mission success. The US has SMGs or PDWs in service, specifically the KRISS Super V. Army SF units also have a wide variety of them but there isn't a real need. Pistol rounds suck. By the way, so does the 5.56. For argument sake let's say the 5.56 is "devastating". How is it not needed on certain missions? With that mentality my platoon and I will not carry weapons out on a dismounted patrol because we don't think we'll get shot at that day.
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Old 09-09-2012, 6:32 PM
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As much as I love mp5s... I thought the hot new pdw/smg was the mp7 with a body armor piercing round. From what I understand smg's rule cqb... But lack compared to a m4 at longer range.
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Old 09-09-2012, 6:35 PM
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Default 416pdw

I can neither confirm or deny that some of our military uses hk416pdws with heavy grain frangible rounds for close in work.
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Old 09-09-2012, 6:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Scuba Steve33 View Post
I'm curious how a weaker weapon is crucial to mission success. The US has SMGs or PDWs in service, specifically the KRISS Super V. Army SF units also have a wide variety of them but there isn't a real need. Pistol rounds suck. By the way, so does the 5.56. For argument sake let's say the 5.56 is "devastating". How is it not needed on certain missions? With that mentality my platoon and I will not carry weapons out on a dismounted patrol because we don't think we'll get shot at that day.

When conducting PSD missions what would the benefit be securing with a M4 at a political rally stateside in plain view? say you have to use that weapon to neutralize a threat? Would i want to open fire in area where i know that 5.56 round is going to go through my target and hit the person to the side or back of him/her or who knows were due to the tumble action of that round. MP5's can be somewhat concealed...to a small extent with a coat especially our k model...but if you have to act on a threat your 9mm isnt going to go through that person and hit the next person hopefully. Same with our srt teams. they dont need a 5.56 round going through the wall at a house they are clearing on post. That is why certain MOS's need certain weapons, not all MOS's need smg's especially 9mm SMG's....MP's yes that is a mos that does and ballistics are everything in our missions.....besides being everyones favorite blue falcon...hahah

Remember not all our missions are down range.....would I want to do a dismount patrol with a MP5......F-NO! but we have a big state side mission too and would I want that 9mm SMG in my arms room, hell yea.
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  #33  
Old 09-10-2012, 5:37 PM
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I think people are missing the Point, no one is saying doing dismounted patrols with MP5's or any other SMG. What is being suggested is using the SMG in a specific role for Pilots, MRAP drivers and so on. People who's job is in a support role of actual combat troops who would be carrying a M4 or M16. The SMG would play more of a role as a PDW to protect the Driver if he has to dismount in case of IED strike or vehicle failure, yet still has the ability to put lead downrange while maintaining a small footprint inside the vehicle.

Think M3 Grease Gun in WW2
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Old 09-10-2012, 6:42 PM
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I think people are missing the Point, no one is saying doing dismounted patrols with MP5's or any other SMG. What is being suggested is using the SMG in a specific role for Pilots, MRAP drivers and so on. People who's job is in a support role of actual combat troops who would be carrying a M4 or M16. The SMG would play more of a role as a PDW to protect the Driver if he has to dismount in case of IED strike or vehicle failure, yet still has the ability to put lead downrange while maintaining a small footprint inside the vehicle.

Think M3 Grease Gun in WW2
If a Pilot gets shot down, he or she has more important concerns than playing Call of Duty with their sidearm. A Beretta 92 or Sig M11 won't repel an armed company of OPFOR shopping for a juicy American POW , and neither will an HK MP7 or FN P90. All strapping on an SMG will do for an aviator is hobble them with more bulky gear, which inhibits the one thing such a person would have to do after bailing out;namely running and evading capture.

In the event of an IED strike or vehicle failure, odds are the explosive attack is connected to an ambush.Given that calculus id deal with toting an M4 if I had to drive a truck. Repelling an ambush is bad enough without handicapping yourself with pistol caliber carbines or a high speed .22-and if you're going the latter route, may's well rock an M4.

Not that this situation is relevant to a wartime environment, but there was an instance stateside where I had to clear and stow my AR15 inside my midsize sedan last year.For background as to why, at the time I was living on a college campus which mandated student-owned guns had to be kept in the car.

Well my smarty self bought my first AR15, and decided to hit the range with it before my next class. Still excited about the weapon I chucked it in the backseat afterwards-legal in my state, BTW-and went back to the college.

Uh oh.I had quite the dilemma when I parked the car at my dorm building.


Leaving the rifle in plain sight in the backseat ain't smart, but if I take it out of the car to put it in the trunk im liable to be arrested ;the last VT shooting last year had just happened the week before, and toting an AR15 on campus property in plain sight sounded like an invitation to police custody,even if it was from the rear door to the trunk of my car.

So, I cleared and safed the AR15 from the drivers seat,barrel pointing at the floor, undid the trunk latch for the rear seat pass through, and slid the rifle into the trunk from inside the car with no one around the wiser. Even with the 16" barrel the AR15 didn't strike me as being that awkward to maneuver -and I drive a midsize GM sedan, not a Cadillac or Lincoln. A 14.5" M4 would be even easier.

That said I realize jets and BFV's are cramped quarters, but an M4 is not that hard to tote around.
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Old 09-10-2012, 9:13 PM
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Not that this situation is relevant to a wartime environment, but there was an instance stateside where I had to clear and stow my AR15 inside my midsize sedan last year.

Try filling your midsize sedan with 4 dudes with body armor MICHS 210+ plus rounds of 5.56 40mm Grenades Frag grenades Smoke Grenades each with a M4 and then see how easy it will be to move around.
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Old 09-10-2012, 9:33 PM
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SBR > SMG
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Old 09-10-2012, 10:26 PM
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Try filling your midsize sedan with 4 dudes with body armor MICHS 210+ plus rounds of 5.56 40mm Grenades Frag grenades Smoke Grenades each with a M4 and then see how easy it will be to move around.
Check........done that 5 dudes in a heliux IP truck......so yea done that...movement? what movement?
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Old 09-10-2012, 10:26 PM
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Try filling your midsize sedan with 4 dudes with body armor MICHS 210+ plus rounds of 5.56 40mm Grenades Frag grenades Smoke Grenades each with a M4 and then see how easy it will be to move around.
How an HK MP5 supposed to improve on that situation, exactly?

If you're being shot at inside a vehicle, then hit the gas and get outta the situation. If you cant escape , then staying inside the vehicle serves no purpose and one should exit. In the event of disembarking the vehicle into a fight id rather have a rifle which is a bit** to move in a vehicle, than being stuck with trying to shoot my way out of an L shaped ambush with an SMG.
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Old 09-10-2012, 10:31 PM
Scuba Steve33 Scuba Steve33 is offline
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Originally Posted by Matt1984 View Post
When conducting PSD missions what would the benefit be securing with a M4 at a political rally stateside in plain view? say you have to use that weapon to neutralize a threat? Would i want to open fire in area where i know that 5.56 round is going to go through my target and hit the person to the side or back of him/her or who knows were due to the tumble action of that round. MP5's can be somewhat concealed...to a small extent with a coat especially our k model...but if you have to act on a threat your 9mm isnt going to go through that person and hit the next person hopefully. Same with our srt teams. they dont need a 5.56 round going through the wall at a house they are clearing on post. That is why certain MOS's need certain weapons, not all MOS's need smg's especially 9mm SMG's....MP's yes that is a mos that does and ballistics are everything in our missions.....besides being everyones favorite blue falcon...hahah

Remember not all our missions are down range.....would I want to do a dismount patrol with a MP5......F-NO! but we have a big state side mission too and would I want that 9mm SMG in my arms room, hell yea.
Your reasoning does not out weigh the fact that it is still a much larger pistol, almost to the size of an M4. They aren't practical with SBRs of today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by laabstract View Post
Try filling your midsize sedan with 4 dudes with body armor MICHS 210+ plus rounds of 5.56 40mm Grenades Frag grenades Smoke Grenades each with a M4 and then see how easy it will be to move around.
What difference does it make when you are comparing an M4 and something slightly smaller? Not sure if you were arguing FOR an SMG but they aren't much smaller than an M4.

If you have men equipped with a weapon that takes different types of ammunition you now run into the very dangerous problem of someone running out of ammo and the guy next to him not being able to share the wealth. It's not necessary to equip multiple main weapons that use different types of ammunition.
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Old 09-10-2012, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Scuba Steve33 View Post
Your reasoning does not out weigh the fact that it is still a much larger pistol, almost to the size of an M4. They aren't practical with SBRs of today.



What difference does it make when you are comparing an M4 and something slightly smaller? Not sure if you were arguing FOR an SMG but they aren't much smaller than an M4.

If you have men equipped with a weapon that takes different types of ammunition you now run into the very dangerous problem of someone running out of ammo and the guy next to him not being able to share the wealth. It's not necessary to equip multiple main weapons that use different types of ammunition.
Ok your losing the point. we are talking about SMG, and for that reason SMG's are needed in certain MOS's like the examples given. Especially the need for a 9mm in that instance....not talking down range or size. Talking about SMG's
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