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  #1  
Old 09-06-2012, 1:27 PM
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Default Illegal California holster?

Found this item for a pocket holster for a Colt Mustang. The website says it's illegal here. Can someone tell me why?

http://www.desantisholster.com/store...ony-Pocketlite
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  #2  
Old 09-06-2012, 1:33 PM
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Because it's not on the safe holster roster




i kid i kid

I don't see why it would be illegal to own here. Some sites just say everything is illegal in CA.
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  #3  
Old 09-06-2012, 1:38 PM
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There is a link on the Holsters page to an ATF letter..


http://www.desantisholster.com/store...tyle%20110.pdf

Still unsure. Im sure somebody knowledgable will come along.
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  #4  
Old 09-06-2012, 1:40 PM
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12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, [...]

(4) As used in this section, a "wallet gun" means any firearm mounted or enclosed in a case, resembling a wallet, designed to be or capable of being carried in a pocket or purse, if the firearm may be fired while mounted or enclosed in the case.
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  #5  
Old 09-06-2012, 1:42 PM
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hmm interesting
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  #6  
Old 09-06-2012, 1:47 PM
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http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=358484

Heres some further discussion on it.....
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Old 09-06-2012, 1:51 PM
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something new to me, I never knew there is a holster law in CA...
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  #8  
Old 09-06-2012, 1:52 PM
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Not an attorney, but looks like it violates CA penal code 12020(a)(1). It makes the pistol a "wallet gun" since pistol is capable of being fired while in the holster.
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  #9  
Old 09-06-2012, 2:04 PM
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The description of the holster says
Quote:
The #110 disguises itself as a wallet but can be brought into action instantly without removing the gun.
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  #10  
Old 09-06-2012, 2:05 PM
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Yeah that's stupid illegal. As soon as I saw the trigger port an you could pull the trigger in said holster. Yeah that's so hot I wouldn't touch that with a 50ft pole
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  #11  
Old 09-06-2012, 4:24 PM
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So if you take Remora holster and cut a hole around the trigger area, does that become a wallet holster? lol
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  #12  
Old 09-06-2012, 4:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugiahua View Post
something new to me, I never knew there is a holster law in CA...
What the law is going after is making sure when fired and gun looks like a gun.

The moment the "case" is designed to be fired while the gun is still inside the case it becomes illegal.

If the gun had to be drawn from the "wallet" before it could be fired it would be fine.
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  #13  
Old 09-06-2012, 4:40 PM
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Makes sense I suppose. No pocket versions of...

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  #14  
Old 09-06-2012, 4:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon04GT View Post
Makes sense I suppose. No pocket versions of...

ah yes, the ole' machine gun in the briefcase setup.
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  #15  
Old 09-06-2012, 4:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugiahua View Post
something new to me, I never knew there is a holster law in CA...
There isn't.
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  #16  
Old 09-06-2012, 5:04 PM
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If you conceal a handgun and don't have a CCW you violate the law.
If you have a wallet that hides your gun even after its pulled out of your pocket, it violates another law.

I don't think I've ever seen a prosecution for having a wallet holster. Ever. It would be interesting to see the Calif. DOJ stats on that particular statute. I'll bet there's less than 25 cases in any given year out of a state of 35 million people......
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  #17  
Old 09-06-2012, 5:59 PM
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Simplemans terms, it can be fired from the "container", not lawfull in CA! If the holster did not have the cut away at the trigger it would be GTG!
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  #18  
Old 09-06-2012, 6:13 PM
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I carried a High-Standard .22 Mag Derringer in a "wallet holster" as a LEO backup for years. Found out it was illegal sometime later...hadn't been when I started, like so many of our laws.
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  #19  
Old 09-06-2012, 6:19 PM
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That Desantis pocket holster with a pistol meets the definition of a "wallet gun" under CA laws. [PC 17330]
Importation/possession/manufacturing/transferring of a "wallet gun" is a felony. [PC 24710]

That briefcase MG (H&K MP5K Briefcase) meets the definition of a "camouflaging firearm container" under CA laws. [PC 16320]
Importation/possession/manufacturing/transferring of a "camouflaging firearm container" is a felony. [PC 24310]


Penal Code 17330
As used in this part, "wallet gun" means any firearm mounted or enclosed in a case, resembling a wallet, designed to be or capable of being carried in a pocket or purse, if the firearm may be fired while mounted or enclosed in the case.

Penal Code 24710
Except as provided in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any wallet gun is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.

Penal Code 16320
(a) As used in this part, "camouflaging firearm container" means a container that meets all of the following criteria:
(1) It is designed and intended to enclose a firearm.
(2) It is designed and intended to allow the firing of the enclosed firearm by external controls while the firearm is in the container.
(3) It is not readily recognizable as containing a firearm.
(b) "Camouflaging firearm container" does not include any camouflaging covering used while engaged in lawful hunting or while going to or returning from a lawful hunting expedition.

Penal Code 24310
Except as provided in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any camouflaging firearm container is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.
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  #20  
Old 09-06-2012, 7:12 PM
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register the pistol as an AOW and you can use a wallet holster. As a registered AOW, it is exempt from CA's wallet gun prohibition.
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  #21  
Old 09-06-2012, 7:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
register the pistol as an AOW and you can use a wallet holster. As a registered AOW, it is exempt from CA's wallet gun prohibition.
This is true.
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  #22  
Old 09-06-2012, 10:51 PM
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that briefcase gun was gnarly, made me laugh out loud
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  #23  
Old 09-06-2012, 11:27 PM
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That briefcase mp5 was one of the most shocking things I've seen recently. I can honestly say I did not expect that at all!
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  #24  
Old 09-07-2012, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
register the pistol as an AOW and you can use a wallet holster. As a registered AOW, it is exempt from CA's wallet gun prohibition.
I think I now have a plan for when I get my LTC.
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  #25  
Old 09-07-2012, 1:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugiahua View Post
something new to me, I never knew there is a holster law in CA...
Interestingly enough; since 2002 in the City of Los Angeles, holsters for "Ultra Compact Handguns" are banned for sale in city limits, because "Ultra-Compact Handguns" under either 6 3/4" long or 4 3/4" tall) are also banned for sale in the City of LA, even if they are approved on the DOJ/BOF safety roster. City ordinance.

And that doesn't mean "wallet holsters". These could be a plain-style holsters for something such as a Walther PPK, Kel-Tec P32, LWS Seecamp, or even a Glock 26.

But these are not illegal to OWN!! Just illegal to sell. It's crazy.

Turners Reseda and Alfonso's of Hollywood Leather Company both got raided by LA's "Gun Unit" nearly 10 years ago for this very reason.

You can thank Mike Feuer for that, who pushed this through when he was a City of LA councilman (at about the same time he pushed through LA's ban on the sale of rifles chambered in .50BMG - where Koretz was simultaneously trying to get his bill(s) to ban .50BMG rifles through Sacramento.
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What compelling interest has any level of government in knowing what guns are owned by civilians? (Those owned by government should be inventoried and tracked, for exactly the same reasons computers and desks and chairs are tracked: responsible care of public property.)

If some level of government had that information, what would they do with it? How would having that info benefit public safety? How would it benefit law enforcement?
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  #26  
Old 09-07-2012, 1:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon04GT View Post
Because it's not on the safe holster roster




i kid i kid

I don't see why it would be illegal to own here. Some sites just say everything is illegal in CA.
+1 especially cheaperthandirt.
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  #27  
Old 09-07-2012, 8:38 AM
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All the penal codes cited, NONE restrict the actual holster, only the firearm DESIGNED OR ABLE to be fired FROM the holster/wallet/briefcase/container.

So, no. The HOLSTER is NOT illegal, and the seller is simply relying on his own ignorance and fear of California.
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  #28  
Old 09-07-2012, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Army View Post
All the penal codes cited, NONE restrict the actual holster, only the firearm DESIGNED OR ABLE to be fired FROM the holster/wallet/briefcase/container.

So, no. The HOLSTER is NOT illegal, and the seller is simply relying on his own ignorance and fear of California.
Except such holsters for "Ultra-Compact Handguns" can not be offered for sale within the city of Los Angeles as I explained above, so some mail order companies (if they know of it - take Sportsmans Guide for example) won't ship such a holster to you, or any holsters for "Ultra-Compact Handguns" - if you are within LA City limits.

Sucks, but true. But then again, a place like Sportsmans Guide weighs down their ordering processes so heavily in observance of local ordinances, it's hard to get any thing out of them in the way of ammo and gun parts without one or another of their restrictions getting in the way of your order.
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What compelling interest has any level of government in knowing what guns are owned by civilians? (Those owned by government should be inventoried and tracked, for exactly the same reasons computers and desks and chairs are tracked: responsible care of public property.)

If some level of government had that information, what would they do with it? How would having that info benefit public safety? How would it benefit law enforcement?
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  #29  
Old 09-07-2012, 12:00 PM
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its not really a holster according to my internal definition of a holster

to the atf it complies with the law in that it is not completely covered the slide and trigger are clearly out in the open
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Old 09-07-2012, 3:15 PM
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City of LA rules do not a state penal code make

Still legal to take your legal holster into LA...just can't sell it.
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Old 09-07-2012, 3:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Army View Post
All the penal codes cited, NONE restrict the actual holster, only the firearm DESIGNED OR ABLE to be fired FROM the holster/wallet/briefcase/container.

So, no. The HOLSTER is NOT illegal, and the seller is simply relying on his own ignorance and fear of California.
Correct the holster by itself is not illegal.
It becomes illegal when a firearm is placed within it.

The H&K briefcase is illegal by itself, even without a firearm inside it.

Summary:
"wallet gun" = holster + firearm
"camouflaging firearm container" = container
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  #32  
Old 09-07-2012, 5:41 PM
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A friend of mine transports an old Winchester pump .22 in a an old breakdown fishing rod padded case with Daiwa on the outside. Is that illegal? Sorry if this is a potential hi jack...
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Old 09-07-2012, 6:09 PM
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That is not a holster, it's a way to hide your gun.
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Old 09-08-2012, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Army View Post
City of LA rules do not a state penal code make

Still legal to take your legal holster into LA...just can't sell it.
Correct - which I clarified in my prior post with:

"But these are not illegal to OWN!! Just illegal to sell. It's crazy. "

I was explaining why some sellers/distributors won't ship to buyers in LA City for that reason, which is odd, because that means they are defining the point of sale as LA. (i.e. Sportsmans Guide does this).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
What compelling interest has any level of government in knowing what guns are owned by civilians? (Those owned by government should be inventoried and tracked, for exactly the same reasons computers and desks and chairs are tracked: responsible care of public property.)

If some level of government had that information, what would they do with it? How would having that info benefit public safety? How would it benefit law enforcement?

Last edited by The Gleam; 09-08-2012 at 11:15 AM..
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Old 09-08-2012, 5:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile Machine View Post
12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, [...]

(4) As used in this section, a "wallet gun" means any firearm mounted or enclosed in a case, resembling a wallet, designed to be or capable of being carried in a pocket or purse, if the firearm may be fired while mounted or enclosed in the case.
most wallets dont have holes in the middle, that lokos like a gun to me not a wallet....
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  #36  
Old 09-08-2012, 6:16 PM
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Default Wallet Holster

The simple answer is: It's California. The more corrupt a society, the more complex its' laws. Corrupt politicians push complex laws.
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Old 09-08-2012, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c good View Post
A friend of mine transports an old Winchester pump .22 in a an old breakdown fishing rod padded case with Daiwa on the outside. Is that illegal? Sorry if this is a potential hi jack...
no it is not designed to be fired from within with exetrnal controls

it is just an unconventional guncase
heck i love guitar gig bags
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  #38  
Old 09-08-2012, 11:59 PM
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What if you hold the briefcase the wrong way and dump a full mag in your own gut?
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Old 09-09-2012, 12:30 AM
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The California law was written to mimic the Federal NFA law. That's stupid in itself, since it would already be illegal under Federal law - there's no need to have a state law against it also.

That DeSantis holster does not violate the spirit of NFA, which is why they got that ATF letter saying it was not an AOW. If the state is reasonable, a similar letter should be possible to get when the ATF letter is shown.

What if you made it out of a flexible plastic instead of leather, in exactly the same shape, but called it "grips" instead of a "holster" and had it attach in place of the grips with screws? Would California deem it a "wallet gun"?

Last edited by sigstroker; 09-09-2012 at 12:32 AM..
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Old 09-09-2012, 3:39 AM
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From 2009

LAPD's Crack Down On Legitimate City Gun Dealers
Nets Harmless Leathersmith

Law Enforcement Priorities Misplaced

In an outlandish enforcement action, Detectives from the LAPD Gun Unit, working with a new City Attorney Task Force, recently performed a plain clothes undercover "sting" on a leather smith Omar Pineda's family business: Alfonso's of Hollywood Leather Company. Pineda, in business in North Hollywood for 43 years, makes custom holsters and other leather goods. In fact, he has been servicing LAPD officers for many years. But he does not sell guns, nor possess a firearm dealer's license - which isn't necessary for his leather business. Pineda's "crime?" He unwittingly sold two leather holsters for .380 ACP handguns to the undercover officers, not realizing that the recently enacted Municipal Code section that bans the sale of "ultracompact" handguns (under either 6 3/4" long or 4 3/4" tall) also bans the sale of holsters for these guns.

And when was this dangerous leather smith "criminal" detected? On September 11th no less! As the country, under the heightened alert declared by the federal government, held its breath that we wouldn't suffer another terrorist attack the LAPD was spending federal dollars to arrest a holster maker!

The sting was part of a new misguided effort to crack down on gun dealers in the city. Using federal "Project Safe Neighborhoods" dollars, the L.A. city Attorney's Office has formed a gun prosecutor "task force," and, working with the LAPD "Gun Unit," is performing regulatory "inspectors" on the roughly 200 FFLS in the City of LA. Dealers fear the effort is a pretext to put them out of business.

The federal money, some $360,000.00 per year for five years, is supposed to be used to fund special prosecutor positions to crack down on violent gun crime. Instead, large and small retailers, ranges, collectors, and ammo sellers have been "inspected" and cited by LAPD, mostly for violating relatively new and obscure city ordinances - of which the dealers were never made aware! Even the anti-gun California Attorney General at least notifies FFLs to advise them as the increasingly complex firearms laws change, but not LA. Misdemeanor criminal charges are pending in several cases.
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