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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 09-01-2012, 5:26 PM
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Default Piston dilemma; LWRCi Vs. LMT Vs. Barrett? HELP

I'm having an EXTREMELY DIFFICULT time deciding between 3 or 4 piston AR's the contenders are:

LWRCi M6A2/ M6A2 SPR

LMT CQB MRP

Barrett REC7 (in 5.56)

Sig Sauer 516 (I've herd their Op-rods bend, I don't know if this is still an issue, or if it ever was?)

And possibly...

Colt LE6940P (I don't like how the BCG is not a solid one piece design)

I've narrowed it down to these piston AR's, I know that these are all the top tier AR manufactures with the quality, fit & finish in the AR market but, I want to make sure I purchase the right Piston Operated AR.

Things that are important to me are:

* Track Record.

* Carrier Tilt.

* Accuracy.

* Who's adopted i.e. Military Units, Gov. & LE Agencies?

* Torture tested, durability/ Proven in combat with Operators in the Middle East.

* Which one has experienced the most problems, been sent back to the manufacture the most.

And YOU'RE personal experiences (if YOU have one of the AR mentioned), What made YOU chose the piston AR you have and
why? What failures (if any) have YOU experienced, what are the Pros & Cons of YOU'RE AR (if any)?

I appreciate Any information to help me make up my mind and settle on either the LWRCi, LMT, Barrett, Colt or Sig. I have been a member of CG for a long time now & trust other members opinions, I just don't want to make a decision that I'll regret. + I am also getting the Tavor TAR-21 (which is piston operated as well as a bullpup)

Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 09-01-2012, 5:57 PM
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I've owned none of those, but I have Ruger SR556E piston AR that I've put about 2200 rounds down and has performed wonderfully. Gets maybe 2MOA accuracy with good ammo and cycles anything I feed it (though I dial the gas adjustment knob back one notch for hotter loads). I like mine a lot, but it does have some down sides like the non-removable proprietary handguard. You can customize it out with rail pieces and plastic heat rests, but thanks to that big gas block setup, thats it. However, it's quick and easy to pop the front piston out and clean, and the one-piece BCG stays relatively gunk-free. I've had mine for about a year and haven't been disappointed.

How it started life and how it looks now though are two very different looks... and a good deal of cash...



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Old 09-01-2012, 6:12 PM
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The LMT MRP has been the one I prefer because A.) reliable, smooth recoiling piston system B.) quick change barrel options. It's nice to be able to go from 5.56mm to .300BLK with a Seekonk torque wrench.

I always thought the Barrett option was kind of half-assed. They've been really connected with the military acquisitions and back in 2003-05, when there was lots of talk about 6.8SPC and piston systems, they decided "hey, we can do that!" hoping it would translate into a military contract. I applaud their enthusiasm, but the rifle itself is rather...meh.
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Old 09-01-2012, 6:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfusionpm View Post

Any reason why you didn't move the front sight all the way forward to give yourself a longer sight radius?
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  #5  
Old 09-01-2012, 6:33 PM
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I have a couple friends that bought the LWRC SPR, I was their consultant for the purchases and orientation and was impressed by the fit and finish of both rifles (I am not easily impressed). The machining is excelent and the gas systems appears robust. I also like the relief cuts on the bolt carrier so crud won't stop it. If I had one, I would spring for a better trigger, the stock one isn't bad but I think a lighter two stage is better for precision work.

I forgot to mention, we ran about 250 rounds through the 14.5" barreled version a few weeks ago and when I cleaned it, only the chamber and bore had powder fouling, the rest of it was pretty darn clean. So basically 250 rounds through the piston system created as much dirt in the back end as you would see in maybe 5 shots through a DI gun.

Last edited by kurac; 09-01-2012 at 6:37 PM..
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  #6  
Old 09-01-2012, 6:43 PM
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National Police Supply. Vista, CA is an authorized dealer for LWRC.

They custom order yours to your specs. furniture, color, barrel length, flash hider, Magpul stock w/ cheekriser and length of pull etc You are not limited to what is on website or catalog.

All straight from LWRC. CA compliant. Approx 3 weeks.

http://www.nationalpolicesupply.com/contact.php
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  #7  
Old 09-01-2012, 6:46 PM
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LWRC makes some really good rifles. I have an m6 spr and actually just sold my m6a2. Have never had any problems with either, there designed superbly well and the quality is second to none. If I was to pick up another AR it would be an LWRC. Also another good thing about them is there customer service, they are absolutely a pleasure to deal with. Now as far as the others you named I don't have any trigger time with them. But I would imagine the Barrett and LMT are great as well. Have heard good things about about both of them.
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Old 09-01-2012, 7:55 PM
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Originally Posted by orangeglo View Post
Any reason why you didn't move the front sight all the way forward to give yourself a longer sight radius?
That front section is part of the gas block. I could put a sight there, but these are plastic Magpuls, and I don't want to melt them. Metal ones would be fine up there.
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Old 09-01-2012, 8:25 PM
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For the criteria you listed, the hk mr556 is your best bet.

It's not on your list but I would give it some thought. Thought to have been rifle used to take out obl by the seals. Well it was actually the 416, but the mr556 is pretty close at half the price for an upper. Can't really get the 416 lower here anyways.

Sold my scar to get one. Funny, no one wants to check out my rifle at the range anymore.... Looks pretty close to all the others now.
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  #10  
Old 09-01-2012, 8:35 PM
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LWRC and done. The newM6A5 is badarse
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  #11  
Old 09-01-2012, 8:54 PM
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LWRC period! Accurate and reliable as hell. It is little heavy though but not a deal breaker by any means...
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Old 09-01-2012, 8:55 PM
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I do not have enough experience with any of those fine choices to point in one direction but would think the hk should be in the list ( even though I am not a huge HK fan ).
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Old 09-01-2012, 9:28 PM
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Let's see....

Hk416 seals
Hk m27 us marines

Mr556 has similar heavy barrel profile to m27. Swap up to a 11" rail and you are good to go. Also, ta11 acog.

Only downsides, In my hands scar and di ar rifles are much more accurate. Not a big fan of the drum sites. Scar sites were very accurate.

Was right behind g36/xm8 in military test in sandy environment. None of the ops original rifles tested at the time.
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Old 09-01-2012, 11:19 PM
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HK MR556 should be on your list, as others have stated. It fits all your criteria.

I own one and love it. Reliable and plenty accurate. I run an ACOG TA-33 with a piggy back mounted mini red dot.

My only complaint is it is front heavy, compared to my Colt. But that is my only complaint about the MR.
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  #15  
Old 09-02-2012, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfusionpm View Post
I've owned none of those, but I have Ruger SR556E piston AR that I've put about 2200 rounds down and has performed wonderfully. Gets maybe 2MOA accuracy with good ammo and cycles anything I feed it (though I dial the gas adjustment knob back one notch for hotter loads). I like mine a lot, but it does have some down sides like the non-removable proprietary handguard. You can customize it out with rail pieces and plastic heat rests, but thanks to that big gas block setup, thats it. However, it's quick and easy to pop the front piston out and clean, and the one-piece BCG stays relatively gunk-free. I've had mine for about a year and haven't been disappointed.

How it started life and how it looks now though are two very different looks... and a good deal of cash...

The LWRCi, LMT, Colt & SIG all have proprietary or monolithic quad-rails, so that really is not an issue for me, I like the rails they have, although I do like how the Barrett REC7 has had a number of different quad rails as Barrett upgrades parts & feature on the REC7, I think it started out with an A.R.M.S rail, & now they come with a Daniel Defense rail, which is slimmer, but at SHOT Show 2012 Ronnie said the REC7 was getting a NEW even thinner rail system.

I am aware of the Ruger SR556, but I don't feel comfortable spending over $1K on Rugers 1st AR15/ first AR piston system all in one package. I know 2 friends who bought the Ruger SR556 & the piston is not accessible at all for cleaning/ maintenance (the owners manual says it never needs to be cleaned) also both have extrema cases of carrier tilt, one so much that it has worn threw the threads & snapped the plunger that holds the buffer & spring in place (or it did)...
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  #16  
Old 09-02-2012, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brando View Post
The LMT MRP has been the one I prefer because A.) reliable, smooth recoiling piston system B.) quick change barrel options. It's nice to be able to go from 5.56mm to .300BLK with a Seekonk torque wrench.

I always thought the Barrett option was kind of half-assed. They've been really connected with the military acquisitions and back in 2003-05, when there was lots of talk about 6.8SPC and piston systems, they decided "hey, we can do that!" hoping it would translate into a military contract. I applaud their enthusiasm, but the rifle itself is rather...meh.
I have read on AR15 & M4C that the LMT is the softest shooting piston AR anyone has used, I like it but I would like LMT to use a dedicated piston bolt, not just a Mil-Spec bolt with the gas rings removed, I would also like to see the LM8 MRP avaible as a piston operated system, I called LMT & their answer was to but LMT's $693 piston conversion kit, I don't see why LMT can't just make a LM8 with a CQB MRP barrel & use the piston BCG?

The Barrett to me is a bit on the heavy side, I too though that they only made the M468 for Military Contract replacement of the M4, then they didn't do anything with it for a while, since it's been the REC7 & SHOT Show 2012 they have really gotten competitive with their piston AR upgrading the bulky & heavy A.R.M.S quad rail, with a Daniel Defense rail & Ronnie is always looking for the latest lightest rail system, I believe that Barrett actually cares about the REC7 now.
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  #17  
Old 09-02-2012, 1:11 AM
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Originally Posted by SOCAL-PRINCE View Post
LWRC period! Accurate and reliable as hell. It is little heavy though but not a deal breaker by any means...
The M6A2 is only 7.3 lbs (as is the LMT) & the SPR is much less than that & has a grate sing weight it's very light in the front thanks to the fluted barrel & R.E.P.R style rail, I don't think LWRC's are heavy at all, the lightest piston AR is the Colt LE6040P at 6.9 lbs.
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  #18  
Old 09-02-2012, 2:29 AM
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Originally Posted by HKDoc View Post
For the criteria you listed, the hk mr556 is your best bet.

It's not on your list but I would give it some thought. Thought to have been rifle used to take out obl by the seals. Well it was actually the 416, but the mr556 is pretty close at half the price for an upper. Can't really get the 416 lower here anyways.

Sold my scar to get one. Funny, no one wants to check out my rifle at the range anymore.... Looks pretty close to all the others now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegrayham View Post
I do not have enough experience with any of those fine choices to point in one direction but would think the hk should be in the list ( even though I am not a huge HK fan ).
Quote:
Originally Posted by HKDoc View Post
Let's see....

Hk416 seals
Hk m27 us marines

Mr556 has similar heavy barrel profile to m27. Swap up to a 11" rail and you are good to go. Also, ta11 acog.

Only downsides, In my hands scar and di ar rifles are much more accurate. Not a big fan of the drum sites. Scar sites were very accurate.

Was right behind g36/xm8 in military test in sandy environment. None of the ops original rifles tested at the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by weespeed View Post
HK MR556 should be on your list, as others have stated. It fits all your criteria.

I own one and love it. Reliable and plenty accurate. I run an ACOG TA-33 with a piggy back mounted mini red dot.

My only complaint is it is front heavy, compared to my Colt. But that is my only complaint about the MR.
Thanks for mentioning the H&K MR556A1/ 416, for me there are a few things about the H&K MR556 that I dislike i.e.

* Price

* Weight, (Weighing in a almost 9 lbs empty) & has a heavy quad rail with a slower swing weight, compared to lighter piston AR's.

* Barrel finish is more for accuracy, than longevity

* Receiver & rail are taller

* Can't remove upper receiver from lower without a small tool.

It's a reliable piston AR, looks grate, I just wish it were lighter & had the same barrel as the H&K 416.
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Old 09-02-2012, 3:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hungarian_Legionnaire View Post
Thanks for mentioning the H&K MR556A1/ 416, for me there are a few things about the H&K MR556 that I dislike i.e.

* Price

* Weight, (Weighing in a almost 9 lbs empty) & has a heavy quad rail with a slower swing weight, compared to lighter piston AR's.

* Barrel finish is more for accuracy, than longevity

* Receiver & rail are taller

* Can't remove upper receiver from lower without a small tool.

It's a reliable piston AR, looks grate, I just wish it were lighter & had the same barrel as the H&K 416.
Very good points. The price of the HK has gone up since its introduction. close to $3000 if you can find one. yes it is front heavy, but I've always liked heavier barrels. It is definitely not chrome lined; there is an interesting discussion on hkpro about whether or not it received a nitrogen treatment. The detente pins take some getting used to. definitely no play between the upper and lower.

Overall, I've been wanting one for a long time and if you didn't guess having the HK mark of quality on the rifle makes me happy.

Since weight is an important concern to you, then perhaps add the scar to your list. It's not quite an AR but very light, accurate, and durable. A vendor here was selling them for $2300. Pretty close to the LWRC.

good luck on your search. Most importantly, you should try the different rifles out at the range to see what you like.
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Old 09-02-2012, 3:07 AM
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I'm happy with my M6A2. It's a little silly the top rail section that holds the front sight removes for cleaning, but I guess it's fine for BUIS. It's a little heavy but not bad for a piston upper. I think it's the first firearm (well, upper) I've owned that didn't have some kind of problem/disappointment, no matter how minor. So far zero wear from carrier tilt.

If I had to do it again I'd consider the LMT (top rail doesn't come off, but I heard it doesn't work well with Wolf if that matters to you) or HK (good experiences with HK in the past, but it's more expensive and heavier).
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Old 09-02-2012, 5:01 AM
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LWRC is what MARSOC (Marine Special Operations Command) uses and they are madly in love with their rifles. I had the chance to "play" with one a few months ago and after shooting a mag through it, I almost bought one the same day...they're that good.
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Old 09-02-2012, 8:02 AM
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I'm happy with my M6A2. It's a little silly the top rail section that holds the front sight removes for cleaning, but I guess it's fine for BUIS. It's a little heavy but not bad for a piston upper. I think it's the first firearm (well, upper) I've owned that didn't have some kind of problem/disappointment, no matter how minor. So far zero wear from carrier tilt.

If I had to do it again I'd consider the LMT (top rail doesn't come off, but I heard it doesn't work well with Wolf if that matters to you) or HK (good experiences with HK in the past, but it's more expensive and heavier).
If given the chance with what you know now about the LWRCi M6A2, would you would get the LMT CQB MRP instead? Both the M6A2 & CQB MRP weigh 7.3 lbs, although I the M6A2's rail is heavier, so the LMT is better balanced (when I haven handled both, one after another). I also like the monolithic upper of the LMT, LWRCi claims that when servicing/ cleaning the op-rod the rail section will return to zero, do you find this to be a fact? I wish LMT coated it's bolt carrier, bolt & fire control group in LWRCi (NiB) or EXO's patented nickel-boron surface conversion, but now that LWRCi supplier will do this process it really isn't an issue if you don't get an LWRC rifle to have the advantage of (NiB).
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Old 09-02-2012, 8:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Hungarian_Legionnaire View Post
If given the chance with what you know now about the LWRCi M6A2, would you would get the LMT CQB MRP instead? Both the M6A2 & CQB MRP weigh 7.3 lbs, although I the M6A2's rail is heavier, so the LMT is better balanced (when I haven handled both, one after another). I also like the monolithic upper of the LMT, LWRCi claims that when servicing/ cleaning the op-rod the rail section will return to zero, do you find this to be a fact?
There is a series of pins that align the top rail and it fits pretty tight. I wouldn't consider the iron sights on the SPR precision so I don't think its going to have much effect on your zero if you remove the top section of the rail to access the piston system. My only concern with the removable top section is that if something heavy were to be mounted to it, there is the chance it could work loose.
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Old 09-02-2012, 9:15 AM
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FYI.
A modified version of the Colt 6940P is a contendor in the US Army's Individual Carbine Competition (currently in Phase 2 testing).
There's three gas-piston AR type carbines currently in the competition.
Adcor Defense BEAR Elite, Colt Advanced Piston Carbine and H&K HK-416.
The other carbines currently in the competition also use a gas-piston but they are not AR type carbines.
Beretta ARX-160A2, FN FNAC and Remington ACR.
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Old 09-02-2012, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by jcslone View Post
LWRC is what MARSOC (Marine Special Operations Command) uses and they are madly in love with their rifles. I had the chance to "play" with one a few months ago and after shooting a mag through it, I almost bought one the same day...they're that good.
The USMC MARSOC uses LWRCi M6A2's? Like MEU(SOC)/ Force Recon? I have never herd of the Marines using anything other than M4A1's & M16A3 with an ACOG... I do know that the First M6A2's issued were with the 75th Rangers, I don't know how many but 75th Rangers were to take LWRC's M6A2 in to combat. Operational Detachment Dealt & DEA F.A.S.T Team both used the M6A2 in both Iraq & Afghanistan, undergoing some rigorous testing & outperforming the Legacy M4A1 & M16A3's in adverse conditions.
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Old 09-02-2012, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Hungarian_Legionnaire View Post
The LWRCi, LMT, Colt & SIG all have proprietary or monolithic quad-rails, so that really is not an issue for me, I like the rails they have, although I do like how the Barrett REC7 has had a number of different quad rails as Barrett upgrades parts & feature on the REC7, I think it started out with an A.R.M.S rail, & now they come with a Daniel Defense rail, which is slimmer, but at SHOT Show 2012 Ronnie said the REC7 was getting a NEW even thinner rail system.

I am aware of the Ruger SR556, but I don't feel comfortable spending over $1K on Rugers 1st AR15/ first AR piston system all in one package. I know 2 friends who bought the Ruger SR556 & the piston is not accessible at all for cleaning/ maintenance (the owners manual says it never needs to be cleaned) also both have extrema cases of carrier tilt, one so much that it has worn threw the threads & snapped the plunger that holds the buffer & spring in place (or it did)...
That's a fair point, and I would love to have an HK or LWRC. Then again, $1,099 sounded a lot better than $2,000-3,000. Mine is just a range toy.
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Old 09-02-2012, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hungarian_Legionnaire View Post
Thanks for mentioning the H&K MR556A1/ 416, for me there are a few things about the H&K MR556 that I dislike i.e.

* Price

* Weight, (Weighing in a almost 9 lbs empty) & has a heavy quad rail with a slower swing weight, compared to lighter piston AR's.

* Barrel finish is more for accuracy, than longevity

* Receiver & rail are taller

* Can't remove upper receiver from lower without a small tool.

It's a reliable piston AR, looks grate, I just wish it were lighter & had the same barrel as the H&K 416.
Price is definitely on the high side, now even more so with the price hike.

Weight can be reduced if you have some barrel work done(ie reprofile to .72) can easily reduce total weight to 7-8lbs

Rail height, all personal preferences. No go if you want to cowitness.

Easily remedied by replacing the pivot/takedown pin with standard pins.

Theres a bunch of people on HKpro that had the barrel cut down and nitrided(ie 416 clone style)

If not a HK, go LWRC. Barrett.. im sure theres a reason why none of the big name trainers mention Barrett as a recommendation.
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Old 09-02-2012, 2:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hungarian_Legionnaire View Post
If given the chance with what you know now about the LWRCi M6A2, would you would get the LMT CQB MRP instead? Both the M6A2 & CQB MRP weigh 7.3 lbs, although I the M6A2's rail is heavier, so the LMT is better balanced (when I haven handled both, one after another). I also like the monolithic upper of the LMT, LWRCi claims that when servicing/ cleaning the op-rod the rail section will return to zero, do you find this to be a fact? I wish LMT coated it's bolt carrier, bolt & fire control group in LWRCi (NiB) or EXO's patented nickel-boron surface conversion, but now that LWRCi supplier will do this process it really isn't an issue if you don't get an LWRC rifle to have the advantage of (NiB).
I was originally going to go with LMT but there's no guarantee it will cycle wolf. I felt like the gun should be able to cycle wolf just from a functionality standpoint, but realistically I almost never shoot wolf. In retrospect this seems a little silly, but at the time I suppose the ability to shoot wolf was a lot more important to me.

Are you sure there's a significant balance difference? They both seem to have the same stock, so if the LMT rail is lighter what on the rear is heavier? If the LMT balances significantly better for you I can see that being a deal breaker for LWRC. I often wish my LWRC was lighter but I don't see a practical way without getting rid of the rails (or switching to the M6-SL).

The top rail should return to zero, but I've never shot accurately enough with irons to notice. I use an ACOG so the BUIS are zeroed but I never bother trying to get groups small enough to tell if the sight drifted a few MOA or not. The screws will back out during firing, though, which can be fixed with locktite. I'm no expert marksman but I can shoot ~1MOA with M855.

For reference, here's the parts replacement schedule for LWRC:

Barrel: 20k rounds
Bolt Springs: 10k rounds
Piston Springs, Spring Cup: 3-5k rounds

LWRC recommends a flatwire buffer spring. I don't know the life expectancy (in rounds) of that. I put an LWRC upper on my lower so I can't speak to the FCG coating, but the bolt does stay extremely clean. It's possible you wouldn't need the coating on the LMT if the bolt stays as clean as my LWRC, which is good because I don't know if I'd trust someone to strip and re-coat a BCG. The piston parts didn't get that dirty, but they take a bit of finesse to remove.

At the end of the day I've had zero problems (jams, misfires, broken parts, etc) with my LWRC. It's a little heavy and the top rail needs locktite, but that's all I can find to nit pick. I'd be hesitant to buy anything else again knowing what I know now, but there are advantages to the others that might mean more to you than me (weight, quick change barrel, etc).
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Old 09-02-2012, 2:43 PM
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I don't really understand why someone would spend huge money on a rifle like one of these.

I know they are all very nice but I'm not convinced that they are going to work any better than a DI rifle that you keep well oiled and try not to fill up with sand.

I would rather have a quality $1,000 DI AR with 2,000 rounds of ammo (brass case), carbine course tuition, a bunch of magazines, good optics, a big bottle of lube and maybe some tactical nylon.

You can get all that for the price of some of the rifles suggested.

You might not be the envy of the gun range or good to go in a zero-visibility sand storm but I think you get more for your money with my option.
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Old 09-02-2012, 3:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hungarian_Legionnaire View Post
I'm having an EXTREMELY DIFFICULT time deciding between 3 or 4 piston AR's the contenders are:

LWRCi M6A2/ M6A2 SPR

LMT CQB MRP

Barrett REC7 (in 5.56)

Sig Sauer 516 (I've herd their Op-rods bend, I don't know if this is still an issue, or if it ever was?)

And possibly...

Colt LE6940P (I don't like how the BCG is not a solid one piece design)

I've narrowed it down to these piston AR's, I know that these are all the top tier AR manufactures with the quality, fit & finish in the AR market but, I want to make sure I purchase the right Piston Operated AR.

Things that are important to me are:

* Track Record.

* Carrier Tilt.

* Accuracy.

* Who's adopted i.e. Military Units, Gov. & LE Agencies?

* Torture tested, durability/ Proven in combat with Operators in the Middle East.

* Which one has experienced the most problems, been sent back to the manufacture the most.

And YOU'RE personal experiences (if YOU have one of the AR mentioned), What made YOU chose the piston AR you have and
why? What failures (if any) have YOU experienced, what are the Pros & Cons of YOU'RE AR (if any)?

I appreciate Any information to help me make up my mind and settle on either the LWRCi, LMT, Barrett, Colt or Sig. I have been a member of CG for a long time now & trust other members opinions, I just don't want to make a decision that I'll regret. + I am also getting the Tavor TAR-21 (which is piston operated as well as a bullpup)

Thanks.
HK416 is by far the most proven piston AR out there. You don't seem to like it or the MR556 so, LWRC has done pretty well in 5.56. I remember reading the REPR had problems, but the 5.56 rifles, at least recent ones, have been fine. I shot an A3 awhile back, nice gun.

If the Colt is the same gun as the one they submitted for the military carbine trials, I read that it works really well. Other than that, you're not going to get much information on the rifle as not many have had a chance to run it.

To me right now, HK is best choice, but LWRC would be next and I would have to wait and see on the Colt as it's really new, but could be an excellent choice as well. In fact I don't think any of them are bad choices, I just think these are the better ones.
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  #31  
Old 09-02-2012, 3:48 PM
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I have the lmt mrp piston. It runs every kind of ammo including steel case without a problem. I have had 0 problems and couldnt be happier with my purchase.
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  #32  
Old 09-03-2012, 4:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1000stars View Post
National Police Supply. Vista, CA is an authorized dealer for LWRC.

They custom order yours to your specs. furniture, color, barrel length, flash hider, Magpul stock w/ cheekriser and length of pull etc You are not limited to what is on website or catalog.

All straight from LWRC. CA compliant. Approx 3 weeks.

http://www.nationalpolicesupply.com/contact.php
Really? I like the M6A2 SPR a lot but think that the 12" rail/ handguard where you can add rail sections at 3, 9 & 6 o'clock positions is too long & would rather have the same rail that comes on the IC but is a 9" rail. Do you think that I could custom order that?
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  #33  
Old 09-03-2012, 4:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
FYI.
A modified version of the Colt 6940P is a contendor in the US Army's Individual Carbine Competition (currently in Phase 2 testing).
There's three gas-piston AR type carbines currently in the competition.
Adcor Defense BEAR Elite, Colt Advanced Piston Carbine and H&K HK-416.
The other carbines currently in the competition also use a gas-piston but they are not AR type carbines.
Beretta ARX-160A2, FN FNAC and Remington ACR.
That's one of the reasons I like the LE6940P because it is the APC, the only difference is that it's semi-auto & the APC has made it to phase 2 testing. As for the FNH FNAC it's just a SCAR with a nonreciprocating charging-handle, the new Remington Defense ACR has a magnesium lower that can accept AR pistol grips & trigger guards (I wish they would sell that lower for the Bushmaster ACR). Beretta defiantly got it right with the ARX-160A2, it's already been fielded in the Middle East, & in use with the Italian Army, SOF & some UK SOF, rumor has it there is going to be a semi-auto ARX 160 in the states, I like it but don't like the stock, it looks grate in FDE, but i'd rather have the FNH FNAC.
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  #34  
Old 09-03-2012, 6:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gat View Post
I was originally going to go with LMT but there's no guarantee it will cycle wolf. I felt like the gun should be able to cycle wolf just from a functionality standpoint, but realistically I almost never shoot wolf. In retrospect this seems a little silly, but at the time I suppose the ability to shoot wolf was a lot more important to me.

Are you sure there's a significant balance difference? They both seem to have the same stock, so if the LMT rail is lighter what on the rear is heavier? If the LMT balances significantly better for you I can see that being a deal breaker for LWRC. I often wish my LWRC was lighter but I don't see a practical way without getting rid of the rails (or switching to the M6-SL).

The top rail should return to zero, but I've never shot accurately enough with irons to notice. I use an ACOG so the BUIS are zeroed but I never bother trying to get groups small enough to tell if the sight drifted a few MOA or not. The screws will back out during firing, though, which can be fixed with locktite. I'm no expert marksman but I can shoot ~1MOA with M855.

For reference, here's the parts replacement schedule for LWRC:

Barrel: 20k rounds
Bolt Springs: 10k rounds
Piston Springs, Spring Cup: 3-5k rounds

LWRC recommends a flatwire buffer spring. I don't know the life expectancy (in rounds) of that. I put an LWRC upper on my lower so I can't speak to the FCG coating, but the bolt does stay extremely clean. It's possible you wouldn't need the coating on the LMT if the bolt stays as clean as my LWRC, which is good because I don't know if I'd trust someone to strip and re-coat a BCG. The piston parts didn't get that dirty, but they take a bit of finesse to remove.

At the end of the day I've had zero problems (jams, misfires, broken parts, etc) with my LWRC. It's a little heavy and the top rail needs locktite, but that's all I can find to nit pick. I'd be hesitant to buy anything else again knowing what I know now, but there are advantages to the others that might mean more to you than me (weight, quick change barrel, etc).
I wasn't aware that LMT was known for not functioning reliably with WOLF, but with the 1:7 barrel I wouldn't shoot WOLF, I have a few 1000 cases of new production 2012 Federal Lake City M855 62gr. Green Tip Penetrator, all the piston AR's I am inserted in have a 1:7 twist barrel, I HOPE whatever I choose to get loves this ammo.

Maybe it's just me with the balance of the LMT & LWRC (but the M6A2's rail is heavier), if you want the M6A2 but lighter you should check out the M6A2 SPR:

http://www.lwrci.com/p-250-m6a2-spr.aspx#inf-tabs

it's much lighter that the standard M6A2, it's spiral fluting shaves 20% of the weight off the standard barrel, the weight reduction in the front end make for an incredibly well balanced rifle. The sculpted rail has user configurable rail sections that can be added to 3, 6 & 9 o'clock as needed (instead of always having a quad rail & not needing it), but LWRCi sells 3 full length rails to turn it in to a quad rail. It handles very nicely & has an incredibly light swing weight.

The company that does the NiB coating also does it for LWRCi, if they trust them to coat a BCG & fire control group I would too. that's great that you haven't experienced any malfunctions of any kind with your M6A2, how many rounds do you have threw it & have you had to replace any parts on LWRC's recommended replacement schedule?

I do like the LMT CQB MRP, but I don't really care for the quick change barrel system, it's not like I'm going to be going threw barrels, or pay to have an SBR, my only concern with that is will the barrel ever come loose. IMO the only rifle to get the quick barrel change done right was the Steyr AUG, it can be done in seconds without tools & has no adverse affects on accuracy.

... If you ever get around to checking the zero of your BUIS i'd like to know if the rail portion that comes off actually holds it's zero, also have you called LWRCi about the two screws that hold that rail on? You shouldn't need to put locktite on them, they are suppose to stay in place with rubber o-rings (I think), maybe you just need a new set?

Thanks for the detailed comment on your experiences with your M6A2.
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  #35  
Old 09-03-2012, 6:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFFRONTMAN View Post
I have the lmt mrp piston. It runs every kind of ammo including steel case without a problem. I have had 0 problems and couldnt be happier with my purchase.
How many rounds do you have threw it, & it will run everything you feed it including WOLF? What kind of accuracy are you getting with the 62-67gr. ammo? Thanks
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  #36  
Old 09-03-2012, 6:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wash View Post
I don't really understand why someone would spend huge money on a rifle like one of these.

I know they are all very nice but I'm not convinced that they are going to work any better than a DI rifle that you keep well oiled and try not to fill up with sand.

I would rather have a quality $1,000 DI AR with 2,000 rounds of ammo (brass case), carbine course tuition, a bunch of magazines, good optics, a big bottle of lube and maybe some tactical nylon.

You can get all that for the price of some of the rifles suggested.

You might not be the envy of the gun range or good to go in a zero-visibility sand storm but I think you get more for your money with my option.
None of the piston AR choices I have made have been made out of being envied on the range, that's a ridiculous remark to make.

Also if the DI Legacy AR was doing as well as you make it out to be then the US Military wouldn't be spending millions trying to find a replacement, there wouldn't be a need for the The US Army's Individual Carbine Competition, which is at phase two & all contenders are of the piston operated type.

Reliability is what I am looking for in an AR Wash, & my idea of reliability in an AR is to not to "Sh1t where you eat", why have to worry about keeping a DI AR's BCG "wet"? Having all that unburnt powder, carbon fouling & heat dumped in to the most vital part of my rifle when just doing a 3 day advanced carbine course, or going to the shooting range would "bother me", but I would NOT trust my life to a DI AR going in to combat in Afghanistan or Iraq with that system. (I've already had two tours in LeStan, with a completely different weapon system, that I did trust my life with)

...Would you? Or would you want a cooler, cleaner running & more reliable piston AR?
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  #37  
Old 09-03-2012, 1:12 PM
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I would be perfectly content to take one of my DI ARs to war.

I usually go more than 500 rounds between cleanings and just add a little oil if I let it get too dry and it hiccoughs. If I was in a war, oiling it every day and cleaning it occasionally, it would never miss a beat.

Of course that's assuming I would have decent ammo that burns clean.

The worst malfunction I've ever seen in a good AR was a gas piston rifle with a steel case stuck in the chamber and the rim ripped off of it. Instant stoppage and the case needed to get pounded out with a cleaning rod. But it was a gas piston system and I bet that bolt carrier was clean!

It's not quite Afghanistan but my DI ARs have worked out at Coalinga and over there the wind makes it impossible to keep dust and tumbleweeds out of your action.

The supposed lack of reliability of DI ARs is grossly exaggerated, probably by soldiers that don't fire or maintain their rifle nearly enough to know what is going on.

Those rifles you mention are very nice, finely made and probably as reliable as any AR but I don't think the value proposition is all that great.

Also, I never said you want to be the envy of the range. I said a $1,000 AR isn't going to make you the envy of the range. Lots of people have $1,000 ARs and a good one can look extremely ordinary.

An important point to consider is that the military has been looking to replace the M4/M16 rifle for quite a long time but they still haven't done it. They spend billions on stealth bombers but can't justify spending money to issue a new assault rifle or adopt a new caliber even though they have been trying to for years.

As wasteful as our military can be they still look at cost/benefit ratios and choose the M4 and M16A2/A3.
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  #38  
Old 09-03-2012, 1:29 PM
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How does the LWCi compare to the Adams Arms? I love my AA, but who knows what my next purchase will be...

I don't want to thread jack, but would like to have a frame of reference. I've googled a bit, but haven't found any solid answers.

Last edited by Brick562; 09-03-2012 at 1:30 PM.. Reason: Error in post...need to learn how to ctrl v....
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  #39  
Old 09-03-2012, 1:58 PM
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Looking at the guts of the various short stroke gas piston systems and the FN FAL, in my opinion the AA system looks as good as any if you take steps to ensure carrier tilt does not occur and your cam pin doesn't tear up the inside of your upper (their bolt spring probably takes care of that).

The only weakness I see is the skinny gas piston but there isn't room to make it bigger and they don't seem to break so my concern is probably unwarranted.

The bottom line is that gas piston systems replace a direct impingement system that doesn't break with a gas piston system that seems reliable.

That's not buying much.
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Originally Posted by oaklander
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Old 09-03-2012, 2:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wash View Post
Looking at the guts of the various short stroke gas piston systems and the FN FAL, in my opinion the AA system looks as good as any if you take steps to ensure carrier tilt does not occur and your cam pin doesn't tear up the inside of your upper (their bolt spring probably takes care of that).

The only weakness I see is the skinny gas piston but there isn't room to make it bigger and they don't seem to break so my concern is probably unwarranted.

The bottom line is that gas piston systems replace a direct impingement system that doesn't break with a gas piston system that seems reliable.

That's not buying much.
I appreciate the general discussion, but I am looking for specifics on the difference in engineering between the two, as well as any other quality considerations.

As for it not being a value added proposition, I don't remember this thread being titled "Which is the best Piston system, Piston or DI." Many people choose to buy DI, and that is awesome. Some people also buy lever action rifles. Those are great too. Muskets, also awesome. But this thread seems to comparing piston to piston AR's. Thanks.
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