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  #1  
Old 08-14-2012, 3:42 PM
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Default Customer changes his mind.

Several monthes ago I made an offer on a K98 that a customer of mine owned. His father brought it back from Italy during WWII. He told me his father said he "bought" 7 of them for a carton of cigarettes. Sold the rest to his buddies and kept this one. Its a 1937 ERMA arsenal. Very nice bluing and a shiny bore. The stock is nice except foe a gouge on the right side of the handguard. All the numbers match aswell. As you might guess he brought it in today and I bought it. Not sure what I'm going to do with it since we already have a K98 and I'm not to excited about duplicates. I'll have to discuss it with my son. Might be open to a trade. Here's a pic.
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  #2  
Old 08-14-2012, 4:09 PM
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I'll trade you a nice Finn!!
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  #3  
Old 08-14-2012, 5:21 PM
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That's nice.

Prewar had better workmanship, I think.

Matching numbers is unusual and worth something.

Yours has a laminate stock, I believe 1937 was just about the time they were going over to mostly laminate from solid walnut. Or it could be a wartime replacement stock. I can't make out any proof marks on the butt below the takedown disk.

I dunno, if the bluing is that nice, and the numbers match, I'd keep it.

If you take the action out of the stock, there may be a manufacturing date in red rubber-stamp ink inside the barrel channel. Mauser Oberndorf did that, don't know about Erma.
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  #4  
Old 08-14-2012, 6:26 PM
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That's a nice one. I'd like to see some more pics of that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wernher von Browning View Post
Yours has a laminate stock, I believe 1937 was just about the time they were going over to mostly laminate from solid walnut. Or it could be a wartime replacement stock. I can't make out any proof marks on the butt below the takedown disk.
Flat buttplate screams early laminate to me.
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I am currently cleaning it and I noticed when I squeeze the snake this white paste like substance comes out. What the heck is this crap?
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  #5  
Old 08-14-2012, 7:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mosinnagantm9130 View Post

Flat buttplate screams early laminate to me.
So you made me pull out "Backbone of the Wehrmacht" by Richard D. Law.

The early guns had walnut and flat buttplates. 1936, 1937 was all walnut. Laminates began appearing in 1938 but still flat buttplate. The cupped buttplate came later, 1941.

If the ordnance stamps below the takedown disc are legible, it might be interesting to look up the Waffenamt number and see if it's consistent with ERMA. There should be a stack of three stamps between the buttplate and bolt takedown disc. Two of those should have WaA and a number. The number would identify if this was an ERMA stock or not.

A German book I have, "Karabiner 98 kurz" by Friedrich Graf, says laminate began appearing in 1938. It's beech plywood, it says. But walnut continued to be used to the end of the war, if and when it was available. Laminate warped less and had fewer factory rejects, 1 to 1.5%, walnut had about 10% rejects. Says laminate weighed nearly a pound more. With other mods (bayonet, cleaning rod, band spring, etc) there were at least 100 different stock variations.
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  #6  
Old 08-14-2012, 7:47 PM
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If it's determined that that stock is not correct for that rifle, and you want to throw some money into it, there's a fellow in Europe that sells stocks. He can usually match something that would be "correct" for the year and originating factory of a rifle.
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Old 08-14-2012, 8:00 PM
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I'm no K98 expert, but is it possible that this is a late 1937 action that received an early 1938 laminate stock at the factory?
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I am currently cleaning it and I noticed when I squeeze the snake this white paste like substance comes out. What the heck is this crap?
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  #8  
Old 08-14-2012, 9:20 PM
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hmmmm I need to see some more photos of that thing. Both Mosin and Brown are right. Plus the time where he found it in Italy suggest its 1943-44 time frame and the Germans where known for doing drastic things to the rifles since the war was going south.
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  #9  
Old 08-14-2012, 9:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mosinnagantm9130 View Post
I'm no K98 expert, but is it possible that this is a late 1937 action that received an early 1938 laminate stock at the factory?
No idea. If one knew the complete number, with the letter "block" code, one might get an estimate of what part of the year it was made.

I don't think the laminates appeared all of a sudden on Jan. 1, 1938. Those too were phased in. Law says a total of 99,265 98ks were made by ERMA in 1937. Serial numbers are four digits with a letter suffix.
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Old 08-14-2012, 9:33 PM
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Yeah need to take a look of the block code as well. As for Browning I am seeing the same thing in the book. The book says on pg 50 that the Stock Type is suppose to be Solid Walnut. However on pg 60 for 1938 it says the ERMA had both solid walnut and laminated. 168,339 were made and numbers are such as 5474-6650i.
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Old 08-15-2012, 7:23 AM
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A little more info. Sorry for the mistake, the date is 1939. The code is 27, ERMA from what I've found. The serial #, 6787, appears on every part that has a number, including the stock. There are several waffenamts with the number 280 under them. I guess 280 is an inspectors number. There 3 faint waffenamts in the stock behind the takedown disk. There are 2 more in the stock behind the trigger guard.
I have the rifle here at the shop, so if anyone wants me to take a pic, let me know. Also after talking to my son, we're going to keep this one. So our RC well probably be available. I have a friend that's interested in it, I'll give him 1st shot at it.
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  #12  
Old 08-15-2012, 7:30 AM
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yeah I would love to see some pic ERMA IMO are some of the best pre-war builds.
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Old 08-15-2012, 8:03 AM
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Paul, I'm interested. If you happen to be coming up to Saturday's Silhouette match, bring it! Otherwise PM me, lets set up a meet
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  #14  
Old 08-15-2012, 8:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Lugnuts View Post
A little more info. Sorry for the mistake, the date is 1939.
That changes things. The laminate stock may well be original to that rifle.

Quote:
The code is 27, ERMA from what I've found. The serial #, 6787, appears on every part that has a number, including the stock.
Where on the stock? Should be across the underside, just behind the pistol grip I think, smallish numbers, maybe 1/8 inch (3mm) high.

Look on the receiver and barrel -- there should be a letter after (or, more likely, below -- right at the woodline) the 6787 on both barrel and receiver. That's the block letter. The numbering would go up to, say, 9999b, then roll over to 0001c or some such. Sometimes their letters are hard to read because of the script used, a c or e or a look kind of similar. That letter won't be repeated on the other matching numbered parts because there's just no room, they'll use 6787 or just 87 to keep the bits for one gun together through bluing, assembly, etc.


Quote:
There are several waffenamts with the number 280 under them. I guess 280 is an inspectors number.
Sort of. The 280 was assigned to the Army officer in charge of that inspection team. If/when he was reassigned to another manufacturing company, the number went with him and the crew at his former assignment got a new boss with a new number. At any time, there was more than one guy doing inspecting at each manufacturing plant but "Number 280" had ultimate responsibility. I'm not sure how it worked in US arsenals -- you can find American rifles rebuilt at the Ogden arsenal with Elmer Keith's initials (and another guy -- Ed Klouser -- also used EK -- one stamp reads OGEK, another O.G.E.K) -- but does that mean Elmer Keith personally inspected that rifle? I don't know, and given the number of rifles going through, I tend to think not.

There are several lists of what WaA went with which supplier (not just of guns). Wikipedia's is probably as good as any --

WaA280 S/27 Erma und Geipel Erfurt 1935 - 37
WaA280 27 Erma Erfurt 1938 - 40
WaA280 ax Erma Erfurt 1940 - 41
WaA280 ayf erma 42-- 280 ayf
WaA280 S/243 Mauser-Werke Borsigwalde 1938
WaA280 243 Mauser Borsigwalde 1938
WaA280 cww Carl Weiss Braunschweig 1942
WaA280 ce Sauer und Sohn Suhl 1942 - 44


Note that the team (better said, the inspector -- one person -- with number 280) had multiple responsibilities -- ERMA Erfurt as well as Mauser Borsigwalde at the same time -- and later went to inspect whatever it was that [edit: leather goods] "Carl Weiss, Braunschweig" made in 1942, and (either concurrently or after Weiss) the rifles and other stuff made by Sauer from 42-44.

Here's something, source unknown, found on Scribd --
http://www.scribd.com/doc/52425292/d...ings-and-codes

When a Waffenamt Officer (Acceptance Inspector) assumed command of an inspectionteam, he received a commission number and a corresponding numbered set of Wehr-maschtabnahmestempel (common term: Waffenamt Stamps). When the Waffenamt Officer
was transferred to another factory, he took his stamps with him, but left the rest of his in-spection team at the factory for the next Officer. The Waffenamt Officer in charge couldmove from one factory to another. Some examples are: (WaA214) at the J.P. Sauer in fac-tory in Suhl in 1938, to the Berlin Lubecker Machinenfabriken in 1939, or (WaA63) Mauser-Werke in Oberndorf a.N. (Germany) to BRNO in Czechoslovakia in 1940. These transferswere not uncommon.



Quote:
There 3 faint waffenamts in the stock behind the takedown disk. There are 2 more in the stock behind the trigger guard.
All correct. The topmost one on the stock -- anything different about it?
And the next two down -- are they also WaA 280? That would indicate that the stock came out of ERMA. If not out of ERMA, it's likely a replacement, but if ERMA, may well be original. Treat those stamps like gold. Don't sand, don't steel wool, don't do anything to them.

Quote:
I have the rifle here at the shop, so if anyone wants me to take a pic, let me know. Also after talking to my son, we're going to keep this one. So our RC well probably be available. I have a friend that's interested in it, I'll give him 1st shot at it.
Oh, if it's a choice between an RC and what you've described, absolutely no question -- the ERMA gun is the keeper. I just don't like RCs, and your ERMA has tons more history -- prewar, higher quality, matching numbers (EXTREMELY rare), and a GI bringback. It doesn't get any better.

Now, just don't go shooting corrosive Yugo (or German for that matter) surplus crap through it. You can buy Prvi Partisan to just shoot (save the brass for reloading), but the stuff is notoriously inaccurate so don't blame the gun just yet -- I was measuring I think 300 ft/sec differences and a full foot change in drop at 100 yds in a single box of the stuff. If you want to shoot your Mauser with some accuracy, you have to handload. Winchester and Norma have good brass, Sierra has a good 200 gr match bullet, CCI benchrest primers work better for me than Winchester. Your best accuracy will be with loads that don't push a bullet quite as fast as the military standard when these were new.

Not knowing what year your RC is, or what parts were thrown together to assemble it, try putting the two next to each other and note the detail differences, especially in machining quality. Trigger guard, magazine bottom plate, barrel bands. I think you'll again convince yourself that the ERMA is the keeper.

I don't know Mauser prices but I would guess that an all-matching gun is going to be $1000 minimum. The mixmasters are already getting $400 to $500. And no, "Mitchell's Mausers" are not matching. They were just made to look that way. With a good selection of number stamps, anything is possible. Those are not even worthy of considering when it comes to comparing prices / qualities.

Now you get to look for a correct-year, matching-number bayonet and scabbard... Again beware of cheap Chinese repros for $30 or so.
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:03 AM
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Honestly, if that gun is all matching I would not fire it. Matching K98s are like hens teeth...plus, if a part breaks, it's not all matching any more.
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My neighbors think I'm a construction worker named Bruce.

Little do they know that's just my stripper outfit and name.
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I am currently cleaning it and I noticed when I squeeze the snake this white paste like substance comes out. What the heck is this crap?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff L View Post
Don't D&T a virgin milsurp rifle. You'll burn in collector hell.
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mosinnagantm9130 View Post
Honestly, if that gun is all matching I would not fire it. Matching K98s are like hens teeth...plus, if a part breaks, it's not all matching any more.
Yeah I agree with the Russkie especially if its an ERMA all matching and Pre-War...the value of that is a collectors gem. Not to mention it is a bring back and collectors go nuts over it. I would just leave the ERMA as is and just enjoy the historical value and significance of it.
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:24 AM
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Amazing amount of info Werhner! Yea, I've already been offered $1k for it, but at this point my son would kill me if I sold it. Here's some more pics. Sorry my camera doesn't do closeups well.
There is a lowercase i under the 6787 on the left side of the receiver, if that's the letter you're talking about.


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Old 08-15-2012, 10:28 AM
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oooo so purdy. Yeah 1K$ or more sounds about right. Maybe even 1500$ is someone really wanted it bad. Man just look at the blueing and finish, gorgeous and prime example of a prewar Mauser. It looks to be an "I" block SN. Good stuff, I certainly wouldn't shoot that.
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:59 AM
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The "H" you see on the underside of the stock stands for "Heer". That was the german army.

You might want to post this rifle over on the gunboards K98 subforum, the true hardcore K98 collectors hang there. They could tell you just about everything about that rifle.

Edit: Is the bolt chromed, or is that just the pictures? Is the rifle import marked?
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My neighbors think I'm a construction worker named Bruce.

Little do they know that's just my stripper outfit and name.
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Originally Posted by ChopperX View Post
I am currently cleaning it and I noticed when I squeeze the snake this white paste like substance comes out. What the heck is this crap?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff L View Post
Don't D&T a virgin milsurp rifle. You'll burn in collector hell.
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Old 08-15-2012, 11:11 AM
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Regarding the 3 waffenamts on the stock. They are faint and there are some nicks in that area. The top one is small with what looks like a circle under it. The next one is larger and looks like 280 under it, but I can't swear to it. the 3rd one is a little smaller. The one below the serial number on the stock is about how clear they are.
Don't worry, I'm not going to touch anything on this rifle.
I've been getting lots of PMs on this, but we not going to sell this one. Here's a pic of the RC. Some people have expressed interest. I should know by next week what the plan for it is.
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Old 08-15-2012, 11:21 AM
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Bolt doesn't look chrome, more like polished steel. There are no import marks. I've know the guy a bought it from for years and I believe his story. He also has a Luger and what looks like a Hitler Youth helmet, to small to fit and adult head.
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Old 08-15-2012, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Lugnuts View Post
Bolt doesn't look chrome, more like polished steel. There are no import marks. I've know the guy a bought it from for years and I believe his story. He also has a Luger and what looks like a Hitler Youth helmet, to small to fit and adult head.
That's weird, the bolt should be blued. Maybe it got stripped at some point? The rifle doesn't look like a Mitchell's.
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My neighbors think I'm a construction worker named Bruce.

Little do they know that's just my stripper outfit and name.
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Originally Posted by ChopperX View Post
I am currently cleaning it and I noticed when I squeeze the snake this white paste like substance comes out. What the heck is this crap?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff L View Post
Don't D&T a virgin milsurp rifle. You'll burn in collector hell.
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Old 08-15-2012, 11:38 AM
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Mitchell's I'm not sure what the story with the bolt is, but its number is 6787 like everything else.
I'm in Carmichael, near Sacramento, if anyone wants to stop by and see it. Done with lunch need to make some $$
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Old 08-15-2012, 11:47 AM
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Hmm isit the camera or does the bolt look like a "ghost bolt" as in no blueing? Hard to tell in the photo. As Mosin said that should be blued and the closest thing to a ghost bolt is the white phosphorous the germans used at the end of the war on the kreigs models.
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Old 08-15-2012, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by mosinnagantm9130 View Post
Honestly, if that gun is all matching I would not fire it. Matching K98s are like hens teeth...plus, if a part breaks, it's not all matching any more.
Who are we saving these things for?

My classic cars will be outlawed someday, or I won't be able to buy fuel for them anymore. Who am I saving them for?

My daily driver is a Porsche built in 1965. I've put a quarter million miles on it and previous owners have probably put just as much on. "Oh, you shouldn't drive it, it's a classic!" To you, maybe. To me, it's fun wheels and I wouldn't get nearly as much fun out of waxing it as I do from driving it.

The way things are going, someday we won't be allowed to own functional guns, or buy ammo, or reloading components, or go out someplace where you can let these bullets run. Enjoy 'em now, in whatever way you like (shooting, waxing the stock, whatever, it's YOUR gun), your time with them may be limited.

As for shooting this particular gun -- consider what it's been through to get to your hands. Five and a half years of war (well, maybe 4 1/2 until it was captured). It must have fired thousands of rounds, if not in combat then in practice and qualifying. I doubt very much that any additional wear you put on it will be significant. Also, wear decreases sharply if one doesn't fire full-power loads -- and there's no reason to anymore, not even for target competition. Check the barrel, clean it really well, fire off some Prvi commercial loads to get experience then start reloading. A chronograph is an extremely useful tool. Your best accuracy will be a few grains below a load that replicates the original-issue ammo (claimed to be 2600 ft/sec). My own loads clock at about 2200 -- 2250 ft/sec with IMR 4064 and 200 gr MatchKings. We're not shooting at a trenchline 1000 yards away, which is what this thing was designed to do originally.
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Old 08-15-2012, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Wernher von Browning View Post
Who are we saving these things for?

My classic cars will be outlawed someday, or I won't be able to buy fuel for them anymore. Who am I saving them for?

My daily driver is a Porsche built in 1965. I've put a quarter million miles on it and previous owners have probably put just as much on. "Oh, you shouldn't drive it, it's a classic!" To you, maybe. To me, it's fun wheels and I wouldn't get nearly as much fun out of waxing it as I do from driving it.

The way things are going, someday we won't be allowed to own functional guns, or buy ammo, or reloading components, or go out someplace where you can let these bullets run. Enjoy 'em now, in whatever way you like (shooting, waxing the stock, whatever, it's YOUR gun), your time with them may be limited.

Hmmm I agree somewhat but I guess that's why I have 5 mausers. One I never shoot and touch only with gloves, the others I shoot and let them have fun at the range. To me, seeing a rifle like the OP is something I would just put in glass jar and just drool over. That would make me happy knowing I got something that survived WW2 and earned its spot in history.
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Old 08-15-2012, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Wernher von Browning View Post
Who are we saving these things for?
Future generations.

Let the RCs, bolt M/M, Yugos and Czech K98s be shooters.
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I am currently cleaning it and I noticed when I squeeze the snake this white paste like substance comes out. What the heck is this crap?
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Old 08-15-2012, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Paulie Lugnuts View Post
There is a lowercase i under the 6787 on the left side of the receiver, if that's the letter you're talking about.
Yes. We can figure out about when in the year this was made.
0001-9999 (first through 9999; Law, p. 74, says first block had no letter)
0001-9999a (10,000th through 19,998th)
0001-9999b
...
0001-9999i
...
So, 8 letters plus no letter before your I, 9x9999=89,991
Plus yours is 6787i. = 96,778th rifle built in that series, that year.

Law, page 146, says ERMA built 135,709 98ks that year. Last observed example was 5722m. (Math works out -- 12 letters before m, plus no letter, is 13 series -- 13 x 9999, plus 5722, = 129,987 + 5722 =135,709)

Assuming a steady rate of production throughout the year (I have no way of knowing if that's correct), that puts yours 71% through the year's production run, and if we figure 71% of the calendar year, that puts us at mid-September (Sept. 17). About the time Germany invaded Poland (Sept. 1). So, technically, that would make it a wartime gun. Note there are a lot of assumptions here -- rate of production, holidays, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Lugnuts View Post
Regarding the 3 waffenamts on the stock. They are faint and there are some nicks in that area. The top one is small with what looks like a circle under it.
Eagle holding a swastika in a ring.



And remember what I said about certain parties having a very extensive collection of stamps, to fake just about any thing they want? Have a look at this, where I found that graphic --

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/...=nazi+&catid=0

Quote:
The next one is larger and looks like 280 under it, but I can't swear to it.
That would be the correct Waffenamt stamp for ERMA.

Quote:
the 3rd one is a little smaller.
And probably says the same thing, WaA 280 (why two? Well, different stages in the inspection process). Congratulations, has all the signs of being completely original. The white bolt thing, I can't explain though, but I wouldn't sweat that.

Quote:
The one below the serial number on the stock is about how clear they are.
Don't worry, I'm not going to touch anything on this rifle.
I've been getting lots of PMs on this, but we not going to sell this one.
Go shoot it.
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Old 08-15-2012, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by mosinnagantm9130 View Post
Future generations.

Let the RCs, bolt M/M, Yugos and Czech K98s be shooters.
agreed. Not bad coming from Mr. Mosin himself
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Old 08-15-2012, 1:11 PM
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Paulie, if you want to get into the whole Mauser lore thing, this is a good book to get.

http://www.amazon.com/Backbone-Wehrm...+the+wehrmacht
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Old 08-15-2012, 1:14 PM
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Hmmm I agree somewhat...
Somewhat?

Is that the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle?

(Sorry. But do you realize how long I had to wait to use that?)
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Old 08-15-2012, 1:32 PM
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Some background on the cities where "Inspector 280" was working.

ERMA was in Erfurt, in the province of Thuringia (as in Thuringer sausages); postwar East Germany.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt

Leather goods maker Carl Weiss was in the city of Braunschweig (as in Braunschweiger sausages... do we have a theme here?) in postwar West Germany.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braunschweig

But wurst of all, his last assignment was in Suhl, (again in Thuringia, postwar East Germany), where they don't make any branded sausages at all. But they do still have an active gun industry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suhl
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauer_%26_Sohn

They can make the best of a wurst situation.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10364044@N00/2842991403/
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Old 08-15-2012, 2:03 PM
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Wow... this is some craziness. Looks like dad did better than we first thought! Yeah... I'd be pretty opposed to selling it at this point. And I can understand where folks are coming from on the shoot or no shoot debate... I'd not shoot any of our surplus through it, but I'd still like to take it to the range a few times. Would just have to be very careful with it.

Going to need to find a matching Bayo and Scabbard for it dated '39. An original Frog would be nice too, but I know those are hard to come by. A sling would be needed as well and a cleaning rod. Have to wonder, though, at this point in production, were these outfitted with sight hoods? Or did those come later?

Hmm, with all the work we put into our Russian Capture, I'd be sad to see it go, given we can shoot pretty much any of our surplus and such through it without really worrying about it. Always do clean it well. Buuut... with AKM/AK-74 Kit Build plans on the horizon, that CETME to polish up and lines on both an all-matching near-mint G43 and an original K98 Sniper with a ZF39 Scope out there... maybe we could use the moola. Would just mean we'd have to find another later war K98 in the future, heh.

I don't mind duplicates of the same model, as long as they're individually distinct.
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Old 08-15-2012, 2:24 PM
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Sell it, Shoot it or just Look at it. Right now all that matters is you have it and can decide later what to do with it !
Am I too early for "I will take it" ? LOL
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Old 08-15-2012, 2:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Airman Skitters View Post
Going to need to find a matching Bayo and Scabbard for it dated '39. An original Frog would be nice too, but I know those are hard to come by. A sling would be needed as well and a cleaning rod. Have to wonder, though, at this point in production, were these outfitted with sight hoods? Or did those come later?
There's a 1937 on Ebay now, matching, that would be correct for mine, but I'm not going to bid on it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/380461313564

I figure $200 tops for a good matching set.

Slings, cleaning rods, sight hoods are available as cheap repros to tide you over until you find the real things, if you insist on that. Note that there are two different cleaning rod lengths. I believe the 1939 would use a short, 10" rod but I'm not sure. Drop a welding rod or something in the hole to check.

Update. Original cleaning rods, from a seller in Holland that I've dealt with before (he's good, I'll vouch for him; got a beautiful correct year walnut stock with correct Mauser/Oberndorf Waffenamt stamps from him):
http://www.k98stocks.com/
$100 for a ten-inch. Ouch. Only $35 for a 12". If you're going to go for an original 10" rod, you can ask Mario if he has one that just so happens to be stamped 87. Figure your odds are 1 in 100, and there must be at least 100 original rods still floating around the planet, so sooner or later you can find a matching-numbered 10" rod.

Original hoods, $25.

The seller's name is Mario Kabalt and in the Mauser world, his name comes up sooner or later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SApHAU6EfJ8

Law says the 1939 ERMA guns had a short, 10" rod.

You can find package deals on Ebay for all three items --

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trks...sling&_sacat=0

To install / remove the sight hood, use "outside" snap ring pliers to gently spread them.

Law says a 1939 ERMA did not leave the factory with a sight hood. But it's possible an armorer cut the slots for one, later in the war (I've seen that done to guns that aren't supposed to have them). Paulie, check to see if there are two horizontal grooves on either side of the front sight ramp. If not, then you don't need a sight hood for originality.

The repros seem to be coming out of the former Yugoslavia.
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Old 08-15-2012, 3:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Airman Skitters View Post
Wow... this is some craziness. Looks like dad did better than we first thought! Yeah... I'd be pretty opposed to selling it at this point. And I can understand where folks are coming from on the shoot or no shoot debate... I'd not shoot any of our surplus through it, but I'd still like to take it to the range a few times. Would just have to be very careful with it.
Would it make you feel any better about shooting it if you could convince yourself that you're leaving the gun in BETTER condition afterwards than when you got it?

Try this. When you get the gun, buy a bottle of Bore-Tech Eliminator cleaning solvent. I love this stuff. It's far more aggressive on copper than Sweet's 7.62, yet it won't damage barrels or bluing and they say you can leave it in at the end, as an oil / preservative. I've fooled around with several magic potions and was disappointed by most -- Hoppe's #9, Hoppe's Eliminator, Sweet's, Ballistol (although Ballistol has other uses, it's not a copper killer). The Bore-Tech is a keeper.

So try this. Clean the barrel (use bore guide from the breech end!) as best you can with your usual technique. Satisfied that it's clean? Now try the Bore-Tech with an appropriate non-copper-containing loop and nylon brush and jag. I'll bet you get more blue coming out, for quite a while yet, even after you think it's clean.

See? You just took your 73 year old rifle and gave it a better cleaning than it's had in decades.

Check your headspace, work up some mild handloads, and go for it.
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Old 08-15-2012, 4:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Paulie Lugnuts View Post
Bolt doesn't look chrome, more like polished steel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mosinnagantm9130 View Post
That's weird, the bolt should be blued. Maybe it got stripped at some point? The rifle doesn't look like a Mitchell's.
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Originally Posted by Paulie Lugnuts View Post
Mitchell's I'm not sure what the story with the bolt is, but its number is 6787 like everything else.
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Originally Posted by SKSer45 View Post
Hmm isit the camera or does the bolt look like a "ghost bolt" as in no blueing? Hard to tell in the photo. As Mosin said that should be blued and the closest thing to a ghost bolt is the white phosphorous the germans used at the end of the war on the kreigs models.

I may be on to something here.

Paulie, if you pull the bolt out, and look on the underside, what shape are the two large gas vent ports?

I won't say any more just now... Let it be a (good) surprise if it's what I think it is.
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Old 08-15-2012, 4:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Wernher von Browning View Post
I may be on to something here.

Paulie, if you pull the bolt out, and look on the underside, what shape are the two large gas vent ports?

I won't say any more just now... Let it be a (good) surprise if it's what I think it is.
Awwww Brown you could have just asked for my autograph

yes be interesting to see what the gas vent ports are....that will alot.
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Old 08-15-2012, 4:35 PM
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These holes? The bolt looks much shiner in the pic than it looks in real life, camera flash I guess.
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Old 08-15-2012, 5:36 PM
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OK. Same as mine, oval ports, milled into the bolt and not just drilled.

My bolt is white also -- kind of.

Here's the thing. I can tell it had some kind of non-white finish in areas like the bolt handle root, and along the body just behind the extractor collar in line with the lugs. The rear (third, safety) lug has some bluing on it but some is worn away. There is some bluing still visible just forward of the "split" lug (the one that the ejector blade goes through) but then it turns shiny again toward the tip of that projection. On my example, it looks like it's shiny from lots of use. Yours doesn't seem to show any residual bluing whatsoever in your photo. But look at the splilt lug in your photo -- the one on the bottom. Is that shiny in the middle of that face, and darker around the edges? Is that residual bluing? And the extractor -- is that some bluing on the forward part, just ahead of that other lug?

I can't find a clear answer on whether they were supposed to be blued or not. The pictures in Law seem to show blued bolts. Pictures on the Simpsons Ltd. site also show blued bolts.

In that German book detailing every last part of the 98K, I found this, translating freely:

Bolt.
First version: Polished bolt. The guide rail is present (6mm wide, 2mm high, 57mm long). The vent holes are milled oval holes (5.4 mm wide, 10.2 mm long).

Second version: The bolt is no longer polished. Guide rail is present... Vent holes are drilled (6mm diameter).

Third version: No longer polished, no guide rail, drilled vent holes.


I thought I was onto something with the use of the word "polished" but then realized they could have polished these and then blued them anyway.

There's online arguments about this.

http://www.jouster.com/forums/showth...-bolt-question

http://thefiringline.com/forums/arch...?t-464916.html

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/a.../t-311795.html


My take is, if the number stamped on the topside root of the bolt handle matches the rest of the gun, it's most likely original. Why it's in the white -- who knows. Maybe ERMA did it that way. Maybe they only did it on that day for whoever knows what internal reasons. Maybe the bluing tank was broken that day and all the other parts were blued on a different day. Maybe it was close to quitting time and they had a quota to get out. Maybe it was polished off in the field. Maybe the GI bringing it back was bored out of his mind on the troopship and got some Brasso from the sailors and polished it to kill some time. Maybe it's natural wear or aging. Maybe it's a bunch of things. I say, if you have every indication that all the parts match, and no indications that this was somehow faked (and so far all the other pieces of the puzzle fit and match), then don't worry about whether it should be blued or not. It is what it is because that's the way it is.

I see this all the time in the old car community. People arguing about the finish on screw heads and such. Or claiming that all the screw slots need to line up. Come on now. These were manufactured products and people tried to get the stuff out as best they could as fast as they could and if there was some detail that was a bit off, as long as it didn't affect function, it was "good to go." I saw this argument about Porsche engines once. Some self-appointed guru claimed that there was a 1:1 sequential relationship between engine numbers and chassis numbers -- chassis A got engine 1, next car on the line was chassis B and got engine 2, etc. I've seen how the factory operated and anybody else who has worked in a factory knows this -- Johann Forklift just grabbed the first engine in the rack that met specs and delivered it to the line to be installed. If an engine didn't pass its dyno test, it was sent back to the line for rework. Does anybody think that they held up the line, or pulled that body off the line, to wait for the engine to be fixed and retested? And I have copies of a handwritten ledger book from that assembly line, covering the day one of my cars was built, that shows chassis numbers on a given day varied across a range of about 100 -- but engine numbers had a range of 300 (with lots of gaps of course). So much for a 1:1 relationship. Only gurus who have never worked on a line would believe that.
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