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  #1  
Old 07-21-2012, 6:35 PM
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Default Sycamore Canyon/ Marron Valley San Diego Closure

A BLM fire closure of the entire Sycamore Canyon and Marron Valley Area will be conducting within the next two weeks. Recreational Shooting will not be allowed due to the numerous fires started by recreational shooting in the area. Please take note and plan accordingly. Once the closure is in effect there will be a zero tolerance policy for recreational shooting. You will be cited! Signs and the closure order will be posted in accordance with federal regulations.
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Old 07-21-2012, 7:43 PM
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I just checked the BLM/El Centro district web site, and this does not appear in their closure list.

Where did this announcement originate?
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Old 07-21-2012, 7:53 PM
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Inquiring minds want to know. I sent an email to the Palm Springs office, asking about closures and such in the Marron Valley area and as of Thursday, there were none. I saw brush rigs this morning, but they were headed further south. I'm glad I got to shoot today though.


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Old 07-21-2012, 8:32 PM
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Well that sucks... Less places now for the time being.
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Old 07-22-2012, 2:49 AM
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Anything official found yet? I was going to go Monday.....

Steve
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Old 07-22-2012, 6:28 AM
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The closure is not in effect yet, it still has to be signed and published in the federal register to be offical. Which will take about two weeks to process.
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Old 07-22-2012, 11:37 AM
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How long will this crap last??
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Old 07-22-2012, 4:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skski2 View Post
The closure is not in effect yet, it still has to be signed and published in the federal register to be offical. Which will take about two weeks to process.
You still have not identified the source of this announcement. Are you sure you're not reporting "ancient" history??

http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/fo/palms...ego.print.html
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Old 07-22-2012, 8:25 PM
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I know this is still not "official" but I have a friend who is a medic for SD Rural Fire and he talked to a Cal Fire captain who was advised by BLM about no shooting until winter for that area....sigh
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Old 07-23-2012, 8:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjg1966 View Post
How long will this crap last??
Do you mean this particular ban? If so I would say till the end of fire season and if we get a good drought going it will be for a while...
I would like proof that it is legal shooting related, not well the house has electrical and no one was standing there with a can of gas so the fire must have been an electrical short...
Not the well we found shell casings so it was from someone shooting.
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  #11  
Old 07-23-2012, 8:21 AM
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I am not surprised. Last two times I have been down to Dulzura:
1) Fire started by someone @ 9AM on a weekend, immediately drew helicopters and fire engines. I was lucky to get out of there with all the inbound traffic, probably a dozen trucks driving down the 1-lane dirt road.
2) Different weekend, a different area recently burned to a crisp immediately next to the shooting spot. The only man made items to survive the blaze would be empty shells.

Now, it's probably not due to someone shooting surplus ammo from his brand new Mosin and causing a spark. It's most likely the shooter or one of his guests tossing a cigarette butt into the grass.

There are plenty of dirt bikes and 4x4s down there as well, but they seem to be busy driving.

Keep your secret spots secret...
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  #12  
Old 07-23-2012, 7:09 PM
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WOW.. I WAS JUST THERE FRIDAY AFTERNOON.! WE PICKED UP OUR TRASH, HOPEFULLY IT WILL STAY OPEN TO RESPONSIBLE SHOOTERS..
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Old 07-27-2012, 12:57 AM
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Any more info on this?
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  #14  
Old 07-27-2012, 12:37 PM
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Unless, he can cite his source, it's FUD!

Probably trolling so he can scare off anybody else that might be going out there this weekend.

Here's the reply that I received when I queried the Palm Springs office last week.

*******************
-----Original Message-----
From: D'Angeles, Camelen [mailto:cdangele@blm.gov]
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 8:50
To: xxx.xxx@navy.mil
Cc: Kotlowski, Scott M; Washington, Nickie L
Subject: RE: palmsprings feedback // BLM closure question

Hi, thank you for contacting us with your question; we appreciate your desire to locate legal and appropriate places for recreational shooting, and we appreciate your asking about fire closures. As far as I am aware at this time, there are no BLM lands in that area under fire season closures or any other unusual or seasonal closures. However, since conditions can change swiftly, and we in the Front Office don’t always get notified of those changes, I am including my Chief Area Ranger and my Fire Management Officer on this email, so that if they know of anything I don’t, they can also respond.

As you are doubtless already aware, shooting is generally permitted on BLM managed lands, as long as such activity is also permitted in that location by State and local laws, and as long as the safety regulations noted below are observed. All federal, state, and county regulations that apply to shooting apply to public lands.

Please keep in mind the following guidelines:

* Just because an area is BLM land, that doesn’t mean it is safe or appropriate to shoot there. Shooting is prohibited within one mile of all campgrounds and developed recreation sites; within 150 yards of any man-made structure, or within 100 yards of any roadway. Since it is prohibited to drive that far off of existing roads, you must be prepared to safely hike to your shooting location. The requirements to be at least this far away from locations where your bullets could be hazardous to others makes many BLM areas unsuitable for shooting.
* When shooting, always select a safe location with a backstop. An area with a hillside directly behind the target is ideal. Avoid popular recreation areas and sensitive wildlife habitats. Do not attach your targets to living plants or place targets up against rocks, plants, or solid objects.
* Always pick up and remove targets, empty shells, plastic shotgun wads and any other debris after you have finished. You can be cited for littering if you leave any debris; for this reason, in the desert region, you are advised not to use clay pigeons as targets. Even the so-called “biodegradable” clay of the targets is considered litter as it remains indefinitely in the dry, fragile landscape of the desert.
* Use of paintball equipment and projectiles is not permitted on BLM-managed lands. The paint is considered similar to the clay used for skeet targets, and you can be cited for defacing public property with it.
* Use of plastic pellets is not permitted on BLM-managed lands.
* Shooting should only take place in areas well away from other concentrations of people and property. Do not shoot in the direction of any road, hiking trail or parking area.
• Vehicles are restricted to designated routes of travel as posted and as shown on BLM maps. Vehicles are prohibited in all wilderness areas.

It is illegal to:
* shoot from or on a public road or highway or from a motor vehicle.
* shoot within 150 yards of a home, barn, outbuilding, motor home, camper, or any inhabited area or roadway.
* use glass bottles, appliances, and other refuse as targets.

There are currently no maps online or in electronic form that show sufficient detail so you could accurately determine appropriate locations for shooting. However, BLM sells maps known as Surface Management Status maps (in this area they are also called Desert Access Guides). While these maps do not show specific locations for shooting, they do show, by color-coding, where BLM lands are, so you can use these maps to make sure you are not on privately owned lands. View an index of the maps at the following URL to determine which maps you want to purchase: http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/info/iac/Northern_Map.html <http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/info/iac/Northern_Map.html> . You may order them by phone from the State Office Public Room in Sacramento, (916) 978-4401. They are also for sale in each of the field offices. They show public and private land ownership, and are at a scale of about one inch to the mile.

Regards,
Cam D’Angeles
Management Assistant
Palm Springs – South Coast Field Office

-----Original Message-----
From: xxx.xxx@navy.mil
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 8:15 AM
To: D'Angeles, Camelen; West, Mary Lou
Subject: palmsprings feedback // BLM closure question

name =
organization =
email =
subject = BLM closure question
FeedbackType = General Question
request_comment = Good morning, I was just wondering if there are any closures expected, or, if an area is closed due to fire danger. I'm considering doing some target shooting in the area south/southwest of Dulzura, CA, and would like it if I could get some information prior to heading out that way.

Thanks in advance for your service and your time.

VR/
username123 =
sentinal = Sentinal
page_referred_from = http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/fo/palmsprings.html
fo = 12
Submit = Send Request
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  #15  
Old 07-28-2012, 11:10 AM
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The fire closure went into effect yesterday for the area. See the Palm Spirngs website for a map and fire closure order.
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Old 07-28-2012, 11:34 AM
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Confirmed:

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medial...%20Closure.pdf
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Old 07-28-2012, 12:59 PM
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:[ now I have to find a new BLM spot for the time being
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Old 07-29-2012, 8:16 AM
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Thanks for the update sofbak. I was heading up there next week. Doesn't seem as if many others are aware of it either.
Once more shooters become aware, I almost feel sorry for the blm as I am sure they will be swamped with calls of protest......ya right...
Knowing that the blm is the border p's lapdog, my suspicious nature tells me they were looking for an excuse to shut off the area to shooting. Wanna bet they take their time to reopoen it once "fire season" is over? Remember Orozco ridge..
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Old 07-29-2012, 9:06 AM
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its not FUD, I went yesterday and talked to a ranger who said closed until after fire season, his guess was December. he also said his boss wants to close it for good, so write your congressman. btw, closed to the public, not just shooting. he called it "unprecedented".
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Old 07-29-2012, 9:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tackdriver View Post
..... my suspicious nature tells me they were looking for an excuse to shut off the area to shooting. Wanna bet they take their time to reopoen it once "fire season" is over? Remember Orozco ridge..
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Originally Posted by kmo43 View Post
its not FUD, I went yesterday and talked to a ranger who said closed until after fire season, his guess was December. he also said his boss wants to close it for good, so write your congressman. btw, closed to the public, not just shooting. he called it "unprecedented".
I'm afraid you guys are probably right here. I have never been up there (was planning on a first trip in August), but have read several posts about the damage done, debris left behind by irresponsible shooters, and a couple of fires in the area (steel jacketed surplus ammo?). I have also taken note of Ranger Funk's proactive stance on protecting a piece of land that he obviously cares about.

Given all of that, it wouldn't surprise me if the area were permanently closed to prevent any more damage. I can't argue with the fire danger and a seaonsal closure, but WRT to stewardship of the land, it appears that a few "bad apples" may have ruined it for everyone.

For now, I would wait and see what happens, and if the closure appears to be permanent, then a CalGunners "campaign" to not only reopen the land, but also to pledge to help the BLM manage and maintain it may be the only hope to get it back. Joining with Funk as an organized group to protect it as his ally would be a lot more productive than arguing with the BLM-especially in consideration of what has already happened.

Something to ponder during the seasonal closure...
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Old 07-29-2012, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofbak View Post
I'm afraid you guys are probably right here. I have never been up there (was planning on a first trip in August), but have read several posts about the damage done, debris left behind by irresponsible shooters, and a couple of fires in the area (steel jacketed surplus ammo?). I have also taken note of Ranger Funk's proactive stance on protecting a piece of land that he obviously cares about.

Given all of that, it wouldn't surprise me if the area were permanently closed to prevent any more damage. I can't argue with the fire danger and a seaonsal closure, but WRT to stewardship of the land, it appears that a few "bad apples" may have ruined it for everyone.

For now, I would wait and see what happens, and if the closure appears to be permanent, then a CalGunners "campaign" to not only reopen the land, but also to pledge to help the BLM manage and maintain it may be the only hope to get it back. Joining with Funk as an organized group to protect it as his ally would be a lot more productive than arguing with the BLM-especially in consideration of what has already happened.

Something to ponder during the seasonal closure...

I second the motion to help BLM maintain and manage the area. Plan a cleanup like at Bee Canyon.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...hlight=cleanup
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Old 07-29-2012, 3:56 PM
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I second the motion to help BLM maintain and manage the area. Plan a cleanup like at Bee Canyon.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...hlight=cleanup

Me and a couple buddies would be up for that. we have learned that shooting on a large tarp makes for much easier clean up especially since you're already cleaning up after others as well...
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Old 07-30-2012, 8:35 AM
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Brass, if you can get blm to answer your questions that would be great (IF not impossible) They are the most inept public service dept I have ever had the displeasure of dealing with.
Plz keep us posted if you're successful.
thx
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Old 07-30-2012, 9:46 AM
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Me and a couple buddies would be up for that. we have learned that shooting on a large tarp makes for much easier clean up especially since you're already cleaning up after others as well...
Me too
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Old 07-30-2012, 12:29 PM
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Please email BLM at their Palm Springs 'Contact Us' site and ask away to see if we can get information. Here are some questions we might ask.

The extension of the previous DFG closure @ Sycamore Cyn. appears to have been superceded and now includes the area around Little Tecate Pk and other federal land around Otay Mountain.

I had difficulty finding information about PERMITTED activities that are still allowed under 43 CFR 9212.2

- Is hiking permitted?

- Is possession of a firearm while engaged in lawful hunting (i.e. per DFG & possession of a hunting license) permitted?

- Is traversing through the closed area(s) to reach areas unaffected by the Fire Prevention Order permitted?

- Does BLM or DFG have a detailed Fire Report or Fire Risk Environmental Assessment on file and available to the public for the area(s) affected by this closure?

- If yes, where is this report or information available and is the authorship and provenance included with the report?

- If no, does the order provide for FOIA requests to data that were used by BLM to support the declaration of the closure order?

- Under what criteria (measureable, time-specific) will the order be lifted or modified?

- By whom and under what process?
A word to the wise and all others on this. You will catch far more flies with honey than you will with vinegar. If you choose to contact the BLM seeking more information on this, please, please be courteous, respectful, and empathic to the overall situation with the land in question.

Whether as an individual or a group, presenting a contentious air or a position of self-righteous indignation over this event will only hurt the shooting community. It is, afterall, their job to manage that land, and theirs are the opinions and the decisions that counts the most. Our challenge is to align ourselves with their concerns, and take an active role as part of the solution.

I was planning on contacting them later this week to see what we as an organized group of calgunners might do with that goal in mind, and if they would even be amenable to considering some volunteer help from our community. If someone gets there before me, that's OK too, just please mind your p' and q's, and don't drop a turd in the punch bowl

And by all means if someone has communication with them, please post that here....

TIA
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Old 07-30-2012, 1:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofbak View Post
A word to the wise and all others on this. You will catch far more flies with honey than you will with vinegar. If you choose to contact the BLM seeking more information on this, please, please be courteous, respectful, and empathic to the overall situation with the land in question.

Whether as an individual or a group, presenting a contentious air or a position of self-righteous indignation over this event will only hurt the shooting community. It is, afterall, their job to manage that land, and theirs are the opinions and the decisions that counts the most. Our challenge is to align ourselves with their concerns, and take an active role as part of the solution.

I was planning on contacting them later this week to see what we as an organized group of calgunners might do with that goal in mind, and if they would even be amenable to considering some volunteer help from our community. If someone gets there before me, that's OK too, just please mind your p' and q's, and don't drop a turd in the punch bowl

And by all means if someone has communication with them, please post that here....

TIA
I Agree. I received a PM from the Acting Chief Law Enforcement Ranger (OP), after I posted my email reply from the Palm Springs Office. He posted here as a courtesy so the closures wouldn't come as a surprise (coincidentally after I queried the office). I too feel a coordinated effort among our collective selves to assist in managing this area would probably go much farther in re-opening it once the fire danger has cleared.

If you'd like more information please contact him directly at:

Scott Kotlowski
Acting Chief Law Enforcement Ranger
Phone: 760-833-7161
Email: skotlows@blm.gov
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Old 07-30-2012, 2:05 PM
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Quote:
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I received a PM from the Acting Chief Law Enforcement Ranger (OP), after I posted my email reply from the Palm Springs Office........
Thank you. That answers a lot of questions....
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Old 07-30-2012, 8:14 PM
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Another shooting area gets closed because of IDIOTS-how long before theres NO MORE SHOOTING AREAS LEFT?
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Old 07-30-2012, 9:20 PM
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Update: I also spoke with Scott Kotlowski and can tell you he's a professional, polite, and willing to provide a great deal of information to you. Basically, the closure is based on a Fire Risk Assessment that is handled by the office of Nikki Washington (1-760-833-7110) and locally by Clay Howe at 1-858-676-0894.
Thanks for the update, Brass. Anybody know where the local office is so we can introduce ourselves to Agent Funk and let him/them know we're on his/their side? I'd like to help any effort to steward the area for ourselves and future users of the land.

In the meantime, I'll be doing my target shooting further east.
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Old 07-30-2012, 9:53 PM
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Default Funk info

PM sent to ecd and brass.
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Old 07-30-2012, 9:55 PM
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....

In the meantime, I'll be doing my target shooting further east.
Almost killed myself with hyperthermia out there in June. Until winter, I'm taking up wax bullets in the garage
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Old 07-30-2012, 10:15 PM
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Almost killed myself with hyperthermia out there in June. Until winter, I'm taking up wax bullets in the garage
The heat is manageable. I get out there at oh-dark-thirty and usually pack up and leave by noon. The 2 hour drive is what kills me.
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Old 07-31-2012, 11:10 AM
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If any of you happen to get into a discussion with BLM personnel about "shooters" leaving trash and posting targets on trees, ask how many citations they've issued over the years regarding these issues.
I brought this up when I was fighting to reopen Kitchen Creek a few years back. Their response?..None...
As usual my Spidy sense tells me they didn't discourage this behavior by enforcement for some not so hidden agenda.....
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:16 PM
sofbak sofbak is online now
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Originally Posted by tackdriver View Post
If any of you happen to get into a discussion with BLM personnel about "shooters" leaving trash and posting targets on trees, ask how many citations they've issued over the years regarding these issues.
I brought this up when I was fighting to reopen Kitchen Creek a few years back. Their response?..None...
As usual my Spidy sense tells me they didn't discourage this behavior by enforcement for some not so hidden agenda.....
I know of at least one shooter who got ticketed for drilling holes in a tree (it wasn't me). But the number of citations issued seems moot, there's no argument that a lot of damage has occured out there, and a lot of debris left behind as well.

As I have tried to point out here, "fighting" to get it reopened is probably not the best approach for a success oriented campaign. How long did it take to get Kitchen Creek reopened after your "fight"?
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Old 07-31-2012, 1:17 PM
tackdriver tackdriver is offline
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Not so moot when you think that the trash and tree shooting (without much enforcement)has been their main issues up till the fire(s) . Not to mention their apparent not checking for steel core ammo being used. One would think they'd stepped up enforcement rather than let it happen and then complain about it.

Kitchen creek was a one man battle. As usual I couldnt get any others who wanted to shoot in the area interested in making an attempt to get it reopened. And if you don't think trying to change the mind set of bureaucrates (sp) isn't a "fight" I suggest you prepare yourself for one when you decide to enter the fray.

Did your contact with BLM say anything about a specific month or rainfall amount that has to occur prior to reopening? I havent seen the area to see how much was burned (anybody?) but I'd think that now, since it has burned, there shouldn't be much to worry catching fire until it grows back.??

thx
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Old 08-01-2012, 9:08 PM
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I was out there almost two weeks ago, right after the burn. Fire marshall came out and tested ammo with a magnet. We had already seen the charred wood from something or other before he arrived. We showed it to him to let him know it wasn't us, as it was cold. He told us that he had actually seen someone shooting tannerite at our shooting site, "right in front of him." For whatever that's worth. Went out today and everything was locked up and/or posted.

Carrizo creek is much more heavily posted on the East side too, so much so, that it seems basically shut down completely.

Ended up at P2K today to do some sighting in...

Last edited by sunborder; 08-01-2012 at 9:11 PM..
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Old 08-01-2012, 10:58 PM
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I was out there almost two weeks ago, right after the burn. Fire marshall came out and tested ammo with a magnet. We had already seen the charred wood from something or other before he arrived. We showed it to him to let him know it wasn't us, as it was cold. He told us that he had actually seen someone shooting tannerite at our shooting site, "right in front of him." For whatever that's worth. Went out today and everything was locked up and/or posted.

Carrizo creek is much more heavily posted on the East side too, so much so, that it seems basically shut down completely.

Ended up at P2K today to do some sighting in...
Well, at least we got to go once before the closure. I had a freaking blast.

Trying to find a good place to shoot seems so frustrating sometimes. Was really looking forward to this weekend, too.

Outdoor ranges seem to be a dying breed.
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:22 AM
BucDan BucDan is online now
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Originally Posted by StormRaven View Post
Well, at least we got to go once before the closure. I had a freaking blast.

Trying to find a good place to shoot seems so frustrating sometimes. Was really looking forward to this weekend, too.

Outdoor ranges seem to be a dying breed.
Time to find a new spot.

Last edited by BucDan; 08-04-2012 at 1:55 PM..
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Old 08-04-2012, 1:14 PM
sofbak sofbak is online now
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Only place now is the desert. About a 2 hour drive to find a nice spot away from civilization.
Would you please, please STFU about public acces shooting locations!!!

It is a know fact here that when a location is identified in a public forum such as this, it is only a matter of time before irresponsilbe web surfers find it, and then what happens?

A case in point is the current closures in Dulzura/Marron Valley/Sycmamore canyon. In november of 2010, some MORON published directions to these locations, and thus the decline and subsequent CLOSURE of the area was set in motion. Here is it right here:

[URL="http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=356001&highlight=%28619%29+468-3536"]http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=356001&highlight=%28619%29+468-3536[

So now what? Since this area has been closed, do think it's possible that these trash-tards might start caravaning out to ### ##. looking for the next spot to trash for their personal enjoyment and total disregard of others? How about this **** ****** location? Think people will be looking for that as well?

If you have a spot:

1. Use it with good stewardship so that others who know can enjoy it also.
2. Share it with trusted friends with similar qualities of responsibility
3. DO NOT, DO NOT publish any information about it in a publicly accessed internet forum!!!!!


rant off

Last edited by sofbak; 08-06-2012 at 8:11 AM..
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Old 08-04-2012, 1:47 PM
BucDan BucDan is online now
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... Didn't think giving a time amount would result to giving away a specific location. I'm pretty much an advocate myself for Marron Valley and saving secrets bro.

Who said anything about Shell Canyon?

I've edited it to remove any leads then.

Last edited by BucDan; 08-04-2012 at 1:55 PM..
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