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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 05-28-2007, 11:58 AM
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Default Bolt Action AR15 Uppers...

So here is what I'm thinking....BOLT ACTION

I've been looking at the web to see what is out there for us in bolt action AR15 uppers and I am hoping that there are more around. I think that most are considered "custom" but I don't understand why they aren't more available and popular.



I have always liked shooting accurate, long distance match rifles and I know of a few makers of these uppers, (most are gas operated) but when you look at a rifle like the Tubb2000 and see how much they have in common with the AR design, I think that more should be done in this direction.



The Tubb2000 uses a rotating bolt design but the neat thing about the AR15 with a bolt handle is that working the action is a straight back pull/push cycle, much like a Fortner action that are on Anschutz Biathlon rifles.

I have one question,

If the gas system is turned off by blocking the gas at the gas block, like can be done by a JP Enterprises Gas block, (uses a set screw, needs a tool) then you are not shooting a semi-automatic. Could these be attached to a OLL, legally with a pistol grip, detachable mag, etc.?

I think YES!





I have registered AR's and can always buy something like these uppers now, without any problems, but would like to use these uppers on a OLL on occasion. I think that the set screw is the solution when swapping from my registered lower to my OLL, just turn off the gas.

Here are some links:

http://www.medeshafirearms.com/upper_assemblies.htm


http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/uppers-match.htm

I haven't bought anything yet, and on top of that I'm Left-handed, so I want to make sure that I see everything around before buying.

I would sure like to know what else is around, please let me know.

Last edited by Mnort10x; 05-28-2007 at 5:27 PM..
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Old 05-28-2007, 12:51 PM
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Mnort10x,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mnort10x View Post
...If the gas system is turned off by blocking the gas at the gas block, like can be done by a JP Enterprises Gas block, (uses a set screw, needs a tool) then you are not shooting a semi-automatic. Could these be attached to a OLL, legally with a pistol grip, detachable mag, etc.?

...{snip}...

I have registered AR's ... but would like to use these uppers on a OLL on occasion. I think that the set screw is the solution when swapping from my registered lower to my OLL, just turn off the gas.
I don't think, esp given caution and all the politics involved here, that we wanna do things quite that easily.

The 'tool' requirement is only expressly mentioned in 11 CCR 5469(a) regulatory code as relating to matters of what are or are not detachable magazines. The concept of tool removability may have less relevance elsewhere. The rest of our concerns should be thought of in constructive possession terms, because they are not necessarily shaped by "tool" vs. "manual" removal/exchange concerns.

Let's consider my prime example of a nonsemiauto rifle based on a semiauto pattern - a FAL clone (but not a named FAL) with a closable G/L gas valve. I would also highly highly higly recommend that, besides gas valve closure, the gas piston is removed from rifle [and not possessed/transported nearby (just so you smell good legally)].

I think such concepts should be similarly applicable here on OLL Stoner-based rifle: there should be no gas tube (or piston system, since they're out there now) mounted; gas port/block should be blocked, shut off, or nonexistent. The jury is out, so to speak, on whether 'twisting a knob' is a legal construction (furthermore, if rifle were seized and in evidence, would you wanna bet your arse on whether or not the gas valve got 'adjusted'?)

This way, such manual-cycled rifles cannot rationally be considered semiauto rifles, as a part (or parts) must be constructively added for it to attain semiauto status. This prevents any argument that it's a semiauto rifle that's just operating in an alternate mode.

As a general comment about these matters, I am continually amazed that some folks wanna be cheap and take easy ways out (i.e, not having a separate upper and just shutting off a valve). It makes things too easy to 'go sideways' if such a rifle ends up in an evidence locker - SJPD already tried to remove a fixed magazine with a sledgehammer!. And we've already infuriated the powers that be, so it's well-advised we stay on the bright side of the line.
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Last edited by bwiese; 05-28-2007 at 12:55 PM..
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Old 05-28-2007, 1:09 PM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Mnort10x,



I don't think, esp given caution and all the politics involved here, that we wanna do things quite that easily.

The 'tool' requirement is only expressly mentioned in 11 CCR 5469(a) regulatory code as relating to matters of what are or are not detachable magazines. The concept of tool removability may have less relevance elsewhere. The rest of our concerns should be thought of in constructive possession terms, because they are not necessarily shaped by "tool" vs. "manual" removal/exchange concerns.

Let's consider my prime example of a nonsemiauto rifle based on a semiauto pattern - a FAL clone (but not a named FAL) with a closable G/L gas valve. I would also highly highly higly recommend that, besides gas valve closure, the gas piston is removed from rifle [and not possessed/transported nearby (just so you smell good legally)].

I think such concepts should be similarly applicable here on OLL Stoner-based rifle: there should be no gas tube (or piston system, since they're out there now) mounted; gas port/block should be blocked, shut off, or nonexistent. The jury is out, so to speak, on whether 'twisting a knob' is a legal construction (furthermore, if rifle were seized and in evidence, would you wanna bet your arse on whether or not the gas valve got 'adjusted'?)

This way, such manual-cycled rifles cannot rationally be considered semiauto rifles, as a part (or parts) must be constructively added for it to attain semiauto status. This prevents any argument that it's a semiauto rifle that's just operating in an alternate mode.

As a general comment about these matters, I am continually amazed that some folks wanna be cheap and take easy ways out (i.e, not having a separate upper and just shutting off a valve). It makes things too easy to 'go sideways' if such a rifle ends up in an evidence locker - SJPD already tried to remove a fixed magazine with a sledgehammer!. And we've already infuriated the powers that be, so it's well-advised we stay on the bright side of the line.

Bill,

With a OLL without a buffer and spring (removed) because cycling the bolt carrier would be easer, there would be no semi-auto possible. Then you would have a bolt only action. What do you think?
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Old 05-28-2007, 2:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Mnort10x,

As a general comment about these matters, I am continually amazed that some folks wanna be cheap and take easy ways out (i.e, not having a separate upper and just shutting off a valve). It makes things too easy to 'go sideways' if such a rifle ends up in an evidence locker - SJPD already tried to remove a fixed magazine with a sledgehammer!. And we've already infuriated the powers that be, so it's well-advised we stay on the bright side of the line.
I guess I didn't make myself clear, I don't want to just be able to turn off the gas system, I am not looking for an easer way out, but I am sure that you can see how well an AR style rifle is to shoot. The Tubb2000 is a bolt action version of the design. But at $3000.00+ I would like one using less of my hard earned money and more ingenuity. The lower platform is the perfect building block for such a rifle. I could create a bolt upper without a gas tube, and that would never be mistaken for a semi-auto upper, correct? I'm just also trying to see how I could use a "ready made, custom" bolt upper like I've shown on both a registered lower and an OLL (I have a Jewell trigger in a Star-15, that I'd like to use) and regarding the lower, as you've mentioned, removing the buffer and spring, to me, makes the rifle incapable of being used as a semi-auto without further construction. The set screw in the gas block just makes sure I have a shoulder after shooting OLL WITHOUT a buffer and spring ("How did you brake your shoulder?" )
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Old 05-28-2007, 2:05 PM
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have ar15barrels.com make a barrel without a gas port.
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Old 05-28-2007, 2:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mnort10x View Post
Bill,
With a OLL without a buffer and spring (removed) because cycling the bolt carrier would be easer, there would be no semi-auto possible. Then you would have a bolt only action. What do you think?
That's a start, perhaps. I'd still me more comfortable myself with a true gas-system-free upper. I do think that's easier to explain if questions arose.

Semiauto status is more likely more immediately defined by existence of a gas or system than a presence of a buffer/spring (esp as there are AR designs that do not have these - like Oly Arms and ZM Weapons).

If you have a situtation where you're having to go in this level of detail, you've prob initially lost the game and should be talking to a lawyer anyway.

I'm also betting it'd be a bit easier, if said rifle were in a police evidence locker, for a buffer/spring to 'accidentally' rapidly be installed instead of a gas tube, roll pin, possible FS/GB changeover, etc.
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Last edited by bwiese; 05-28-2007 at 2:17 PM..
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Old 05-28-2007, 2:13 PM
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Originally Posted by !@#$ View Post
have ar15barrels.com make a barrel without a gas port.
Or, use a regular bbl and have the front sight base gas tube opening threaded for a hex setscrew (that's locktited in place)

That way your upper could be moved into semiauto usage with some measure of ease.
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Old 05-28-2007, 2:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Mnort10x View Post
I guess I didn't make myself clear, I don't want to just be able to turn off the gas system, I am not looking for an easer way out,
This was said less for your benefit, you seem to be aware of things, than several other prior repeated cycles of variants of this question - "how close can I go".

Quote:
but I am sure that you can see how well an AR style rifle is to shoot.
Hahaha, yeah, I own 7 reg'd ARs (incl AR10) + 4 OLLs to be built.

Just got a CMMG 18" SPR upper I can't wait to try.


Quote:
The lower platform is the perfect building block for such a rifle.
Absolutely. And I even fully expect to see 22LR (rimfire) full-house ARs with all evil features being sold in stores. I think plans are actually going in place w/one vendor...


Quote:
I could create a bolt upper without a gas tube, and that
would never be mistaken for a semi-auto upper, correct?
Of course. To be 'cleaner than Caesar's wife' you might wanna use a bolt without a gas key installed, as well.

The front sight/gas block would of course need to be shut off, blocked, etc. somehow as gas-in-you-face is not fun. (This avoids having to find a bbl without a gas port.)

You had mentioned that you could find a valved gas block or the like, and my initial commentary was that you should not just shut off the valve to remove semiauto status, but to get rid of the gas tube (or gas piston where applicable).

All I was saying is that attaining nonsemiauto status should be significantly more than just a valve adjustment, and that some parts that clearly define semiauto stuats being removed can only help make life easier.


Quote:
removing the buffer and spring, to me, makes the rifle incapable of being used as a semi-auto without further construction.
Probably so. However, these elements' presence/absence are not necessarily 100% defining elements of semiauto status - whereas gas return, piston action or blowback status (depending on caliber/architecture) would be.

Because of LA FAL case of last year - about which we know not that much - we want to clearly distinguish a rationally operating rifle from a broken rifle.
(This LA dude removed the bolt/carrier assy from his illegally acquired FAL clone, thinking that nonoperational = non assault weapon.)
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Old 05-28-2007, 2:47 PM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Of course. To be 'cleaner than Caesar's wife' you might wanna use a bolt without a gas key installed, as well.
I aggree - I was planning for a bolt carrier without key swap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
The front sight/gas block would of course need to be shut off, blocked, etc. somehow as gas-in-you-face is not fun. (This avoids having to find a bbl without a gas port.)

You had mentioned that you could find a valved gas block or the like, and my initial commentary was that you should not just shut off the valve to remove semiauto status, but to get rid of the gas tube (or gas piston where applicable).
For argument I even think that leaving gas tube on with the gas off would
be legal given no key on bolt carrier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
All I was saying is that attaining nonsemiauto status should be significantly more than just a valve adjustment, and that some parts that clearly define semiauto stuats being removed can only help make life easier.

Probably so. However, these elements' presence/absence are not necessarily 100% defining elements of semiauto status - whereas gas return, piston action or blowback status (depending on caliber/architecture) would be.
So by using a 1) keyless bolt carrier, 2) no buffer and spring and 3) shutting off the gas at the gas block, bolt action only OLL, Right?
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Old 05-28-2007, 3:56 PM
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For argument I even think that leaving gas tube on with the gas off would
be legal given no key on bolt carrier.
Yes. But my point is "substantial visible differentiation".

The idea is to have something readily apparent as nonsemiauto in a traffic stop.

The idea is to not have to win a case in court.

Quote:
So by using a 1) keyless bolt carrier, 2) no buffer and spring and 3) shutting off the gas at the gas block, bolt action only OLL, Right?
Well, that is certainly a readilydefendable case.

But I again implore you to not have a gas tube, period - if you're gonna have a full features suite. (It's irrelevant, of course, if you have a MonsterMan grip or U15 stock and no 'evil features', or with a fixed nondetachable 10rd magazine, since both these configurations are allowable in semiauto form.)
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Old 05-28-2007, 4:14 PM
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Just buy a barrel with no gas bleed hole in it. You wouldn't want that with a bolt gun anyway.
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Old 05-28-2007, 5:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Yes. But my point is "substantial visible differentiation".

The idea is to have something readily apparent as nonsemiauto in a traffic stop.
I see your point, but it can't always be achieved.

An example:

For a traffic stop and if it came to showing a rifle, lets say the handguard covered the gas tube area and gas block completely, (some do, I have one on a registered Colt), then there is no "substantial visible differentiation".

In this scenario I now have to explain to the officer that this is not a semiauto and it means opening the upper. This rifle's bolt carrier has no key, no buffer and spring, and no gas tube. He says ether "Still looks like an AR." or he knows his stuff and says, "Get that tail light fixed, have a nice day."

I imagine that any rifle that "Still looks like an AR" rifle involved in a "Traffic Stop" that goes beyond just that would be taken into custody.

Then it would be handed over to "experts" that would have to evaluate its function. Beyond adding parts to the above example, there is no way to construed anything other than a bolt action rifle.

Is the gas tube the test? Or is it the key and tube? The buffer, key and tube?

Were beyond actually being an assembled and functioning semi-automatic rifle, is the line drawn on what makes a rifle one?

I'm still trying to assemble a bolt gun using the OLL and make it legal an accurate. (Good idea to restate my goal now and again )




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Old 05-28-2007, 5:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mnort10x View Post
I see your point, but it can't always be achieved.
True but you don't have to leave a useless item attached that adds confusion about semiauto status...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnort10x
An example: For a traffic stop and if it came to showing a rifle, lets say the handguard covered the gas tube area and gas block completely, (some do, I have one on a registered Colt), then there is no "substantial visible differentiation".
True in that area. However, racking it would reveal a gas tube protrusion into the upper receiver in the area it'd couple to the bolt gas key.

Quote:
I imagine that any rifle that "Still looks like an AR" rifle involved in a "Traffic Stop" that goes beyond just that would be taken into custody.
There have now been quite a few traffic stops where Harrott and features list have been explained and folks have driven on their merry way.

Some cops, true, may not know about Harrott and think an AR is an AR is an AR.


Quote:
Where beyond actually being an assembled and functioning semi-automatic rifle, is the line drawn on what makes a rifle one?
Elimination of the gas system (gas tube and or piston, some kind of block for gas port and lack of gas key) would IHMO the prime determiner of semiauto status. Other parts are less likely.



Quote:
I'm still trying to assemble a bolt gun using the OLL and make it legal an accurate. (Good idea to restate my goal now and again )
Then get a damned upper that without gas tube, a closed gas block or non-tapped barrel, and a carrier without key and call it a day.
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Old 05-28-2007, 5:22 PM
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Quote:
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Then get a damned upper ...
Thats what this thread is about but I'm still trying to look for info on what bolt uppers are out there.
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Old 05-28-2007, 5:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mnort10x View Post
Thats what this thread is about but I'm still trying to look for info on what bolt uppers are out there.

(1) Find any AR upper vendor with higher end bbls (Randall: ar15barrels.com)
(2) Ask if you can get a bbl without a gas port - such vendors can do this.
(3) Mount a front sight base as appropriate - or not.
(4) Don't worry about gas tube/gas block as unneeded.


BTW I was not thinking of cocking when I mentioned removing the gas key from bolt carrier. If you're gonna cock with regular AR charging handle you will need at least a partial key on the bolt carrier. Perhaps fill key nozzle with resin/lead, etc. for appearances' sake.

There are "side charging" upper receivers (Fulton Armory & others) that instead of having a traditional charging handle, use an upper receiver with a different cutout in combination with redesigned side knob charging handle. These will work with std. AR bolt carriers/keys.

Otherwise get in touch with Scott Medesha if you want a fancy side-handled bolt.

An Olympic Arms British distributor sells some bolt crap over in England, and you might be able to find something linked from that as well.
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