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  #41  
Old 06-20-2012, 8:37 PM
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Evolve, or become extinct, like the dinosaurs...
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  #42  
Old 06-20-2012, 8:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishJoe3 View Post
I found it! I was reading through the officer down memorial (www.odmp.org) once and I stumbled across this little bio.

Can you imagine the shockwaves that would result if this perimeter happened in the year 2012?

Constable Rasmus L. Rasmussen, Petaluma Police Dept

End of Watch: Wednesday, April 20, 1927

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Failla then retreated to his house on Cherry Street and barricaded himself inside. Constable Rasmussen, Sheriff Douglas Bills and several deputies, as well as Petaluma Police Chief Mike Flohr and his men surrounded the house. The local National Guard Machine Gun Detail even got involved, firing bursts of machine gun rounds at the house. At one point, an airplane was sent to San Francisco to pick up a hand grenade and four tear gas bombs from the San Francisco Police Department. During the standoff, Constable Rasmussen was shot in the head by John Failla.
Woah, a Hand grenade? I wonder how that would have turned out. I wish I could pick up the phone and requisition an HG.
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  #43  
Old 06-20-2012, 9:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
That's why people should stop comparing LE to military combat operations. You do that here and not only will you lose your job, you will go to prison.

I had a friend on a SWAT entry team confront two suspects, both armed an firing, in a stairwell. They were on the top, he was on the bottom. He fired a full mag from an MP-5 as he backed out. It turns out, 29 of 30 rounds were hits. Bad guys were wear wearing body armor and although the body hits slowed them down, they didn't stop until each got a head shot.

Someone please tell him that LE doesn't need full auto.....


And I am NOT criticizing military tactics and training. LE and combat operations are different, as they should be.
I wasn't comparing the two. You think I don't know that? Believe me, I know the difference. Growing up my Dad was with SJPD until he retired. That situation was unique. I'm glad your buddy made it out okay. Where was his backup? That instance doesn't mean you NEED something like FA capabilities on RIFLES though. That's like saying citizens should be able to carry FA because you never know what will happen. It's just not practical. I'm not going to change anything, I get that. I'm also not trying to get into a flame war, so don't take it as that. I just believe FA rifles are impractical. If you want FA in a rifle cartridge you have belt fed weapons for that. FA SMGs are great, especially because they are DESIGNED for CQB just as what your buddy experienced. Much easier to control FA fire with a pistol cartridge than FA with a rifle cartridge.

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Originally Posted by Notorious View Post
Yep, you put a round into anyone that is down and no longer a threat, you are going to prison. Heck, even in military operations, that is being prosecuted now. There is one case going on where a Marine is being court martialed for shooting a terrorist who was proned but was reaching for something the Marine thought was a grenade so the Marine fired more rounds into the prone body until he stopped moving. Bad luck for the Marine that there was a journalist there filming it and turned in the film, claiming the Marine was executing people.

In short, I can see where in very specific and limited circumstances that LE will have to lay down suppressive fire, but not for 99.5382584309% of the engagements.
Believe me, I know. That was back in '03 or '04 right? I remember the video. Only reason why anything bad came from that was because there was a journalist filming and he twisted the story around. So really, the military is not shunning from those tactics in any shape or form. As I said, when we first walk up on an objective we double tap their heads. Once we PASS a body, we cannot go back and shoot again. Only on the first pass can we fire.

There's always a chance something crazy will happen (North Hollywood Shootout) but my argument was never against just LE having FA rifles (refer to my original post). I don't believe FA rifles are practical regardless of who you are or what you do but LE have less "leverage" in my view of needing FA rifles compared to the military because how different their tasks are.
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  #44  
Old 06-20-2012, 9:33 PM
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Most Departments in my area are all full auto. When I went to SWAT school, out of approx 10 agencies there my Dept was the only one that didnt have full auto.
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  #45  
Old 06-20-2012, 10:34 PM
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Actually, I am in full agreement with you, Tac. My Ranger buddy does the same thing, he puts one under the chin of a downed tango everytime he walks past one just to be sure.
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  #46  
Old 06-20-2012, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba Steve33 View Post
I wasn't comparing the two. You think I don't know that? Believe me, I know the difference. Growing up my Dad was with SJPD until he retired. That situation was unique. I'm glad your buddy made it out okay. Where was his backup? That instance doesn't mean you NEED something like FA capabilities on RIFLES though. That's like saying citizens should be able to carry FA because you never know what will happen. It's just not practical. I'm not going to change anything, I get that. I'm also not trying to get into a flame war, so don't take it as that. I just believe FA rifles are impractical. If you want FA in a rifle cartridge you have belt fed weapons for that. FA SMGs are great, especially because they are DESIGNED for CQB just as what your buddy experienced. Much easier to control FA fire with a pistol cartridge than FA with a rifle cartridge.

.
Steve,

I'm not trying to flame you. My reference was for others who are always trying to compare LE with military, when their missions are so totally different. I agree that for most situations, F/A is impractical for LE, especially in a rifle cartridge. But, the option should be available in case needed, and trained with to ensure the mission goes as planned.

In my buddies incident, it was a narrow stairwell and the #2 guy couldn't get up to help. The whole incident lasted just a few seconds from start to finish.
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  #47  
Old 06-21-2012, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
Steve,

I'm not trying to flame you. My reference was for others who are always trying to compare LE with military, when their missions are so totally different. I agree that for most situations, F/A is impractical for LE, especially in a rifle cartridge. But, the option should be available in case needed, and trained with to ensure the mission goes as planned.

In my buddies incident, it was a narrow stairwell and the #2 guy couldn't get up to help. The whole incident lasted just a few seconds from start to finish.
I didn't take it as that and sorry if my post came off in any negative way. Reading it again I can see if you took it as that and want to say it wasn't intended. I hate not being able to tell tone through text.

I'm not really against LE having fully automatic rifles because I know they will be trained with them but to me it's just not practical when you can have 3 round burst. SMGs I'm all for. They are awesome. I've fired both the MP7 and Kriss FA. Beautiful weapons. I guess I just don't really see the NEED for a FA rifle when you're firing it in bursts anyway, which the 3 round burst does flawlessly.
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  #48  
Old 06-21-2012, 7:28 AM
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Our local SWAT has AR's that are full auto capable but there's been a screw put in place to block the selector from going into the 3 round burst position.

A lot of bay area agencies I've been to schools with had 10.5" FA AR's, seemed to be a pretty good shift in that direction rather than have sub guns and full size AR's.

Also, as a side note I met an El Dorado County guy who had a HK UMP .45 in FA. It was actually ridiculously heavy, but fun to shoot none the less.

Another side note, now that I remember, is I went to a school in central CA years ago where an agency had a glock 18, which they didnt issue at all but treated it like a tax payer funded toy for their guys on range day. While I may frown at this I certainly took advantage and it was indeed quite fun to shoot.
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  #49  
Old 06-21-2012, 7:47 AM
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we have select fire on our AR but the only time ive use full auto is at the range
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  #50  
Old 06-21-2012, 8:34 PM
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I cannot shake the mental image I have of some guy who has never worked in law enforcement and perceives zombies as his biggest threat, thinking he knows what LE personnel need or don't need to do their jobs.
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  #51  
Old 06-21-2012, 8:43 PM
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I cannot shake the mental image I have of some guy who has never worked in law enforcement and perceives zombies as his biggest threat, thinking he knows what LE personnel need or don't need to do their jobs.
This.

Its like me telling a carpenter what he needs to do his job because I have a black&decker drill.
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  #52  
Old 06-22-2012, 12:05 AM
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I tell plumbers how to fix my toilet all the time because I have a can of Mr. Clean.
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  #53  
Old 06-22-2012, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ricigliano View Post
I cannot shake the mental image I have of some guy who has never worked in law enforcement and perceives zombies as his biggest threat, thinking he knows what LE personnel need or don't need to do their jobs.
Can I get an AMEN!
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  #54  
Old 06-22-2012, 8:39 AM
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I tell plumbers how to fix my toilet all the time because I have a can of Mr. Clean.
Now that's just crazy talk, everybody knows Mr. Clean can't fix toilets. Pffffft.
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  #55  
Old 06-22-2012, 8:43 AM
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Now that's just crazy talk, everybody knows Mr. Clean can't fix toilets. Pffffft.
Maybe Mr. Clean can't fix toilets but owning a can of it gives me sufficient expertise and knowledge to tell plumbers how to do their jobs.
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  #56  
Old 06-22-2012, 8:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ricigliano View Post
I cannot shake the mental image I have of some guy who has never worked in law enforcement and perceives zombies as his biggest threat, thinking he knows what LE personnel need or don't need to do their jobs.
Bravo!!!!
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  #57  
Old 06-22-2012, 8:59 AM
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If some murderous dirt bag is hiding behind a door or soft cover wouldn't a FA sbr be useful to suppress the threat ? Of course this would be in hands of someone who trains on the range alot. Learning how to use the trigger to control FA fire. I think if you hand the average person a M16 on full auto they would just dump the entire mag with no accuracy. But a trained LEO with a good running system, would be ideal in todays world.
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  #58  
Old 06-22-2012, 9:00 AM
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Amen brother Ron!
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  #59  
Old 06-22-2012, 9:17 AM
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Originally Posted by yzernie View Post
I guess all my live fire training with said weapon on tactical and dynamic entries was a dream then.
Mine too I guess...LOL

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Originally Posted by Scuba Steve33 View Post
I totally understand that and have fired FA rifles. When used in controlled bursts they can be handled. The thing is, if you're firing it in two or three round bursts to keep rounds on target there is no need for FA capabilities when you can have 3 round burst.
you have to understand that a lot of departments and tactical units don't have the funding to go out and buy brand new M4's with 3 rnd burst. They have old military surplus lowers with safe/semi/full that have maybe been outfitted with new uppers....therefore they train in trigger control and firing controlled 2-3 rnd burst in full auto. For my agency this is standard training. A course of fire for example might be a failure drill of 2-3 rnds center mass followed by 2 rnds to the head from 7 yds in full auto. 99.9% of the time they are shot in semi auto though. All of SWAT and some other specialized unit guns are full auto.....all the patrol rifles are semi only. Our MP-5's are a mix of the different triggers that are offered on the MP5A2/A3/A4. Some are S/E/F and some have the 4 position selector. We also have a couple of MP5SD's for dispatching animals and street lights.
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Old 06-22-2012, 8:54 PM
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Can I get an AMEN!
image.jpg
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  #61  
Old 06-22-2012, 11:29 PM
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I (we) were told to avoid the 2/3 shot burst selector switch full autos. It was more complicated and more things could go wrong. Training was the key and not the selector switch. As it turned out the instructors/manufacturers (yes....the manufacturers) were correct.
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  #62  
Old 06-23-2012, 9:16 PM
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Originally Posted by NOTARPilot View Post
Mine too I guess...LOL



you have to understand that a lot of departments and tactical units don't have the funding to go out and buy brand new M4's with 3 rnd burst. They have old military surplus lowers with safe/semi/full that have maybe been outfitted with new uppers....therefore they train in trigger control and firing controlled 2-3 rnd burst in full auto. For my agency this is standard training. A course of fire for example might be a failure drill of 2-3 rnds center mass followed by 2 rnds to the head from 7 yds in full auto. 99.9% of the time they are shot in semi auto though. All of SWAT and some other specialized unit guns are full auto.....all the patrol rifles are semi only. Our MP-5's are a mix of the different triggers that are offered on the MP5A2/A3/A4. Some are S/E/F and some have the 4 position selector. We also have a couple of MP5SD's for dispatching animals and street lights.
It makes sense to borrow rifles from DRMO, or DoD and just use the full auto lower and put whatever the upper the agency wants. Since they are getting them for free, it's way more cost effective than buying a new M4a1 from Colt at MSRP.
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  #63  
Old 06-25-2012, 7:17 PM
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We use the Colt M4A1 and UMP40 both of which are full auto.
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  #64  
Old 06-29-2012, 4:08 PM
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The department I used to work for (PD in SoCal) had surplus Vietnam era M16A1's issued to the SWAT team, and PRO (Primary Response Officer) members. We also had full auto MP5s that I had the opportunity to fire at the range (once...) but the RO never allowed me to go full auto.
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  #65  
Old 06-29-2012, 6:56 PM
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I'm on SWAT and have a select fire (auto) 11" M4 and select fire MP5's. There are several strings of auto firing in bursts on our qual, however, I haven't ever really needed it for anything else.
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  #66  
Old 07-01-2012, 3:40 AM
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Same as Hitman, FA from 10 yards and in. Semi after that. Most of the guys I work with prefer semi anyway. The MP5 is nails from this range and closer, but gets a little squirrelly beyond 10.
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  #67  
Old 07-01-2012, 7:35 AM
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Maybe with all the federal grant money LE departments get (which seems to be endless), you guys could hook up with this bossman and learn how to smoke live bodies with a (1) semi-auto M4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUmpl4JnDdA

In my combat experience, such select-fire modes hinder accuracy, are rarely used, and are plagued by inconsistent trigger pull.
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