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  #1  
Old 06-19-2012, 11:55 AM
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Default SWAT AR-15's full auto?

I've never seen one, wanted to know if SWAT teams in CA actually use ARs with a full-auto setting.
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Old 06-19-2012, 12:27 PM
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Its probably department by department

I know they can have class 3 stuff like suppressors so I would assume full auto is capable of being had
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Old 06-19-2012, 12:59 PM
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Some departments have class 3 stuff, an officer at Davis PD told me that they can get suppressors if they requisition them, but idk about full auto stuff. Personally I don't see why police forces would need full auto weapons, cause firing in full auto isn't accurate
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Old 06-19-2012, 1:12 PM
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San Jose MERGE, Campbell SWAT, Santa Clara PD SRT, Sunnyvale Department of Public Safety SWAT, etc. *all* have select fire weapons; AR types and MP-5s exclusively as far as I know. Though back in the 90's Campbell PD's Chief had an SBR Steyr AUG for his on-duty use that converted to lefty use, but if I recall that was semi-auto only.
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Old 06-19-2012, 1:19 PM
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had an uncle that worked for swat in stockton the mp5s and m4s were select fire
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Old 06-19-2012, 2:55 PM
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Select fire (full-auto capable) rifles- yes.

Use of full auto during tactical incidents- that's a different story.
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Old 06-19-2012, 3:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixtus View Post
I've never seen one, wanted to know if SWAT teams in CA actually use ARs with a full-auto setting.
Visually, on the exterior at a glance, you will notice very little difference from a standard AR config. One of the external differences is the third pin that holds the auto sear. And the receiver may have the FA marking for the selector, though some department guns, converted from semi lowers, may not have the FA or burst marked on the lower.

Yes, many departments SRT’s have MP5's, AR variant's and different types of 308 Semi's (SCARS’s, 91’s) with FA capability’s (agency owned). And yes of course supressors.

Last edited by Mesa Defense; 06-19-2012 at 3:48 PM..
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Old 06-19-2012, 3:52 PM
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Yes they are but often they dont even use it.

I have seen CHP M16 Military buybacks that they just swap semi auto AR-15 FCG's in and leave the third hole empty.
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Old 06-19-2012, 5:03 PM
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I never was on our swat team but I think we had MP5s.

I do know in our armory we have quite a few full auto...a 92F full auto, Thompson 45 and a few others I can't remember but these are not used in the line of duty.
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Old 06-19-2012, 5:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Woodford View Post
I never was on our swat team but I think we had MP5s.

I do know in our armory we have quite a few full auto...a 92F full auto, Thompson 45 and a few others I can't remember but these are not used in the line of duty.
Why would there be a thompson in a police armory? I am assuming confiscated guns would be stored somewhere else so the only reason I could think of as to why it would be there is if its been there since the 40's... sorry for threadjacking
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Old 06-19-2012, 5:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Muscles Glasses View Post
Why would there be a thompson in a police armory? I am assuming confiscated guns would be stored somewhere else so the only reason I could think of as to why it would be there is if its been there since the 40's... sorry for threadjacking
Back in the 50's & 60's the feds would give police departments military surplus weapons for "civil defense" purposes. Some were used, some just gathered dust in a weapons locker. One of the departments I was with had some old USMC Reisings with CD stickers on them. Nobody ever shot them, they were more of a conversation piece.
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Old 06-19-2012, 6:14 PM
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Originally Posted by 5shot View Post
Back in the 50's & 60's the feds would give police departments military surplus weapons for "civil defense" purposes. Some were used, some just gathered dust in a weapons locker. One of the departments I was with had some old USMC Reisings with CD stickers on them. Nobody ever shot them, they were more of a conversation piece.
But but but.....I thought cops with full auto was just a recent thing, y'know, the militarization of law enforcement???

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  #13  
Old 06-19-2012, 6:23 PM
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LASD SEB uses MP5's and HK416's that have F/A capability. The central armory still has several F/A Thompsons left over from the age of Prohibition and some WWII Risings and a BAR. They seldom come out of the armory, usually for some shooting demo.

Before the AR platform became popular, the rural patrol units carried Winchester Model 94's in .30-30. There was one in the armory that was documented to be over 100 years old. I think it is in a museum now.
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  #14  
Old 06-19-2012, 6:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muscles Glasses View Post
Why would there be a thompson in a police armory? I am assuming confiscated guns would be stored somewhere else so the only reason I could think of as to why it would be there is if its been there since the 40's... sorry for threadjacking
Years ago when I worked for a PD (that shall go nameless) we had quiet a few select fire weapons. We had dozens of surplus M-16A1's, 30 or so MP-5's for the SWAT folks, then an odd assortment of Uzi's, Thompson SMG's, Mac 10's, and a number of homemade full autos, etc... I never knew how we acquired the misc weapons, but I suspect most of them were seized as a result of some sort investigation. Most of the LE rangemasters are "gun nuts" and tend to acquire or retain weapons that caught their eye. I can tell you it is a blast to fire some of those weapons. My two favorites are the MP-5 and Thompson 1928! The Mac 10's were pieces of crap and I would never fire a homemade conversion for fear of a catastrophic incident. At the very least it is a good idea to have officers familiar with a wide variety of firearms (including select fire) so that they can render them safe when encountered in the field.

Hope that answers your inquiry
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Old 06-19-2012, 8:09 PM
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The first small agency I worked for in the mid 70's had at some point acquired some M2 carbines from DoD as surplus. A couple rode in a secured storage locker in the trunk of the sergeant's car and the chief had one in the trunk of his city car. They were pretty darned cool. Those could well be still in the armory all these years later for all I know as every agency I've been at never thought about disposing of old weapons and would just put them in the armory to collect dust.

Local to me, Sonoma County SO, Santa Rosa PD, Petaluma PD, Rohnert Park DPS and Lake County SO are all known to have at least some class 3 equipment available for their tactical teams. A couple of current and former Rohnert Park DPS guys were caught with illegal personally owned class 3 a year or two ago and a correctional officer / rangemaster with Lake County SO was hooked up for shenanigans with agency owned weapons, including class 3 not quite two years back.

A Santa Rosa officer had his assigned guns, one reportedly an FA, stolen out of his unmarked city car when he was at an out of town training class a while back. There was some stir in the local press for a few days after that. Similarly, last year, Santa Rosa PD took serious heat from the progressive majority here and about when they had a booth at a community outreach event where local kids got to handle some of the tactical teams unloaded goodies under direct supervision of officers to help the kids learn some gun safety and get past the 'wow factor' when seeing a gun. The mayor, a retired SRPD lieutenant himself, publicly took the side of the department and the kerfuffle eventually died down.

Class 3 are definitely out there in agency hands, probably in larger numbers than the average taxpayer might think about. Sadly they only seem to get any kind of press when one of our brothers or sisters does something less than stellar with one.
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  #16  
Old 06-19-2012, 9:04 PM
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CA Game Wardens and Livermore Police is semi auto, no select fire. I also heard DFG is ditching the m14s and going with .308 AR10s
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Old 06-20-2012, 12:29 AM
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I carried a H&K MP-5, H&K 53 and a M-4 all with full auto capabilities. I also had a Benelli 14" shotgun, but turned it back in....Didn't like it.

My old agency has a Thompson SMG in the armory. What happened was when the Gun Control Act of 1968 passed my agency did not register all their old full auto toys. When it came time to buy new guns the agency could not legally "trade in" the full auto weapons and were stuck with them (this is what I was told). I didn't mind one bit because I got to shoot that thing a lot. It was a paperwork mistake that my agency made as well as others.
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  #18  
Old 06-20-2012, 6:31 AM
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My cousin is a SWAT officer, his issued rifle is a Colt Commando M16-A1. They did swap the upper to a flat top with a 14 inch barrel.
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Old 06-20-2012, 7:17 AM
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Select fire 3 shot burst weapons can be relatively common or sometimes, 2 shot bursts with the MP family of weapons. That feature is very useful in CQB provided that you train with it and use it properly to put a burst on target faster than you can pull the trigger twice or three times.

Full full auto as in the fun button rock n roll feature... yes, there are LE guns with that but real use in LE applications are very limited, if any... unless you can be sure of the backdrop and you have a need to let the lead fly and are ready for the consequences that follow every single bullet.

In short, LE hardly has a suppressive fire lay down a wall of bullets situation like a military operation where you have an all out firefight. Even the biggest firefight in recent LE history like North Hollywood or Waco... you have a lot of civilians in the area which prevent you from going all out.
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Old 06-20-2012, 8:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfred1222 View Post
firing in full auto isn't accurate
Bad info. In a close defense situation, such as a SWAT entry, they are amazingly accurate.
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Old 06-20-2012, 9:05 AM
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Originally Posted by yzernie View Post
Bad info. In a close defense situation, such as a SWAT entry, they are amazingly accurate.
I'm sorry, but firing in full auto (more than the 2 rnd or 3 rnd burst) isn't as accurate as firing in burst or semi auto. You sacrifice control for firepower. Furthermore, if SWAT kicks down someone's door, I really hope they don't start spraying and praying.
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:48 AM
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Depends on the weapon and training. An Uzi, in the hands of someone moderately trained, can unleash all 32 rounds full auto inside an 8" circle at distances up to 10-15 yards. I've seen it done, I've done it myself. Not saying that out would be something I would do in a LE scenario, but out is not impossible.
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfred1222 View Post
I'm sorry, but firing in full auto (more than the 2 rnd or 3 rnd burst) isn't as accurate as firing in burst or semi auto. You sacrifice control for firepower. Furthermore, if SWAT kicks down someone's door, I really hope they don't start spraying and praying.
I guess all my live fire training with said weapon on tactical and dynamic entries was a dream then.
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Old 06-20-2012, 12:08 PM
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But but but.....I thought cops with full auto was just a recent thing, y'know, the militarization of law enforcement???
"Militarization" is far more about mindset, thought processes and training than equipment... tho equipment CAN be a measure of the training and mindset.

The military uses force offensively, collateral damage is generally acceptable and almost always the enemy is not someone the military also has a duty to protect... and when it is the military often declines to act or declines to use "military" options, instead choosing more law enforcement-like tactics and options. (LA riots vs Iraq).

Law enforcement is supposed to use force defensively, when other options are limited or non-existent, keeping in mind that the subject is STILL an individual the officers are sworn to protect and serve.

Instances are increasing of law enforcement utilizing military options, choosing deadly force first or early in the decision process, as well as the mental separation between law enforcement and the general public (utilizing terms like "civilian" incorrectly to differentiate between law enforcement and non-law enforcement... when in fact both groups are civilians) and the widespread use of no-knock warrants which increase the chance of acquiring evidence at the risk of lives of occupants indicate a mindset where use of force is becoming more acceptable.

These sorts of things are usually self-correcting. Eventually you will see more laws like the one recently passed in Indiana... or not. They aren't ALWAYS self-correcting.

When the picture in your post was taken private individuals owned Thompson and other automatic weapons without license or regulation and bought them and other guns via mail order. A police officer patrolling with a Thompson was no big deal if I have one oin my closet as well. Today that is not the case, especially in states like CA, so the police possession of military arms creates a much greater disparity of force between them and those whom they serve, and who supposedly wield the sovereign power of the state and the nation, and serves as an indication or who really serves who.
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Old 06-20-2012, 12:18 PM
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Why would a police force (or anyone) need full auto carbines or rifles? Three round burst is MUCH more effective than full auto. A rifle is just not useful when being fired in fully automatic. Even 3 round burst is hard to control with rapid firing. It's just not practical. I only fired my M4 on burst in Afghanistan twice and those were situations where we were ****ed.
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Old 06-20-2012, 12:46 PM
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I can't speak for all departments with Title II firearms... but for the dept. I used to work for, it was actually cheaper to buy a batch of select-fire Hk firearms w/suppressors as a package than it would've been to buy their semi-auto counterparts without suppressors.
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Old 06-20-2012, 2:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuarterBoreGunner View Post
San Jose MERGE, Campbell SWAT, Santa Clara PD SRT, Sunnyvale Department of Public Safety SWAT, etc. *all* have select fire weapons; AR types and MP-5s exclusively as far as I know. Though back in the 90's Campbell PD's Chief had an SBR Steyr AUG for his on-duty use that converted to lefty use, but if I recall that was semi-auto only.
Campbell PD also has a M249 for whatever reason - although it’s kept in the “cage.”

SJPD has a Thompson - again kept in the “cage."
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Old 06-20-2012, 2:43 PM
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Tank soldier. Look up civilian in the Merriam-Webster dictionary. Police is not civilian.

In any event, police tactics are generally reactionary in that the cops adapt and update their tactics after their most recent engagement. Tactics changed after the SLA shootout, North Hollywood, Columbine, etc.

If the tactics have become more aggressive, there is a reason behind it besides the cops wanting to play Cortez the Conqueror and kill civilians.
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Old 06-20-2012, 2:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Scuba Steve33 View Post
Why would a police force (or anyone) need full auto carbines or rifles? Three round burst is MUCH more effective than full auto. A rifle is just not useful when being fired in fully automatic. Even 3 round burst is hard to control with rapid firing. It's just not practical. I only fired my M4 on burst in Afghanistan twice and those were situations where we were ****ed.
Where as when I was in the military my GAU-5/A was infact full auto and you just trained to use trigger control to control the number of rounds you fired at any given time.

People who have not trained with full-auto weapons tend to think of it in extremes. As if you pull the trigger and no matter what you do it is going to empty the magazine. That isn't so. With training you learn to control exactly how many rounds fire while on full auto. You can fire just one, with ease, while the rifle is set on full auto if you are trained properly. You get to the point where the range officer calls out a number, and using trigger control that is how many rounds you fire. No less, no more. It's actually not hard.

So my question would be why not? SWAT team members are not poorly trained mechanics that will only shoot to qualify once a year and probably never actually be issued a rifle in their entire career...not saying that is you as it clearly is not...but that was the reason the military switch to burst in the first place (and only for general issue weapons as specialized units can still get full auto if they want them). The untrained guys were just spraying and praying and it raised concerns. SWAT guys will use the weapon correctly.

As for the OPs question, yes I have seen full-auto SBRs in the hands of SWAT officers. They are not personal weapons but department owned, and that department jumped through the necessary hoops to get them. Discussions with these officers always result in them lamenting impending retirement, because they really enjoy their full-auto SBRs and semi-auto just isn't the same (made even worse now that even retired officers are required to make their rifles SB23 compliant in addition to the NFA requirements they now have to meet).

Last edited by tacticalcity; 06-20-2012 at 3:01 PM..
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Old 06-20-2012, 3:50 PM
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Why would there be a thompson in a police armory? I am assuming confiscated guns would be stored somewhere else so the only reason I could think of as to why it would be there is if its been there since the 40's... sorry for threadjacking
I don't know if it was in fact confiscated.

I do know that the 92F was coverted by one of the armorers and I think it's funny you asked about the Thompson and not the full auto pistol!!! LOL

I do know we had several different types of full auto weapons and I don't know why the kept them or have them. I was never on the training staff.
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Old 06-20-2012, 4:57 PM
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In 12 years I've never used or seen used a full auto weapon on duty. They are accessible to an elite few officers far above my pay grade and used as needed, which I believe is rarely.
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Old 06-20-2012, 5:06 PM
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Originally Posted by IrishJoe3 View Post
But but but.....I thought cops with full auto was just a recent thing, y'know, the militarization of law enforcement???

LOL. Yeah I hate it when I read some desk jockey in a magazine lamenting about the "militarization of law enforcement" as if the good old days of officers being armed with a 38 revolver while going up againsts gangs armed to the teath thanks to their crack and coke money back in the 80s was a good thing. I'd rather officers have the tools and training and never need it than the other way around. They can still take a community policing with a smile approach and have semi-auto pistols and rifles for when a smile is not enough.

Love that picture by the way. That begs to be framed and hung on the wall of a cop bar.

Last edited by tacticalcity; 06-20-2012 at 5:12 PM..
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Old 06-20-2012, 5:18 PM
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Where as when I was in the military my GAU-5/A was infact full auto and you just trained to use trigger control to control the number of rounds you fired at any given time.

People who have not trained with full-auto weapons tend to think of it in extremes. As if you pull the trigger and no matter what you do it is going to empty the magazine. That isn't so. With training you learn to control exactly how many rounds fire while on full auto. You can fire just one, with ease, while the rifle is set on full auto if you are trained properly. You get to the point where the range officer calls out a number, and using trigger control that is how many rounds you fire. No less, no more. It's actually not hard.

So my question would be why not? SWAT team members are not poorly trained mechanics that will only shoot to qualify once a year and probably never actually be issued a rifle in their entire career...not saying that is you as it clearly is not...but that was the reason the military switch to burst in the first place (and only for general issue weapons as specialized units can still get full auto if they want them). The untrained guys were just spraying and praying and it raised concerns. SWAT guys will use the weapon correctly.

As for the OPs question, yes I have seen full-auto SBRs in the hands of SWAT officers. They are not personal weapons but department owned, and that department jumped through the necessary hoops to get them. Discussions with these officers always result in them lamenting impending retirement, because they really enjoy their full-auto SBRs and semi-auto just isn't the same (made even worse now that even retired officers are required to make their rifles SB23 compliant in addition to the NFA requirements they now have to meet).
I totally understand that and have fired FA rifles. When used in controlled bursts they can be handled. The thing is, if you're firing it in two or three round bursts to keep rounds on target there is no need for FA capabilities when you can have 3 round burst. Obviously my opinion won't change anything, I just don't think it's necessary. Especially for law enforcement situations it's not about gaining fire superiority. They won't be suppressing anything.
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Old 06-20-2012, 5:31 PM
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I totally understand that and have fired FA rifles. When used in controlled bursts they can be handled. The thing is, if you're firing it in two or three round bursts to keep rounds on target there is no need for FA capabilities when you can have 3 round burst. Obviously my opinion won't change anything, I just don't think it's necessary. Especially for law enforcement situations it's not about gaining fire superiority. They won't be suppressing anything.
A lot of the local SWAT guys are instructors at a local school I train with. They stress the non-standard response of 3-5 rounds or fire until the threat is gone approach rather than things like firing the controlled pair. Infact even on semi-auto I rarely saw these guy fire less than 5 rounds at any given time (head shots and precision shots being the exception) the entire time I trained with them. So I guess 3 rounds isn't always enough. They certainly train as if it isn't. They could always just pull the trigger twice, or five times if on semi-auto, but there is nothing wrong with doing it their way either.

I don't know that it is absolutely correct to say SWAT won't need the ability to use supression fire. Not that you need full auto for that either. Most probably never will, but there have been some very high profile incidents where officers used such tactics. Something like the North Hollywood Shootout pops into mind. That stuff is extremely rare. But as with all tools, better to have it and not need it than the other way around.

I'd say it is not a huge deal. The average officer will never need or use it and is probably better off not having it given the training commitment required to master it. But if a SWAT team wants it, more power to 'em.

As a lowly civilian, I just wish I could have one. Never need it. Just want it to have it. Part nostaligia, part fun factor. My issued rifle was not only full-auto but SBR as well. So I can't even own a realistic looking semi-auto nuetered clone. Darn NFA rules.

Last edited by tacticalcity; 06-20-2012 at 5:34 PM..
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Old 06-20-2012, 6:25 PM
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Especially for law enforcement situations it's not about gaining fire superiority. They won't be suppressing anything.
North Hollywood, the SLA shootout, and many other smaller, less well known encounters would argue otherwise. I'd wager at North Hollywood there were any number of guys who would have traded quite a lot for a few minutes of well managed suppressive fire. Reach back to 1966 in Austin Texas and you would see news film of both law enforcement and armed civilians employing suppressive fire techniques on Charles Whitman as he fired from the top of the tower at UT. That suppressive fire allowed two officers and an armed civilian the opportunity to penetrate the observation deck unseen, flush and ultimately kill Whitman.

Response to active shooter situations is another area where, if the situation warrants, that type of a response could be appropriate. Generally the mass shooting scenario is perpetrated by an individual or perhaps two that are perhaps well armed but not truly heavily armed. Those individuals are often cowards who surrender or chew their own front sight when actually confronted by someone who can fight back. We've not yet seen, outside of the movies and a few isolated incidents, where a well disciplined and very heavily armed individual or small group of individuals has really shown what kind of damage can be done.

The situations where local law enforcement might find itself in such a situation are rare, yes. But it has happened and will happen again. It's only a matter of when and where. But that does not mean that the police shouldn't train, equip and prepare to deal with one if it happens in their town because, let's face it, actual combat troops trained and equipped to deal with those sorts of issues are a bit farther away than a radio call.
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Old 06-20-2012, 6:28 PM
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Where as when I was in the military my GAU-5/A was infact full auto and you just trained to use trigger control to control the number of rounds you fired at any given time.

People who have not trained with full-auto weapons tend to think of it in extremes. As if you pull the trigger and no matter what you do it is going to empty the magazine. That isn't so. With training you learn to control exactly how many rounds fire while on full auto. You can fire just one, with ease, while the rifle is set on full auto if you are trained properly. You get to the point where the range officer calls out a number, and using trigger control that is how many rounds you fire. No less, no more. It's actually not hard.

So my question would be why not? SWAT team members are not poorly trained mechanics that will only shoot to qualify once a year and probably never actually be issued a rifle in their entire career...not saying that is you as it clearly is not...but that was the reason the military switch to burst in the first place (and only for general issue weapons as specialized units can still get full auto if they want them). The untrained guys were just spraying and praying and it raised concerns. SWAT guys will use the weapon correctly.

As for the OPs question, yes I have seen full-auto SBRs in the hands of SWAT officers. They are not personal weapons but department owned, and that department jumped through the necessary hoops to get them. Discussions with these officers always result in them lamenting impending retirement, because they really enjoy their full-auto SBRs and semi-auto just isn't the same (made even worse now that even retired officers are required to make their rifles SB23 compliant in addition to the NFA requirements they now have to meet).
Hey!!! I resemble that remark!!!
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Old 06-20-2012, 6:28 PM
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A lot of the local SWAT guys are instructors at a local school I train with. They stress the non-standard response of 3-5 rounds or fire until the threat is gone approach rather than things like firing the controlled pair. Infact even on semi-auto I rarely saw these guy fire less than 5 rounds at any given time (head shots and precision shots being the exception) the entire time I trained with them. So I guess 3 rounds isn't always enough. They certainly train as if it isn't. They could always just pull the trigger twice, or five times if on semi-auto, but there is nothing wrong with doing it their way either.

I don't know that it is absolutely correct to say SWAT won't need the ability to use supression fire. Not that you need full auto for that either. Most probably never will, but there have been some very high profile incidents where officers used such tactics. Something like the North Hollywood Shootout pops into mind. That stuff is extremely rare. But as with all tools, better to have it and not need it than the other way around.

I'd say it is not a huge deal. The average officer will never need or use it and is probably better off not having it given the training commitment required to master it. But if a SWAT team wants it, more power to 'em.

As a lowly civilian, I just wish I could have one. Never need it. Just want it to have it. Part nostaligia, part fun factor. My issued rifle was not only full-auto but SBR as well. So I can't even own a realistic looking semi-auto nuetered clone. Darn NFA rules.
We were trained (and performed this over there) if we saw a guy drop in combat, empty the rest of our mags into his body so we trained with the same state of mind. We wouldn't perform only double taps. On top of that, as we walked through the objective after the firefight, any bodies we came across got two rounds to the head. That's standard US Army infantry training.

You're right, it isn't a big deal I guess I'm just use to seeing mostly 3 round burst M4s. I agree it's better to have than not need than to need and not have.

Some of our rifles were FA with other fun features.



I too wish I could recreate some of the weapons I was issued. I must really like this weather haha.
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Old 06-20-2012, 8:21 PM
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We were trained (and performed this over there) if we saw a guy drop in combat, empty the rest of our mags into his body so we trained with the same state of mind. We wouldn't perform only double taps. On top of that, as we walked through the objective after the firefight, any bodies we came across got two rounds to the head. That's standard US Army infantry training.

You're right, it isn't a big deal I guess I'm just use to seeing mostly 3 round burst M4s. I agree it's better to have than not need than to need and not have.

Some of our rifles were FA with other fun features.



I too wish I could recreate some of the weapons I was issued. I must really like this weather haha.
That's why people should stop comparing LE to military combat operations. You do that here and not only will you lose your job, you will go to prison.

I had a friend on a SWAT entry team confront two suspects, both armed an firing, in a stairwell. They were on the top, he was on the bottom. He fired a full mag from an MP-5 as he backed out. It turns out, 29 of 30 rounds were hits. Bad guys were wear wearing body armor and although the body hits slowed them down, they didn't stop until each got a head shot.

Someone please tell him that LE doesn't need full auto.....


And I am NOT criticizing military tactics and training. LE and combat operations are different, as they should be.
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  #39  
Old 06-20-2012, 9:04 PM
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Yep, you put a round into anyone that is down and no longer a threat, you are going to prison. Heck, even in military operations, that is being prosecuted now. There is one case going on where a Marine is being court martialed for shooting a terrorist who was proned but was reaching for something the Marine thought was a grenade so the Marine fired more rounds into the prone body until he stopped moving. Bad luck for the Marine that there was a journalist there filming it and turned in the film, claiming the Marine was executing people.

In short, I can see where in very specific and limited circumstances that LE will have to lay down suppressive fire, but not for 99.5382584309% of the engagements.
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Old 06-20-2012, 9:24 PM
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LOL. Yeah I hate it when I read some desk jockey in a magazine lamenting about the "militarization of law enforcement" as if the good old days of officers being armed with a 38 revolver while going up againsts gangs armed to the teath thanks to their crack and coke money back in the 80s was a good thing. I'd rather officers have the tools and training and never need it than the other way around. They can still take a community policing with a smile approach and have semi-auto pistols and rifles for when a smile is not enough.

Love that picture by the way. That begs to be framed and hung on the wall of a cop bar.

I found it! I was reading through the officer down memorial (www.odmp.org) once and I stumbled across this little bio.

Can you imagine the shockwaves that would result if this perimeter happened in the year 2012?

Constable Rasmus L. Rasmussen, Petaluma Police Dept

End of Watch: Wednesday, April 20, 1927

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Failla then retreated to his house on Cherry Street and barricaded himself inside. Constable Rasmussen, Sheriff Douglas Bills and several deputies, as well as Petaluma Police Chief Mike Flohr and his men surrounded the house. The local National Guard Machine Gun Detail even got involved, firing bursts of machine gun rounds at the house. At one point, an airplane was sent to San Francisco to pick up a hand grenade and four tear gas bombs from the San Francisco Police Department. During the standoff, Constable Rasmussen was shot in the head by John Failla.

I think what people don't get is that police tactics today are a direct result of lessons learned in blood. Over the years, officers were getting murdered in Mayberry, and lessons were learned and applied from those deaths. Thats why your beat cop doesn't walk around in a wool shirt swinging a night stick sporting a whistle on a chain.

Last edited by IrishJoe3; 06-20-2012 at 9:29 PM..
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