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  #1  
Old 06-16-2012, 6:43 PM
Tghgy2 Tghgy2 is offline
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Default 45LC, Trailboss, Uberti cattleman

I was given some 255gr RNFP 45Lc rounds loaded with 8.2 grains of trailboss.Can I shoot these in the Uberti 1873 cattleman clone. IMR web site list 5.8gr max for the 255gr 45LC. Any help or guidence would be appreciated.

I know they have 8.2gr in them because I was there when they were loaded.
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  #2  
Old 06-16-2012, 7:12 PM
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The good news is it's practically impossible to kaboom a gun with TB as long as it's not a compressed load. But why would somebody use so much TB

TB excels in light to medium loads especially with lead. Why somebody would choose it to load hot is beyond me. There are about a dozen better powders.

Never compress TB.
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Old 06-16-2012, 8:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XDRoX View Post
The good news is it's practically impossible to kaboom a gun with TB as long as it's not a compressed load. But why would somebody use so much TB

TB excels in light to medium loads especially with lead. Why somebody would choose it to load hot is beyond me. There are about a dozen better powders.

Never compress TB.
Thank you
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Old 06-16-2012, 8:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Steele View Post
I think the powder manufacturers publish their max loads so people won't blow their gun up and hurt themselves.

IMR also publishes a load procedure for use in cowboy loads. They state that by marking the case where the bullet is seated and filling the case to that point, you are safe pressure wise. My .44 RM's hold over 11grs of Trail Boss to the case mouth. .45 LC will hold more powder than a .44 so thinking a 255gr bullet won't take more than 25% of the .45 LC case volume (crimped at the cannelure) using IMR's basic load advice, you should be GTG.

You need to check my math on the above though, before dropping the hammer.
Thank you I saw that on IMRs web site earlier but just wanted some advice. I will check the math. Thanks again
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Old 06-16-2012, 9:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Tghgy2 View Post
Thank you I saw that on IMRs web site earlier but just wanted some advice. I will check the math. Thanks again
Yes well, I deleted my first post because I am now in a little doubt myself. I went back and checked my notes and it would appear a .45LC should be able to hold well over 11grs of TB, so according to this data your load should be fine with a 255gr lead bullet crimped at the cannelure.

Unfortunately, when I looked at my Lee 2nd edition, it says your case holds 1.93 cc's, which pencils out to like 8.9grs of TB and that would mean you are compressing the 8.2gr load and hence over IMR's safe load guidelines.

This is puzzling to me as I am pretty careful with my notes and my notes clearly say 11 grs for a full .44 case (which is decidedly smaller than a .45 LC case).

Hopefully someone will happen along who actually loads TB in .45LC with a full case and a 255gr lead bullet.

Sorry for the confusion, it is probably better to get a little more specific advice before shooting them.
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Old 06-17-2012, 7:35 AM
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OK, this one piqued my interest enough I actually went down and measured things with a scale.

I gave my last bottle of TB away to "Emma Goldman", so I used a different powder and backed into the number using relative VMD's. Accounting for some tolerance buildup for the worst case (i.e. thick brass, tight sizing die, variance in VMD from batch to batch, etc.), you still should be able to get 12grs of TB in a .45LC case when filled to the rim.

The longest 255gr bullet I could find will take up about 30% of the case volume when crimped to the cannelure, so 70% of 12grs yields a practical usable case volume of TB of 8.4grs (i.e. using IMR's fill to the base of the bullet guideline).

The good news then is if you are loading lead and not something like an all copper Barnes bullet, you won't be compressing the TB with that load. The bad news is you are likely very close to IMR's max load using their fill the case to the base of the bullet guideline.

I think before shooting them, I would give Hodgdon a call and ask about the difference between their published max load in their load data and their fill to the base of the bullet guideline and assure a .45LC filled to the base of the bullet will still be safe, as it clearly is over their published max.

If you do decide to give them a try, load 1 only and after shooting it, check for signs of over pressure (i.e. case hard to eject, flattened primer, split case at the waist, etc.). My guess is even at this max level, the load will feel light compared to other denser powders.

Of course, all of the above hinges on the supposition you were actually loading 8.2grs...

Good luck, have fuin.
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  #7  
Old 06-17-2012, 8:55 AM
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Some compression seems to be ok for Trail Boss. (see max load for 200gr lead in 45acp )

OP, you should be fine...

If you want the weight of a full case (minus seating depth of a 200gr bullet) of Trail Boss in a Starline 45colt case, I can go get it for you this afternoon...
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Old 06-17-2012, 8:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Steele View Post
OK, this one piqued my interest enough I actually went down and measured things with a scale.

I gave my last bottle of TB away to "Emma Goldman", so I used a different powder and backed into the number using relative VMD's. Accounting for some tolerance buildup for the worst case (i.e. thick brass, tight sizing die, variance in VMD from batch to batch, etc.), you still should be able to get 12grs of TB in a .45LC case when filled to the rim.

The longest 255gr bullet I could find will take up about 30% of the case volume when crimped to the cannelure, so 70% of 12grs yields a practical usable case volume of TB of 8.4grs (i.e. using IMR's fill to the base of the bullet guideline).

The good news then is if you are loading lead and not something like an all copper Barnes bullet, you won't be compressing the TB with that load. The bad news is you are likely very close to IMR's max load using their fill the case to the base of the bullet guideline.

I think before shooting them, I would give Hodgdon a call and ask about the difference between their published max load in their load data and their fill to the base of the bullet guideline and assure a .45LC filled to the base of the bullet will still be safe, as it clearly is over their published max.

If you do decide to give them a try, load 1 only and after shooting it, check for signs of over pressure (i.e. case hard to eject, flattened primer, split case at the waist, etc.). My guess is even at this max level, the load will feel light compared to other denser powders.

Of course, all of the above hinges on the supposition you were actually loading 8.2grs...

Good luck, have fuin.
Hey thanks for all the effort I really appeciate it! I talked to my friend I think were gonna shoot them in his Ruger. then reload them at the 5.8 IMR recomends. Better safe than sorry. Thanks again for the Guidence and effort to keep me safe! PS If your a father Happy Fathers day.
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Old 06-17-2012, 8:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bandook View Post
Some compression seems to be ok for Trail Boss. (see max load for 200gr lead in 45acp )

OP, you should be fine...

If you want the weight of a full case (minus seating depth of a 200gr bullet) of Trail Boss in a Starline 45colt case, I can go get it for you this afternoon...
I have 255gr bullet but any info would be helpfull Thank you
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Old 06-17-2012, 2:06 PM
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I'd personally never compress trailboss even if it could be, but this concern seems quite common:

http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

http://www.google.com/search?q=45+co...ax+load+is+low
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Old 06-17-2012, 2:11 PM
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Just checked Lyman's 49th. DO NOT SHOOT THOSE IN THAT UBERTI! Here's the listed load data for SAAMI-spec .45 Colt and a 250gr LRNFP.

Min: 5.1gr, velocity 762fps, pressure 11,000 CUP
Max: 5.8gr, velocity 813fps, pressure 12,500 CUP

Therefore, an 8.2gr load looks very hot for any Colt SAA's or their clones. From these stats, you are very likely to blow up that Uberti of yours with that load.

Now, if it were 8.2gr of Unique, then that'd be different. Max load for Unique is 9.0gr, so 8.2 would be just fine.

If you want to shoot those hot loads, then please only do so in a Magnum-strength gun, something like a .454 Casull firearm or a Ruger Redhawk/Blackhawk.
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Old 06-17-2012, 3:24 PM
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I quit using Trail Boss for two reasons

First I couldn't find a real accurate load. I tried several bullets, and several powder weights for each bullet And even with full recommended loads the velocity varied between shots so much I couldn't find an acceptable load even for cowboy shooting.

second It looked like an inexpensive powder till I realized that I wasn't getting a whole pound in a 1 lb can. Only about 9 oz.

I settled on Tight Group. there's very little variation between shots, it drops accurately out of any powder measure Ive tried and I get near 1000 loads from a 1lb can. I use as little as 3gr under a 230gr lead bullet for cowboy action loads. And my guns are nearly as clean after a day of shooting as when I left home.
To get a good accurate load for your 255gr lead bullet would be only between 4 and 6gr. 6 gr would be a stout load. DR
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Old 06-17-2012, 3:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboy T View Post
Just checked Lyman's 49th. DO NOT SHOOT THOSE IN THAT UBERTI! Here's the listed load data for SAAMI-spec .45 Colt and a 250gr LRNFP.

Min: 5.1gr, velocity 762fps, pressure 11,000 CUP
Max: 5.8gr, velocity 813fps, pressure 12,500 CUP

Therefore, an 8.2gr load looks very hot for any Colt SAA's or their clones. From these stats, you are very likely to blow up that Uberti of yours with that load.

Now, if it were 8.2gr of Unique, then that'd be different. Max load for Unique is 9.0gr, so 8.2 would be just fine.

If you want to shoot those hot loads, then please only do so in a Magnum-strength gun, something like a .454 Casull firearm or a Ruger Redhawk/Blackhawk.
Thanks I think thats what Im gonna do
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Old 06-17-2012, 3:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
I'd personally never compress trailboss even if it could be, but this concern seems quite common:

http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

http://www.google.com/search?q=45+co...ax+load+is+low
Thanks I saw those in my research thats part of the reason I came here. I appreciate it
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Old 06-17-2012, 3:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dangerranger View Post
I quit using Trail Boss for two reasons

First I couldn't find a real accurate load. I tried several bullets, and several powder weights for each bullet And even with full recommended loads the velocity varied between shots so much I couldn't find an acceptable load even for cowboy shooting.

second It looked like an inexpensive powder till I realized that I wasn't getting a whole pound in a 1 lb can. Only about 9 oz.

I settled on Tight Group. there's very little variation between shots, it drops accurately out of any powder measure Ive tried and I get near 1000 loads from a 1lb can. I use as little as 3gr under a 230gr lead bullet for cowboy action loads. And my guns are nearly as clean after a day of shooting as when I left home.
To get a good accurate load for your 255gr lead bullet would be only between 4 and 6gr. 6 gr would be a stout load. DR
thanks
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Old 06-17-2012, 9:13 PM
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thats a lot of powder 6 grains is all i have ever used
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Old 06-17-2012, 9:19 PM
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As Cowboy T mentioned.... There is usually two listings for .45 Long Colt....

one is specially for Ruger, Freedom Arms & Thompson Contenders

and the second is for any other brands.

If you are not loading for the first three, then follower the category for all replicas/others.

For me, I'm using Titegroup as well with a 200gr SWC.
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Old 06-17-2012, 9:20 PM
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In a Starline 45 Colt case, 230gr bullet, a 100% (uncompressed) charge is in the vicinity pf 9.3 grains. so with the 255 gr bullet, you're probably running at close to 100%.
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Old 06-17-2012, 9:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tghgy2 View Post
Hey thanks for all the effort I really appeciate it! I talked to my friend I think were gonna shoot them in his Ruger. then reload them at the 5.8 IMR recomends. Better safe than sorry.
Excellent Idea.
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Old 06-18-2012, 3:02 PM
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I have run up to 8.5 grains of TB in a 45lc case with a cast 270 SAA HP bullet, and it was very soft, but it was shot from an S&W 460. This should have been a max load for TB-filled to the bullet.

TB sometimes works better at light to mid load data, when looking for accuracy and consistency.

I like win 231 for 45lc loads, but the bulk of TB is nice. TB is great for light loads in the big 460 cases. 231 isn't even listed for use in 460, so TB gets used.
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Old 06-18-2012, 6:14 PM
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Trail Boss is nearly as fast as Bullseye and somewhere I saw a graph that showed pressures rising more and more quickly as charges were increased with TB.

I would pull these loads, if they were mine.
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Old 06-18-2012, 7:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGT80 View Post
I have run up to 8.5 grains of TB in a 45lc case with a cast 270 SAA HP bullet, and it was very soft, but it was shot from an S&W 460. This should have been a max load for TB-filled to the bullet.
That rule works for rifles, but remember that this is a Colt SAA clone that is spec'd to take only 14,000 PSI loads. That S&W 460 is built to take 60,000 PSI, so you can easily get away with what you're doing.
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Old 06-19-2012, 9:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGT80 View Post
.....but it was shot from an S&W 460. TB sometimes works better at light to mid load data, when looking for accuracy and consistency.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboy T View Post
That rule works for rifles, but remember that this is a Colt SAA clone that is spec'd to take only 14,000 PSI loads. That S&W 460 is built to take 60,000 PSI, so you can easily get away with what you're doing.
Exactly my point as well. It depends on the gun, and the max loads aren't always the best loads. I wasn't stating that the load should be used for an old single action, but that it was the max load I found using the 100-70% trail boss formula.

Trail boss may be better suited for the 45lc than some other powders, since it is bulky and easy to see in the case. My hot loads in 45lc with win 231 (for standard pressure, not ruger loads) don't fill the case much. I'm sure a close to full case would be quite bad even for the hand cannons.

Since we are talking about case capacity for trail boss powder. I found a 100% filled load in 460 to the bottom of a 270 bullet with TB was 14 grains.
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Old 06-19-2012, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboy T View Post
That rule works for rifles, but remember that this is a Colt SAA clone that is spec'd to take only 14,000 PSI loads. That S&W 460 is built to take 60,000 PSI, so you can easily get away with what you're doing.
I get your point and staying within load guidelines is always a good thing, but to put things in perspective though, 11grs of TB in a 460S&W with a 325gr bullet makes about 20K PSI.
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Old 06-19-2012, 12:32 PM
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20,000 PSI admittedly doesn't sound like much... but remember, that's in a .460 S&W case. Those things are huge! We're talking a .45 Colt case, with less space and thus likely somewhat more pressure. Also, the 460 gun is much stronger. We can do a whole lot of things with .460 S&W and .454 Casull that we don't dare try in a SAA or clone. And even 20,000 PSI is too much for a gun rated for only 14K.

Not trying to dog or otherwise put down anyone here, just making sure the OP knows to be careful with hotter loads in those SAA clones.
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Old 06-19-2012, 3:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboy T View Post
20,000 PSI admittedly doesn't sound like much... but remember, that's in a .460 S&W case. Those things are huge! We're talking a .45 Colt case, with less space and thus likely somewhat more pressure. Also, the 460 gun is much stronger. We can do a whole lot of things with .460 S&W and .454 Casull that we don't dare try in a SAA or clone. And even 20,000 PSI is too much for a gun rated for only 14K.

Not trying to dog or otherwise put down anyone here, just making sure the OP knows to be careful with hotter loads in those SAA clones.
I totally agree with the sentiment that when in doubt, don't shoot it.

As far as the difference between the OP's load and the 460S&W load I referenced, I think the pressure would actually be less than the 20K PSI of the larger caliber, I mean the available case volume is about the same as the additional charge by volume, the bullet is 33% larger using the same bore, etc.

What is greatly puzzling is the Hodgdon website clearly says ANY cartridge can be safely loaded by fillling the case to where the bullet seats, this is the maximum charge under this guideline. I doubt they would leave this up on their website if there were exceptions to this rule of thumb. I mean with as much TB as is being loaded around the Cowboy circuit, for sure, reports of blown up guns with Trail Boss would abound if this load guideline had any holes in it.

But again, definitely it is better safe than sorry.
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Old 06-19-2012, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Steele View Post
I totally agree with the sentiment that when in doubt, don't shoot it.

As far as the difference between the OP's load and the 460S&W load I referenced, I think the pressure would actually be less than the 20K PSI of the larger caliber, I mean the available case volume is about the same as the additional charge by volume, the bullet is 33% larger using the same bore, etc.

What is greatly puzzling is the Hodgdon website clearly says ANY cartridge can be safely loaded by fillling the case to where the bullet seats, this is the maximum charge under this guideline. I doubt they would leave this up on their website if there were exceptions to this rule of thumb. I mean with as much TB as is being loaded around the Cowboy circuit, for sure, reports of blown up guns with Trail Boss would abound if this load guideline had any holes in it.

But again, definitely it is better safe than sorry.
Lots of cowboy action guys use Clays. If you fill a .45lc case with Clays and shoot it in a SAA or '66-'73 series rifle, I sure don't want to be anywhere near you when it goes off. These black powder cases can hold A LOT of powder. Trail Boss exists mostly because a .45lc case will hold close to 3X the safe max of a modern fast powder like Clays.
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Old 06-23-2012, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scotty99 View Post
Lots of cowboy action guys use Clays. If you fill a .45lc case with Clays and shoot it in a SAA or '66-'73 series rifle, I sure don't want to be anywhere near you when it goes off. These black powder cases can hold A LOT of powder. Trail Boss exists mostly because a .45lc case will hold close to 3X the safe max of a modern fast powder like Clays.
The Tite Group I use would do the same if I filled the case. Probably just from a double charge. Its near the top of the chart for fast burning powders. You have to be careful. I use it tho because its clean burning , economical and accurate. DR
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Old 06-24-2012, 7:34 AM
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Did some searching this morning. Bill's correct in that there is a publication that says, and I quote:

"we have a formula for developing loads for all cartridges and it's simple to follow. This formula may be used in both rifle and pistol applications:"

and they then go on to state the formula. The publication is here.

http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

So, yes, IMR/Hodgdon do say this. I had thought it was for rifle cartridges only, but they clearly do say "rifle and pistol applications". Given the .45 Colt's stated pressure limits, I'm thinking they probably had the higher pressure cartridges (e. g. .460 S&W, .480 Ruger) in mind when they wrote this document. That's just a guess, though.
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