Expunged Juvie Records and LE BI

[JawJack]

I'm about to begin the app process and had a question in regards to an expunged juvie record and a BI. I was a knucklehead kid, did some juvie time in a youth camp, multiple trips to juvie hall. I was told upon completion of juvenile probation that my record was to be expunged.

I'm a combat vet of the finest fighting force in the world with an honorable discharge. I own a home, cars, guns, have some good work experience and a high 800 credit score and haven't been in any trouble with LE since being a dumb@ss kid. I'm pretty sure the content of my juvie record would DQ me so I would rather not disclose it, especially if the BI won't be able to find/see it.

I am pretty sure my juvie records were expunged because if they weren't the .mil wouldn't have given me a clearance. If the DOD can't see my juvie records then I presume a BI wouldn't either. Does this sound about right to you guys?

TIA!

[Ron-Solo]

If you don't disclose it, and they find it, you are done before you ever get started. Nothing is ever completely sealed.

What you have done since speaks volumes about your character since you decided to stop being a "Knucklehead Kid" and grew up.

They may not be able to see everything and all the details, but they will see stuff. Failure to disclose on many departments is grounds for discharge even if they only find it years after you were hired. I had a deputy working for me who was a hard working top notch guy, but a year and a half after he was hired they found he lied during his background on something, and he was immediately fired. He took it to a Civil Service Commission hearing and lost.

[Falconis]

It'll probably be like this.

Subject was arrested as a juvenile. Record will read arrested for XYZ (Record sealed).

You fail to disclose, like Ron said, you'll be done. That's from any and all police backgrounds from that point on. Had an acquaintance that refused to divulge his deuce conviction because he thought that record was sealed too. 15 years later, well 20 now, he still isn't going to be a cop and argues with every BI he meets.

Your choice. Looks like you did grow up on the right track, so that and all the work you have done since should earn you some points.

Just out of curiosity, when was your last knucklehead incident and how old are you now?

BTW, there are ways to get into sealed records.

[CalCop]

From CA POST backgrounds guide:

SEALED AND EXPUNGED RECORDS
In certain circumstances, applicants may lawfully deny that an arrest (and in some cases even
a conviction) ever occurred. Table 5.13 lists circumstances in which a peace office applicant
may lawfully refrain from disclosing arrests and/or convictions that have been sealed,
expunged or set aside. Public safety dispatcher applicants are generally exempted from
disclosing any legal proceeding that was sealed, expunged or set aside, with the exception of
those falling under the Federal Youth Offender Act (18 USC 5038).
It is important to underscore that a sealing or expungment does not relieve the applicant from
providing information about the underlying conduct that led to such a sealed or expunged
record. (The possible exception might be an arrest/conviction expunged by a court pursuant to
PC §851.8, in which case the court made a factual finding of innocence, as there is no
underlying conduct to disclose). “Rap Sheets” obtained from DOJ or the FBI are presumptively
authoritative records of an individual’s history of arrest and/or conviction.
The POST PHS admonishes applicants to obtain legal advice before failing to disclose any
arrest and/or conviction. Background investigators must therefore determine whether such
information, if discovered, constitutes a material omission of required information, or the
exercise of a “release from penalties” right afforded to applicants by law.

Page 5-42 has a chart of records you don't have to disclose.
http://lib.post.ca.gov/Publications/bi.pdf

[CalCop]

It also says this:

For some people, there may be one or more incidents or occurrences in their background which
they regret or over which they may feel some embarrassment. A prospective employer will not
make inquiries into areas of a person's background that have no legitimate bearing on their
qualifications for the job. You should understand that the mere presence of so-called "negative"
information in your background is not automatically disqualifying. For example, an applicant may
have engaged in petty thievery as a child, used illegal drugs, been fired from a job, or been
convicted of a crime as an adult. While these things in and of themselves may not automatically
remove that person from consideration for a job, lying about them will.

and this:

I understand that any false statement and/or deliberate misrepresentations, whether by omission
or commission, will result in my application being automatically and irrevocably rejected from
further consideration.

[45DAVID1]

I had a juvi felony conviction at 13. Record was sealed and expunged. I mentioned the incident on my National Security Clearance and it was never told it couldnt be found. Never mentioned it again for any jobs and never had a problem even when applying and getting hired with a LEO agency.

[ckim34]

I know some agencies will ask you in your PHQ if you ever hada juvenile record expunged. If you lie and they find it you are done. Like others have said, nothing is ever 100% gone.

[JawJack]

Originally Posted by Falconis

It'll probably be like this.

Subject was arrested as a juvenile. Record will read arrested for XYZ (Record sealed).

You fail to disclose, like Ron said, you'll be done. That's from any and all police backgrounds from that point on. Had an acquaintance that refused to divulge his deuce conviction because he thought that record was sealed too. 15 years later, well 20 now, he still isn't going to be a cop and argues with every BI he meets.

Your choice. Looks like you did grow up on the right track, so that and all the work you have done since should earn you some points.

Just out of curiosity, when was your last knucklehead incident and how old are you now?

BTW, there are ways to get into sealed records.

my last offense was when I was 16. I'm more than double that age and some now.

Originally Posted by CalCop

From CA POST backgrounds guide:


Page 5-42 has a chart of records you don't have to disclose.
http://lib.post.ca.gov/Publications/bi.pdf

Thanks for the chart. very useful info.

Originally Posted by CalCop

It also says this:


and this:

Originally Posted by tango78

I had a juvi felony conviction at 13. Record was sealed and expunged. I mentioned the incident on my National Security Clearance and it was never told it couldnt be found. Never mentioned it again for any jobs and never had a problem even when applying and getting hired with a LEO agency.

So to be clear, you had/have a juvie record and mentioned it while applying for a .mil security clearance, at which time you were told by the security investigator for the clearance that it could not be found and not to worry about mentioning it in the future. You have since then, never mentioned it and it has never been found, even when seeking and eventually attaining employment as an LEO?

If this is what your saying then, this was the basis for my argument. I never disclosed to the investigator, my juvie record and was still granted a .mil security clearance which leads me to believe that the records were expunged as opposed to just sealed. Thanks for your input.

Originally Posted by Ron-Solo

If you don't disclose it, and they find it, you are done before you ever get started. Nothing is ever completely sealed.

What you have done since speaks volumes about your character since you decided to stop being a "Knucklehead Kid" and grew up.

They may not be able to see everything and all the details, but they will see stuff. Failure to disclose on many departments is grounds for discharge even if they only find it years after you were hired. I had a deputy working for me who was a hard working top notch guy, but a year and a half after he was hired they found he lied during his background on something, and he was immediately fired. He took it to a Civil Service Commission hearing and lost.

I understand what you are saying here and thanks for your .02, I still have reservations as my juvie record is pretty gnarly. I wont go into details but many of the offenses would be auto DQ's for most agencies. To me, this is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation where, it makes more sense to me to try and forego disclosure because I am sure that if they knew what I did as a juvie I would be DQ'd anyway, regardless of the time passed or whatever I have done since then. Some things regardless of how you wrap them, don't look good and aren't conducive to LEO work. With the competitiveness of the applicant process, I don't want to give up anything that may DQ me if that makes sense. Thanks for your input.

Originally Posted by ckim34

I know some agencies will ask you in your PHQ if you ever hada juvenile record expunged. If you lie and they find it you are done. Like others have said, nothing is ever 100% gone.

True say here but my thinking is that this only applies to sealed records and not expunged records given the example of the security clearances granted to myself and Tango78 and our juvenile histories. I'm pretty sure that the .mil screening process is a bit more involved than a local LE agency would be. I say this because to me, there seems a bit more at stake with sensitive national security information as opposed to potentially offering a potential LE applicant a job. The lack of BI responses here in regards to expunged records here stands to further support my claims. Thanks for your input.

[East Bay Cop]

The people doing the background are typically investigators/detectives. Even though its "expunged" from public records Law Enforcement will more than likely have access to it, arrest logs, police reports etc. These things dont get tossed in the shredder. If there was a paper trail at one time there prob goin to find it. Be honest is the best bet.

[veeklog]

Originally Posted by JawJack

my last offense was when I was 16. I'm more than double that age and some now.



Thanks for the chart. very useful info.





So to be clear, you had/have a juvie record and mentioned it while applying for a .mil security clearance, at which time you were told by the security investigator for the clearance that it could not be found and not to worry about mentioning it in the future. You have since then, never mentioned it and it has never been found, even when seeking and eventually attaining employment as an LEO?

If this is what your saying then, this was the basis for my argument. I never disclosed to the investigator, my juvie record and was still granted a .mil security clearance which leads me to believe that the records were expunged as opposed to just sealed. Thanks for your input.



I understand what you are saying here and thanks for your .02, I still have reservations as my juvie record is pretty gnarly. I wont go into details but many of the offenses would be auto DQ's for most agencies. To me, this is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation where, it makes more sense to me to try and forego disclosure because I am sure that if they knew what I did as a juvie I would be DQ'd anyway, regardless of the time passed or whatever I have done since then. Some things regardless of how you wrap them, don't look good and aren't conducive to LEO work. With the competitiveness of the applicant process, I don't want to give up anything that may DQ me if that makes sense. Thanks for your input.



True say here but my thinking is that this only applies to sealed records and not expunged records given the example of the security clearances granted to myself and Tango78 and our juvenile histories. I'm pretty sure that the .mil screening process is a bit more involved than a local LE agency would be. I say this because to me, there seems a bit more at stake with sensitive national security information as opposed to potentially offering a potential LE applicant a job. The lack of BI responses here in regards to expunged records here stands to further support my claims. Thanks for your input.

I think you are trying to convince yourself that the investigator won't find it; even if they don't find it now, your BI is ongoing, and if they find it while you are in the academy, you are finished! I know about a few incidents where there we're trainees that were discovered that they were wanted for crimes, and the FBI came to arrest them while they were in uniform and in law class. Just come clean and let see what happens. If it happened 20 years ago and the you have had a spotless record plus countless clearances, I think any BI Investigator will take it as a mitigating circumstances and see that your life was turned around.

Bro, most of the best people I met on the job were not Angels; they did some boneheaded things in their youth. But what it did was create "street smarts" and that is something you CAN'T teach!

[SVT-40]

Originally Posted by East Bay Cop

The people doing the background are typically investigators/detectives. Even though its "expunged" from public records Law Enforcement will more than likely have access to it, arrest logs, police reports etc. These things dont get tossed in the shredder. If there was a paper trail at one time there prob goin to find it. Be honest is the best bet.

This is true.

Remember just because a court "expunged" your record that does not mean the underlying police reports detailing your past misdeeds were destroyed, because they were not. They still exist and will be discovered during a background. During a background you list every address you have ever lived at, school you attended and job you had. The BI will contact each agency where you have lived, gone to school and worked and do a "local" check to determine the contacts you have had with those agencys. The info regarding your juvenile arrests will be there and it will be discovered as will any and all citations, or reports you made and if you were ever a witness to any crimes ect.

A police background is usually much more detailed than most security clearance backgrounds. They will talk to your childhood friends, past girlfriends, old neighbors, past employers ect. They will ask each of those people if they know anyone else who has any information which could disqualify you from being a LEO.

In other words your past will come out so don't commit a lie of omission. In addition even if the BI does not discover your past you will fail your polygraph, because you cannot truthfully answer the following question, which your will be asked...

Have you failed to disclose any information which could disqualify you from being a LEO?

Pass or fail based on the truth.

Sometimes a good person just cannot be a LEO no matter how they may have changed. Some crimes just cannot be excused even with the passage of time.

[Bobby Hated]

if there's something in your background that you're considering hiding or not mentioning...

you probably already know you shouldnt be a LEO.

[Ron-Solo]

Originally Posted by Bobby Hated

if there's something in your background that you're considering hiding or not mentioning...

you probably already know you shouldnt be a LEO.

Bingo!