your LEO pension cut

[tbhracing]

Originally Posted by jvpark

I did not take the time to review the whole thread but I can tell you all defined benefit plans (your pension) are insured up to $54k. I don't care which spokeshole is lying to you, public pensions are underfunded. Which means when your too old to go back to work, well into your retirement, your pension will be cut. Why? Because th benefits are not sustainable. Too little contributions for too much benefits. It's not science or some sophicated calculation. Just simple math... This is coming from a guy with 23+ years in the financial services industry. Sorry.

Please cite a source on this other than the Stanford student written paper by former Gov. Arnold. Did you see the total numbers per CalPERS for 2010? After completing ALL of their financial obligations including medical, they were well into the black. Lets review-

The Census Bureau report also reveals that during the 2010 fiscal year, California's pension funds earned $63.1 billion on their investments and received another $23 billion in contributions from employees and government agencies while paying out $35.2 billion, including $33.1 billion in benefits.

Simple math-
Fund earned- 63.1 billion + 23 billion in contributions= 86.1 Billion.
Paid out 35.2 billion INCLUDING 33.1 in benefits.. So simple math tells me that 86.1 billion minus 35.2 = 50.9 billion.

Thats all according to the SacBee newspaper (who hates state employees) and the Census Bureau. I didnt make those numbers up and with 50.9 BILLION in profit. The article next cites "unfunded liabilities", but can not give specifics. Its just not an issue.

Link- California public pension fund assets rebounded in 2010

But that was only 2010. What about 2011? Well CalPERS says that on top of those great 2010 numbers, they GAINED in 2011 20.7% and "Return Marks Best Performance in 14 Years". Oh ok, I know you dont believe me, so here is the link- CalPERS Reports Preliminary 2010-11 Fiscal Year Gain of 20.7 Percent

Yes, CalPERS had a bad year in 2008 like everyone else. But the pension plan has NEVER been bailed out by Taxpayers. The other fact is that members here and the general public keep forgetting is that CalPERS reinvests back in to the state my mandatory policy. More proof- CalPERS plans $800 million investment in California infrastructure

[Jack L]

Originally Posted by jvpark

Seriously?
"Morally correct to compensate LE appropriately?" What's fair? 50%, 70% 90% for salary? Who knows but whatever the amount, it's not enough and NOT enough and not sustainable.

Yes, seriously. IMO LEOs are one of the last bastions of civilized hope working the streets and in our houses. We are asking from them to do everything from public education to taking a life if need be (while risking theirs). While many can argue they are also stressed in their work, most do not have the training and/or ability to cover the spectrum of real time speed and efficiency LEOs are expected to perform. Argue what you will but my taxes are well spent on LE and as far as I am concerned, whatever it takes too maintain a realistic retirement for them I’ll gladly help pay for because the alternative is too alarming to contemplate. The stress alone, where seconds often count regarding mortality and morbidity, is something that those that do not walk the walk will never know. I'm speaking of a life long career, not a 2 year combat mission, but a 30 year mission. Knowing each call will be scrutinized by the public, the DA, lawyers and your department is added weight to scene size up and protocol execution. We as citizens are asked to spend billions on our military and hand out aid all over the world while much closer to home we need law enforcement 24/7 right here where we live and I see our public law enforcement as a real bargain for the money spent.

“What's fair? 50%, 70% 90% for salary? Who knows but whatever the amount, it's not enough and NOT enough and not sustainable.”

If it’s “not enough” and “not sustainable” then we the public need to provide “enough”.

[WnP]

Originally Posted by yzernie

"Civil Servant"? In what capacity? If you're a cop review this answer again in "20 to 25 years" and see if your experiences and worn out body says your retirement "seems unrealistic". Laughable.

If you're a cop and any other civil servant, do you really think the same benefits are going to be around in 25 to 30 years? NO. Take a look at the past retirement pensions in LA County and you'll see constant changes in the system.

I followed my pensions status when LA was talking about bankrupt
(and still might) and things are not so airtight when it comes to contracts being guaranteed. One thing I did learn was that city lawyers are looking and lobbying for changes to current retirees.

[yzernie]

Originally Posted by WnP

If you're a cop and any other civil servant, do you really think the same benefits are going to be around in 25 to 30 years? NO. Take a look at the past retirement pensions in LA County and you'll see constant changes in the system.

I followed my pensions status when LA was talking about bankrupt
(and still might) and things are not so airtight when it comes to contracts being guaranteed. One thing I did learn was that city lawyers are looking and lobbying for changes to current retirees.

You didn't address the comment posed to you. Wuuuuuu-sha.

[tbhracing]

Originally Posted by WnP

If you're a cop and any other civil servant, do you really think the same benefits are going to be around in 25 to 30 years? NO. Take a look at the past retirement pensions in LA County and you'll see constant changes in the system.

I followed my pensions status when LA was talking about bankrupt
(and still might) and things are not so airtight when it comes to contracts being guaranteed. One thing I did learn was that city lawyers are looking and lobbying for changes to current retirees.

Please see post #81 and then tell me how CalPERS is going broke with a 50.9 BILLION profit in 2010 AND did better in 2011.

But you did mention "LA" and both LA City and County both have non CalPERS systems, so that may differ.

[penguinofsleep]

Originally Posted by Jack L

Yes, seriously. IMO LEOs are one of the last bastions of civilized hope working the streets and in our houses. We are asking from them to do everything from public education to taking a life if need be (while risking theirs). While many can argue they are also stressed in their work, most do not have the training and/or ability to cover the spectrum of real time speed and efficiency LEOs are expected to perform. Argue what you will but my taxes are well spent on LE and as far as I am concerned, whatever it takes too maintain a realistic retirement for them I’ll gladly help pay for because the alternative is too alarming to contemplate. The stress alone, where seconds often count regarding mortality and morbidity, is something that those that do not walk the walk will never know. I'm speaking of a life long career, not a 2 year combat mission, but a 30 year mission. Knowing each call will be scrutinized by the public, the DA, lawyers and your department is added weight to scene size up and protocol execution. We as citizens are asked to spend billions on our military and hand out aid all over the world while much closer to home we need law enforcement 24/7 right here where we live and I see our public law enforcement as a real bargain for the money spent.

“What's fair? 50%, 70% 90% for salary? Who knows but whatever the amount, it's not enough and NOT enough and not sustainable.”

If it’s “not enough” and “not sustainable” then we the public need to provide “enough”.

This.

As much as I can't stand every other cop I meet or see, they are IMO one of the few careers/people that deserve pensions. I think they just need to do a better job screening and picking who gets to be a cop.

[tyrist]

Originally Posted by penguinofsleep

This.

As much as I can't stand every other cop I meet or see, they are IMO one of the few careers/people that deserve pensions. I think they just need to do a better job screening and picking who gets to be a cop.

You are not alone and the majority of current Officers would agree. Every time city managers lower the background standards to meet staffing goals I cringe. The job itself tends to weed the non hackers out pretty fast but, some slip through for awhile.

[Chontkleer]

Originally Posted by 5shot

Once you retire, they can't take it away. The county, city, state, etc., entered into a binding contract with your labor group to provide the benefit.
For current employees, they would have to renegotiate the previous contract. That's why they usually only make changes for new hires.

This state and country is going to be seeing some big changes over the next decade. There is no such thing as "they can't take it away."

[vintagearms]

Originally Posted by fullrearview

Both San Diego PD and SO have pretty low pay already... Sounds like LE services are going to deteriorate in the years to come.

I dont see that happening. Their will always be those wanting in that are not just looking at pay but the job itself. More money doesn't mean better officers...

[tyrist]

Originally Posted by vintagearms

I dont see that happening. Their will always be those wanting in that are not just looking at pay but the job itself. More money doesn't mean better officers...

Talk to New Orleans about that.

[5shot]

Originally Posted by tyrist

Talk to New Orleans about that.

And Detroit, and several other cities that have low pay, and low hiring standards.

[gumby]

Originally Posted by 5shot

And Detroit, and several other cities that have low pay, and low hiring standards.

I'm a retired deputy sheriff from here but I'm from Detroit and you are spot on. This lowering of pay,bennies and standards will hurt LE and the public in the long run.

[tbhracing]

Originally Posted by Chontkleer

This state and country is going to be seeing some big changes over the next decade. There is no such thing as "they can't take it away."

Can you please cite some specific information on this? I think to make changes at the state level, you would have to change the constitution. I don't foresee that happening and I don't see them "taking it away" any time soon.

[TRICKSTER]

Originally Posted by tbhracing

Can you please cite some specific information on this? I think to make changes at the state level, you would have to change the constitution. I don't foresee that happening and I don't see them "taking it away" any time soon.

Some people are just clueless or just trying to get the LEOs riled up. Best to just ignore them unless they have some supporting documentation to support their claims.

[Chontkleer]

Originally Posted by tbhracing

Can you please cite some specific information on this? I think to make changes at the state level, you would have to change the constitution. I don't foresee that happening and I don't see them "taking it away" any time soon.

No need to cite any information. Public services depend on having an economy. We were running on bubbles until 2007, and running on fumes ever since. Doesn't matter what agreements are made between whom -- if there is no money, there is no money.

[TASK, LLC]

Originally Posted by TRICKSTER

Some people are just clueless or just trying to get the LEOs riled up. Best to just ignore them unless they have some supporting documentation to support their claims.

Trickster has a great point. This thread lacks substance and appears to just be an attempt to stir up issues.

Pensions are part of a total compensation package. They are part of other benefits which go along with negatives.

LEOs get good medical coverage. That's because LEO get exposed to a ton of predicable physical hazards including assault (Use Of Force), disease (physically searching or arresting many different people), traffic collisions (the a large part of time is spent driving), hazardous chemicals (first responder to fires and investigations take you to very interesting places), and industrial haz mat (shooting ranges are dirty!).

When you look at pensions, many just see "at retirement, you get this much money." There are more details in the pension. Pensions all have a "you must work for this amount of time to qualify." This amount of time before you are vested in varied based on the economy. Previously, many had short term "contracts" as low as 10 years. This resulted in several officers in leaving for other agencies after they qualified since they were more experienced. You could go to an agency which pays more or had better benefits, if they LEO was young enough to start over.

Many pensions have increased this time up to 20 years. You are REQUIRED to stay with your SAME agency for a huge amount of time. You CANNOT move, CANNOT leave, CANNOT move to another offer at another agency. Along with the mandatory court appearances, missed holidays, missed birthdays, missed family functions, hard shift schedules, etc, you CANNOT move agencies.

This is a key concept of the pension system. While everyone else moved from Company-A, to work at Company-B, then maybe considered starting up Company-C, the LEO stays at the same agency to receive a pension. While other workers could move around and find the best deal and some made large amounts of money, most LEOs stay at their agency for the surething and a pension compensation package at the end of their career. LE agencies do not offer stock options.

Pension benefits were also negotiated instead of pay increases. They are what they are today based on what was happening back then.

For example, out of an Academy class of approximately 95, there are about half left so many left the agency with little or no pension. None of those who have left are eligible for a full pension and maybe just a few are receiving anything due to the minimum age of 50.

Pensions aren't free gifts. They are earned. LEOs have to live long enough to receive them, and survive in this industry. It is a long, hard journey where many dont receive pension benefits or die very soon after retirement.

[yzernie]

Originally Posted by tbhracing

Simple math-
Fund earned- 63.1 billion + 23 billion in contributions= 86.1 Billion.
Paid out 35.2 billion INCLUDING 33.1 in benefits.. So simple math tells me that 86.1 billion minus 35.2 = 50.9 billion.

Thats all according to the SacBee newspaper (who hates state employees) and the Census Bureau. I didnt make those numbers up and with 50.9 BILLION in profit.

But that was only 2010. What about 2011? Well CalPERS says that on top of those great 2010 numbers, they GAINED in 2011 20.7% and "Return Marks Best Performance in 14 Years". Oh ok, I know you dont believe me, so here is the link- CalPERS Reports Preliminary 2010-11 Fiscal Year Gain of 20.7 Percent

Originally Posted by Chontkleer

No need to cite any information. Public services depend on having an economy. We were running on bubbles until 2007, and running on fumes ever since. Doesn't matter what agreements are made between whom -- if there is no money, there is no money.

But there is a need to cite information so people don't produce uninformed 'opinions' on what is real and what is not. A simple reminder is the CalPers retirement system is its own seperate entity and not solely reliant, and thankfully, on the state budget. The state does however, rape the CalPers system from time to time (as they have done to the Green Sticker monies) for millions of dollars to supplement their uncontrolled spending for handouts to those who do not deserve them.

[sandsnow]

All I can do is quote The Who and say "I hope I die before I get old."
Things will be a lot different for all public employees - sworn and non-sworn in 30 years.
Actually I am going to do something. I am going to contact my rep and tell him how I feel and that they need to win over the public with the truth about public employees. I also think a new crop of association managers with new thinking would help.
Of course I'm safe for the moment and probably for many years into retirement. If something doesn't change though, I see this whole outcry over public employee compensation snowballing out of control. If it doesn't stop I think even current retires will get hit. I hope I am wrong.

[Chontkleer]

Originally Posted by yzernie

But there is a need to cite information so people don't produce uninformed 'opinions' on what is real and what is not. A simple reminder is the CalPers retirement system is its own seperate entity and not solely reliant, and thankfully, on the state budget. The state does however, rape the CalPers system from time to time (as they have done to the Green Sticker monies) for millions of dollars to supplement their uncontrolled spending for handouts to those who do not deserve them.

At the height of the real estate craze there were so many fat brokers and consultants sucking billions out of CalPers and guiding pension dollars into the ether that they were tripping over one another. Now that things are tight, people had better watch that money very very carefully.

As for citing information, 99% of everything people repeat here and elsewhere is just garbage that's printed in the papers and what you hear on the news. If people are dumb enough to do that, and they do, all day, every day, they'd have you thinking that we are "in recovery". "It's slow, and it's going to be tough, but we're in recovery." Um, no. We still print the most commonly used global reserve currency and can keep things running on fumes for a few more years by simply selling ourselves bonds, but that little trick is slowly coming to an end. Bye bye SUV's, bye bye nice summer vacations, bye bye powerboats, bye bye smoking cigars in the jacuzzi.

[TRICKSTER]

Originally Posted by Chontkleer

At the height of the real estate craze there were so many fat brokers and consultants sucking billions out of CalPers and guiding pension dollars into the ether that they were tripping over one another. Now that things are tight, people had better watch that money very very carefully.

As for citing information, 99% of everything people repeat here and elsewhere is just garbage that's printed in the papers and what you hear on the news. If people are dumb enough to do that, and they do, all day, every day, they'd have you thinking that we are "in recovery". "It's slow, and it's going to be tough, but we're in recovery." Um, no. We still print the most commonly used global reserve currency and can keep things running on fumes for a few more years by simply selling ourselves bonds, but that little trick is slowly coming to an end. Bye bye SUV's, bye bye nice summer vacations, bye bye powerboats, bye bye smoking cigars in the jacuzzi.

Not saying the economy isn't in the dumps, but you have yet to provide any statistics and so far all you have been doing is speculating and saying
the sky is falling, the sky is falling.

[tbhracing]

Originally Posted by TRICKSTER

but you have yet to provide any statistics and so far all you have been doing is speculating and saying
the sky is falling, the sky is falling.

The "Working Occupy" types have been doing that for years here. Keep claiming that the sky is falling and it just never does. The anti-pension FUD is almost as bad and inaccurate as the anti-gun statements made by the Liberals

[Chontkleer]

Originally Posted by TRICKSTER

Not saying the economy isn't in the dumps, but you have yet to provide any statistics and so far all you have been doing is speculating and saying
the sky is falling, the sky is falling.

You want statistics? There are no reliable statistics. That is real civics 101.

Here's a statistic: Manufacturing, the engine of economies, is gone.

Here are some more statistics, from the BLS, the organization that is most tasked with making everything look at a lot more rosy than it is:

http://www.bls.gov/lau/stalt.htm

U6 at 20%. You can probably safely double that.

There were, what, reportedly close to 50 million people who received food stamps last year? That's, what... around 15% of the entire population who can't afford to feed themselves? Half the kids?

http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/...nger_facts.htm

Do you understand that even by many official and conservative estimates we are facing a greater crisis than the great depression? We don't have propaganda photos in black and white of people sitting hungry on the stoop with their family yet (well actually we do) or standing in bread lines (food stamps = invisible bread lines).

What got us out of it last time? WWII. God help us if it takes WWIII to get us out of this one.

Stop smirking and take a good look around you.

[TRICKSTER]

Originally Posted by Chontkleer

You want statistics? There are no reliable statistics. That is real civics 101.

Here's a statistic: Manufacturing, the engine of economies, is gone.

Here are some more statistics, from the BLS, the organization that is most tasked with making everything look at a lot more rosy than it is:

http://www.bls.gov/lau/stalt.htm

U6 at 20%. You can probably safely double that.

There were, what, reportedly close to 50 million people who received food stamps last year? That's, what... around 15% of the entire population who can't afford to feed themselves? Half the kids?

http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/...nger_facts.htm

Do you understand that even by many official and conservative estimates we are facing a greater crisis than the great depression? We don't have propaganda photos in black and white of people sitting hungry on the stoop with their family yet (well actually we do) or standing in bread lines (food stamps = invisible bread lines).

What got us out of it last time? WWII. God help us if it takes WWIII to get us out of this one.

Stop smirking and take a good look around you.

Is that Chicken Little in your sig line?

[Chontkleer]

Originally Posted by TRICKSTER

Is that Chicken Little in your sig line?

Chicken Little's worst nightmare.

[tbhracing]

Originally Posted by Chontkleer

You want statistics? There are no reliable statistics. That is real civics 101.

Here's a statistic: Manufacturing, the engine of economies, is gone.

Stop smirking and take a good look around you.

And all of this has to do with LEO's pensions???

As its been shown and proved in here that in 2010, CalPERS came out 50+ BILLON in the black. And had 20+% returns in 2011.

[Californio]

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...,1253101.story

The GASB can't tell governments what benefits to pay or how much to contribute to their plans. Instead, all it can do is tell cities, counties and states how to account for their pension plans in the financial disclosures that the bond market and investors demand. Nevertheless, barring a sharp improvement on Wall Street, those disclosures are likely to be unnerving.
According to a Boston College study, the California public employee pension fund (CalPERS) was 83% funded in 2010 under the old accounting rules, but only 65% funded under the new rules. The state retirement fund for teachers (CalSTRS), which was 71% funded in 2010, would have dropped to 60% or, possibly, 41% if the new rules had been in place.

[Chontkleer]

Originally Posted by tbhracing

And all of this has to do with LEO's pensions???

As its been shown and proved in here that in 2010, CalPERS came out 50+ BILLON in the black. And had 20+% returns in 2011.

Shown and proved? There is nothing shown and proved with regard to CalPers.

http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/...calpers-fraud/

Madoff's investors were apoplectic with disbelief when their year after year 10% return turned out to be a fraud. "Oh my! Can't be! What?!"

"Calpers is the largest public employment pension plan in the country, but that doesn't mean it's a success. Calpers' 0.57% investment return over the past five years was lower than those of 99% of large public funds. Calpers has maybe three-quarters of the money it needs to be fully funded, depending on whether the fund's administrators can earn 7.5% per year on the money they do have. (The state fund for teachers' retirement is in similar straits.)

For years, Calpers has been a political tool, rather than a financial institution. It has placed large chunks of money with diverse managers of hedge funds, private equity and real estate, especially those in California."

http://online.barrons.com/article/SB...mod=BOL_twm_fs

Large pension funds are run by mobsters for the benefit of mobsters and this can trickle down nicely to the contributors and beneficiaries for as long as they can perpetuate "the calpers effect" and other aspects of the con. Those days are coming to an end.

CalPers clutches its pearls: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...officials.html

See bmerson's comment below the post for further illumination: http://billhicksisdead.blogspot.com/...-its-math.html

[5shot]

Why is it that when the economy is bad, no one suggests:
1. Taking away welfare benefits from those who are perfectly capable of working, but choose not to.
2. Taking away food stamps from those who claim they don't have enough income to buy groceries, yet have income for 2 cars, cell phones, big screen TV's, etc.
3. Taking away HUD housing benefits from those who are perfectly capable of working and saving for their own housing.
4. Stop spending billions on health care, free lunches, and education for illegal immigrants.


Five Things to Consider Before Cutting Pension Benefits

http://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-...#ixzz1yvpLe7dj

[Chontkleer]

[QUOTE=5shot;8822865]Why is it that when the economy is bad, no one suggests:
1. Taking away welfare benefits from those who are perfectly capable of working, but choose not to.
2. Taking away food stamps from those who claim they don't have enough income to buy groceries, yet have income for 2 cars, cell phones, big screen TV's, etc.
3. Taking away HUD housing benefits from those who are perfectly capable of working and saving for their own housing.
4. Stop spending billions on health care, free lunches, and education for illegal immigrants.


Just rhetorical? That's pretty much what most people are suggesting.

Some thoughts --

1) why should they work when the rentier class isn't working, simply exploiting them?

2) We need to create a society where people feel good enough about themselves to not go on welfare if they're capable of that.

3) Same as above

4) Completely agree, while at the same time working to create a world where people are able to take care of themselves adequately in their own countries, and where we kick the *** of the hypocrites over here who benefit from illegal labor and decry it in public.

[yzernie]

Reply in blue

Originally Posted by Chontkleer

Just rhetorical? That's pretty much what most people are suggesting.

Some thoughts --

1) why should they work when the rentier class isn't working, simply exploiting them?
Because that is what people do (or supposed to do) as adults. people shouldn't have to be begged to get out and work.

2) We need to create a society where people feel good enough about themselves to not go on welfare if they're capable of that.
Feel good enough about themselves to go work?? Seriously?? This is exactly the wrong mentality with society today. The "Little League" mentality. Even when you are a loser you get a trophy....hogwash.

3) Same as above
Hogwash again

4) Completely agree, while at the same time working to create a world where people are able to take care of themselves adequately in their own countries, and where we kick the *** of the hypocrites over here who benefit from illegal labor and decry it in public.
Most people ARE able to take care of themselves but choose not to. I'm all for the a** kicking!!

[Chontkleer]

We've gone off-topic here, but I think it's important to respond.

- Shouldn't have to be be begged to go out and work: Agree completely. We've failed as a society and we need to clean this mess up. No more blame the victim. (Providing of course that there is work to go out and do. There really isn't that much anymore. We're at the "new normal". Only need so many people flipping burgers, gardening, selling insurance, houses, giving massages. Automated farms and factories are here and we need a whole new way of dealing with all the people, or, we need to reduce the population on a massive scale through limiting reproduction.

- No, no trophies for losers... just create many more winners.

- Hogwash, hogwash.

- Again, we are responsible for able-bodied individuals not working. We may choose not to take responsibility for it, in which case nothing will change. I'd prefer to change it than just roll around casting blame and grumbling.

[cacop]

Originally Posted by Jeepergeo

Granted, the job is not for everyone, but there remains a huge line of potenPD job openings get a huge number of applicants, so at some point, supply and demand needs to prevail when it comes to wages and benefits.tially interested and qualified candidates.

If concessions are not made, the alternative will be to cut positions, and while undesirable to many if not most taxpayers, they are likely to accept the cuts since the trough you mentioned has run dry.

It is interesting to see government employee unions selling out future government employees, creating two tier systems of benefits. Imagine having to rely on a guy covering your back that a few years earlier you voted to screw with a lower tier of pay and benefits. I suppose you could assign partners based on what benefit tier they were on.

The radio news today (John and Ken) reported like 30% of teachers and like 50% of other government union candidates in Wisconsin are refusing to join and pay dues. Those numbers seem too high, but that is what the flame masters reported today.

I don't know where you work but where I do we have a shortage of applicants. We are authorized for 94. We have not been over 90 for two and a half years. By the time you are getting ready for Thanksgiving dinner it will be three years. We have also given the city every concession they have asked for. We are currently taking an 18% pay cut.

With laterals we have a 7% success rate. Entry level 4%. Overall 5%. That is just to get hired. We loose about 10% of those to the academy. We have never turned away a qualified applicant. The city thought they would be having all kinds of laid off officers coming to them.

Part of the problem is that people just don't want to make the commitment it takes. I had a ride along thant blanched at the idea of being dressed ready to go at 0730after driving a hour to the academy after being up until 2200-2300 studing for tests, polishing brass, etc. An officer of ours that was in the academy in 2009 had a realtor in his class that said he got into LE because it had good pay and was a stable job. He was late every day for a week and then quit.

LE has long stopped being a job you can half ***.

[yzernie]

Originally Posted by Chontkleer

- Again, we are responsible for able-bodied individuals not working. We may choose not to take responsibility for it, in which case nothing will change. I'd prefer to change it than just roll around casting blame and grumbling.

We?...as in who? It certainly isn't me that discourages able bodied people to go get a job. Are jobs scarce?...of course they are but many people think many of the jobs available are 'beneath' them. I say suck it up Alice and take the job just for the sake of being a productive member of the community instead of sucking the free teet. But I know, that is old school logic.

[WnP]

The bottom line is that everybody who earned their pensions should have a right to it. At the same time you have to be vigilant about what lies your union or city officials feed you. Wall St. weren't the only one's playing games.

I recommend everybody keep an eye on the City of Stockton.

[cacop]

Originally Posted by WnP

The bottom line is that everybody who earned their pensions should have a right to it. At the same time you have to be vigilant about what lies your union or city officials feed you. Wall St. weren't the only one's playing games.

I recommend everybody keep an eye on the City of Stockton.

Bankruptcy will probably help because the books will be open now.

[Databyter]

Originally Posted by yzernie

You have info people need to know?...lay it out.



^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^

I'm so disgusted with Sacramento subscribing to the NObama game plan of continuing to rape the paychecks of those who are actually productive citizens of the communities.

Reckless monetization of the debt, and doubling of it in just a few years.

Losing the Dollar as the international trade currency (soon).

Increasing spending and government growth in a retarded and criminal attempt to "create Jobs".

Government cannot create jobs, never could. It is not a money maker, it is a tax burden. The BEST it can do is not KILL jobs, and that is done mostly by being honest and staying out of the way of people who want to succeed.

No map required to any who are good at math.

It is no longer if, but when.