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  #1  
Old 06-09-2012, 11:55 AM
cantcme cantcme is offline
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Default your LEO pension cut

What do you think a PERS retirement will be 5 years from now?


http://nbcpolitics.msnbc.msn.com/_ne...sion-cuts?lite
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Old 06-09-2012, 2:48 PM
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I know pensions are being negotiated lower & later for new LEOs in CA (2.5@55 vs 3@50, etc) but can they reduce retirements for those already on the clock?
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Old 06-09-2012, 2:58 PM
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Originally Posted by tanksoldier View Post
I know pensions are being negotiated lower & later for new LEOs in CA (2.5@55 vs 3@50, etc) but can they reduce retirements for those already on the clock?
So far, no. But, Representative Niello keeps putting up a bill to try and cut the pension of current workers who were promised otherwise.
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Old 06-09-2012, 4:26 PM
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Representative Niello keeps putting up a bill to try and cut the pension of current workers who were promised otherwise.
...and then pay legal expenses when the state gets sued for breach of contract.
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Old 06-09-2012, 7:42 PM
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I see CALPERS getting neutered rather soon. You have to ask what would happen if Cali went bankrupt as well? Can't get blood from a program that is included in a BK brother....
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Old 06-09-2012, 7:54 PM
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You better be making financial preparations for reduced benefits/pay. It will happen.
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Old 06-09-2012, 8:06 PM
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Both San Diego PD and SO have pretty low pay already... Sounds like LE services are going to deteriorate in the years to come.

Funny, I haven't seen anyone give two ****s about Kalifornia's two biggest fiscal drains... Welfare and illegal immigration.
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Old 06-09-2012, 8:28 PM
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And yet every parolee I stop has an EBT card.

The welfare state is the problem. Not the people that suit up every day to do the Lord's work.
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Old 06-09-2012, 8:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fullrearview View Post
Both San Diego PD and SO have pretty low pay already... Sounds like LE services are going to deteriorate in the years to come.

Funny, I haven't seen anyone give two ****s about Kalifornia's two biggest fiscal drains... Welfare and illegal immigration.
Let's throw in Medicare, section 8, WIC, General Relief, etc
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Old 06-09-2012, 8:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cantcme View Post
You better be making financial preparations for reduced benefits/pay. It will happen.
You have info people need to know?...lay it out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fullrearview View Post
Funny, I haven't seen anyone give two ****s about Kalifornia's two biggest fiscal drains... Welfare and illegal immigration.
^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^

I'm so disgusted with Sacramento subscribing to the NObama game plan of continuing to rape the paychecks of those who are actually productive citizens of the communities.
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  #11  
Old 06-10-2012, 6:01 AM
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CalPERS will require new hires to pay more into the system and receive less. Those working may have to pay more to receive what has been promised. Those already retired will not see changes except possibly to their COLA. The issue is the State of CA promised to pay their share then never put those funds into an account for pensions and also over spent on many other programs. Now they complain they do not have the money but it was the State who agreed to these contracts and now is posturing to reneged on them.

If CalPERS ever went down, so would the entire USA. Pension funds are recycled back into the economy and CalPERS $ is huge.

The historic game of divide and conquer is at hand. Low information voters get railed up and often vote against their own self interest. Those that actually control our destiny see us a a pair of arms and legs to make them even more powerful. Not much new here only recycled politics from decades and even centuries past.

If the public actually thinks our woes are caused by LE, teachers and firefighters, then there is no sense discussing the issues with them. Those that have adequate and educated gray matter functioning are looking to those few on top of the game and see that is it being played in a devious fashion.
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  #12  
Old 06-10-2012, 7:04 AM
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I dont think it will go anywhere, Ca law states since 1940 the "benefits granted on the first day of employment are protected"
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  #13  
Old 06-10-2012, 7:31 AM
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I see a real problem coming. When it takes seven new employees to pay for one retiree the system can not be sustained.

I am guessing the courts will end up saying if you have ten years in todays retirement system we will end this contract and pay you at the rate of the first contract for the ten years and now if you wish to continue working you will sign the new contract at this rate.

I don't believe the enforcement or fire are the problem I do believe their contract is pretty appealing to those that don't have it.

The problem is the run away build your own empire within the system. If you look at what happened when they made CALFIRE the overhead crushed the hose jockey on the front line. This is true with every system from Agriculture inspections at the border to CHP size and managemnt growth. What does CALFIRE need with an enforcement branch with cop cars weapons communications and post requirements???? There are 15 current enforcement communities that could fill this requirement if it exists.

The solution is to set a mandate of first line supervisors must supervise at least twenty employees. Second line supervisors must supervise at least ten first line supervisors and Directors must supervise at least twenty second line supervisors.

This would cut most departments top structure enough to make the state debt free in two years.

If a train to LA was a good idea get Buffet to build it. You can bet these things are junk filled make a job for uncle buck.

I hope all CALpERS employees keep voting for the left wing it will hasten our trip to fixing the problem.
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Old 06-10-2012, 9:31 AM
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Quote:
The solution is to set a mandate of first line supervisors must supervise at least twenty employees.
So, using the example of a fire engine: Does an engine not get a supervisor, or does somebody have to accept supervisory responsibility without getting paid for it?

The problem isn't with people whop are working and earning their pension. The problem is with people who are not.
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  #15  
Old 06-10-2012, 10:20 AM
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Is the financial situation (especially debt) in this state getting better or worse? Are more productive businesses moving into California or out? Is public opinion for the PERS retirement or against it? Is California heading toward bankruptcy or away from it? Are entitlements growing or shrinking? You live in a state where a large part of the voting public wants to increas entitlements and decrease benefits to the people that run toward danger while they run away.


Watch and see for yourself. Public will and the state's finances will determine what happens to us. It will not be determined by laws or ethical issues. I have worked very hard for a very long time and I'm getting more concerned every month.

As for the question about do I know something: Stockton, Sac PD, Sac SO, San Jose and many others are laying off cops. Cops all over the state are getting pay cuts in the form of salary, benefits and PERS contributions.

Remember there are many ways to impact your retirement. Medical, active duty pay reduction cuts your 3% formula. If your agency was paying your PERS contribution and then started taking it out of your check, that not only reduces your pay by 9% but your retirement as well. The 9% your agency is/was paying is counted as income and therefore as part of your last highest year. If you are paying the 9% it is coming out of what you have been payed and not figured in as 9% more pay.

Last edited by cantcme; 06-10-2012 at 10:22 AM..
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  #16  
Old 06-10-2012, 10:25 AM
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True. And while those without work or dead end jobs go after public employees, the huge beast in the room is not us, it is the beast in the link I supplied. These numbers are not just unsustainable, but it can never be paid due to interest and continued spending. What I see coming is something like all nations that are under water will be rebooted. There will be some political name for it. I can only assume the crisis will be handled in a way the nations of the world land as easy as possible given the situation. The alternative is chaos and no one wins with that. Even the 1% folks would be taken down in a world of utter chaos.

Fiscal crisis ahead even if there were no public employees.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/
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  #17  
Old 06-10-2012, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fullrearview View Post
Funny, I haven't seen anyone give two ****s about Kalifornia's two biggest fiscal drains... Welfare and illegal immigration.
Maybe the LE and teachers unions ought to raise a stink about it, they seem to have some pull with state legislators, at least, more so than any conservative political group.
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  #18  
Old 06-10-2012, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Manolito View Post

I am guessing the courts will end up saying if you have ten years in todays retirement system we will end this contract and pay you at the rate of the first contract for the ten years and now if you wish to continue working you will sign the new contract at this rate.
Already been handled in "County of Orange Vs. Orange County Retirement System". Orange County sued OCERS, and AOCDS (Association of Orange County Deputy Sheriff's) claiming that the 3% @ 50 retirement benefits should only be paid for from the time it was approved (2001), and all other service time should be calculated using the formula from the retirement system prior to 2001.
This argument presented by the County of Orange was lost in the superior court, in two appeals courts, and finally in the California Supreme Court a couple years ago. Orange County wasted 2 million dollars of taxpayers money trying to take away a retirement benefit that they had previously agreed to. They also had to pay AOCDS a million dollars for legal costs to defend the suit.
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:27 AM
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My 3%@50 retirement is intact and not going anywhere. Additionally, the SD and SJ ballot initiatives are already beig challenged in court and the cost to fight the will outrun any savings.

I know a majority of the members here are bitter and jealous over the earned pensions, but it just is not going to change.
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:34 AM
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I am in pers. I hope you are right. I strongly believe you are wrong.
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by cantcme View Post
I am in pers. I hope you are right. I strongly believe you are wrong.
Once you retire, they can't take it away. The county, city, state, etc., entered into a binding contract with your labor group to provide the benefit.
For current employees, they would have to renegotiate the previous contract. That's why they usually only make changes for new hires.
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Old 06-10-2012, 12:20 PM
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For some reason, public safety employees seem to make a 'soft target' that legislators can openly criticize as the reason for budget shortfalls. It would be too politically incorrect for politicians (even weak California Republican RINO's) to publicly identify the welfare state and government giveaways to generations of unproductive families as the real problem.
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Old 06-10-2012, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fullrearview View Post
Both San Diego PD and SO have pretty low pay already... Sounds like LE services are going to deteriorate in the years to come.

Funny, I haven't seen anyone give two ****s about Kalifornia's two biggest fiscal drains... Welfare and illegal immigration.
Can't touch those, that's where the reliable votes are.
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Old 06-10-2012, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5shot View Post
Once you retire, they can't take it away. The county, city, state, etc., entered into a binding contract with your labor group to provide the benefit.
For current employees, they would have to renegotiate the previous contract. That's why they usually only make changes for new hires.
That is my understanding too. I'm pretty confident that my 3 @ 50 is safe...although they might play with the COLA.

I feel for the guys still working. 3 @ 55 isn't horrible, but to raise the age and lower the percentage would be tough

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbhracing
I know a majority of the members here are bitter and jealous over the earned pensions, but it just is not going to change.
The thing that I ask folks to remember is that we earned it...they chose to take a job that paid a lot more money when times were good, but was more dependent on the economy. If they wanted more security, they should have taken my job when it was paying a lot less. It's not like I'm still making six figures
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Old 06-10-2012, 12:40 PM
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As of June 30, 2010, there were approximately 183,000 state retirees. The average monthly pension benefit is $2,220 per month.

This is from 2 years ago. Keep in mind, this is Average. The ones that get me are retired disabled working full time somewhere else with no physical restrictions.
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Old 06-10-2012, 12:46 PM
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Contracts mean absolutely nothing when the money runs out. Look up unfunded liabilities.
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Old 06-10-2012, 1:33 PM
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So far, no. But, Representative Niello keeps putting up a bill to try and cut the pension of current workers who were promised otherwise.
Happens in the private sector. A bud had a 30% cut in his retirement from United Airlines. Even the slop trough of the taxpayers has a bottom. but my cousin was a cop ,retired and died from a heart attack 10 years after retirement and I wouldn't want to be a cop for twice the pay.

Last edited by Sunday; 06-10-2012 at 1:38 PM..
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Old 06-10-2012, 1:49 PM
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That's the thing that kills me here. The members here who did NOT pay their dues and go through a para-military academy, go to college and then hit the streets working weekends and holidays think they they should get the same benefits and pension plan for working a safe cubical farm job.

I say apply, endure and pay dues like us in public safety. Otherwise, let us do our HARDER jobs and enjoy the pension play that WE PAID FOR. Some of us (not all) pay 100% for our pensions at NO taxpayer expense and rather you just be quiet if you still don't get how we got here or how the system works.

Last edited by retired; 06-10-2012 at 6:58 PM..
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Old 06-10-2012, 2:21 PM
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I think most of us in this conversation are pers or alads. Im pers and was alads. The question isnt whether we deserve it or what is fair/right. The question is whats going to happen. My point is that there are no sure things so have your finances in order.
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Old 06-10-2012, 2:26 PM
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Those of us that are good at what we do are still around because we prepare for worst case scenario. That mindset should go beyond just watching the bad guys hands. Keep your debt down, live within your means and make decisions based on fact and history not emotion.
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Old 06-10-2012, 3:03 PM
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Easy for you to say. Some of us are facing a 5% pay cut AGAIN. Tired of this crap and seeing desk jockey members here in their safe cubical demanding that we lose our pensions and strip away collective bargaining rights.

The pension whiners here are no better than the Occupy Movement participants.

Last edited by retired; 06-10-2012 at 7:06 PM..
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Old 06-10-2012, 3:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cantcme View Post
Contracts mean absolutely nothing when the money runs out. Look up unfunded liabilities.
Like I said, the California Supreme Court has ruled on this, and one of Orange County's main arguments was "unfunded liabilities".

From the Ca. Supreme Court:
First, the Court found that the crediting of
prior service at the increased rate did not violate
the restriction under the California Constitution
on a local public entity incurring “indebtedness
or liability … exceeding in any year the income
and revenue provided for such year … ” The
Court agreed with a 1982 Attorney General
opinion, dealing with the analogous
constitutional provision limiting the State’s
indebtedness, which opined that an “unfunded
liability”such as future pension obligations is
not a legally enforceable obligation, but is
nothing more than an actuarial evaluation of
projected future events. Thus, because the
unfunded liability created by the crediting of
prior service is nothing more than a projection,
it cannot violate the municipal debt limitation in
the California Constitution.
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  #33  
Old 06-10-2012, 3:58 PM
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Everyone county / city is hurting... we ll get through it. Im not in cal pers, My dept has its not retirement 3% at 50 which we got not that long ago. Unlike cal pers we're doing "ok" however we do need to scale back. We are planing on chaning 3% at 55 which isnt that big of a deal, most of us dont retire at 50... Ill have to work till im 53 to have 99%. Last year i took a hit in the pocket, not very happy about it but im VERY happy to still have a job. Its pretty crappy to read the newspaper everyday and read that this person wants to say the country and take our retirement away. We're not the problem. I grantee if counties and citys want to change our retirement to a 401k they will see a big difference in the type of employees they hire. Like most people on this thread we have put blood and sweat into our job. If "they" understood what its like to be away from home, missing birthdays, working holidays, working in extreme weather, extreme danger and god forbid the possibility of you never coming home and seeing your family...
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Old 06-10-2012, 4:08 PM
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Easy for who to say? Im losing 9% in one year. Nobody in this post is saying take anything away. We are saying we want to keep our benefits and we are aware they are under attack.
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Old 06-10-2012, 4:39 PM
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Originally Posted by tbhracing View Post
Yep, the pension grabbers are pretty much like the Occupy Movement.
Not really, the "pension grabbers" aren't out there clogging up the city and squatting on public property while they trash the place and "protest" to power a movement that offers no real solutions. For the most part, they're hard working tax payers who are sick of being bent over by the state and extorted to pay for things they had no say in and do not agree with. The "pension grabbers'" angst may be somewhat misguided at times, but, again, to compare these people to the occupy movement takes a far stretch of the imagination, they're damn near polar opposites.

Personally, I realize that the majority of state workers aren't making the lavish salary and pensions that the media tends to sensationalize. On the other hand, when it's YOUR tax moneys going to pay for such absurd and lavish pay and benefits that some enjoy and abuse, you tend to want to kill the problem at the head and the little guys who get hurt in the process are mostly collateral damage. You can thank the greedy people who milked the system to get pay and benefits that are far beyond their actual worth for the vitriol that's spewed toward government workers by the taxpaying public, but don't attack the tax payer, because their gripe is legitimate.
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Old 06-10-2012, 5:05 PM
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Somebody needs to work on reading comprehension
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Old 06-10-2012, 5:09 PM
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Just to answer the shots across my bow.
1. I am retired and very happy with the retirement I receive and it is not a State retirement.
2. I am not jealous of what any working person can get them to pay.........
3. I think trained professionals don't need the supervision others require. I believe in work leaders over first line supervisors and see little benefit with supervisors managing four or five people.
4. I have a Son who is a detective and I am interested in him getting the best retirement he can possibly get without killing the golden Goose.
5. I fought on the ground in a war for two tours, I worked and raised a family without ever drawing a single unemployment check during my years of work. If you think that doesn't give me the right to question how my tax dollars are being spent then you are a very special person.
Respectfully,
Bill
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  #38  
Old 06-10-2012, 5:11 PM
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Kerplow Kerplow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cantcme View Post
Somebody needs to work on reading comprehension
Have I miscomprehended something?
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Originally Posted by MelvinoelGreat** View Post
My friend, your Chargers sure are looking good tonight. They are only losing by 14 at the half, not to bad my friend.
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  #39  
Old 06-10-2012, 5:14 PM
sandsnow sandsnow is offline
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[QUOTE=Kerplow;8734034]For the most part, they're hard working tax payers who are sick of being bent over by the state and extorted to pay for things they had no say in and do not agree with.
QUOTE]

Actually they did have a say in part of this crisis. In 1984 the voters (taxpayers) enacted Prop 21 which allowed Calpers to diversify investments. Some are of the opinion that Prop 21 played a big roll in where we are now. Of course hindsight is 20/20.

Do a google search under 1984 Prop 21
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  #40  
Old 06-10-2012, 5:18 PM
tbhracing tbhracing is offline
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To the member that reminded me of the OCSD case- THANK YOU. I will share that with my people. I forgot about that little nugget. With that in mind, I think our 3%@50 is safe.

And if someone is poking at me regarding reading comprehension- no, I am good. I am just tired of the members here attacking us when most of them are ignorant and just don't get it.

Thanks
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