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  #1  
Old 04-21-2012, 5:06 PM
kingfamous kingfamous is offline
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Default qualifying distance for pistols

What's the normal qualifying distance for pistols? Is it different for 9mm and. 45. ?
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  #2  
Old 04-21-2012, 5:12 PM
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It's the same for any pistol caliber and the distances range from (police qualifying anyways) one to 25yds.
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Old 04-21-2012, 5:15 PM
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What's the requirements to qualify at 25 yards
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Old 04-21-2012, 5:21 PM
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hit the paper target 26/30 times I think
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Old 04-21-2012, 5:22 PM
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Your question is kind of like asking, "How far and fast do you have to run to qualify?"

It depends on what kind of shooting you are doing. Police officers usually have to qualify with their service pistol. Some people have to qualify with a handgun in order to get a concealed handgun permit. Each agency might have different requirements to qualify. The NRA has different qualification requirements for all of the different handgun shooting sports and different qualification levels within those sports.
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  #6  
Old 04-21-2012, 5:27 PM
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I just want something to compare to as a reference to see how good or bad I am shooting
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Old 04-21-2012, 5:27 PM
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Police qualifications?

It is much more complicated than that. It varies from academy to academy but it usually goes something like this...

You shoot a silhouette target (human shaped target). You perform certain drills at certain distances within a certain time frame. As in less than a second or two depending on the drill. You will be working from the holster. As in draw and fire a head shot, a controlled pair, a non-standard response, etc. You will start right in front of the target, shoot a drill, then reholster and move back to the next set distance and shoot another drill and so on. You have to perform the drills correctly or you loose points. They will be watching you like a hawk the entire time. Some drills, like malfunction clearance drills do not even involve shooting but can cost you points. At the end your total is added up. You get certain number of points based on where the hits are on the target. If you hit outside the human shape, it counts as a miss. Fire after the time is up and it counts as a miss.

If you really want a leg up, take a 4 Day Defensive Course from one the big name schools. It will be expensive, and require travel, but it is as close to what you will learn at the academy or more intensive as you spend 8 hours a day for all four days at the range. Everyone I know who has done this has done exceedingly well at either boot-camp or their academy.

Last edited by tacticalcity; 04-21-2012 at 5:36 PM..
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Old 04-21-2012, 5:28 PM
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My CCW class requirement was 30 shots at 15 yards on a standard NRA target (7-10). You had to score a 255 or better to "pass".
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Old 04-21-2012, 6:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IVth Horseman View Post
My CCW class requirement was 30 shots at 15 yards on a standard NRA target (7-10). You had to score a 255 or better to "pass".
Good info. Not sure which NRA standard target you mean, was it a bullseye target?

I just did a quick search for any CCW test requirements, and although it seems it varies depending on what county you're in, none of the ones I found involved shooting past 7 yards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfamous View Post
I just want something to compare to as a reference to see how good or bad I am shooting
At 7 yards your shots should all be in one big ragged hole.

My personal entirely subjective standard for acceptable precision in a service handgun is 3" groups at 25.
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Old 04-21-2012, 10:15 PM
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The CCW class that I took uses the B-21 target and fire from 15 yds to 3 yds. You have to hit the center mass that resemble a milk bottle shape 40 out of 50 rounds. It consists of firng while standing, kneeling, using strong hand and weak hand. Of course all the stages have time limit but it is more than enough.

Firing unsupported using any pistol will be hard to achieve a grouping of 3" at 25yds. 3" group in 25ft is more reasonable.
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Old 04-21-2012, 10:46 PM
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Qualifier for Massad Ayoob's MAG-40 class:
  • 6 rounds weak hand only at 4 yards
  • 6 rounds strong hand only at 4 yards
  • 12 rounds (6 rounds then reload) free style at 7 yards
  • 18 rounds (6 rounds from a squatting position, 6 rounds from high kneeling and 6 rounds from low kneeling) at 10 yards
  • 18 rounds (6 rounds Weaver, 6 rounds Chapman, 6 rounds Isosceles) at 15 yards
The standard IPSC target is used with major scoring (5 points for A zone, 4 for C and 3 for D). Magazines were loaded with 6 rounds, so a reload was required after each 6 rounds. All reloads were "on the clock" except between the weak hand and strong hand strings. While every stage had a time limit, it was reasonably generous. Possible is 300, and passing is 225.
At Gunsite for the Intermediate Handgun class we shot the following as part of the final evalution:
  • 3 yards, single shot to the head, 1.5 seconds with movement (a step to the left or to the right), performed twice

  • 7 yards, two rounds to center of mass, 1.5 seconds with movement (a step to the left or to the right), performed once

  • 10 yards, two rounds to center of mass, 2 seconds with movement (a step to the left or to the right), performed once

  • 25 yards, two rounds to center of mass, 3.5 seconds with movement (a step then kneeling), performed once

  • 35 yards, two rounds to center of mass, 7 seconds with movement (a step then dropping to rollover prone), performed once

  • Tactical El Presidente for time and score. Par time is 5 seconds. (At Gunsite this exercise is: Starting facing up range, with a loaded and holstered weapon, from three targets at a distance of 10 yards; then on the signal, the shooter turns, presents his weapon, engages two targets with one round each, the third target with two rounds, and then re-engages the first two targets with one more round each.)
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  #12  
Old 04-22-2012, 3:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrOrange View Post
At 7 yards your shots should all be in one big ragged hole.

My personal entirely subjective standard for acceptable precision in a service handgun is 3" groups at 25.
HA! That's realistic [/sarcasm]

At 7 yards (which is where I spend some time practicing) my ragged hole starts to develop after about 25+ rounds (certainly not 3-5). 25 yards...I am glad to hit the target. 3 in groups is approaching the guns accuracy. Unless you are talking about using a bench rest and target pistol/technique, that is crazy talk.
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Old 04-22-2012, 9:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Moto4Fun View Post
HA! That's realistic [/sarcasm]

At 7 yards (which is where I spend some time practicing) my ragged hole starts to develop after about 25+ rounds (certainly not 3-5).
I'm not sure why you're being sarcastic, he didn't specify the speed he was shooting. If you can't put 3-5 rounds into <1" at 7 yards shooting at a moderate rate of 2 shots/sec, you should be working on your technique.

Quote:
25 yards...I am glad to hit the target. 3 in groups is approaching the guns accuracy. Unless you are talking about using a bench rest and target pistol/technique, that is crazy talk.
[/QUOTE]
That isn't even close to a good service pistol's accuracy

A good pistol shot can handhold 3-4" groups at 50 yards and shoot < 1.5" groups off a bench or from a roll over prone position.

A reasonable group, at 25 yards would be 6", the generous center of a IDPA target is 8". Just for reference, a paper dinner plate is 8", the center (flat part) is 6"
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Old 04-22-2012, 9:35 AM
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Quote:
At Gunsite for the Intermediate Handgun class we shot the following as part of the final evalution:

3 yards, single shot to the head, 1.5 seconds with movement (a step to the left or to the right), performed twice
I had a hard time with that...I could get on target, but couldn't consistently break the shot before they turned away. I had to really analyze my technique to figure out why. I found that I was very slow reacting to the turning targets and I was looking for too fine a sight picture.
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Old 04-22-2012, 5:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
I had a hard time with that...I could get on target, but couldn't consistently break the shot before they turned away. I had to really analyze my technique to figure out why. I found that I was very slow reacting to the turning targets and I was looking for too fine a sight picture.
I was having trouble with it too. Found I was too slow getting the gun out of the holster (and I think some wasted body movement didn't help). After working on it over few evenings back at hotel (dry fire), I was just able to make it.
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Old 04-22-2012, 6:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moto4Fun View Post
HA! That's realistic [/sarcasm]

At 7 yards (which is where I spend some time practicing) my ragged hole starts to develop after about 25+ rounds (certainly not 3-5). 25 yards...I am glad to hit the target. 3 in groups is approaching the guns accuracy. Unless you are talking about using a bench rest and target pistol/technique, that is crazy talk.
Well, I did say it was my personal entirely subjective standard for acceptable precision in a service handgun. An appropriately expensive bullseye level 1911 will go into 1.5" at 50.

I don't consider myself a great shot. Great would be somebody like Jack Weaver, who could print 8" groups at 100 yards DA, SWS with a K-38.
(That means double-action, standing without support.)

Perhaps it's a combination of luck of the draw and minimal sample size (we're talking half a dozen guns) but I've never shot a S&W revolver that wouldn't go into 2" or less at 25, SWS, with ammo it liked, and that includes a 640.

Maybe you just got a lemon with your particular sidearm. What I feel we should aspire to is to shoot up to the gun. That is, if you can only get 6" groups at 25 benched and taking your time, then you should try to get 6" groups SWS, and then maybe during a match. And yes, if you can barely stay on the paper at 25, you definitely need more practice.



fiddletown, that's some good reference info for general competency, from two of the three schools I most respect, the other being Thunder Ranch. I'm C&Ping that stuff!
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Old 04-22-2012, 7:14 PM
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Shoot an IDPA classifier. Either join the IDPA and do it, or set it up at your local club. You will have an idea of how you did against 50,000 other shooters.
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Old 04-23-2012, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrOrange View Post
Good info. Not sure which NRA standard target you mean, was it a bullseye target?

I just did a quick search for any CCW test requirements, and although it seems it varies depending on what county you're in, none of the ones I found involved shooting past 7 yards.



At 7 yards your shots should all be in one big ragged hole.

My personal entirely subjective standard for acceptable precision in a service handgun is 3" groups at 25.
A 3 inch group at 25 yards.. The last time I checked, 25 yards is flippin' FAR.
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Old 04-23-2012, 11:45 AM
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It's only half the distance to 50 yards, which used to be a standard LE qualification distance when we were issued revolvers...and we shot DA at that distance
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Old 04-23-2012, 11:47 AM
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25 yards? Hope you miss and have your lawyer's number if you don't.

Last edited by paul0660; 04-23-2012 at 12:30 PM..
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Old 04-23-2012, 11:55 AM
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Maybe the ranges you all go to got their measurements screwed up. Or maybe I've lost my mind. The way I see it, if a law enforcement officer chooses to fire his/her pistol at a target 50 or even 25 YARDS away, he/she is crazy/stupid.
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Old 04-23-2012, 12:06 PM
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25 yards - In my neighborhood the houses are set back 40 feet from the edge of the street. They have side entry 3-car garages and the wing fencing sits 30+ feet back from the front of the house.

If an officer parks on the street, starts up the driveway to the house and an arm suspect comes out the gate in the side yard, the shot offered is right around 25 yards

I doubt the ranges have mis-measured their distances, Bullseye shooters regularly shoot one handed at both 25 and 50 yards
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Old 04-23-2012, 12:22 PM
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25 yards..
http://www.dayattherange.com/wp-cont...blank-0231.jpg

3 inch grouping (10 rds) on the far target using regular sights from a handgun?! Looks nearly impossible Of course a select few "bullseye shooters" may be able to with relative ease, but I just ain't buying it.
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Old 04-23-2012, 12:24 PM
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And I shoot regularly with one hand too, but I don't achieve 3 inch groups @ 25 YARDS
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Old 04-23-2012, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCF View Post
The CCW class that I took uses the B-21 target and fire from 15 yds to 3 yds. You have to hit the center mass that resemble a milk bottle shape 40 out of 50 rounds. It consists of firng while standing, kneeling, using strong hand and weak hand. Of course all the stages have time limit but it is more than enough.
This is similar to the US Navy M9 course. It's not hard to ace it.
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Old 04-23-2012, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tal3nt View Post
...maybe I've lost my mind. The way I see it, if a law enforcement officer chooses to fire his/her pistol at a target 50 or even 25 YARDS away, he/she is crazy/stupid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
...In my neighborhood the houses are set back 40 feet from the edge of the street...

...If an officer parks on the street, starts up the driveway to the house and an arm suspect comes out the gate in the side yard, the shot offered is right around 25 yards...
In addition to what 9mmepiphany said, there's a difference between engaging a threat at 25 to 50 yards, and devoting some training and practice time to shooting at the longer distances.

Shooting at longer distances is important for assessing, developing and maintaining your basic marksmanship skills. And if you have to engage an actual threat, even at more normal "fighting" distances, basic marksmanship skills will help.
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Old 04-23-2012, 1:11 PM
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Most CA CCW classes = 3, 5, 7 yards. Some go out to 15 yards. Think about a 8" diameter paper plate. Get your rounds inside of it and you are good to go. Some CCW classes do not even ask for this much ( within a 12” square configuration). LE and security qualifying is much more detailed as others had said. As you get comfortable with your handgun, you will no doubt start training for longer shots.

CA instructors warn........ if you shoot someone at a greater distance than 15 yards you had better have a air tight legal scenario for the DA and jury (civil suit) to accept.
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Old 04-23-2012, 2:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack L View Post
Most CA CCW classes = 3, 5, 7 yards. Some go out to 15 yards. Think about a 8" diameter paper plate. Get your rounds inside of it and you are good to go. Some CCW classes do not even ask for this much ( within a 12” square configuration). LE and security qualifying is much more detailed as others had said. As you get comfortable with your handgun, you will no doubt start training for longer shots.

CA instructors warn........ if you shoot someone at a greater distance than 15 yards you had better have a air tight legal scenario for the DA and jury (civil suit) to accept.
15 yard self-defense? *this is a hypothetical* I was on a 4 lane surface street. There was no cover within 30 ft, I was crossing the street. He was firing towards me. I returned fire and hit him. There was no way I could be assured of reaching cover before he shot me.

People presume you can outrun bullets though, or go like Neo in the matrix,so they would probably convict anyways.
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Old 04-23-2012, 3:17 PM
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Alameda County seems to use 25 yards for CCW.
10 stage course of fire. 5 rounds each at (yardage)

25, 25, 15, 15, 15, 7, 7, 7, 5, 5
B21 target - 70% to pass
First 25 yd and 15 yard stages are slow fire. All others are rapid fire.

(BTW, for those in the know... how 'rapid' is rapid fire)
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Old 04-23-2012, 4:22 PM
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Everyone has different quals as has been stated. The one I just did a couple months ago had firing points at 3, 7, 15 and 25 yards. You got varying points depending on where you hit the torso (or head during failure drills) and zero points for hitting white or getting off paper. Was mainly speed drills at 3 yards, speed drills/failure drills at 7 yards, shooting from cover (standing and kneeling) at 15 yards and shooting from cover standing at 25 yards.
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Old 04-23-2012, 8:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tal3nt View Post
25 yards..
http://www.dayattherange.com/wp-cont...blank-0231.jpg

3 inch grouping (10 rds) on the far target using regular sights from a handgun?! Looks nearly impossible Of course a select few "bullseye shooters" may be able to with relative ease, but I just ain't buying it.
Just practice actually. These 4 shots were done without putting the gun down. Notice though, it is a HIGH CONTRAST target. If that was a B21 target all black at 25 yards I likely couldn't do it. I might group, but not center punch the 10 ring.

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Old 04-23-2012, 9:50 PM
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Frontsight defensive class requires you to fire a controlled pair at center mass at 15 "meter" from holster in 1.5 second.
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Old 04-24-2012, 6:48 PM
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Frontsight defensive class requires you to fire a controlled pair at center mass at 15 "meter" from holster in 1.5 second.
See now that's fairly easy
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Old 04-24-2012, 6:50 PM
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Quote:
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Just practice actually. These 4 shots were done without putting the gun down. Notice though, it is a HIGH CONTRAST target. If that was a B21 target all black at 25 yards I likely couldn't do it. I might group, but not center punch the 10 ring.

Nice shooting Snoopy. I guess you also have an upper hand with that 1911 trigger. I shoot Glocks
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Old 04-25-2012, 8:08 AM
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Nice shooting Snoopy. I guess you also have an upper hand with that 1911 trigger. I shoot Glocks
I shoot Glocks too, and XD's, Browning and Luger, they are shoot just as straight as each other.

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Old 04-25-2012, 8:49 AM
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Your Combat range is that which you can put a double-tap into the chest area of a silhouette target, followed by an aimed round into the nasal triangle of the head of that target...

...in Two (2) seconds from a ready position.

You should also incorporate a lateral move at the start.

This is the "Mozambique Drill".


Seven yards is a good start, Twenty-Five yards is outstanding.
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Old 04-25-2012, 8:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tal3nt View Post
25 yards..

3 inch grouping (10 rds) on the far target using regular sights from a handgun?! Looks nearly impossible Of course a select few "bullseye shooters" may be able to with relative ease, but I just ain't buying it.
Most good USPSA competition shooters can run 3" groups cold at 25 yards from the holster, and 1" groups easy at 10 yards.
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Old 04-25-2012, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tal3nt View Post
25 yards..
http://www.dayattherange.com/wp-cont...blank-0231.jpg

3 inch grouping (10 rds) on the far target using regular sights from a handgun?! Looks nearly impossible Of course a select few "bullseye shooters" may be able to with relative ease, but I just ain't buying it.

I'm in no way shape or form a "bullseye shooter" but I've shot 2-3" five or 10 shot groups at 25 yards/75 feet with various Glocks, a Les Baer 1911 and my M&P's. The Les Baer did just over 2" with WWB ammo while the polymer guns needed Ranger-T.
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  #39  
Old 04-25-2012, 11:26 AM
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tacticalcity tacticalcity is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugiahua View Post
Frontsight defensive class requires you to fire a controlled pair at center mass at 15 "meter" from holster in 1.5 second.
It is considerably more complicated than that. It's not like you do that one thing and qualify. Their final qualification for the course is pretty much what I posted in my first post (see above). That is an example of the longest shot required in the test, and not the hardest one by any means.

I could not find an exact list of all the shots, distances, drills, and point scale online but I did find this from a review online which helps put it into perspective.

"Finally is the skills test which is comprised of all of the aforementioned skills under strict time and accuracy pressure. I believe the maximum is 125 points and a 70% or greater is required to “graduate” while a 90% is required to earn the title of “distinguished graduate”. A miss on body = -3 points while a miss off body is -5. Being late on any drill is -3 points. Passing is TOUGH as there there are at least 2 dozen individual drills; its possible and many people received a final score of less than zero and most (even those who had been their previously) did not graduate. Unfortunately, I missed distinguished graduate by only 2 just barely late reloads as my mags do not drop free. However, I still graduated with the best score in the class from deep concealment; for that I am very proud."

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...se-review.html

What he does not tell you is that the targets turn so you cannot cheat. Go too slow and that's it. They also mark each shot, so you cannot make up non-fired shots on future turns. Non-fired shots count as a complete miss. When he says being late on any drill is minus three points, he means in addition to any points you loose for missed or non-fired shots. You also loose points for skipping steps in a particular drill or doing it incorrectly in any way. It is an extremely difficult skills test. Extremely difficult.

I've taken the 4 Day Defensive Handgun Course twice. First time I took the course I missed the "Graduate Level" by two points. Six years later I went back and got "Graduate Level" but missed "Distinquished Graduate" by two or three points. Did not help that the last time it was raining so hard it was coming down sideways. Weather was worse than words can describe. But then again in real life bad guys don't just try and kill you on sunny days.

My cousin was on his way to achieving "Distinguished Graduate" level when his last magazine on a round slipped out of his due to the crazy rain and flew forward. He was unable to retrieve it for safety reasons, and he lost enough points on the following drills that he did not even achieve graduate level. That one "slip" totally killed him on points. Needless to say, he lost that trips wager and bought dinner that night in Vegas.

Last edited by tacticalcity; 04-25-2012 at 11:42 AM..
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Old 04-25-2012, 1:34 PM
Lugiahua Lugiahua is offline
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Yes, I watered down the description. I took 4-D just earlier this month, and passed with Graduate. (two points from DG).

Basically there are four phrases.
Phrase 1: Fire controlled pairs from 3, 5, 7, 10 and 15 meter at center mass within 1.5 seconds from a concealed holster.
Phrase 2: Fire controlled pair from 7 and 10 meter line within 1.5 seconds from a concealed holster, then each pair followed by an untimed headshot.
Phrase 3: Fire 5 headshots from 7 and 10 meter line each shot within 1.5 seconds from a concealed holster.
Phrase 4: malfunction and reload test.

I actually have their handbook with scoring chart, maybe I will scan it sometime.

Last edited by Lugiahua; 04-25-2012 at 1:41 PM..
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