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  #1  
Old 04-19-2012, 10:03 PM
Spirit 1 Spirit 1 is offline
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Default FFL to FFL transfer & shipping question

Hi all!

Questions about a sale with a transfer from FFL to FFL, and legal shipping method. Had no idea what to enter into the search engine, and I'd also like the latest info as things do change.

An FFL has a desired revolver and a fella down south wants to buy it. We heard that Turner's may do a transfer of some kind for about $30 or so. What is the approved procedure for such a thing?

Thinking this requires Turners to send a Copy of their FFL License bearing an Original signature to the Seller FFL. The Seller FFL receives money for the revolver, then ships it to Turners, and Turners does all the DROS paperwork and 10 day wait for the customer on their end down there, is that correct?

Also wondering what shipping method is legal or customary to get the handgun from seller point A to Turner's point B? Not sure if some kind of FedEx or Next Day Air, or 2nd Day Air or what method is allowed or best for shipping.

All of this is to be done within California.

Thanks!
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Old 04-20-2012, 3:16 AM
littlejake littlejake is offline
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Who owns the revolver -- the FFL or a client?

Turner's can only accept a shipment from another FFL (dealer or manufacturer) that's been approved through the CA CFLC system. Also, never heard of Turner's doing it for $30 -- more like $155. It's up to the two FFL's to exchange signed licenses. ATF permits a FAXed copy to be used. The revolver must be on the Roster or be Roster exempt to be shipped.

FFL's (i.e. -- dealers) may use the Post Office. Or they will use UPS or Fedex -- and follow their rules (Tariffs); which is typically 2nd day air. it's up to the two FFL's.

The exchange of money is between the actual buyer and seller. Turner's (south) will collect state sales tax on the transfer.

Such a transfer is not a PPT and the fees are unregulated. Further, such a transfer counts toward the 1 in 30 rule for the buyer.

Yes -- Turner's (south) does DROS, form 4473, NICS check and 10 day wait before delivering to ultimate recipient.
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Last edited by littlejake; 04-20-2012 at 5:09 AM..
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  #3  
Old 04-20-2012, 5:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlejake View Post
Who owns the revolver -- the FFL or a client?

Turner's can only accept a shipment from another FFL (dealer or manufacturer) that's been approved through the CA CFLC system. Also, never heard of Turner's doing it for $30 -- more like $155. It's up to the two FFL's to exchange signed licenses. ATF permits a FAXed copy to be used. The revolver must be on the Roster or be Roster exempt to be shipped.

FFL's (i.e. -- dealers may use the Post Office) Or they will use UPS or Fedex -- and follow their rules (Tariffs); which is typically 2nd day air. it's up to the two FFL's.

The exchange of money is between the actual buyer and seller. Turner's (south) will collect state sales tax on the transfer.

Such a transfer is not a PPT and the fees are unregulated. Further, such a transfer counts toward the 1 in 30 rule for the buyer.
Jake hit everything on the nose. You had better triple check with Turners on their fees. Once you find them to be too high look at this site to find a dealer that will do the transfer for a more reasonable fee.

http://www.gunbroker.com/FFL/DealerNetwork.aspx
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Old 04-20-2012, 7:30 AM
Spirit 1 Spirit 1 is offline
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Thanks a whole bunch, guys!

The California FFL who has the Ruger Blackhawk revolver for sale in California purchased and received it from Davidson's new and it's still a new gun now. It was shipped to him by Davidson's. From that I 'assumed' that it's either on roster or roster exempt. He's had it a few years.

Yes, we did know that FFL Licenses can be FAX'd between dealers, thanks. The seller dealer may already be aware of the sheer idiocy of the CFLC System, requiring two FFL Licensed & Authorized CA FFL's to further get permission from DOJ to transfer/ship a firearm and carry out their normal business. Man, never heard of that one, in-n-n-n-sane! No wonder countless droves of folks can't wait to go elsewhere to do business!

So you're saying CA Sales tax is collected twice, once by the dealer that owns the gun based on purchase price when he sells it to purchaser and then it's collected again by Turners who isn't selling the gun or collecting money for the gun? Doesn't sound right.

The fella that's actually buying the gun said that Turners charged $30 for this service to customers but maybe he's confused on their actual fees, thanks for the heads up!!
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Old 04-20-2012, 7:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spirit 1 View Post

So you're saying CA Sales tax is collected twice, once by the dealer that owns the gun based on purchase price when he sells it to purchaser and then it's collected again by Turners who isn't selling the gun or collecting money for the gun? Doesn't sound right.
No, you will only pay the sales tax to the FFL that sells you the firearm. Had it been transferred from out of state than you would be paying the tax to the CA FFL that the gun was transferred too.
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Old 04-20-2012, 7:51 AM
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Thanks for that! I guess I shouldn't be surprised that this is so stupid complicated considering it's dear old California Govomit I speak of...

I really do appreciate all the helpful info, guys! It would have taken days or more to ever find out, if I ever did. I knew I could get the answer here ha! Thanks very much!!!

Last edited by Spirit 1; 04-20-2012 at 7:54 AM..
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  #7  
Old 04-20-2012, 8:08 AM
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Let me try a different angle on this, that is a new brick wall to beat my head against:

Everybody wants to be 100% legal on this sale. The Ruger Blackhawk seller is about 500 miles away from the potential buyer. Buyer doesn't want to make 2 round trips: one 1,000 mile round trip to start sale & DROS process, then another 1,000 mile trip 10 days later to receive the gun. Is there any legal way for the buyer cut out a trip?

Could the DROS be started by him making a trip to FFL and signing all papers in person, showing his personal ID and DOJ HSC Certificate etc. and paying for gun and all fees to FFL seller, then having gun shipped to him when 10 days & DROS is up, instead of having to turn right around and come back again 10 days later in person? Is that method legal??
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Old 04-20-2012, 9:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spirit 1 View Post
Let me try a different angle on this, that is a new brick wall to beat my head against:

Everybody wants to be 100% legal on this sale. The Ruger Blackhawk seller is about 500 miles away from the potential buyer. Buyer doesn't want to make 2 round trips: one 1,000 mile round trip to start sale & DROS process, then another 1,000 mile trip 10 days later to receive the gun. Is there any legal way for the buyer cut out a trip?

Could the DROS be started by him making a trip to FFL and signing all papers in person, showing his personal ID and DOJ HSC Certificate etc. and paying for gun and all fees to FFL seller, then having gun shipped to him when 10 days & DROS is up, instead of having to turn right around and come back again 10 days later in person? Is that method legal??
No. After the 10 day wait, he must again show up in person and re-certify the statements on the form 4473. If the buyer makes two trips, then it's a PPT (Private Party Transfer) and the fees are set by the state at $35 maximum.

BTW -- Since the Ruger Blackhawk is a dimensionally correct (i.e. -- meets minimum barrel and gun length) and is single action, it is exempt from the roster.

Frankly, I'd just pay a local dealer (FFL) to receive the firearm; and pay the extra money. Adding perhaps, $200 to the cost, to me, is worth not having to travel 4000 miles. You can do your own cost-benefit analysis as to which way you wish to handle it.

There is a list of FFLs who will receive firearms for you at http://www.gunbroker.com Some will do it for $75.

You can get a better price for the FFL transfer than what Turner's will charge. Find a local FFL on GB and call or email them.

Sales tax should only be collected at the point of final transfer to the buyer. The northern dealer will likely charge for shipping and perhaps a handling fee. The southern dealer will charge sales tax, DROS, and his FFL transfer fee (that fee is not regulated.)

BTW -- if the handgun were greater than 50 years old (and thus defined as C&R) and the buyer has both a C&R license and a COE, then the 10 day wait is waived and the buyer may take possession when the paperwork is done (i.e. -- one trip.)

One extra point, make certain the FFL who has it now, sends an itemized receipt showing what you payed for the revolver, shipping, fees, and if he charged tax. That is important for the dealer down south to compute any sales tax he might need to collect; and if you had to pay it up north, then he would have proof for the B.O.E. that tax was collected. This sales tax collected by transfer dealers is new. The BOE has threatened them into compliance -- although it has always been the case that the buyer is supposed to report any uncollected sales tax on their state income tax return -- and pay it.
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Last edited by littlejake; 04-20-2012 at 12:57 PM.. Reason: one extra point...
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  #9  
Old 04-20-2012, 9:23 AM
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There are better and cheaper FFLs than Turner's. If you're close enough try EBR Works or Kemesa. Both will be less expensive, quicker ans easier to deal with than Turner's.
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Old 04-20-2012, 9:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlejake View Post
No. After the 10 day wait, he must again show up in person and re-certify the statements on the form 4473. If the buyer makes two trips, then it's a PPT (Private Party Transfer) and the fees are set by the state at $35 maximum.

BTW -- Since the Ruger Blackhawk is a dimensionally correct (i.e. -- meets minimum barrel and gun length) and is single action, it is exempt from the roster.

Frankly, I'd just pay a local dealer (FFL) to receive the firearm; and pay the extra money. Adding perhaps, $200 to the cost, to me, is worth not having to travel 4000 miles. You can do your own cost-benefit analysis as to which way you wish to handle it.

There is a list of FFLs who will receive firearms for you at http://www.gunbroker.com Some will do it for $75.

You can get a better price for the FFL transfer than what Turner's will charge. Find a local FFL on GB and call or email them.

Sales tax should only be collected at the point of final transfer to the buyer. The northern dealer will likely charge for shipping and perhaps a handling fee. The southern dealer will charge sales tax, DROS, and his FFL transfer fee (that fee is not regulated.)

BTW -- if the handgun were greater than 50 years old (and this defined as C&R) and the buyer has both a C&R license and a COE, then the 10 day wait is waived and the buyer may take possession when the paperwork is done (i.e. -- one trip.)
Wow! At first I thought it was just me being thick. No, this stuff is downright stupid for complicated!

The whole thing started when the gun came up for sale at a super price from a local FFL and friend of mine. Another friend, 500 miles away but also in California, wants the gun at that terrific price. All this miscellaneous BS obviously shoots that whole plan right in the foot.

Thanks for the advice, both good news and bad news. It looks like this is going to be complicated and expensive either way, with nobody being happy in the deal except the gun grabber slimeballs. Everybody else loses here. No wonder the seller FFL is closing shop and moving.

Thanks again...
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Old 04-24-2012, 7:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlejake View Post
One extra point, make certain the FFL who has it now, sends an itemized receipt showing what you payed for the revolver, shipping, fees, and if he charged tax. That is important for the dealer down south to compute any sales tax he might need to collect; and if you had to pay it up north, then he would have proof for the B.O.E. that tax was collected. This sales tax collected by transfer dealers is new. The BOE has threatened them into compliance -- although it has always been the case that the buyer is supposed to report any uncollected sales tax on their state income tax return -- and pay it.
Thanks Jake for the explanation. Since the sales tax collection is new, I've one more thing to clarify...

Is it "Required or a must" for the buyer's FFL to collect the final sales tax or alternatively, the buyer himself can report the "uncollected" sales tax during their income tax return under this "new tax law"?

Thanks in advance
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Old 04-24-2012, 10:22 PM
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All businesses in California are to collect appropriate sales tax for merchandise sales in California.
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